Cactus742
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Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:47 am

When Midwest expands, it seems like the 6-abreast planes may not be economical enough for signature service. How would an E190 in signature service three-abreast suit Midwest's needs?
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EvilForce
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:27 am

6 abreast can easily be made 5 abreast, giving each remaining 5 seats an additional 3 1/2" in width. A 20 1/2" seat seems ok by me.
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JBo
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:32 am

Chances are when Midwest orders new a/c they will not be a single-cabin arrangement. The replacement aircraft will likely feature a mix of signature and saver-style seating (but probably all leather, as will be done to the MD80 fleet).

That is, unless they figure they can make a decent profit on a fully-signature 737 or A320, but I doubt that'd work out.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
How would an E190 in signature service three-abreast suit Midwest's needs?

The 170 family actually offer wider seats than most other aircraft (typically 18.5 inches). They could just go to that for Signature and leave it at 4-abreast. 3 abreast would probably not be very economical.
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Midex717
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:36 am

Midwest Airlines is looking at either the B737-800 or the A320. I hope its the B737-800.
 
sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
When Midwest expands, it seems like the 6-abreast planes may not be economical enough for signature service. How would an E190 in signature service three-abreast suit Midwest's needs?

Like it was already posted if and when Midwest buys new planes for expansion and MD-80 replacement it will be 320s or 737-800s. They want a plane to carry more people farther. It will not be used for signature service except for probably a few rows in front. The rest will be 3X3 with maybe a little more leg room or something like that.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:53 am

The 320 and 73G families are not a suitable 712 replacement. When those leave the fleet, they'll have to replace them with something E-Jet sized.
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sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
The 320 and 73G families are not a suitable 712 replacement. When those leave the fleet, they'll have to replace them with something E-Jet sized.

That is true but the first one turns 4 this month. That will be a long way off. Right now the focus is on MD-80 replacements.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 7):

That is true but the first one turns 4 this month. That will be a long way off. Right now the focus is on MD-80 replacements.

Certainly, but it's not inconceivable that they'll also want some growth in the ~90 seat size range.
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sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:26 pm

Yes some day they will need to replace the 717 but I'm sure that is not even being looked at right now. Who even knows what planes will be available in 10-15 years when they get rid of them. Might be something brand new to choose from.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:30 pm

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 9):
Yes some day they will need to replace the 717 but I'm sure that is not even being looked at right now. Who even knows what planes will be available in 10-15 years when they get rid of them. Might be something brand new to choose from.

Why do you assume that they won't want any more 90 seaters until the 712s leave the fleet?
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sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
Why do you assume that they won't want any more 90 seaters until the 712s leave the fleet?

The CEO has stated that whatever new aircraft we buy will be to replace the -80's and will be our growth airplane going forward. His words not mine. He has never said anything about new or additional 90 seaters.

Getting new airplanes into the fleet is an extremely expensive undertaking when you consider all that goes into it. We are still spending money buying spares for the 717s and we've had them for four years now. YX will be busy integrating the 737/320's into the fleet for the foreseeable future.
 
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JBo
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:21 pm

For an airline of Midwest's size, 25 717s is plenty for that size of aircraft for now.

Keeping in mind that those 717s are direct descendants of the DC-9, they could very well be in the air 35 years from now.
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deltadawg
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 12):
For an airline of Midwest's size, 25 717s is plenty for that size of aircraft for now.

Yes it is, except when you have to convince your stockholders that growth and expansiopn is key to stock value and that the company is going to add new cities and route expansion. Then you have to have new aircraft - and since there is no more 712's they will have to bring in a new a/c and totally change their fleet makeup over the next 5-10 years.

I could see a E190/195 for Signature Service (if it stays alive) and 737/8 or 319/20 for everything else. All this is dependant upon what happens with FL.

Just my .02
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TedEx
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
How would an E190 in signature service three-abreast suit Midwest's needs?

Are the E-jets even available in three abreast seating? These planes are great in 2x2 and probably wouldn't need much extra, maybe just elimimate a row and give a little extra pitch throughout the cabin.. maybe even an E195? B6 runs E190s with 32 or 33 inches of pitch. Remove a row or two and have a little more.

I think the E-series would look great in YX colors.
 
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mke717spotter
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:03 pm

Nothing to big, but yesterday YX announced RSW is going year round from Seasonal and also some enhancement to SFO.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting TedEx (Reply 14):
Are the E-jets even available in three abreast seating?

UA ExPlus has 2 rows of 3-abreast F...
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sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:43 am

Remember that the CRJ's are going to take the place of some 717's on certain routes so that will free them up for some expansion. Not saying that is the best choice but it certainly is the cheapest and fastest way for YX to add any new aircraft.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 12):
Keeping in mind that those 717s are direct descendants of the DC-9, they could very well be in the air 35 years from now.

Interestingly, though, this may be an area in which the fates of FL and YX are intertwined (even without the merger). Though YX's 717s are pretty low-cycle compared to the NW -9s (which fly routes like MBS-DTW and MEM-BNA), I think once either FL or YX gets rid of the 717, it may not be economical for the other to hang on to them. Just speculation on my part, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out down the road.
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PavlovsDog
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:52 am

Although highly unlikely the Sukhoi Superjet 100 series is 5-abreast. I think the sizes are 60, 75 and 95 seaters. I imagine it might be possible that a second wing will be developed and 115 and 135 seaters could come to fruition. One single aircraft family could conceivably meet all of Midwest's current needs. Range is plenty for them too.

I expect they are relatively inexpensive to purchase since they're very eager to get a Western customer. Support and reliablity are huge question marks.
 
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deltadawg
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:05 am

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 19):
Although highly unlikely the Sukhoi Superjet 100 series is 5-abreast. I think the sizes are 60, 75 and 95 seaters. I imagine it might be possible that a second wing will be developed and 115 and 135 seaters could come to fruition. One single aircraft family could conceivably meet all of Midwest's current needs. Range is plenty for them too.

I expect they are relatively inexpensive to purchase since they're very eager to get a Western customer. Support and reliablity are huge question marks.

From what I have seen of the Sukhoi 100 it seems that they either bought or stole the plans to the Dornier 728 program. Prototype looks to be identical to the original 728. They would have to find a partner in the west to support it to have any chance of selling any.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 20):
Prototype looks to be identical to the original 728.

And that is conclusive evidence of corporate espionage?

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 20):
They would have to find a partner in the west to support it to have any chance of selling any.

Sukhoi has done exactly that. Here's a hint who they have partnered with:

it starts with a "B" and ends with "-OEING."
 
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deltadawg
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 21):
And that is conclusive evidence of corporate espionage?

As I said, "either bought or stole"

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 21):
Sukhoi has done exactly that. Here's a hint who they have partnered with:

it starts with a "B" and ends with "-OEING."

A partner Boeing has not made itself! It has been a consultant on the design but not a partner, a consultant - someone who is paid for advise! A partner is someone that has a vested interest and supports a product via business interest. Show me where Boeing has signed on to support the sales and maintenance effort behind it - oh, that's right, they haven't! Hmmm!
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 22):
As I said, "either bought or stole"

Well, we know that Sukhoi did not buy the rights to the FD.728 so that only leaves your forgone conclusion that Sukhoi stole the design...

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 22):
A partner Boeing has not made itself!

Says Yoda?

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 22):
Show me where Boeing has signed on to support the sales and maintenance effort behind it - oh, that's right, they haven't! Hmmm!

Wow, you really couldn't have picked any better words:

Boeing president for Russia Sergei Kravchenko says the US manufacturer will support the RRJ project using its international sales and support network, and help with certification to US Federal Aviation Administration and European Joint Aviation Authorities standards.

RRJ project takes shape as Sukhoi commits funding
 
SNATH
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
The 170 family actually offer wider seats than most other aircraft (typically 18.5 inches). They could just go to that for Signature and leave it at 4-abreast.

Well, I've only seen pictures of their cabin but Midwest seem to have some extra space between the seats for a drinks table or something like that. They would not be able to keep that in the E-jets with a 4-abreast config I don't think...

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
UA ExPlus has 2 rows of 3-abreast F...

AC's E-jets have 3 rows of 3-abreast F too.


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Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 19):
Although highly unlikely the Sukhoi Superjet 100 series is 5-abreast.

C-series too!

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 23):
Says Yoda?

 rotfl 

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jmc1975
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:51 am

Midwest needs to do away with the Saver Service and go back to their roots of 2x2 Signature service exclusively. It's what made Midwest stand out from the rest as they fulfilled a market niche. If they can't do that, then they're best off combining with AirTran which operates 717s and 73Gs, making them a strong and viable LCC with competitive pricing power.

[Edited 2007-02-02 22:55:48]
.......
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 20):
From what I have seen of the Sukhoi 100 it seems that they either bought or stole the plans to the Dornier 728 program. Prototype looks to be identical to the original 728.

And who did the Russians steal the Sputnik design from?

I'm sorry the the Russians are quite capable engineers. It is possible that they "stole" the designs of the Fairchild but then why did it take them so long to bring it to market?

The first rule of getting your ass kicked in business is to underestimate your competition. The Russians have the smarts and now, thanks to oil revenues, they have the money. There's a good reason they were an Imperial global power before. Underestimate them at your own risk.
 
sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 25):
Midwest needs to do away with the Saver Service and go back to their roots of 2x2 Signature service exclusively.

As much as we would all love that it will never happen. You can not make any money flying 116 people to LAS or MCO on an MD-80. Throw in the extra 31 seats and now you can. People will not pay enough to go to the leisure destinations to make up the difference anymore.
I think Midwest is closer to losing the Signature service than they are losing the Saver, but I think that is a long way off also.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 26):
And who did the Russians steal the Sputnik design from?

The Germans ??  eyebrow 
 
jmc1975
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:30 pm

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 27):
As much as we would all love that it will never happen. You can not make any money flying 116 people to LAS or MCO on an MD-80. Throw in the extra 31 seats and now you can. People will not pay enough to go to the leisure destinations to make up the difference anymore.
I think Midwest is closer to losing the Signature service than they are losing the Saver, but I think that is a long way off also.

 checkmark  That's the primary reason an AirTran/Midwest merger makes so much sense. Besides, what kind of airline sees a successful future by acquiring just a couple of MD-80s? Unfortunately, Midwest's glory days of fulfilling the premium product niche are over.
.......
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting SNATH (Reply 24):
Well, I've only seen pictures of their cabin but Midwest seem to have some extra space between the seats for a drinks table or something like that. They would not be able to keep that in the E-jets with a 4-abreast config I don't think...

This picture gives you a pretty good idea


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Photo © Sam Chui



There's more space than in a traditional Y seat but not the full table that domestic F seats give. I don't think that would work in an E-jet but I'm not sure. They could sacrifice some seat width for it, I guess.
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sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 29):
Besides, what kind of airline sees a successful future by acquiring just a couple of MD-80s?

Allegiant???  Wink

Everyone knows by now that the 2 new -88's are not a long term thing but are only being obtained to add some much needed longer haul capability. It has been announced enough times that Midwest is in the final stages of choosing their new airplanes. Unfortunately that final stage could take 6 months but it will be done. I know that's not fast enough for most people but that is how they do things. Slow and carefully.

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 29):
Midwest's glory days of fulfilling the premium product niche are over.

Well this debate will continue as long as Midwest has signature service. Some people believe in it and some do not. Obviously the management of Midwest knows if it is profitable or not. None of us can say that. So it really is just speculation. Obviously the customers love it.

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 29):
That's the primary reason an AirTran/Midwest merger makes so much sense.

There is no reason, from a Midwest standpoint, for this merger. It will only benefit AirTran. Hence the reason it is so one sided.
 
TedEx
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RE: Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
UA ExPlus has 2 rows of 3-abreast F...

My mistake, Cactus742 said three abreast and for some reason I was thinking five abreast. :/ I've flown on many E170s with three abreast F seats.

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