FlyingDove
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Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:57 am

From an AP article in the Jerusalem Post, of all places...

"US President George W. Bush will propose giving $2 billion (€1.5 billion) in tax incentives toward building a rail link between lower Manhattan and John F. Kennedy Airport, US Senator Charles Schumer said Thursday..."

For the rest of the article, use this URL:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Is this the push that's needed to make this rail line a reality?
 
SP90
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Flyingdove (Thread starter):
a rail link between lower Manhattan and John F. Kennedy Airport

I thought we already have this, it's called the A train...  Confused

Where on Earth are they going to find a place to put the station in lower Manhattan?
 
NYC777
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting SP90 (Reply 1):
I thought we already have this, it's called the A train...

Where on Earth are they going to find a place to put the station in lower Manhattan?

I'd rather take a taxi through the LIE to JFK than the A Train. It's terrible! Thanks god that there is some movement to bring a one seat ride from JFK into Manhattan. I like the Heathrow Express and I wished we had something like it in NYC!

The station would go in the new transit hub being built at Fulton Street in Lower Manahattan
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
FlyingDove
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:19 am

Quoting SP90 (Reply 1):
I thought we already have this, it's called the A train...



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
Thanks god that there is some movement to bring a one seat ride from JFK into Manhattan.

I agree, unfortunately, that the A train works well but isn't going to attract anyone who can afford a cab - it's just too slow. The problem with cabs, of course, is traffic. And I don't think the new US Helicopter service (now to JFK and EWR) is going to start carrying thousands of people per day any time soon. Therefore, the rail link could be a great alternative... It works great when I travel to EWR from Penn Station.

It's interesting that there was a time when the Metropolitan Transit Authority ran a JFK super express subway train to and from Midtown Manhattan.
 
ORDagent
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:21 am

It's a nice diversion for the prez to float to avoid real issues but for once I agree with him. I became a B6 fan when I flew them ord-jfk. My sister lives in Brooklyn and a fast link to lower Manhattan would make it easier to get to Brooklyn .
 
EvilForce
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:23 am

The A train sucks. Sorry.

I would love to see the rail link. I'm a firm believer in rail/air service links. I love flying into Boston, working all day, catching the train to NYC from Back Bay, and arriving in Penn Station.

Make transportation networks work!
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
Mir
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
I like the Heathrow Express and I wished we had something like it in NYC!

It's called the Long Island Rail Road. Granted, one has to take AirTrain to get to it, but the involved hassle is about as much as it is to get from the terminals to the Heathrow Express at LHR.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 4):
It's a nice diversion for the prez to float to avoid real issues

You couldn't make your point without this off-topic flamebait? boggled 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
deltairlines
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:30 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
It's called the Long Island Rail Road. Granted, one has to take AirTrain to get to it, but the involved hassle is about as much as it is to get from the terminals to the Heathrow Express at LHR.

Still, much difference between LIRR and Heathrow Express. Heathrow Express gets you into London twice as fast (15 minutes; takes about 25 minutes from Jamaica plus about 7 minutes on AirTrain), a change of trains is required (at least Heathrow Express is a one-seat ride; AirTran is change trains at Jamaica), and getting to the AirTrain stations at JFK can be quite a bit of hassle (only one that's done well in my opinion is T4). Only thing LIRR has going for it is that it's a lot cheaper than Heathrow Express.
 
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STT757
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:30 am

This comitment has been pushed for by Pataki and Schumer since 2002, the problem is that Pataki is gone now and Spitzer did not include the Lower Manhattan rail link into his transportation plan. The $2 Billion from the Feds is only a small part of the $7 Billion needed to build this tunnel, with the MTA struggling to find funding for more important projects such as the Second Avenue Subway ($14 Billion), LIRR's East Side Access ($6-7 Billion), 7 train extension to the West Side ($3 Billion), Tappan Zee Bridge Replacement ($5 Billion) this project may never be built unless the Feds contributed significantly more than $2 Billion.

Elliot Spitzer is not going to put another bond issue before voters to approve $5 Billion towards a project who would mostly benefit out of State visitors at the detriment of City/Suburban commuters. The high range estimate for the Lower Manhattan rail link is 10,000, that's a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of riders the Second Avenue Subway would see on a daily basis.

The Port Authority recently pledged $2 Billion to NY for NY to put towards one of their transportation projects, it's going towards ESA or SAS not the Lower Manhattan rail link. New Jersey received a similar $2 Billion Dollar pledge which is going towards NJ Transit's new Hudson tunnels.

A much better link for Lower Manhattan is the PATH link to EWR, the PATH line is 1.5 miles from the Newark Airport rail link station. The estimates to extend PATH service on the World Trade Center line to EWR is $550 Million, a bargain compared to other transportation projects in the area.

My point, while significant this announcement is neither unexpected or does it make any connection to JFK and Lower Manhattan any more likely, the problem has never been getting the $2 Billion from the Feds, the problem always has been coming up with the other $5 Billion.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
flyibaby
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:31 am

I bet the project could be done alot faster and cheaper if they convinced ABC to bring in theri Extreme Makeover Home Edition crews to build the rail in two weeks ....

ok seriously, that was just a joke...  Smile
 
EvilForce
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 7):
You couldn't make your point without this off-topic flamebait?  

Well he is an idiot.  Wink

But seriously we do need decent transportation options in this country besides only roads and airports. Tying airports and rail / mass transit hubs together makes for high useage.

Whoever was the dimbat that stopped the light rail 2 miles short of Sea-Tac should be shot.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
flyibaby
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 11):
Whoever was the dimbat that stopped the light rail 2 miles short of Sea-Tac should be shot.

That surprised me too. Washington state is very liberal, and green at that. Most major employers such as Boeing and Alaska Airlines offer their employees reduced mass transit passes, so you would have thought they would have pushed for the extension too.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 11):
But seriously we do need decent transportation options in this country besides only roads and airports. Tying airports and rail / mass transit hubs together makes for high useage.

Whoever was the dimbat that stopped the light rail 2 miles short of Sea-Tac should be shot

We're still waiting for DART to serve DFW after all these years. IIRC the current plan has a link in place by 2014! It boggles the mind to see that connecting the airport is so far down on the list of priorities.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
mrcomet
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:41 am

Having recently taken the Airtran/A Train, it is not very convenient and it was pretty dirty. I think it took me 45 minutes or more to get into Manhattan. But its stupid to spend more money to repeat something that works. Can't they just get a very nice new train and make it an express from the airport to downtown? $2 billion will add a lot of fixes to the existing track. The problem is just the stops along the A Train line -- about 50 of them.
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richierich
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting Flyingdove (Thread starter):
From an AP article in the Jerusalem Post, of all places...

"US President George W. Bush will propose giving $2 billion (€1.5 billion) in tax incentives toward building a rail link between lower Manhattan and John F. Kennedy Airport, US Senator Charles Schumer said Thursday..."

Man, it would be nice. Would $2B be enough to extend the AirTrain all the way to Manhattan? I wouldn't think so, never mind the local opposition that is bound to come out it. They'd have to do something similar to what they did on the Van Wyck - basically build the elevated AirTrain above the highway.

Quoting MrComet (Reply 14):
Having recently taken the Airtran/A Train, it is not very convenient and it was pretty dirty. I think it took me 45 minutes or more to get into Manhattan.



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 5):
The A train sucks. Sorry.

Its better than nothing, but I agree it is hardly convenient or comfortable. $2 is a great bargain, but that's the best thing I can say about it.

The NY Subway system (similar to the London Underground) was not designed for airplane passenger traffic, with luggage. I've gone from Grand Central in midtown Manhattan to JFK several times, often with a rolling suitcase. It sucks. Two subways, a bunch of stairs with no elevator or escalator option, narrow turnstiles, a 5 minute walk between subway stations, etc. Transit time is 45 minutes for sure, possibly longer on weekends or latenights when subway service is reduced.
None shall pass!!!!
 
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STT757
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 15):
Would $2B be enough to extend the AirTrain all the way to Manhattan?

The project's current estimate is $7 Billion.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
iahflyer
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 15):
Its better than nothing, but I agree it is hardly convenient or comfortable. $2 is a great bargain, but that's the best thing I can say about it

Yes the A-Train sucks, but $7 bucks get you what you paid for. I did this trip recently and the only thing bad was a smelly elevator.

Ultimately, rather than building a new line, an A express that stops at PA Bus terminal, G.C. Station, Fulton Street Transit Hub and Penn station would be perfect with a spanking new train with proper room for suitcases. This idea would be just fine with the AirTrain.
Little airports with the big jets are the best!! Floyd
 
boswashsprstar
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:57 am

The foolish thing is that it makes almost no sense to send the rail link to Lower Manhattan. The overwhelming trend is for businesses to move to Midtown, where both the LIRR and the E train offer decent (not great) connectivity to the AirTrain as is.

One more sensible plan, which often disappears in the frenzy for "reconstructing" a downtown that was emptying out anyway, was to use space in the new extension to Penn Station (if it ever gets built) for an AirTrain station. The train would connect at Jamaica from its current tracks onto the existing LIRR tracks and run direct into Penn. This would require more complicated trains, as the AirTrain uses a different propulsion system than the LIRR does, but is likely still cheaper than building a new downtown station just for the AirTrain.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:08 am

I think the big deal is to make sure that the trains are more convenient than taxis which they aren't.

I will use whichever system is most convenient as most business travelers will, and if the cost is a good deal then holiday travelers will too. The less human interaction I have the better. Humans only tend to get in the way when traveling.

I love e-ticketing. Light rail. And the like. Avoiding taxi cab drivers from hell, rent a heap clerks, hotel check in clerks and the like that only make me angrier than I already am after a long day of travel makes life easier for me.  Big grin
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:17 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
It's called the Long Island Rail Road. Granted, one has to take AirTrain to get to it, but the involved hassle is about as much as it is to get from the terminals to the Heathrow Express at LHR.

For sure will be a huge improvement on NYC area.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 15):
The NY Subway system (similar to the London Underground) was not designed for airplane passenger traffic, with luggage. I've gone from Grand Central in midtown Manhattan to JFK several times, often with a rolling suitcase. It sucks. Two subways, a bunch of stairs with no elevator or escalator option, narrow turnstiles, a 5 minute walk between subway stations, etc. Transit time is 45 minutes for sure, possibly longer on weekends or latenights when subway service is reduced.

Agree with you, and the lack of escalator is a huge problem when you get a rolling suitcase, and on peak times, trains are also crowded which means a non comfortable trip. I use Lexington/53rd to JFK some times and need to say that it's not good option, just cheap.

And a taxi from JFK to Manhattan during peak hours is not a good idea...

Felipe
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cofannyc
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:08 pm

I live on the UWS and the combination of the C train to the LIRR to the AirTrain has taken me just over 40 minutes. That's a pretty good deal for $7.

I'm originally from Boston and the only way to get to that airport was by car. If I tried to take the commuter rail to the subway to another subway from my suburban home, it would have taken over 2 hours. The AirTrain/LIRR combo usually takes less time than a taxi and costs about 1/5.

LGA now there's the airport that is a pain in the ass to get to/from.
 
ChinaClipper40
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:08 pm

Quoting FlyingDove (Reply 3):
It's interesting that there was a time when the Metropolitan Transit Authority ran a JFK super express subway train to and from Midtown Manhattan

Yes, that was the "JFK Express" or "The Train to the Plane" service run by the New York City Transit Authority from 1978 to 1990. For most of those 12 years, it originated at Central Park South and 6th Avenue, ran straight south down the center of Manhattan under 6th Avenue (making 7 stops in Manhattan), crossed the East River to Brooklyn (where it made 1 stop at Borough Hall station), and then ran express to the Howard Beach station near JFK (where one endured an awkward change to a bus to get to the terminals at JFK, those being the days before the advent of the JFK AirTrain service connecting the JFK terminals to the Howard Beach station). The metro cars that were used on that service were clean and comfortable, and the service was regular (every 20 minutes, if memory serves me). Yet the service failed for lack of ridership. So, what went wrong? Too many stops in Manhattan? Too expensive (there was an extra charge collected on the train, in addition to the regular subway fare paid upon entering whatever station one used to board the service)? Most importantly, now that the JFK AirTrain is in operation, could this service be reinstated and become successful? Perhaps if there were far fewer stops, and it really emulated the Heathrow Express or Gatwick Express? What if the service started at Rockefeller Center (because of the convergence there of subway lines from upper West Side Manhattan, upper East Side Manhattan, and northern Queens - which could feed passengers to the service), made 1 stop at 42nd Street (to pick up midtown Manhattan passengers), made 1 stop at Broadway-Nassau-Fulton station (to pick up lower Manhattan passengers), and then ran express to Howard Beach station - connecting with the JFK AirTrain? With so few stops in Manhattan, and running express from lower Manhattan all the way to Howard Beach, couldn't the trip be done in 40 or 45 minutes? After all, in metro services world-wide the major factors contributing to slow service are 1) number of stops, and 2) dwell-time within each stop. And the NYC subway trains have been proven to be capable of 70 mph speeds. Would this be a feasible alternative to an all new-build JFK rail link? Which we all know is so low on the priority list of mass transit needs in NYC that it's never going to happen. Or am I being delusional here? Thoughts?

ChinaClipper40
 
B707Stu
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:39 pm

Don't see the point, the JFK services through LIRR/Jamaica Station and the "A" train JFK stop to Air Tran for both are very good. They've invested millions in those systems when they should have done the direct line back then. Let it go. I used LIRR/Jamaica link in December and it was great.
 
mrcomet
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:02 pm

Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 22):
Or am I being delusional here? Thoughts?

It makes sense to me. They could have an express train with no stops and then a local train with three stops on the hour. Traffic patterns will dictate the traffic.

The key is ease of use for international traffic. The trains in Vienna and other cities are easy to get to at the airport, have good signage and run quickly. The system set up now is good. It just needs a nicer train with luggage racks and proper elevators/escalators and a lot less stops. The LIRR and A train options will still be available for other people.

I fear, ultimately, that these trains are not money makers. However, you can't underestimate the benefits of skipping cab drivers. They are the first person and international travel will meet in your city and the most likely to cheat you although I must say I've never, ever had a problem in NYC. It's Athens, Istanbul and Rome that drives you crazy.
The dude abides
 
PanHAM
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:06 pm

Instead of extending the Airtrain to Jamaica Station they should have extended the LIRR line to JFK - even as an elevated over the Van Wyck. Make it a one stop at Jamaica for those connecting to LI. I am not sure if there are enough platform slots at Penn Station to accommodate 4 trains per hour but the rail line between Jamaica Station and Penn Station should be able to handle that even in rush hours. Needs probably some additonal signaling but 120 seconds trains separation is done in other parts of the world.

7 Billion is a lot to connect just one of 3 airports to the City. EWR is well served, by trains to the City, what about LGA? That should be the priority.
powered by Eierlikör
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 22):
Gatwick Express

This service is to be axed in favour of a london-gatwick-brighton express train...

Gatwick needs the Express... It keeps tourists off the cramped Southern Train services at peak times...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
jfk777
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:15 pm

Its just sad a train from Grand Central or Penn station to JFK can't be made to work, only if the political will existed. A 2nd ave subway is probably far more important but the rich Port Authority with the feds, state and the city should make it work. Subways are a city and state issue with some money from Washington but Spitzer and the mayor have to find a way. New York is too important a place to have the third world transportation system it has. Only if Robert Moses were still around.
 
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STT757
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:40 pm

The existing Airtrain cannot and will not be able to operate side by side with the LIRR or NYC Subway, the FRA will not grant an exemption to it's crash worthiness standards. Nor will the MTA Unions allow automated trains to operate over tracks their members operate, then there's the technology difference to overcome.

The proposed Airtrain to Lower Manhattan would require the LIRR's Atlantic Avenue branch between Atlantic Yards and Jamaica station to be converted to Airtrain operations, meaning no direct service from Long Island to Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan.

With regards to Airtrain to Mid Town it was discussed in 2000, however even if the technology gap could be over come there are no slots for additional trains to NY PENN. Any new slots that become available when LIRR switches some trains to Grand Central are for NJ Transit.

The Airtrain does not have enough ridership to warrant given it slots, the majority of Airtrain riders are from out of State. No politician is going to deny a commuter a one seat ride to work so a visitor from Florida can have a nicer ride from the Airport, visitors do not vote.

IMO the JFK-Lower Manhattan rail link is not worth the investment as it's currently envisioned ($7 Billion).

The $2 Billion from the Feds and any additional funding from the Port Authority would be better spent on..

1.) Dedicated A Train Express service (former Train to Plane), with limited stops and dedicated fleet of Subway cars with commuter type seats vs the benches. Perhaps even adding a express track in Queens and Brooklyn to bypass slower local trains. From Mid-town to the Terminal area via transfer at Howard Beach 30-35 minutes. Separate station space in Mid-town (Farley Post Office) and Downtown (Fulton Transit Center) for airport travelers.

2.) Extend Airtrain from Jamaica Station to Laguardia Airport with connections to the LIRR's Oyster Bay branch, NYC Transit Flushing line.

3.) Further extend the Airtrain from Laguardia to the N train in Astoria.

4.) Extend PATH service 1.5 miles on the World Trade Center line to Newark Airport's rail link station.

All of these projects could probably be done for the $7 Billion the current proposal would cost, it would also benefit more travelers.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ltbewr
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:43 pm

Another waste of money and probably where a number of politicans get big donations to be influenced.
Yes, I did take the JFK Express (a/k/a 'The Train To The Plane') a few times. The big problem is getting you and your bulky luggage in and out of the connecting stations or transfers from other trains to the stations where the JFK Express stopped.
A cheap ($ 4.00) alternative is to connect to the A train and from one of the last stops near JFK, there is a bus that goes into the JFK roads to the terminals.
EWR has a major passanger train line only a short distance from the terminals, but even that connecting service (the tram) is a pain with the stairs, elevators and esclators. JFK doesn't have a major passanger train line that close to it.
In Europe at a number of airports that I have had experience with, there is a lot fewer hassles to get from the terminals to the train tracks with your luggage.
 
TedEx
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:05 pm

The taxi union in SLC put the breaks on connecting the airport to the UTA's Trax system. There's a bus but it's only ever 30 min. during the day and less frequent during the weekend. Not exactly the best method of attracting ridership.
 
georgiaame
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:11 pm

Why is the FEDERAL government shelling out my good Federal Income Tax money for this pork barrel project? Bush and the former Republican administration have been spending money like drunken Democrats for 6 years, and this is yet another perfect example. This is a major reason the Republican Congress got dumped in November. If you want Democrat policies, why not vote for the real thing rather than a pseudo-Dem?

Regardless. JFK has needed decent rapid transport into Manhattan for decades. It has never been built, because the single largest economic powerhouse on the planet has been crying poverty for decades, and obviously wants someone else to pay for the project. Tax the MTA airport passengers, tax the city residents, hell, tax the New York State residents to build the project, tax the New York Stock Exchange. But don't put your hands in my pockets, and use the police force of the Federal government to seize my hard earned assets to be redistributed so that Senator Schummer, the State's only non-figure head Senator, can get re-elected.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
D950
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 28):
2.) Extend Airtrain from Jamaica Station to Laguardia Airport with connections to the LIRR's Oyster Bay branch, NYC Transit Flushing line.

3.) Further extend the Airtrain from Laguardia to the N train in Astoria.

The first common sense approach, on both accounts. Anyone who thinks Manhattan folks are going to use public transportation and schlep their own bags is on something.
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
richierich
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 22):
And the NYC subway trains have been proven to be capable of 70 mph speeds. Would this be a feasible alternative to an all new-build JFK rail link? Which we all know is so low on the priority list of mass transit needs in NYC that it's never going to happen. Or am I being delusional here? Thoughts?

I'd be happy with a dedicated train on the LIRR to meet the AirTrain at Jamaica Station. This would have to be a regular train, every 15-20 minutes or so, and not cost an arm and leg. Not sure if they could do anything from GCT, but that would be a huge plus also.
None shall pass!!!!
 
EvilForce
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 32):
Why is the FEDERAL government shelling out my good Federal Income Tax money for this pork barrel project? Bush and the former Republican administration have been spending money like drunken Democrats for 6 years, and this is yet another perfect example. This is a major reason the Republican Congress got dumped in November. If you want Democrat policies, why not vote for the real thing rather than a pseudo-Dem?

You really have no clue how transportation dollars are funded and spent in this country.

This project will cost almost $ 7 billion. OF WHICH, the Fed's will be picking up $ 2 billion. AS WITH ALL MAJOR TRANSPORTATION MONIES SPENT, the fed will pick up a PORTION of the total money spent with state and local govts picking up the rest.

Whether you build a subway in NYC, a highway in Montana, or bus service in Topeka, the Fed's pick up a portion of the funding. It's been that way since Eisenhower (probably before too) decided transportation was a national security project.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
super80
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:40 am

The express railway to and from JFK and lower Manhattan is a great idea.

If they can build it like the Airport Express HKG has will be a plus. Check-in at the train station then take the train to JFK ~~ baggage free !!!

Do you think they will do the that for JFK ?
 
cloudy
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 22):
Would this be a feasible alternative to an all new-build JFK rail link? Which we all know is so low on the priority list of mass transit needs in NYC that it's never going to happen. Or am I being delusional here? Thoughts?

ChinaClipper40

I was under the impression that in 1990 the New York subway system had a reputation as a crime-ridden hellhole. Not very many people who fly regularly would use it. However, since Giuliani's reforms, it has improved a great deal and now people are less afraid to use it. Nowadays, an express train could work. But I'm not a New Yorker so probably my impressions are skewed somewhat.
 
ChinaClipper40
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 31):
Why is the FEDERAL government shelling out my good Federal Income Tax money for this



Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 31):
But don't put your hands in my pockets, and use the police force of the Federal government to seize my hard earned assets to be redistributed

Wow. What a polemical diatribe! I'm guessing that you weren't born in the United States, right? If you were, you must have slept straight through all those American history classes in junior high school and high school, eh? The federal government has ALWAYS subsidized public transportation in the U.S. In the late 1700s, it subsidized the roads built over the Appalachian mountains so that the vast new territory between the Appalachians and the Mississippi River could be settled. In the early 1800s, it subsidized extensive canal-building so that people, raw material, and goods could be moved easily and cheaply throughout the country. In the middle and late 1800s, it subsidized the building of the railroad network that tied the continent together. In the 1900s, it subsidized the building of a modern highway network across the continent and subsidized the airline industry. The reason the federal government "puts it hands" in your pockets to subsidize MY commuter rail lines and metro/subway systems is the same reason the federal goverment "puts its hands" in MY pockets to subsidize YOUR interstate highways, YOUR bus services, and YOUR air traffic control network. In fact, it is arguably the rural areas of the country that benefit most from this "redistribution" of assets. On a per capita basis, rural areas get more federal transportation subsidies (mostly in the form of the Interstate Highway System) than do the large metropolitan areas of the northeast, where city and state tax dollars bear a higher percentage of the burden.

ChinaClipper40
 
cofannyc
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 33):
I'd be happy with a dedicated train on the LIRR to meet the AirTrain at Jamaica Station. This would have to be a regular train, every 15-20 minutes or so, and not cost an arm and leg.

There are approximately 185 trains per day between Penn Station and Jamaica. A majority of them only stop at Woodside before heading to Jamaica. And its $5 off peak (all times except evening rush hour) and $7 peak. I'd say that the LIRR already meets your requirements.
 
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STT757
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting Super80 (Reply 35):
The express railway to and from JFK and lower Manhattan is a great idea.

If they can build it like the Airport Express HKG has will be a plus. Check-in at the train station then take the train to JFK ~~ baggage free !!!

Do you think they will do the that for JFK ?

The problem is that the plan would link JFK with Lower Manhattan, the majority of visitors both leisure and business are heading to Mid-town. You would need to transfer to a Subway to reach Mid-Town.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
richierich
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 36):
I was under the impression that in 1990 the New York subway system had a reputation as a crime-ridden hellhole. Not very many people who fly regularly would use it. However, since Giuliani's reforms, it has improved a great deal and now people are less afraid to use it.

It wasn't that bad back then, and it is not that good today.

Quoting COFanNYC (Reply 38):
And its $5 off peak (all times except evening rush hour) and $7 peak. I'd say that the LIRR already meets your requirements.

Not bad. Now we only need a reasonable link between GCT and Penn Station!
None shall pass!!!!
 
etfokker50
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:45 am

I think the only rail infrastructure project here in the Netherlands that ever let the railway company make a profit off of it was the so called 'Schiphol tunnel'. The rail tunnel runs under Schiphol airport (AMS), and the train station is located just underneath the departure area. There's trains that go from there to every corner of the country, and it's actually one of the busiest stations.
 
csavel
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 28):
The $2 Billion from the Feds and any additional funding from the Port Authority would be better spent on..

1.) Dedicated A Train Express service (former Train to Plane), with limited stops and dedicated fleet of Subway cars with commuter type seats vs the benches. Perhaps even adding a express track in Queens and Brooklyn to bypass slower local trains. From Mid-town to the Terminal area via transfer at Howard Beach 30-35 minutes. Separate station space in Mid-town (Farley Post Office) and Downtown (Fulton Transit Center) for airport travelers.

2.) Extend Airtrain from Jamaica Station to Laguardia Airport with connections to the LIRR's Oyster Bay branch, NYC Transit Flushing line.

3.) Further extend the Airtrain from Laguardia to the N train in Astoria.

4.) Extend PATH service 1.5 miles on the World Trade Center line to Newark Airport's rail link station.

All of these projects could probably be done for the $7 Billion the current proposal would cost, it would also benefit more travelers.

Bingo absolutely, and I might add, if new security requirements can do it having check-in in Jamaica, and have some "sterile" Airtrains that go non-stop from JFK to LGA, with luggage, sort of like transferring between an international and domestic terminal. I do realize you'd have to go through security again, but say you fly via Delta from Europe and you are on your way to Podunk, well you go through customs give your bag bac to the Delta agent,and take the airtrain to JFK's domestic terminal (LGA) You're already checked in all you have to do is go through security. Same way vice versa on Mr. Podunk's way back to Europe.

Quoting D950 (Reply 32):
Anyone who thinks Manhattan folks are going to use public transportation and schlep their own bags is on something.

Well I'm a Manhattan folk, and unless I am travelling on my company's dime, I ALWAYS take public transport. And plenty of visitors TO Manhattan will take it as well.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 31):
IWhy is the FEDERAL government shelling out my good Federal Income Tax money for this pork barrel project? Bush and the former Republican administration have been spending money like drunken Democrats for 6 years, and this is yet another perfect example. This is a major reason the Republican Congress got dumped in November. If you want Democrat policies, why not vote for the real thing rather than a pseudo-Dem?

I don't want to get into a flame war with you GeorgiaAME, but trust me, NYC'ers give far more money to the feds and get back less than almost any state. I assume GeorgiaAME is from Georgia, well the Spaghetti interchange was built with MY money as well as a large part of MARTA. The TVA, built with MY money (OK my grandparents money) actually put a lot of the South in a competetive advantage with NY. Every time a Californian or an Arizonan takes a drink of water in their desert home, thank me, I paid for it. So be careful of what you wish for, if you resent the feds spending money for this then I'll make a deal with you, don't spend for this and we won't spend for projects in your state. Trust me, you'll come out worse than me.

And don't even get me started on all the welfare we piss away to farmers.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 39):
The problem is that the plan would link JFK with Lower Manhattan, the majority of visitors both leisure and business are heading to Mid-town

True, but there is still a large number of businesses in Lower Manhattan, and this is a sort of way to keep Lower Manhattan competitive post 9/11. Plus a lot of those old office towers are converted to condos with Yuppies who travel (and who actually do take public transport to the airport if it is convenient enough)
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:01 am

The last time I got on the A train two guys in Army Uniforms with M-16's boarded with me. I'd never seen that in America before, I thought maybe I was somewhere else (maybe I was)
 
BostonGuy
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 18):
The foolish thing is that it makes almost no sense to send the rail link to Lower Manhattan.

Post 9/11 Federal funds aren't going to mid-town Manhattan due to politicians trying to shore up lower Manhattan's viability to businesses. Lower Manhattan isn't the destination because they think that's where it makes sense to go, it's the destination because politicians need to show they are funneling money to attract and retain businesses in the lower Manhattan area.

Quoting COFanNYC (Reply 21):
I'm originally from Boston and the only way to get to that airport was by car.

How can you be from Boston and not know the airport has a subway station and commuter boat dock? The airport station on the Blue Line subway has been there for decades. And the Silver Line goes from South Station direct to each airline terminal.

Are you from some other Boston?
 
richierich
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Csavel (Reply 42):
Well I'm a Manhattan folk, and unless I am travelling on my company's dime, I ALWAYS take public transport. And plenty of visitors TO Manhattan will take it as well.

I agree with this completely. Build it and they will come, provided that the service is otherwise convenient.

Quoting BostonGuy (Reply 44):
Are you from some other Boston?

There is a Boston on the east coast of the United Kingdom. I doubt they have an airport, and if they do, I would think the car is the only way to get to it!
None shall pass!!!!
 
cofannyc
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting BostonGuy (Reply 44):
Are you from some other Boston?

No, the same Boston that does have those transportation options. But I live on the UWS (approx. 20 miles from JFK) and it's no problem taking public transportation to JFK.

But the same 20 mile trip from Wakefield would mean taking Commuter Rail to North Station, taking the Green Line (when you can squeeze on the trolley) to Government Center and then switching to the Blue Line to get to the airport. Oh and then getting on a bus outside the T Station to finally get to the terminal.

Or I guess taking the bus to the Orange Line, transfer at State to the Blue Line and then still get on the terminal bus.

Either way its 90+ minutes for a 20 mile trip in Boston or 40-50 minutes for a 20 mile trip in NY. I'll take JFK's transportation links any day.
 
ncelhr
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 8):
Only thing LIRR has going for it is that it's a lot cheaper than Heathrow Express.

Anything can be cheaper than the Heathrow Express.
It is possibly the most expensive train ride per mile in the world. Close to $20 for 15 minutes... and at times you can't even get a seat on it. What a ripoff. A very helpful and convenient ripoff when you need to get there fast, but a ripoff nevertheless...
 
richierich
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 47):
Close to $20 for 15 minutes...

Its actually 14.50GBP at the moment - with today's current exchange rates, that's actually more than US$28! I don't know the actual mileage (11? 13?) but it is very expensive on a per mile basis.

I guess the JFK AirTrain to Howard Beach is fairly expensive per mile too. $5 for, say, T8/9 to Howard Beach. Total distance is about 3 miles (it could be 4, I'm not sure). Not as much as HE, but not exactly a travel bargain when you look at it that way!
None shall pass!!!!
 
max999
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RE: Pres. Bush Proposes $2 Billion JFK Rail Link

Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:13 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 27):
Its just sad a train from Grand Central or Penn station to JFK can't be made to work, only if the political will existed. A 2nd ave subway is probably far more important but the rich Port Authority with the feds, state and the city should make it work. Subways are a city and state issue with some money from Washington but Spitzer and the mayor have to find a way. New York is too important a place to have the third world transportation system it has. Only if Robert Moses were still around.

With Robert Moses, he would have built highways to connect to JFK. He cared not for public transit, especially anything rail-based. His legacy is why the NYC subways were so starved of money going into the 60's and 70's. (And we all know that lack of funding led to the crime, graffiti, filth, and decay which has left a bad image of the subways system for many non-New Yorkers.)

Maybe what you meant is that we a Robert Moses like figure today to build a JFK rail ink?
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.

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