leelaw
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Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:32 pm

Dreamliner slips on "bird test"

By Dominic Gates, Seattle Times aerospace reporter

Quote:
Boeing acknowledged Friday that the horizontal tail section of the 787 Dreamliner had cracked slightly during a so-called "bird-strike" test, but described the incident as a routine part of developing the new jet.

The Dreamliner program is under intense scrutiny as Boeing prepares to build the first all-composite airliner, so every glitch — or potential glitch — makes analysts and investors skittish...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...aerospace/2003554448_boeing03.html

Hopefully both Messrs Gates and Wallace (of the Seattle P-I) will be providing a lot more "quality" grist like this for the A.net discussion "mil"l as the year unfolds.

[Edited 2007-02-03 12:05:04]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
WINGS
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:46 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Dreamliner slips on "bird test"

By Dominic Gates, Seattle Times aerospace reporter

A very interesting article Leelaw, thank you for sharing it with us.

Well it seems that Boeing has suffered a small glitch, although I'm more than confident that Boeing will easily handle this situation. It would seem that the horizontal tail section may have to be reinforced with additional layers of composites. It may increase the weight a little but nothing extraordinary.

I'm wondering if Boeing will perform the same test on the fuselage and wings.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:10 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 1):
It would seem that the horizontal tail section may have to be reinforced with additional layers of composites

Wait, the horizonatal tail is made out of composites too?

[Edited 2007-02-03 12:11:08]
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
slz396
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:16 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Boeing prepares to build the first all-composite airliner,

This is factually wrong and another proof of the trend which we are witnessing in which the picture is painted with a very thick pencil, incorrect generalisations -ut supra- are made and subsequently repeated 'ad infinitum' until they become so hammered in, not do they become a like a slogan linked to the product, but also do they remain widely unquestioned.

As to the contents of the article:
These things happen, that's why it is tested.
Boeing will have to add a bit more material to the weak spots of the elevator (and possibly also to other segments of the plane), take the weight increase on these pieces for what it is and move on to the next stage...
 
a380900
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:19 pm

I thought the ground breaking composite feature of the 787 was the composite fuselage. Aren't composite horizontal stabilizer more run of the mill? I think the tail section of the A380 is composite for instance.

My point is that this problem has probably nothing to do with the 787 breaking new grounds in composite technologies. Or has it?
 
BestWestern
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Lets not get carried away here... These tests are what makes airline flying safe. Boeing will do nothing that is not 110% proper.

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 2):
Wait, the horizonatal tail is made out of composites too?

Interesting question - what was the composition of the material that showed stress?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
EI321
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:29 pm

Is thes part of the horizontal tail not already composite on some aircraft already in service?
 
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zeke
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 6):
Is thes part of the horizontal tail not already composite on some aircraft already in service?

Composite horizontal tail was on the A300R in 1986, the A320 shortly after in 1989. The 320 has a composite vertical and horizontal tail. I think the first civil primary structure that was made from carbon fibre structure was the A310-300 in 1985.

In 1991 the A340 had a composite horizontal tail plane with an integrated fuel tank.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
SEPilot
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
Composite horizontal tail was on the A300R in 1986, the A320 shortly after in 1989. The 320 has a composite vertical and horizontal tail. I think the first civil primary structure that was made from carbon fibre structure was the A310-300 in 1985.

In 1991 the A340 had a composite horizontal tail plane with an integrated fuel tank.

I was under the impression that the 777 horizontal stabilizer was composite as well. The vertical stabilizer on the A300 that crashed in NY was composite also; I was under the impression that all A300 vertical stabilizers were.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
art
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:15 pm

I think it is high time birds were equipped with TCAS. Wink
 
Lumberton
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:21 pm

What is noteworthy is that every little glitch on this program is being made public. Good move IMO. Less room for "gotcha" reporting.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Stitch
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:27 pm

On the plus side, we're seeing how easy it is to reinforce the 787's structure. A single extra layer of composite tape is all that is needed to prevent what minor damage that did occur from happening. And a single ply isn't going to add any noticeable weight to the structure.
 
2H4
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:33 pm




Quoting Slz396 (Reply 3):
Boeing will have to add a bit more material

Not necessarily. When a composite structure requires more strength, there are several viable solutions. It's not always a matter of simply adding more material.


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
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Stitch
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 12):
Not necessarily. When a composite structure requires more strength, there are several viable solutions. It's not always a matter of simply adding more material.

The article itself quotes a Boeing spokesperson as nothing the fix will be adding an extra ply of composite tape to the area and thickening the metal strip slightly.
 
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zeke
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 8):
I was under the impression that all A300 vertical stabilizers were.

No, the A300 is 1972, composite fins started on the A310-300 in 1985, it was also on the A300-600R in 1986.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
jacobin777
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:06 am

Where are all the "doom and gloom" folks on A.net...they know who they are... Wink

That being said, this reminds me of the situation a while back when Boeing had tried experimenting in manufacturing one of the barrels earlier which yielded a few "bubbles"...the A.net force was out in full swing..turned out to be nothing more than "trial and error".....I suspect this is something they will be able to deal with quickly.....composite horizontal tails have been built for a long time...
"Up the Irons!"
 
highflyer9790
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:47 am

well, thats wht testing is for-they'll fix it and move on.
121
 
osiris30
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:53 am

Perhaps the important stuff has been left out of this discussion:

Quote:
Gunter said the damage was within the acceptable tolerances for an airplane to continue to fly safely. "We met that standard," she said.

and

Quote:
The outcome was "a very small crack that we just weren't comfortable with," Gunter said. The crack extended through a thin metal strip along the leading edge to the carbon-fiber reinforced composite plastic of the tail structure. ... She said Boeing also evaluates how much it will cost an airline to repair any damage. That factor prompted changes that were "really driven by the economics of the situation rather than certification or safety requirements."

So sounds like the metal strip was a tad too thin to spread out the impact force sufficiently.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
citationjet
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:59 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
Where are all the "doom and gloom" folks on A.net...they know who they are...

Anyone who think that an issue like this is a big deal has never worked in aircraft product development.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
474218
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
I think the first civil primary structure that was made from carbon fibre structure was the A310-300 in 1985.

Composite inboard ailerons were flight tested on the Lockheed owned L-1011 in 1980. Then in-service tests were conducted using two Delta and two TWA L-1011's from 1982 thru 1987.

Reference: http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ada305696
 
2H4
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:32 am




Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
The article itself quotes a Boeing spokesperson as nothing the fix will be adding an extra ply of composite tape to the area and thickening the metal strip slightly.

Ah, sure enough. Thanks, Stitch!


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
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Stitch
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 18):
Anyone who think that an issue like this is a big deal has never worked in aircraft product development.

And that would be most of us (though I did have a tangential role in it when I worked for Boeing).  Smile
 
ikramerica
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:14 am

I'm pretty sure this is why you conduct these tests. Find out what needs modification, modify it.

When flying, would the crew even know if they hit a bird with the tail?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
When flying, would the crew even know if they hit a bird with the tail?

If it were an 8 lb bird, ie a Canada goose, the crew would know. At 250 kts, the energy input to the h. tail would be about 22,000 ft-lbs.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
ikramerica
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 23):

So what kind of indication would the crew get? Noise, vibration, harshness? Slight change in attitude?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
thegooddoctor
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:33 am

When I read this I thought of my favorite Airbus vs. Boeing joke: The engineer from Airbus emails his friend at Boeing and tells him he's recently been put in charge of engine testing. He then asks his buddy (who's in charge of the same division at boeing) how to best perform the birdstrike test. The Boeing engineer replies that he likes to use chickens purchased at the grocery store. A week later, the Airbus engineer emails his Boeing buddy telling him that things are going badly and they've destroyed six engines in a week. He asks his boeing buddy what he would do in this situation, to which the boeing engineer writes back a one-line reply:

Unthaw the chickens.
The GoodDoctor
 
VictorKilo
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:34 am

My guess is that this test was run to correlate the results of a computer analysis of a bird strike to a physical analysis of a bird strike - and that the gel pack was used because it is easier to model analytically (with known properties) than to model the carcass of a bird. One of the classes that I took in my master's program in engineering talked about similar models used to predict the performance of tests run to certify that new vehicles meet federal safety regulations. And as good as engineers in the auto industry have gotten at creating models used to predict what happens when a soft/gel object hits a plastic/composite object, testing still needs to be done to correlate these models with physical test results. With the results of the test, engineers can tweak their models and use those models to iterate the design into a final form.

So it's not like the Dreamliner failed the test. I would say that not running this test would make it harder for either Boeing or Airbus to make sure that a new aircraft design passes the final test.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
So what kind of indication would the crew get? Noise, vibration, harshness? Slight change in attitude?

The noise and the airplane yaw would be the primary indications.

A similar energy level would be produced if a 10 ton catering truck hit the airplane aft body at 5-6 mph.

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 25):
Unthaw the chickens.

Yet another permutation of a favorite bird gun test urban legend.

[Edited 2007-02-03 18:48:55]
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
jacobin777
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 18):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
Where are all the "doom and gloom" folks on A.net...they know who they are...

Anyone who think that an issue like this is a big deal has never worked in aircraft product development.

...the only only thing the article does is give the 787 bashers some fodder for them to munch on before reality sets in... Wink

...this is a simple experiment...part of any "design and manufacturing" process..I dont' see what the big deal is.. confused 
"Up the Irons!"
 
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zeke
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 19):

Composite inboard ailerons were flight tested on the Lockheed owned L-1011 in 1980. Then in-service tests were conducted using two Delta and two TWA L-1011's from 1982 thru 1987.

About the same time as the A300 CFRP spoiler trial in 1980, CFRP spoilers, ailerons, and rudder were on the A310-200 in 1982. GFRP fairings were on the A300 in 1972.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 17):

So sounds like the metal strip was a tad too thin to spread out the impact force sufficiently.

Yep. Perhaps a layer of more impact resistant composite needs to be on the underside? This won't be much more weight. Increasing the metal strip thickness by 50% solves the problem too.  spin 

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
...this is a simple experiment...part of any "design and manufacturing" process..I dont' see what the big deal is..

It isn't a big deal. But I still find it interesting!  bigthumbsup 

This is why aircraft parts are always tested. There are always issues on every airframe or engine. Every single one without exception. If they are just minor... yea. Fix and go to production. Some require fixes (more stringent manufacturing control, reinforcement, etc.)

The 787 seems to be progressing nicely.
Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
ikramerica
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 30):
It isn't a big deal. But I still find it interesting!

Yep. I like to understand how everything works. If it means certain members of the forum can read things into it, that's fine. I do believe that is the intention of the newspaper, as they live under the "muckraking even if it's nothing" philosophy. Does kind of show to those who say USA papers treat Airbus with more hostility than Boeing are wrong. Every time a Boeing engineer sneezes on a 787, it'll be in the news...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
citationjet
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 25):
Unthaw the chickens

Don't you mean thaw the chickens?

Unthaw would be to freeze them.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
cpw
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:32 am

Interesting article in the Seattle Times a few years ago -- I thought it had a bit more info on the components made out of composites on previous projects, but an interesting read nonetheless:

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...20030618&query=boeing+frederickson

This article also has a bit more on the Frederickson plant... the Times had several articles on the plant in rapid succession a few years ago:

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...20030528&query=boeing+frederickson
 
rpaillard
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:52 am

Hi,

Am I the only with the feeling that manufacturers are under such a huge pressure that they always try to be at the extreme limit?

Trying harder to avoid dead weight is not new, but we have a weakness with the wing on the A380 and now a new one with the 787.

In both case, not a big deal, and pretty easy to fix. It's such a non-event that manufacturers could fix and assess it virtually with computers.

Engineer's calculations and backed up by computers. Obviously, there is always a margin. Make it right and perfect from scratch is almost impossible. But still, are new designs going too far with security?

At the end of the day, very positive and worthwhile test.

Raphael
FLY SKYTEAM JETS
 
LY4XELD
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 26):
My guess is that this test was run to correlate the results of a computer analysis of a bird strike to a physical analysis of a bird strike - and that the gel pack was used because it is easier to model analytically (with known properties) than to model the carcass of a bird. One of the classes that I took in my master's program in engineering talked about similar models used to predict the performance of tests run to certify that new vehicles meet federal safety regulations. And as good as engineers in the auto industry have gotten at creating models used to predict what happens when a soft/gel object hits a plastic/composite object, testing still needs to be done to correlate these models with physical test results. With the results of the test, engineers can tweak their models and use those models to iterate the design into a final form. So it's not like the Dreamliner failed the test. I would say that not running this test would make it harder for either Boeing or Airbus to make sure that a new aircraft design passes the final test.

Models are just that...models. They provide a prediction. Real life is real life. That's why you test things. Developmental tests are crucial in ALL new airplane development. And apparently, something was *learned* from a test. Corrective action will be taken, end of story.
That's why we're here.
 
pygmalion
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:16 am

Just a factoid, the 777 stab and fin are both CFRP and have been from EIS. So this is not new technology for Boeing.
 
A342
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 14):
No, the A300 is 1972, composite fins started on the A310-300 in 1985, it was also on the A300-600R in 1986.

I think it already started with the very first A310-200 in 1982. And then, the original A300-600 (non-R) also got it, in 1983.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
nzrich
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:19 am

Hey with any new ground breaking aircraft there will always be problems and the 787 is no exception.. Better to find these problems during testing than on a real aircraft flying with passengers..
"Pride of the pacific"
 
coleplane
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
the only only thing the article does is give the 787 bashers some fodder

Yeh, but you gotta admit there's some entertainment value in this...

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 32):
Don't you mean thaw the chickens?

Don't you just hate it when you botch a good joke.  banghead 

Just kidding. Enjoyed the whole exchange.
"About a nine on the tension scale there Rupe."
 
ikramerica
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Rpaillard (Reply 34):
Trying harder to avoid dead weight is not new, but we have a weakness with the wing on the A380 and now a new one with the 787.

I'm surprised it took 34 posts to make this connection.

Bending loads on a wing are much easier to model and design for than impact loads from a projectile.

The A380 wing should not have failed as designed if designed and built correctly. It was a very minor mistake, but a mistake nonetheless and Airbus had to add some structure to compensate for it.

The projectile fired at the wing, fuselage, tail seciton, etc. is a different matter.

The test is conducted as part of the design process, because all the modeling in the world, using today's methods, will not fully predict the result. The two choices are:

1. over design so that it's way too strong, and then try to trim it off until you trim off too much, and then backup and stop
2. design as best you can to meet the limit of what you will need, and if you underdo it, add some material until it passes and call it a day.

If crushing and impacting were fully predictable via modeling, car companies would not routinely crash test new designs until they "get it right." It would be designed "perfectly" the first time, and then one test would suffice to prove the design...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
thegooddoctor
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 32):

Don't you mean thaw the chickens?



Quoting Coleplane (Reply 39):
Don't you just hate it when you botch a good joke. banghead

LOL! Yes, good catch, THAW the chickens! Mornings are hard on my funny-apparatis  Wink
The GoodDoctor
 
rpaillard
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 40):
I'm surprised it took 34 posts to make this connection.

Don't get me wrong. I do not establish any connexion between the two events. It's a more global reflection regarding design.

My point was that, as far as I know, solution number 1 used to be the standard.

Regards,
Raphael
FLY SKYTEAM JETS
 
wjcandee
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:14 am

The most important sentence of the article was missed by all: the Dreamlifter vibration problem is solved.
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 8):
I was under the impression that the 777 horizontal stabilizer was composite as well.

I believe it is.
Good goes around!
 
Woosie
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 27):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
So what kind of indication would the crew get? Noise, vibration, harshness? Slight change in attitude?

The noise and the airplane yaw would be the primary indications.

A similar energy level would be produced if a 10 ton catering truck hit the airplane aft body at 5-6 mph.

A pulsed yaw moment and the noise will be the only indications. Enough for a PIREP, with a maintenance investigation upon landing.
 
TropicBird
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:46 am

Aircraft routinely have bird-strikes and unless they cause an out-of-limits dent or go through the hot section of an engine which then requires a time consuming borescope, the aircraft can return to service almost immediately.

Apparently with this bird test, safety was never a problem but instead, it was the resulting damage that would have caused the aircraft to be grounded for an unacceptable amount of time to elicit a repair. By fixing that problem now, it will prevent future reliability problems and unhappy customers. It is all part of the normal course of events in aircraft design and certification.
 
hamster
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 pm

What stage is this jet in? Do you think they have a "shell" frame put together? If we opened the door of the 787 factory, what do you think we would see?
 
brendows
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:43 pm

Quoting Hamster (Reply 47):
What stage is this jet in? Do you think they have a "shell" frame put together?

The first few major parts are either in production or produced have been produced, and the first few parts are even delivered for further installation etc. All major parts shall have arrived at Everett around April IIRC. I believe that major parts for somewhere around 14-16 aircraft shall have been produced before this year has come to an end.

Quoting Hamster (Reply 47):
If we opened the door of the 787 factory, what do you think we would see?

There are several sites where they produce the major parts for the 787. At Everett, where most of the parts will be joined, I guess they're preparing the production line for the first assembly.
 
hamster
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RE: Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"

Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:14 pm

So at this point, they dont have all the parts in Seattle to produce a full aircraft.

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