ANCFlyer
Topic Author
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US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:36 pm

Continued from here:
US Withdraws Offer For DL (by DeltaFFinDFW Jan 31 2007 in Civil Aviation)
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
JRDC930
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:55 pm

I know ill probably get flamed, but here goes

Call me stupid or naive, but why are so many on this board hellbent on uberconsolidation? Why are there so many here who to limit competition,and create something along a duopoly or triopoly in the aviation business? To me it makes no sense. I understand that ultra low fares can negatively affect the industry, but so can ultra high fares , such as those that would result from consolidation. I detect a tone of elitism amongst those of you saying consolidation"must" happen. I for one do not look forward to a U.S. where only business men can afford to fly. In my OPINION any merger between legacies will be bad, especially for airline employees. But as some have pointed out, who cares about them or the passenger, its all about profit for the creditors right? Again just an observation, im not claiming to be an expert.

I neither love Delta nor hate Delta, but iIdo think any airline employees has a right to have a say in their companies future. (no employees no company)whether you like it or not business has to have some ethical constraints. I dont understand the "screw the employee" attitude by some on this website, regarding aviation. But I'm probably biased as ill be a commercial pilot in a few years.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
smashme33
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:04 pm

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 1):
but why are so many on this board hellbent on uberconsolidation

Don't fret, those are the same people supersizing their fries
 
jmc1975
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:39 pm

Congrats to US on this entire endeavor. Although they did not obtain DL, it goes to show the US is strong and here to stay. It was very well-planned out with the end result being a more respectable public perception and vastly improved unity amongst the US and HP workgroups.
.......
 
ikramerica
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:16 pm

i didn't read all of the 200+ posts, so if this was discussed, I'm sorry, but...

would US be better off bidding for NW instead? better asian network, more complimentary domestic route structure, more compatible fleets (at least the modern jets). US has A320 series, A330 series, 757s. NW has the same. DC9s and 737 classics will need to be replaced eventually, but why that's true either way. NW has 787 on order, US has A350 (old design) on order, but could go 788 without issue and STILL do A350-1000 8 years from now.

do you think parker is going to just give up on the idea of growing through acquisition? I don't think he will...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
WesternA318
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:37 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
would US be better off bidding for NW instead? better asian network, more complimentary domestic route structure, more compatible fleets (at least the modern jets). US has A320 series, A330 series, 757s. NW has the same. DC9s and 737 classics will need to be replaced eventually, but why that's true either way. NW has 787 on order, US has A350 (old design) on order, but could go 788 without issue and STILL do A350-1000 8 years from now.

Aside from the inherent labor problems, it would be a BETTER match than US/DL. I'm all for a CO/AA type merger myself, with CO on top.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
DesertAir
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:50 pm

There is a collective sigh of relief in the airline industry as US withdraws their bid for DL. I am also an anti merger voice. Instead of the time, energy and money that mergers take, carriers should right-size their routes and work towards better service and profitability.

Thanks JRDC930 for your comments.
 
okie73
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 3):
improved unity amongst the US and HP workgroups.

yeah, tell me how unified the work groups are at US once they are actually integrated and the lawsuits start to fly over the seniority lists.
 
b727
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:40 pm

I think it's too bad. Our country has too much capacity. I wish Delta the best, I do love the airline and fly with them every trip I can. I still was pulling for US, I think it would have been a better business plan for all involved.


B727
Glenn
 
PHLBOS
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:29 pm

From the earlier thread:
Quoting Steeler83:
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 173):
For PHL-CVG routes, it's mostly Comair metal and one 737 flight.

I am shocked! Even from an O&D gold mine like PHL they have con-air? What gives???

I'd rather nail a 2X4 to a bicycle and attempt flying that way! Or just fly US and be done with it...


I hate to break the news to you but all 5 of US' PHL-CVG r/ts are Express (ZW) flights.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
HPRamper
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:11 pm

Parker didn't "give up". There was a deadline, DL creditors didn't meet the deadline, so Parker called the deal dead. I have to hand it to him to not be the desperate guy offering loads more money and begging for more time.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1496
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 1):
I know ill probably get flamed, but here goes

Call me stupid or naive, but why are so many on this board hellbent on uberconsolidation? Why are there so many here who to limit competition,and create something along a duopoly or triopoly in the aviation business? To me it makes no sense. I understand that ultra low fares can negatively affect the industry, but so can ultra high fares , such as those that would result from consolidation. I detect a tone of elitism amongst those of you saying consolidation"must" happen. I for one do not look forward to a U.S. where only business men can afford to fly. In my OPINION any merger between legacies will be bad, especially for airline employees. But as some have pointed out, who cares about them or the passenger, its all about profit for the creditors right? Again just an observation, im not claiming to be an expert.

I neither love Delta nor hate Delta, but iIdo think any airline employees has a right to have a say in their companies future. (no employees no company)whether you like it or not business has to have some ethical constraints. I dont understand the "screw the employee" attitude by some on this website, regarding aviation. But I'm probably biased as ill be a commercial pilot in a few years.

Incredible post. Everything I've wanted to say, but couldn't quite put into words. Welcome to my respected users list.
Good goes around!
 
omoo
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:40 pm

Thank god, early Valentines day present.
Fly Air Popobawa
 
ophila
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
would US be better off bidding for NW instead

yes they would have & still could but the game had to be played..if parker goes after nw 1st dl could & more than likely would have tried to marry nw, which for dl would have been very easy. us has shown their strength, they forced dl to play it's cards for the last 3 months further delaying the bk exit, if us would have succeeded with dl sweet, but despite that we went through the holiday season & their was no negative us service conversations in the media.....but back to nw..sweet combo with them & us...ther employees don't have that southern zeal of dl & damn sure will not put up a fight if airways comes knocking, they have said they have no intentions on marrying anyone, but they are in bk, and their creditors may not be as emotionally loyal as the dl people, who by the way still are not out of the woods.....i wish dl the best but..they will have to play that hand of stand alone...
 
panamair
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting Ophila (Reply 13):
they forced dl to play it's cards for the last 3 months further delaying the bk exit,

Actually, DL had always maintained that they were going to shoot for a BK exit in the first half of 2007 (even before US launched the bid publicly on Nov 15). And now, thanks to the hostile bid, DL may even be exiting a tad bit sooner than originally planned...
 
worldtraveler
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:18 am

actually, DL had planned on an early April emergence and that date ended up being pushed back by about 3 weeks due to fighting off US.

JRDC,
you make many great points.

First, there are WAY too many people here that think that the dollar is the final and ultimate authority for how people do and should live their lives - and the more that can be obtained now, the better. This whole affair proved that DL was able to convince the creditors that better is later and that money can't overrule the political process or employees that care about their company.

I know there are a heck of alot of people that can't stand DL employees and their perceived high and mighty attitude but by golly I have a lot of respect for people who care about their company and their jobs. DL employees went through a 10 year drought but anyone that knows this industry knows that DL employees have a long-standing pride in their cmopany that made it the industry leader in customer service for years. Part of DL's turnaround is because its management - lead by Grinstein who is fully aware of DL's people assets - recognized that DL could only return to the top if it took care of its people.

There are way too many Americans that think that they are beholden to their employer and should do whatever they want or leave, regardless if it is bad for the company or the employee. workers in other parts of the world take a much more participatory role in working with management and protecting their interests. There are lots of employees of all kinds of companies that can learn from the commitment DL employees have to their cmopany and their futures - and how it translates into higher job satisfaction and

Whether G and a bunch of other execs developed a strategy 18 months ago to use employees to fight off a potential takeover (which was well known as a risk of filing for BK), we will never know. But we do know that DL has elevated its employees to a level of importance they have not known for years - and they responded very powerfully not only to fight off this hostile takeover but also to raise DL's customer service metrics as very few companies have ever done in BK.

And DL proved that money now is worth nothing to long-term investors in the airline industry if the resulting airline is so likely to end up back in bankruptcy because of the huge debt load that would have been necessary to engage in a hostile takeover of DL.

As for consolidation, yes, it probably needs to take place - but it needs to be done rationally - and it needs to be done when all players are on the same footing. US wanted to move now because NW and DL were the last two airlines to complete this phase of industry restructuring and were at a disadvantage. There were plenty of people - including in Washington - who found it just dead wrong that US - which w/ HP has been through BK 3X - should use its early advantage in moving through the BK process to take over an airline that didn't want to be acquired and was moving through the process later - but by all indications at least as successfully as US or any other airline.

The fact that DL's creditors required it to remove some of the poison pill defenses and to allow them to appoint directors that are supportive of consolidation says it is far more likely than not that DL will be involved in consolidation. However, it is also very likely that DL will be capable of being an acquirer instead of being acquired in a couple years.

The airlines that will be the acquirers will be those that present the most compelling finances and show that they are able to run airlines over the long haul. US has not demonstrated a track record for the long haul. In fact, AA probably has the strongest track record followed by CO. However, based on DL's business plan, DL will have very strong finances and will very quickly be in a position of financial leadership in the industry again. DL knew full well that fililng for BK late in the business cycle meant that it had to work fast in order to catch up - and it has done exactly that.

I still believe that the long-term acquirers in the industry will be AA, CO, and DL with UA and NW being acquired. UA's financial performance is still not where it should be and, although NW will be a strong player financially, it has significant structural limitations for it to be either an acquirer or an independent survivor. Because I dont' think US provides any real value to any acquiring company, I don't see it as a long-term survivors, although it could potentially merge with a true low fare carrier to build on the network/LCC hybrid which US began. I don't see US succeeding at buying a network carrier.

DL and its people won because they built a compelling business case that demonstrated strength for the long haul, because its people supported its mgmt as few have ever done in the airline industry, and because DL was able to find lots of legislative support in an industry where the gov't is always involved - having them on your side can make all the difference.
 
aanyc
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 1):
I neither love Delta nor hate Delta, but iIdo think any airline employees has a right to have a say in their companies future. (no employees no company)whether you like it or not business has to have some ethical constraints. I dont understand the "screw the employee" attitude by some on this website, regarding aviation. But I'm probably biased as ill be a commercial pilot in a few years.

Thank you for your comments. Most people have no idea the passion most of us still have for our jobs. I went through BK with EA and no matter how angry I was at management I still had a soft spot for EA. It is sad to see so many people bashing DL employees for doing all they could to remain a stand alone company. While I may not be the biggest fan of the things AA does I still enjoy my job and working with my fellow flight attendants. My father worked with the same company for 38 years before retirement and was a loyal employee. As it seems from a lot of the comments on this board most people no longer feel that way. It was nice to see the Delta employees show unity, loyalty, and a feeling of family in their support to remain independent . Thank you again for your statement and CONGRATULATIONS to all Delta employees. May they prosper and find much success with Delta in the coming years.
 
D L X
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 14):
And now, thanks to the hostile bid, DL may even be exiting a tad bit sooner than originally planned...

And a little bit more expensive than originally planned too, probably.

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 1):
I neither love Delta nor hate Delta, but iIdo think any airline employees has a right to have a say in their companies future. (no employees no company)whether you like it or not business has to have some ethical constraints. I dont understand the "screw the employee" attitude by some on this website, regarding aviation.

It's not a "screw the employee" attitude - it's a recognition that most in the middle-class don't have nearly the job security that airline workers do. The thing is, airline workers (and a few other select jobs) have an incredible amount of protection. In the rest of the working universe, mergers happen, and the workers either stay or leave. Those that leave find new jobs and life goes on! But airline employees are special. So, I take issue with calling us elitist. I don't think either airline workers nor non-airline workers are elitist, but taking a look at it this way, which group do you think comes closer to actually being elitist?
 
Charliejag1
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
would US be better off bidding for NW instead?

NO! NW has one foot in the toilet. Labor issues on a number of fronts, DC-9s, etc. DL was a good idea, but NW is not!

btw, I work for US.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 14):
Actually, DL had always maintained that they were going to shoot for a BK exit in the first half of 2007 (even before US launched the bid publicly on Nov 15). And now, thanks to the hostile bid, DL may even be exiting a tad bit sooner than originally planned...

An April 30th exit would not surprise me to say the least. Most analysts have pointed out that the best thing for DL to do is put the peddle to the metal now and get out of BK. DL actually did quite a bit of restructuring prior to filing chapter 11, so they are that much further along.
While I thought the idea of DL merging with HP/US was about as bad as it could get, and made absolutely no financial sense, I am a proponent of some consolidation in the industry. I think DL has it in mind that they would like to merge with a carrier like NW within the next year or so. I think Steenland and NW denied the under the table talks with DL largely due to not wanting to have the "For Sale" sign out for Doug Parker to see.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
D L X
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting Aanyc (Reply 16):
It is sad to see so many people bashing DL employees for doing all they could to remain a stand alone company.

Who do you see bashing DL employees? All I see is DL employees behaving badly on here, bashing US on every opportunity they have. Even after the offer was rescinded.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
DL and its people won because they built a compelling business case that demonstrated strength for the long haul, because its people supported its mgmt as few have ever done in the airline industry, and because DL was able to find lots of legislative support in an industry where the gov't is always involved - having them on your side can make all the difference.

This appears to be your most biased-sounding post. Can I ask you, what dog did you have in this fight?
 
ikramerica
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting Charliejag1 (Reply 18):
NO! NW has one foot in the toilet.

One foot in the toilet means the other foot on a solid, tile reinforced floor.

The labor problems at NW are more likely to be resolved under new ownership and new leadership than continuation of their state of affairs.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
LawnDart
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Aanyc (Reply 16):
Thank you for your comments. Most people have no idea the passion most of us still have for our jobs. I went through BK with EA and no matter how angry I was at management I still had a soft spot for EA. It is sad to see so many people bashing DL employees for doing all they could to remain a stand alone company.

Aanyc, thank you for your comments. I've been in the airline industry for over 20 years, and completely agree with your statement about the "passion" most of us still have for our jobs.

I had friends and relatives that were with EA, and it truly was heartbreaking to see them lose their jobs...they loved the airline.

Quoting Aanyc (Reply 16):
CONGRATULATIONS to all Delta employees. May they prosper and find much success with Delta in the coming years.

Thank you for your well wishes, and thanks to everyone on this board who stuck by DL and its employees. I sincerely hope for the best, for DL and for the entire U.S. airline industry...may we all prosper!
 
bobnwa
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 19):
I think Steenland and NW denied the under the table talks with DL largely due to not wanting to have the "For Sale" sign out for Doug Parker to see.

Do you really believe that Doug Parker does not know whether NW and DL are talking.
 
aanyc
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
It's not a "screw the employee" attitude - it's a recognition that most in the middle-class don't have nearly the job security that airline workers do. The thing is, airline workers (and a few other select jobs) have an incredible amount of protection



Quoting D L X (Reply 20):
Who do you see bashing DL employees? All I see is DL employees behaving badly on here, bashing US on every opportunity they have. Even after the offer was rescinded

I must have missed the fact that I have job security. After over 20 years in this business the only thing I have is bidding seniority and I don't even have the credit for part of it as when EA went out of business so did my years of service. Also, tell that to the former Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, and TWA workers that no longer have a job. Also, HP/US still haven't integrated their workforce so who knows what may happen their. This business is so unpredictable, I cant understand where you get the idea that we have job security.

There was a great deal of comments regarding DL employees campaigning on keeping Delta a stand alone company. People stating business is business. Well, as I stated before it is nice to see a group of employees taking pride in their company. Maybe that is whats wrong with American industry these days. When you work for an airline you always think your product is better than your competors. Good for Delta in believing that.
 
steeler83
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 1):
To me it makes no sense. I understand that ultra low fares can negatively affect the industry, but so can ultra high fares , such as those that would result from consolidation.

Oh I completely agree with that. You've made some pretty darned good arguments. I don't like consolidation either. When I think of mergers, I think of "oh crap, we're going back to the days of bad trusts and labor disputes from the pre-Teddy Roosevelt days." Back then, there were monopolies all over the place, resulting in rediculous prices, low pay, etc. Although times then were very different, as the economy was mostly industrial. Now it's mostly a services economy but still, high prices and pay issues would still emerge with unrational consolidation.

I agree that some consolidation needs to occur, but not to the point where we have just one airline, although this will never happen given the laws and everything that are in place thanks to our good buddy Uncle Teddy. Some companies need to merge to reamain competitive against other rival companies. Somebody already posted about rational consolidation, and I think the first merger with the new US, between US and HP, was a good example of that. US was on the verge of collapse, and HP, a stronger airline with a low-cost structure, came along to bail them out. The fleet types were very similar, labor issues not so much, but US is still working with that to make the merger 100%. If not for that merger, US would not have been able to lower its costs, and lower its fares to boost pax numbers, and the airline would have definitely gone belly up within months I am sure...

With Delta, well they were in bankruptcy, but people were talking about DL as if it were on the verge of going belly up the same way US was about to. DL is in much better shape than US was when it was in bankruptcy. For one thing. US' largest hub was nothing more than a money-PIT (no pun intended!!!) For a hub, I think PIT had some of the lowest O&D numbers to sustain a hub. They also had two other hubs/focus cities nearby, with PHL and BWI I believe, but their cost structure was rediculous. Then throw in CLT. That makes four hubs on the East Coast alone, three of them in the same region!

Now let's look at DL, they had 3 major hubs, including the Hartsfield-Jackson Palace at Atlanta. That is Delta's largest hub. How do the O&D numbers look for ATL versus O&D at PIT? They don't compare. PIT's numbers, with under 7 million (at the time of the US bankruptcy) could probably fit in the Atlantic Southeast netowrk alone. The other hubs were in CVG and SLC I believe, oh and DFW. Their network was more spread out and not focused on one region. They also opened a new hub in JFK and closed the one in DFW. JFK is prime for international growth to Europe as well as for domestic O&D; Rain Man could tell anyone that. DL is rapidly expanding international service, because domestic doesn't produce the kinds of profits that international routes can produce. When planned from the right locations for gateways, (JFK, ATL, etc...) they can be big time money makers.

DL is also improving its product as well as some of its facilities. How about the upgrades it did with ATL, and aren't they upgrading the interiors of their fleets as well? I thought I read on another thread that they were... I could go on and on about this but I don't want to bore anyone on here. I am sure I probably already have. Sorry in advance!

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 5):
I'm all for a CO/AA type merger myself, with CO on top.

I don't think CO will be merging with anyone, there is another thread on here, "No merger; CAL to expand CLE"
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
wingnut767
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 11):
I neither love Delta nor hate Delta, but iIdo think any airline employees has a right to have a say in their companies future. (no employees no company)whether you like it or not business has to have some ethical constraints. I dont understand the "screw the employee" attitude by some on this website, regarding aviation. But I'm probably biased as ill be a commercial pilot in a few years.

Incredible post. Everything I've wanted to say, but couldn't quite put into words. Welcome to my respected users list.

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Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
It's not a "screw the employee" attitude - it's a recognition that most in the middle-class don't have nearly the job security that airline workers do. The thing is, airline workers (and a few other select jobs) have an incredible amount of protection. In the rest of the working universe, mergers happen, and the workers either stay or leave. Those that leave find new jobs and life goes on! But airline employees are special. So, I take issue with calling us elitist. I don't think either airline workers nor non-airline workers are elitist, but taking a look at it this way, which group do you think comes closer to actually being elitist?

Protection my A$$. In the 10+ years since I left the Military I have had one Airline go BK and lay me off (Transmeridian), a second force pay cuts then layoff (American), after that a third hire me then call the day before I started to say not to come in because they where going to BK (ATA). I am now with CAL and I am sick and tired of all of the Airline CEO wannabees on this site who think that they know what is better for the airlines and the employees. Or that they want consolidation so that it would benefit them better on flights even though it would mean layoffs and paycuts for employees. And then to tell us employees to be quiet and stop whining and to be thankfull that we have a job or to change careers. If you do not have a dog in the hunt keep your nose out of it and shut the hell up.
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
william
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:30 am

My,my.........back in November when US started this process many on here wandered why DL and not NWA. Then we were given all kind of excuses of why NWA was not a good purchase..............and NOW,lo and behold NWA is a better purchase now............MAKE UP YOUR MINDS or stop spinning.

As regards consolidation,it will not work. SWA, JB,and Airtran are not going to let legacy just slash capacity without responding themselves. If that was the case,US could shrink at Charlotte and let SWA have ten gates..............then you will see how "shrinking capacity" does not work when there is strong demand.
 
mah584jr
Posts: 422
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
would US be better off bidding for NW instead?

US would be better served not bidding for anybody. One bid for a merger was pretty entertaining, but if US does it again its just old news. US should continue to work on what's currently in front of them.
 
surfdog75
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:39 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 26):
Or that they want consolidation so that it would benefit them better on flights even though it would mean layoffs and paycuts for employees. And then to tell us employees to be quiet and stop whining and to be thankfull that we have a job or to change careers. If you do not have a dog in the hunt keep your nose out of it and shut the hell up.

Good point. Any airline employee that wants his company involved in a merger either works for company that needs saving or is a complete fool.
 
D L X
Posts: 11629
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Aanyc (Reply 24):
I must have missed the fact that I have job security.

This is exactly my point. I'm not saying things over in your industry are perfect, but you seem out of touch with the rest of the world's workers. You DO have job security on a level much greater than other workers. People get fired, cut, laid-off, etc. all the time. There comparatively aren't many of us who can expect to have the same job for 20 years. I'm not knocking you guys, but I think some perspective is in order.

Quoting Aanyc (Reply 24):
After over 20 years in this business the only thing I have is bidding seniority

That's more than I will have in 20 years, that's for sure.

Quoting Aanyc (Reply 24):
Also, tell that to the former Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, and TWA workers that no longer have a job.

I never said that airline employees have perfect job security! But tell me, how many of those employees are still unemployed? If they're still unemployed, then shame on them, quite honestly. My guess is most of those people landed on their feet (eventually) and many with other airlines.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 26):
Protection my A$$. In the 10+ years since I left the Military I have had one Airline go BK and lay me off (Transmeridian), a second force pay cuts then layoff (American), after that a third hire me then call the day before I started to say not to come in because they where going to BK (ATA). I am now with CAL and I am sick and tired of all of the Airline CEO wannabees on this site who think that they know what is better for the airlines and the employees.

I've had that many jobs in fewer years. So have my friends, so have my relatives. My roommate had been laid off 3 times in 3 years. Often times, he was "replaced" by having his job sent to India. Others have their jobs sent to Mexico or China. This is quickly getting off topic, so this will be my last post on this, but people need to realize that many dream of the security that airline employees have.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 26):
If you do not have a dog in the hunt keep your nose out of it and shut the hell up.

That's a great attitude. What airline do you work for now?
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting William (Reply 27):
Then we were given all kind of excuses of why NWA was not a good purchase..............and NOW,lo and behold NWA is a better purchase now............MAKE UP YOUR MINDS or stop spinning.

So every person on a.net can be consolidated into one mega voice?

Give me a break. Because you may have thought you read a few people say DL was a better choice than NW and read some people (do you remember who?) say that NW was a bad choice, that means that everyone believes that and discussing anything else is spinning?

Before accusing people of anything, why not find who said what. Then, if you see those people spinning things, attack them if you wish. Otherwise, you sound like the spinner...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
USairways16BWI
Posts: 921
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 28):
US should continue to work on what's currently in front of them.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

I am very happy this merger did not go through. U know, its not just the Delta fans that didnt want this. As i said in another post some time ago, US just got over many of its "messes", and they are starting a huge turnaround for the better...why mess things up by merging with DL. US should focus on their own issues and continue to prosper, once an airline in BK(more than once), now making huge profits.

I have no problem with DL at all. My first transcon, and my first widebody flights was on DL, and id hate to see anything really bad to happen to them. But its just another airline in BK that we all have to wish the best for. DL will pull through, just might take a while.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
 
cubastar
Posts: 312
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
But tell me, how many of those employees are still unemployed? If they're still unemployed, then shame on them, quite honestly. My guess is most of those people landed on their feet (eventually) and many with other airlines.



Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
I've had that many jobs in fewer years.

From your profile you are a lawyer and are relatively young. A good many people with airlines (particularly pilots) have been in a position with an airline for quite a few years and then have had it all lost quickly. My guess is that many of those who lost their jobs may still be employed in the aviation field but now are at the bottom of the totem pole in an industry that, good or bad, relies on seniority for advancement. With scheduled airlines here in the United States that means that you could be a former captain and now find yourself flying in another job as a very junior first officer with much lower wages, and poorer working conditions. Pilots do not have the advantage of cross transferring to the same position with another airline that other professions sometimes enjoy. In many fields of employment, an individual who has had the good fortune, through hard work and initiative, to move up in a company and consequently enjoy a great salary and other perks might be wooed by another company in the same field and he/she would lose nothing and would advance upward in salary and esteem. In your field, I suspect that one day that may be the case with you. I would hope that in the meantime, you would develop a sense of compassion for your fellow man and not be quite so judgemental until you have "walked in their shoes".
 
D L X
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Cubastar (Reply 34):
I would hope that in the meantime, you would develop a sense of compassion for your fellow man and not be quite so judgemental until you have "walked in their shoes".

I think you're taking me out of context. I'm certainly not uncompassionate for my fellow man. I'm trying to point out that the average joe (which I may not be) is not so lucky as others. Many can only dream about a job in the aviation field. Personalizing it to me loses the point. (For one, this is my second career. I went back to school when I couldn't get a job in the field I went to college for. How's that for suckiness? Many of my coworkers are still unemployed or had to switch fields completely.)

I think if anyone thought about it, they'd realize that airline jobs offer quite a bit more than many other professions. You could list them.
 
risingphoenix
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:04 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
This is exactly my point. I'm not saying things over in your industry are perfect, but you seem out of touch with the rest of the world's workers. You DO have job security on a level much greater than other workers. People get fired, cut, laid-off, etc. all the time.

And we, as airline workers don't? Do you even know any airline employees? If you did, you would know more have been furloughed or cut because of their company's problems than not.

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
There comparatively aren't many of us who can expect to have the same job for 20 years.

Amd neither can the majority of airline workers. The ones that have 20+ years are the lucky minority.

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
Quoting Aanyc (Reply 24):
After over 20 years in this business the only thing I have is bidding seniority

That's more than I will have in 20 years, that's for sure.

What exactly do you do for a living? If you can't even get a day or two off that you need in 20 years, what are you doing there? That's not much to ask for. And, by the way, bidding seniority doesn't mean you get all the days and holidays off you want. It only means you might have a chance. In the airline business, you might not get Christmas off for 20 years.

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
never said that airline employees have perfect job security! But tell me, how many of those employees are still unemployed? If they're still unemployed, then shame on them, quite honestly

So the mere fact they are capable of getting another job makes it all hunky-dory?

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
My guess is most of those people landed on their feet (eventually) and many with other airlines

How is this different than most employees with other industries? Airline workers are the only ones that gain comparable reemployment?

So that's what it all comes down to? Misguided jealousy? You think that perhaps airline employees have something you don't, so they should just be thankful they are not on the street? They have no right to pride in their company or loyalty after that?
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4465
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 25):
I don't think CO will be merging with anyone, there is another thread on here, "No merger; CAL to expand CLE"

Never said they were. Just saying if we had to merge with ANYONE, I'd rather it be AA.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
This whole affair proved that DL was able to convince the creditors that better is later and that money can't overrule the political process or employees that care about their company.

You're reading far too much into the creditors' decision, WorldTraveler. The creditors have no duty to -- and my bet would be no concern for -- the employees that care for the company. The decision was that with that they could live with the concessions made by DL. To make a humanitarian case is to deny the rationale for the creditors having a voice at the table to begin with. They want their money.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
The fact that DL's creditors required it to remove some of the poison pill defenses and to allow them to appoint directors that are supportive of consolidation says it is far more likely than not that DL will be involved in consolidation. However, it is also very likely that DL will be capable of being an acquirer instead of being acquired in a couple years.

Just because you're an acquirer doesn't make you strong. HP acquired US, but its finances were a mess when it happened and it was widely held that Doug Parker had to make the merger work because there weren't many options for HP otherwise. The same thing happened with Pan Am and National -- it was not out of a position of strength.

In any case, the fact that the poison pill disappears makes it far more likely that DL will end up on the acquired side of the equation. The sole reason for the poison pill is to prevent a hostile takeover.

Quoting DesertAir (Reply 6):
There is a collective sigh of relief in the airline industry as US withdraws their bid for DL. I am also an anti merger voice. Instead of the time, energy and money that mergers take, carriers should right-size their routes and work towards better service and profitability.

I wouldn't relax quite yet, DesertAir. there are lots of other combinations that could come to pass.
 
D L X
Posts: 11629
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RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:01 am

Risingphoenix, you took my post completely out of context. I'm not putting down airline workers. I was responding to someone who was implying that everyone has a "screw the airline employee" mentality and that airlines should be beholden to their employees.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
And a little bit more expensive than originally planned too, probably.

actually, no. DL certainly incurred some addiitional costs fighting off US but their BK will still come out much less costly than UA's which is the closest size competitor to file in the past 5 years. Also, DL has done a remarkable job of controlling costs and its balance sheet. The few million dollars they spent fighting off US can easiliy be recovered in a summer of strong performance. They'll undoubtedly do it in 3 months.

Quoting D L X (Reply 20):
Can I ask you, what dog did you have in this fight?

I have been fascinated by DL for well over 30 years. I've flown other airlines and known their people and know there is a difference between DL and the rest. They have earned my respect many times over the years and they still have it.
 
ophila
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 3:12 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:08 am

US Airways may not be done shopping for mergers
That's according to the Los Angeles Times (free registration), which writes: "US Airways, meanwhile, is expected to continue to seek out a partner despite Chief Executive Doug Parker's statement Wednesday that he was 'extremely confident in our own stand-alone plan.' " Also taking a look at what US Airways' next move might be is The Arizona Republic. "The wild card on the minds of union leaders, frequent fliers and others in the industry: whether US Airways will go after another airline or possibly be the target of a takeover offer. Parker's appetite to get bigger was glaring with the bold Delta bid, and he is seen as a poster boy for industry consolidation," the paper writes about its hometown airline.

The Republic says speculation has already started about who US Airways could seek as a new partner -– or about if the airline really will choose to sit this round out as a standalone carrier. But the paper adds that "one analyst's take is sure to unsettle those who are relieved the Delta deal is done: a US Airways/United pairing." In a research report, Prudential Equity analyst Bob McAdoo writes: "Perhaps United may approach US Airways later this year." And, of course, the speculation about US Airways' move is also in contrast with the expectation of many industry observers that merger mania may stall -- at least briefly -- in the wake of the failed bid for Delta (see story below). Stay tuned ...

Posted at 09:31 AM/ET, Feb 01, 2007 in US Airways, United | Permalink | Comments (6) TrackBack (0)
 
D L X
Posts: 11629
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 40):
actually, no. DL certainly incurred some addiitional costs fighting off US but their BK will still come out much less costly than UA's which is the closest size competitor to file in the past 5 years.

They also had to raise their proposed value beyond US's offer to stay independent. Their proposed valuation is now quite a bit higher than UA and AA, if i'm not mistaken. So, how can you say that the US offer didn't make the DL exit more expensive?
 
okie73
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
Their proposed valuation is now quite a bit higher than UA and AA, if i'm not mistaken. So, how can you say that the US offer didn't make the DL exit more expensive?

I bought my house for 250,000. It's current market value is maybe 350,000. I can try to list it for 400,000, and tell people I think its worth 400,000.....I may even sell it for 400,000. Doesn't mean I have iput any more money in this house, nor will I have too, despite what "value" I place on it.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 10):
DL creditors didn't meet the deadline

Probably on purpuse as to why maybe because they didn't want to? Just something to consider.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
wingnut767
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:50 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
That's a great attitude. What airline do you work for now?

I enjoy the company that I work for now (CAL). I have a great attitude at work and when I have to interract with the passengers I have one then also. My job is to give the aircrew and passenger the best and safest plane possible. When some Joe Airline employee wannabee tells me that our company would be better off merging then I have an attitude. Especially if they want the merger because it might provide them with better flights. Great you will not have to connect in CLE anymore but 10,000 people are scrambling for new jobs. The mood at CAL is overall positive from the top to the bottom and it is moving in the right direction.


My attitude is reserved for the people who who have no vested interest in these companies and who come out and say that the mergers would be great. It is the same if Ford and Chevy wanted to merge. Who would I be to say that it should happen or not. It is none of my business especially knowing that said merger would result in layoffs at all levels. I would not go on a car site and say it sounds great to me. Unless I am vested in it financially as a employee, distibutor or as shareholder who am I to say what they should do. And do they really care about your opinion.
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
william
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 32):

Did I strike a nerve Ik or was truth a little to close to home.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18100
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
DL and its people won because they built a compelling business case that demonstrated strength for the long haul,

I think it is more probable that Delta "won" (whatever that means) because Mr. Grinstein called in his many, many markers, accumulated over the years.

If the business case was so compelling, one wonders why the unsecured creditors not "compelled".

???

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
risingphoenix
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:04 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:35 am

My apologies D L X for taking your comments out of context.

On another note, a point that I really want to get across is-- yes, I'm sure the employees were not a factor in the creditors' decision per se, but they are considered an "intangible asset"- and there are situations when intangible assets are assigned a "value". And sometimes that value can be a multiplier to the tangible assets.
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:40 am

As I mentioned yesterday I booked two airline tickets for my business travel next week. 2 trips I would usually make on Delta. It felt really good NOT booking on Delta so that the obnoxious, overbearing DL'ers on this site won't see a portion of the $ 1500 in airfare I purchased. I'm happily giving it to US and CO respectively and will smile inside the whole time. Will this affect DL in anyway? Naw, but it still feels good knowing you have the ultimate choice in who gets your money. You can keep Delta your Delta I'm flying US/CO now instead.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
william
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

RE: US Withdraws Offer For DL, II

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:43 am

Before we talk about US looking for another partner, I think Mr. Parker will have his hands full with next round of labor talks.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070201/dcth057.html?.v=73

The good thing about a 500 million net profit is that Wall Street rewards you with a higher stock price(which in turn allows to finance or refinance cheaper),the bad,the union leaders can read too..............and they want some of it.

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