Concorde001
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The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:41 am

I am from London, and have always thought London was not only Britain's premier city, but also one of the world's leading centres for culture, entertainment, arts, media, and perhaps more importantly political and economic power. It is truly a great city and I think the majority of people would agree. These characteristics have played a large role in making London one of the world's most important air transportation hubs, with the majority of airlines knocking at the door to fly here. There is a massive amount of O&D traffic and for airlines like British Airways, Virgin Atlantic and BMI, being based in London is perhaps their biggest strength.

For a small island nation like Britain, I think it is universally agreed that it would be unlikely for the country to have other cities with similar international significance. Even as late as last week I would have agreed with this view, but then I began to study developments in one of Britain's most important cities...Manchester!

Like Glasgow, Newcastle and Birmingham, Manchester was one of quartet of British cities outside London that were the world's most wealthiest and arguably the most envied in the 19th and early 20th centuries. But with the decline of Britain as a whole in the late 20th century, these cities were forgotten and lost there international appeal and more importantly, their economic power.

In terms of aviation, Manchester is probably nowhere near as lucrative or attractive as London for airlines. British Airways have continually cut services and have just sold their regional operation to a LCC carrier; non - London services just don't fit into their business plan. BMI have longhaul services from MAN, but once LHR is opened up after Open Skies, it is well known that BD will cut and run from Manchester. My question is, are these airlines making a mistake?

I ask this because I have just finished looking at present and future plans for developing Manchester and all I can say is wow! The city is really on the move and by 2011 it will one of Europe's most important cities! I feel these types of developments, particularly economic will give a huge boost to Manchester's aviation industry. For airlines like British Airways who chase the high yielding business passengers, I think their decision to abandon Manchester may prove to be a bad one in the long term. Please read my reasons below:

1. The development of Manchester into an international Media City


Below are the plans for the development of a multi-million, international 24 hour media city in Salford, Manchester, which is being aimed to rival the world's other media cities! It was just approved 2 weeks ago! The BBC is going to set up its main media complex in the media city (called Media City UK), making Manchester its most important media base outside London with 50% of its London staff relocating to Manchester! Numerous international news agencies are touted to move to Manchester and it is expected that Media City UK will deliver:

  • £1.5bn to the regional economy.
  • Employment opportunities for 15,500 people.
  • 700,000 sq m (over 7m sq ft) of new and refurbished floorspace for business, retail and residential property.
  • 1,500 trainee posts per year.
  • Space for 1,150 creative and related businesses.
  • The creation of over £225m per annum in additional net value added.
  • Influx of journalists and media specialists from around the world.
  • An international reputation for excellence in media and creative industries!


If you watch the two videos below and look at the construction plans, it is clear Manchester will become an important city. These plans are already being described by BBC executives as a "compelling vision" and a leap into the future "of global significance".



http://www.mediacityuk.co.uk/img/gallery/MCUK1night.jpg
http://www.mediacityuk.co.uk/img/gallery/MCUK2night.jpg
http://www.mediacityuk.co.uk/img/gallery/MCUK3day.jpg




2. The rise of Manchester's Economy and Business Infrastructure


  • According to national statistics, Manchester's economy is growing faster and out-striping that of the rest of the UK.
  • Voted the best city for business in 2006 by Britain's Business Survey.
  • Home to the fastest growing law firm in Britain.
  • Recent significant investments by Bank of New York, RBS, Deloitte, Kleinwort Benson, Barclaycard and AIG - all of these companies have a presence and operations in Manchester's Business district.
  • The development of a £265m supercasino complex - the only one in the UK!
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_politics_enl_1170167347/img/1.jpg
  • The development of Spinningfields -a world class business district. Construction is underway and Manchester is set to have the following award winning buildings! For example, 1 Hardman Square is currently in the planning process and it looks wonderful:
    http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/2151HardmanSquare_pic1.jpg


With all these developments and the desire of Manchester City Council to make the city the next 'Frankfurt', it is clear Manchester is a city going places. With international journalists, media specialists and a growing number of business travellers making their way to Manchester, shouldn't airlines like British Airways strengthen their position in MAN for the long term? For example Media City UK was only given the go-ahead 2 weeks ago and it seems further announcements of developing the economy are likely - it is public knowledge that Manchester is actively seeking to attract another world class financial company to the city! In the short term, Manchester may continue to be the low yielding city, but what about in 2011, when Media City UK has been developed, the Supercasino is open for business and Spinningfields is completed? All of this will be on top of Manchester's current status as a city home to two of the richest football clubs in the world and bags of cultural and academic heritage!

In my view, developments in Manchester will only strengthen the air travel market of the city and has the potential to increase the amount of high yielding passengers. In my view, no other city in the UK is growing in importance as Manchester is. What do you think? Is Manchester on the rise and should airlines be exploiting the city's rise in significance?
 
Concorde001
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:21 pm

I forgot to add that Manchester Airport is predicting a increase to 40m passengers by 2015.

However, these predictions were made before the announcement of the massive investment in Media City UK (which was announced only last month!) Surely this must have an impact upon travel by air in and out Manchester, especially considering the fact thousands of foreign media and IT specialists will be based in the city?

Had BA known this, do you think they would have stayed in Manchester with BA Connect? Either way, I think Manchester's airport will benefit, but I'm not sure which airlines will take advantage...LCCs or full service?
 
jonnywishbone
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:47 pm

Dont forget its proximity to Leeds which is buzzing at the moment, 50+ floor buildings going up everywhere and Liverpool too.

Back to aviation.... Have BA made a mistake, I think so! Selling out BA Connect will hurt them far more than the £ 6 million it lost, because Gold Card hodlers like me will start using Star Alliance Lufthansa to Germany, which then makes me think that i'll use BMI domestically to get my points up and before you know it BA have lost all my intercontinental business as I start using Star or similar for all my other journies - I think that everyone who isnt a city fatcat, yet needs to travel on business will radically change their thinking now that they can no longer use BA, if they have not already done so with the dumbing down of the brand by making it Connect!

I agree that Manchester is expanding, but who will it attract? I dont think QF will be back as they are too embedded with BA at LHR. It would be nice to see NZ go via Shanghai to Auckland (especially as I use PVG!) and Cathay too, but again, I feel they (CX) are too embroiled in OneWorld to ever leave the codeshare arrangement!

There was an opportunity for BMI to do some major expansion, but as they dont seem to be able to arrange a piss up in a brewery, that idea's gone west! So, unless one of the big boys is prepared to go into MAN for the longhaul, we'll be stuck with fragmented expansion courtesy of GSM, Air Asia potentially and no MAJOR flag carrier. Whilst it's nice to see a bit of Kenya Airways and Saudi Arabian, the thought of T2 being able to handle another 3000 families on a day trip to see the relatives leaves me cold!

For the businessman, I see no improvement in the forseeable future, with us fighting with young Kylies and Kellie Maries, trying to squeeze our briefcases on a crammed Jet2 flight to AMS for the day!

Your disolutioned

JonnyWishbone
 
incitatus
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:20 am

Is this thread an ad or what?
Stop pop up ads
 
Candid76
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:35 am

Aviation goes in phases and the current state of play hasn't been too kind to Manchester. However I firmly believe that this will change as the industry continues to develop. This year will be nothing to write home about, the lack of significant new long haul business (Saudia won't have mass appeal, and is likely to only serve the cost sensitive Indian sub-continent market, although it does allow a link for some business travel to the Kingdom), Kenya have already cancelled their slots and I don't expect to see any surprise positive announcements (hope I'm wrong!). The whole low cost phenomenon has contributed to increased pax figures over the last few years which have now levelled out, but overall has been very bad news for MAN, allowing competing airports to rise from nowhere to be strong competitors, and more importantly in my view, leaving our business travellers (as correctly pointed out by JonnyWishbone above) with no suitable product on many routes. Not all passengers want no frills as I've said many times before. Even some of our established more leisure oriented airlines have suffered, with Norwegian and Air Baltic also now pulling out.

Looking forward, two developments in the near future give reason to be quite optimistic. Firstly, the next generation of long haul aircraft, the 787 and A350, lend themselves to point to point services avoiding overcrowded hubs, where current generation aircraft may be too large or too expensive to operate without a good helping of F class pax (which MAN famously lacks in sufficient numbers - for now). Secondly, the new generation of low cost long haul airlines will look favourably on MAN (although I fear they too will want a slice of London business first as that's where their own tourists will want to go), which at least may open up new route possibilities. So from around 2009 (or possibly even next year) we may see Air Asia X, Jetstar et al re-establishing links to Malaysia, Australia and maybe other countries, while Singapore, the US carriers and hopefully Cathay and Thai benefit from the steadily increasing high yield market that economic development will bring. Also, bear in mind that business aviation will also benefit, especially so if there are very limited high quality scheduled services tailored for high net worth passengers.

As far as BA is concerned, yes, they are taking a short term view in order to produce maximum short term benefits for their shareholders. They need to be focused on LHR Terminal 5, which will put all of their eggs in one basket (a policy which has bitten them numerous times recently). With London as economically dominant as it is now, that is maybe OK, but in the future they may find it difficult to establish the kind of secondary hub which they already had foundations for without huge cost implications. But does MAN really need BA anyway?

Britain can only benefit from having two economic powerhouses that can compete on a global scale, these being London and Manchester (with Leeds and Liverpool). Concentration of economic activity in one corner of the UK has caused major problems - transport, housing for example are under severe pressure in the South East. This does need to change.

I hope Concorde001's predictions do come true, I would, I'm a Mancunian. I think things are looking up.
 
Concorde001
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 2):
JonnyWishbone

Thank you for your comments.
May I ask, as you are a company director, what are your views and those of your colleagues and counterparts about Manchester's development - particularly what developments are needed at the airport in terms of airlines and service to aid and support development? For example, what services are the business community crying out for - China, India, Brazil?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 3):
Is this thread an ad or what?

It is meant to be a thread!

I've put alot of pictures and videos regarding Manchester's development because as a Londoner, I had this stereotypical view of Manchester as an old, run down industrial city that had its day long ago! But when I visited the city and had a look at the massive projects in and around the city, I was pleasantly surpised and impressed - I am trying to relate this to aviation!

Manchester has recently been in the news as British Airways is withdrawing a majority of its services, particularly services to European capitals and economic centres. BMI is only committed to Manchester in the short term as once EU-US Open Skies is in force, it is common knowledge they will withdraw from the city. But with all the development, economic growth out-striping the rest of Britain, development of a financial district and the massive Media City Project in co-operation with the BBC, I am trying to assess (with the help of the a.net community) whether airlines like BA and BMI are making a mistake by giving up too early.

I have placed pictures and videos to portray the extent and significance of Manchester's plans to make the city one of the most important in Europe and how these plans will impact aviation in the city.
 
jonnywishbone
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:08 am

Concorde001,

I am a company director, in charge of what I spend and where I go... I love MAN, both the airport and the city, but am dismayed at the inability of a UK airline to do make it a decent hub. I compare it to the great job LH have made of MUC, which is a much more pleasurable transiting experience than FRA and I am somewhat dispondent.

I had such high hopes, as we all did, of BMI making it their hub, with a fleet of A330s and a high class service, but with more business models than aircraft and a management that have not got a clue, this has clearly gone nowhere!

I have friends who are highly involved in developing Manchester and are looking at developing Barton as a 'City Airport', what a waste of time... This sort of petty scheme will harm MAN, not help it!

Where do I go... China, Brazil, US lots, but with a direct service, i'm sure i'd be the only person on board!!! At the moment, if I travel to PVG, I buy a ticket in BRU on BA thru LHR for £ 1600 in club, then get a cheapie to BRU. This way I get the best bed in the sky for £ 3500 cheaper than a MAN-LHR-PVG ticket. The only downside for more point to point Manchester traffic is that fares will be sky high. The MAN-ORD fares are the most expensive on AA's website if you want a straight O&D ticket. If we can attract the likes of NZ to do a reasonably priced direct service to PVG or HKG, I think there will be some serious take up by Northern businessmen who have more money than sense!

As has been suggested before, I cannot see why the likes of Virgin or BMI cant open up some new destinations as 2 or 3 times a week flights and not make them work, eg LAX, SFO, MIA, HKG, JNB, BOM.

As you say, the next few years will be interesting for MAN, all the development will only help the airport, not hinder it, but it needs a forward thinking management team as well as forward thinking airlines to make the bugger work!
 
Concorde001
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:28 am

Thanks for your comments JonnyWishbone.

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 6):
Where do I go... China, Brazil, US lots, but with a direct service, i'm sure i'd be the only person on board!!!

That is interesting....why do you say that? Do you think this will change once Media City and other aspects of the city are developed by 2011?

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 6):
At the moment, if I travel to PVG, I buy a ticket in BRU on BA thru LHR for £ 1600 in club, then get a cheapie to BRU. This way I get the best bed in the sky for £ 3500 cheaper than a MAN-LHR-PVG ticket. The only downside for more point to point Manchester traffic is that fares will be sky high.

I can see you like a bargain!  Wink But if most business travellers are doing this, I can perhaps see why Manchester is a low yielding city for airlines - airlines like $$$! I think it is always the case that direct services always charge more than connections.

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 6):
The MAN-ORD fares are the most expensive on AA's website if you want a straight O&D ticket. If we can attract the likes of NZ to do a reasonably priced direct service to PVG or HKG, I think there will be some serious take up by Northern businessmen who have more money than sense!

I have heard on a.net that AA's MAN-ORD flight is its most profitable and this helps explain why! As for attracting the likes of NZ to introduce reasonably priced air tickets, I'm not convinced! Airlines are in the business to make the highest possible profit, so if the market allows them to charge high fares like AA, then they will come to Manchester and charge high fares. Maybe that is the current problem with Manchester? Do you think this will change once Media City UK and other developments have been completed?
 
Humberside
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 4):
Even some of our established more leisure oriented airlines have suffered, with Norwegian and Air Baltic also now pulling out.

Norweigan are flying to BGO arent still aren't they?
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
jonnywishbone
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:33 am

Dont be calling me tight Concorde001!!!

Let's be brutally honest.... The vast majority of Club transfer passengers thru LHR are on dicount J tickets like me. All the big companies on direct flights are buying them at £ 1800, not the £ 5000 BA and others crave for... It's just the poor small businessman who pays full whack as he aint got the buying power, unless he wants to travel like a sardine on KLM with half a plane load of yaks on a 747 combi!

Nobody pays £ 4000 to go to Oz, NZ or the rest of the world on Emirates, yet they're chock a block and making money (not a good airline though) and I am sure will go 3x daily soon. Travelled on Qatar before Christmas... 90% full and £ 1400 to the Maldives on an 'almost' flat bed. You dont have to pay top whack to make money, but you DO need a good hub and spoke network to make the thing work.

After Media city and the new casino opens, will it make a difference??? Hmm, well that's in the marketing. It's more likely to mean even more crammed trains and no chance of cabin crew going standby on the shuttle, who knows whether it will make a difference internationally... It all depends whether the visiting Spanish businessman can sit in a bit of comfort from Barcelona, without worrying whether or not his suit is getting crumpled by a plethora of tax free booze, oversized sombreros and stuffed donkeys!!

J
 
Concorde001
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:11 pm

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 4):
Britain can only benefit from having two economic powerhouses that can compete on a global scale, these being London and Manchester (with Leeds and Liverpool).

I agree, though I think Bristol and Cardiff along with Glasgow and Edinburgh also have serious potential.

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 9):
Dont be calling me tight Concorde001!!!

I wouldn't dream of it -£1800 is certainly not cheap. My apolgies if any offence was caused  

Incidentally there is more good news for Manchester as Yahoo has opened an office in the city, similar to Google's move in 2005. One can only assume that with the arrival of Media City, more and more businesses, particulalry IT and media companies will flock to Manchester - this can only be good news for the airport and possibility of new services from the city.

[Edited 2007-02-08 12:12:22]
 
gayrugbyman
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting Humberside (Reply 8):
Even some of our established more leisure oriented airlines have suffered, with Norwegian and Air Baltic also now pulling out.

That is totally factually wrong. Air Berlin are increasing HAM services this summer and the STN route is running at a profit as is PAD and Norwegian have just announced their intention to continue their very popular BGO service through the summer!
 
Candid76
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:58 pm

Well it wasn't factually wrong when I posted it GRM. As of today the Bergen service may have been reinstated for the summer, but I can assure you that they had decided to end it (but they have said that before!).
 
Concorde001
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:12 am

Thanks for all your posts guys...keep them coming!

Going back to the issue of Manchester's regeneration and the impact on aviation in the city, I have just been reading that when Dubai opened its very own Media City a few years ago (2002?), the likes of CNN and Reuters established large bases in the area. Does anyone know what kind of impact this has had on the level of Dubai's point to point traffic? If I'm not mistaken, the more Dubai has developed itself and diversified its economy, more and more people come to Dubai on business, rather than use the place as a transit area for Emirates! Is Virgin's entry on the LHR-DXB sector and the Delta's entry on the ATL-DXB sector proof of this?

If Media City UK is successful, could we see a similar story in Manchester? If I'm not mistaken, Manchester will be one of the largest purpose built media cities in Europe with a large cluster of businesses all operating in one area - if the likes of CNN and Reuters established themselves in this area (BBC and ITV will be) surely this will create demand for new routes from MAN?
 
Demoose
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:39 am

Well the BBC did a survey this week to see which UK city people regard as second after London, in the past it was always thought to be Birmingham, but this survey showed Manchester is now considered to be the UK's second city.

The survey is reported here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6349501.stm

Mark
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stirling
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:25 am

I don't expect anyone to read all 81 pages of this report, however it is a good place to start when looking at the evolution/devolution England.

http://www.campus.ncl.ac.uk/unbs/hylife2/lib/files/5202Lyons.pdf

The governments plan to decentralise its activities, will I believe, have an even greater impact on cities such as Manchester than anything the public sector could muster. One of the strongest suits London brings to the table is its size...people. People who are most likely employed by the crown. The thinking is, spread these folks out to better utilise the infrastructure in place elsewhere, but going unused.

The other side of this is that London is approaching saturation. This isn't 1980, when the Docklands represented an enormous addition of property to the city. (Anyone remember the film "Long Good Friday"?, when Bob Hoskins is standing out in the empty docks...saying that the area was going to be biggest thing to ever happen to London.)
And even if the city did come across a swath of a couple hundred acres to redevelop....could the city realistically absorb anymore people?

Decentralising the government is not something they want to do, but rather something they are being forced to do. A major crime lab was recently relocated to Birmingham...thousands of more are still on the table...to all over, the Southwest, Midlands, Northeast....you name it.

For centuries there has been an awful lot of ego involved in things....efforts to keep London as the "Capital of the World", so, while there was room, more and more was shoe-horned in. The party is now over, and the time is now to address London's gluttony.
Will all this hurt London? I don't think so. If anything, it will make the country stronger, more efficient.
As for aviation, new terminals and all, Heathrow can build terminals 6, 7, 8, and 9 if they like, but until they stomach the reality that some folks will need to be relocated and build another runway, London cannot be the European Hub they feel it should be.

Enter: Manchester.
Things might be bleak now, but remember, aviation moves slowly....that is when it comes to positive change. Sure, on the surface, events may appear to be moving at the speed of light, with airlines coming and going with all-too frequent regularity; these events however should not be seen as indicators of where the airport is headed for in the future.

Example: New York.
One only need look to NYC and see how it has taken 40 years for the situation to evolve. Once upon a time, the only way to leave the nation for Europe was through NYC....now, major gateways have popped up in places no one would have imagined 25 years ago; Atlanta, Washington, Philadelphia...
The same will happen in England.
I am talking about full-fledged international gateways, well-beyond the scope of the present situation of airports like Manchester offering a smattering of destinations spread amongst a handful of airlines, that cater to the lowest segment of the market place.

This is where the government's dencentralisation plan comes in. Even if the destination isn't centre-city Manchester, any relocations within 75kms will benefit the whole. Good paying jobs, the businesses they incubate, the cycle of cash-flow will turn over several times and reach many hands.....those hands will then do what they are trained to do....plan for holiday travel. (A national past-time!)
It's a base, a jumping off point, just as the parade of discounters is now...What it leads to is training future generations to expect, demand, and justify better air service for Manchester.
Your parents, and their parents grew up in a generation when the only way to leave the UK, was by way of London. Yes, a few flights existed from secondary England airports but they were few and far between.
Ironically, one of the largest offerers of International travel bypassing London, was British Midland...BMI.

As to where they went wrong? I can't sum it up any better than this:

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 6):
with more business models than aircraft and a management that have not got a clue

Why BMI felt the need to grapple with British Airways in London is a debate with no winners or losers.
But given BA's aversion, almost phobic handsoff approach to the hinterland, BMI had the hinterland to themselves....granted, things were not so great back then in the days of Thatcher-Privatisation either.
But as the saying goes, hindsight is 20/20.

Well, apologies for the long-winded nature of this post. Suffice to say.....
My crystal ball sees a nice future for Manchester. If Germany can have several world-class cities, (Frankfurt, Munich, Berlin), or Spain (Madrid, Barcelona), and even confused Italy (Roma, Milano), why can't the English? All it will take is a mass-changing of the collective national mindset, and that is, London is not interchangeable with England, the United Kingdom, or Great Britain....London is just a slice, a big bloated piece of an even bigger pie. It is time to spread the wealth.
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philb
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 15):
Your parents, and their parents grew up in a generation when the only way to leave the UK, was by way of London. Yes, a few flights existed from secondary England airports but they were few and far between.
Ironically, one of the largest offerers of International travel bypassing London, was British Midland...BMI.

That's not specifically true. Until the mid 1960s the main ways of leaving the UK were by passenger ferry from Dover/Folkestone and Harwich into Europe or from Southampton and Liverpool by ocean going liner for destinations further afield.

Heathrow then quickly overtook the sea ports as air fares decreased in real terms as a proportion of income.

Manchester had daily BOAC and Later BA flights to NYC, Montreal and Toronto from the early 1960s as well as an extensive fifth freedom Aer Lingus network into Europe from around 1956 to the early 1970s plus BEA and other airline routes (Air France, Sabena and KLM for instance on a daily basis) from the 1950s.

BMI (previously British Midland and Derby Aviation) has never had a worthwhile network to Europe and beyond bypassing London. In fact, its slot position at Heathrow generates far too much traffic to Heathrow from the provinces.
 
MAS777
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:42 pm

Let's not forget that Manchester United continues to have its largest fan base in Malaysia and their 'Reds Bar' in Central KL continues to beam live matches to ardent fans...

 
MAS777
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:43 pm

Quoting MAS777 (Reply 17):
Let's not forget that Manchester United continues to have its largest fan base in Malaysia and their 'Reds Bar' in Central KL continues to beam live matches to ardent fans...

sorry forgot to add the pic...


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Concorde001
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting Demoose (Reply 14):
Well the BBC did a survey this week to see which UK city people regard as second after London, in the past it was always thought to be Birmingham, but this survey showed Manchester is now considered to be the UK's second city.

It was very interesting to hear,and I agree with it too. Manchester has a rich history of great culture,music,sport, industry and politics.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 15):
Decentralising the government is not something they want to do,

Thanks for your post Stirling.The government is not going far enough - Britain really needs federalism, everything is still far too London centric.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 15):
My crystal ball sees a nice future for Manchester. If Germany can have several world-class cities, (Frankfurt, Munich, Berlin), or Spain (Madrid, Barcelona), and even confused Italy (Roma, Milano), why can't the English? All it will take is a mass-changing of the collective national mindset, and that is, London is not interchangeable with England, the United Kingdom, or Great Britain....London is just a slice, a big bloated piece of an even bigger pie. It is time to spread the wealth.

Germany, Spain and Italy are federal/decentralised nations, Britain is not. In my view, Britain cannot have the multiple industrial and economic powerhouses that Germany enjoys (Frankfurt, Munich, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Dusselforf etc) without meaningful decentralisation of economic power to Britain's regions. Even the current devolution in Scotland and Wales is not good enough because it simply gives the executive in each to have the majority of power once enjoyed by Westminster. It is the same 'top-down' approach which benefits some parts of the country and hurts the other - for example, just look at Edinburgh and Glasgow, and back in the days before the Greater London Authority and Mayoral powers, London and rest of the country.

For example, if Edinburgh and the Lothians were granted the type of power enjoyed by the Greater London Authority (arguably even more powers, the like of which London is currently demanding from the Government), which would allow full responsibility for economic development, transport etc, this part of eastern Scotland would be revolutionised. Just imagine if Glasgow, Manchester and Lancashire, York and Yorkshire, Bristol and Cardiff with similar powers within a federal structure...Britain would be a much better place, economically, politically and above all and most importantly, in terms of aviation!!!!!  Wink
 
Concorde001
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:53 am

Just read that world casino giants Harrah's Entertainment and Las Vegas Sands (both headquartered in LAS) are eyeing and bidding for a multi-million pound contract to build and operate Manchester's and Britain's first Supercasino! This might be good news for more flights to LAS from MAN, especially business travel, especially considering the amounts of money each company is looking to spend:

Sands it looking at spending £390 million (about $700 million) developing Manchester and Hurrah's about half that amount.

Source: Sky News

This might be good news for BMI who fly MAN-LAS thrice weekly.
 
jonnywishbone
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:11 am

Knowing BMI, they'll probably drop the route now, leaving it to Globespan or something!!!
 
oly720man
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 20):
This might be good news for more flights to LAS from MAN, especially business travel, especially considering the amounts of money each company is looking to spend:

I can't see it making a lot of difference. One casino in Manchester is hardly likely to increase traffic to Las Vegas.

I don't frequent casinos so I don't have a feel for the clientele, but I'm not even sure the major gamblers Europe/Middle East will be beating a path to the NW of England when there are probably better and more exclusive establishments in other major cities around Europe. Otherwise is one big casino going to be a big tourist draw?
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Humberside
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 19):
For example, if Edinburgh and the Lothians were granted the type of power enjoyed by the Greater London Authority (arguably even more powers, the like of which London is currently demanding from the Government), which would allow full responsibility for economic development, transport etc, this part of eastern Scotland would be revolutionised. Just imagine if Glasgow, Manchester and Lancashire, York and Yorkshire, Bristol and Cardiff with similar powers within a federal structure...Britain would be a much better place, economically, politically and above all and most importantly, in terms of aviation!!!!!

It might happen - we know regional asemblies (sadly IMO) didn't go down well but the latest idea is city regions - possibly even with 'super councils' covering them. Would be similar to the Greater London Authority. It just talk but in an few years time we could get something like you are suggesting
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Concorde001
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 21):
Knowing BMI, they'll probably drop the route now, leaving it to Globespan or something!!!

 rotfl 

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 22):
I can't see it making a lot of difference. One casino in Manchester is hardly likely to increase traffic to Las Vegas.

I don't frequent casinos so I don't have a feel for the clientele, but I'm not even sure the major gamblers Europe/Middle East will be beating a path to the NW of England when there are probably better and more exclusive establishments in other major cities around Europe. Otherwise is one big casino going to be a big tourist draw?

Possibly, but depending on the size of the development (£390 million is alot of money), you never know. If I'm not mistaken, Manchester's super casino complex will be one of the largest in Europe, so the city may draw alot of visitors from within the UK and Europe. Coupled with the amazing Media City UK complex, there could be a boost to Manchester's air travel market.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 23):
It might happen - we know regional asemblies (sadly IMO) didn't go down well but the latest idea is city regions - possibly even with 'super councils' covering them. Would be similar to the Greater London Authority. It just talk but in an few years time we could get something like you are suggesting

I think regional assemblies were a bad idea. The government just decided to merge together historical areas of Britain into boring and artificial areas such as 'The North East' and gave them limited powers! Something better would have been the county of York as a federal state/county, along with Lancashire, Northumberland etc! These areas have a strong identity, culture and long history.
In Britain we need uniformity of powers, not the current dogs' dinner of a constitutional arrangement where important questions such as the West Lothian remain unanswered and the potential of our country to be even more economically and culturally developed being lost and not being realised. Not to mention the fact that our country may be torn apart!
 
Humberside
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:01 pm

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 24):
I think regional assemblies were a bad idea. The government just decided to merge together historical areas of Britain into boring and artificial areas such as 'The North East' and gave them limited powers! Something better would have been the county of York as a federal state/county, along with Lancashire, Northumberland etc! These areas have a strong identity, culture and long history.

Problem is historical boundaries aren't always the most suitable now,. Take Middlesborough. Historically part of Yorkshire but it makes for sense to group it with Stockton/Hartlepool/Darlington/Durham/Tyneside than it does with York, Leeds and Sheffield
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stirling
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 16):
That's not specifically true. Until the mid 1960s the main ways of leaving the UK were by passenger ferry from Dover/Folkestone and Harwich into Europe or from Southampton and Liverpool by ocean going liner for destinations further afield.

My comment was in an aviation context....off course, being an island, ports of entry/departure ringed the nation.

Quoting Philb (Reply 16):
BMI (previously British Midland and Derby Aviation) has never had a worthwhile network to Europe and beyond bypassing London.

But it was there nonetheless: providing an alternative....a bypass of London.
Anyway, it reinforces the point, with the exception of a few destinations having been on offer from non-London airports, the lion's-share of airline traffic has traditionally gone by way of Heathrow or Gatwick. Up to now.

I see the coming years as very exciting for Manchester and the surrounding urban complex.
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philb
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 26):
But it was there nonetheless: providing an alternative....a bypass of London.
Anyway, it reinforces the point, with the exception of a few destinations having been on offer from non-London airports, the lion's-share of airline traffic has traditionally gone by way of Heathrow or Gatwick. Up to now.

I think the term "lions share" is debateable. In the 1960s and 1970s yes, but from the 1980s, the balance has been constantly moving in favour of provincial airports, though it still has a long way to go to parity, with Manchester leading the way until the advent of the LCCs which are showing massive growth at places such as Liverpool and Bristol, tapping new business which would never have flown (apart from on package holidays).
.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 26):
I see the coming years as very exciting for Manchester and the surrounding urban complex.

Totally agree. Having spent a proportion of my working life in charge of bringing incoming business and leisure travel to Manchester, having worked hard on promoting the area and the airport and been a member of committees dedicated to airport growth at Manchester and Liverpool, what is happening today is the fruit of nearly thirty years hard work by myself, my own team, colleagues in parallel and complementary bodies and our successors.

I hope to live long enough to see Manchester truly become Britain's #2 city in every respect, not the least aviation.
 
gayrugbyman
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 27):
not the least aviation.

I would say it already is.

I think by 2010 MAN will certainly have services to PEK, LAX, BKK, BOM, SVO, PVG, KUL, SYD, LOS and AKL, all essential for it to grow as a hub.

10 years ago, who would have thought we would be dealing with flights from DOH, DAC, AUH, CPT, TIP, DAM, RAK, LAS, UVF and ANU?

MAN has come on leaps and bounds and considering it is so near to a low-cost centre like LPL I reckon it's doing pretty good!
 
philb
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting GayrugbyMAN (Reply 28):
I think by 2010 MAN will certainly have services to PEK, LAX, BKK, BOM, SVO, PVG, KUL, SYD, LOS and AKL, all essential for it to grow as a hub.

Between 15 and 25 years ago it had services to LAX, BOM, SVO, KUL and SYD but either commercial factors or lack of real commitment caused them to fail.
 
gayrugbyman
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:40 am

But we now know that the key to all this is the introduction of aircraft such as the 787.

Plus many of those services were merely add-ons to LHR services, and now those slots at LHR are like chicken teeth, the carriers like QF and SA decided to make use of them in other ways.

We know BA have never had a commitment to MAN, so they are pretty irrelevant as regards long haul.

It's good to see GSM dipping its toe in to the waters of scheduled long-haul from MAN. Shame tey can't get the JNB service up before the autumn as I am convinced this will be a winner.


I have heard from some GSM sources that they are also have India in their sights from MAN.
 
philb
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting GayrugbyMAN (Reply 30):
Plus many of those services were merely add-ons to LHR services, and now those slots at LHR are like chicken teeth, the carriers like QF and SA decided to make use of them in other ways.

That's not totally true. SVO was direct with Aeroflot and had connections to India and BKK, LAX was originally direct with Laker and later operated 90% full with BA who can't work out how to operate without a full Business or First Class long haul.

BA used Bombay as a stopover to Hong Kong and Air India were on the route as short a time as 10 years ago and couldn't make it pay with an A310.

Sydney was served via Paris, Frankfurt and Zurich at various times and QF were only made to terminate a service in Manchester via London when, guess who?, none other than BA bought a major stake in QF. The stop in London was its death knell - as BA knew it would be. This is one service that is sustainable, and always was, if London is avoided.

How much the KUL service's demise was the result of a basket case Malaysian or because of poor revenue has yet to be proved. South African hasn't exactly rushed to return now it has enough equipment - the excuse for withdrawing - and never operated via London and Cathay, also an airline that never served Manchester via London, now have enough freighters to not need to make a few extra bob filling a passenger deck.

These are hard facts and the arrival of the 787 won't solve them all - I only wish it would.

Manchester has been the victim of years of disinterest by Imperial, BEA, BOAC, BA and governments of all complexions at the time when they held the whip hand, when fifth freedoms were hard to win and hold and when route and revenue share between state owned airlines were sorted in smoke filled committee rooms and routes outside of London were held back to build up Heathrow. Sabena was one airline that persuaded its government to buck the norm but even that airline's pioneering at Manchester was eventually stopped by BOAC.

In a free market Manchester would have matured as a hub years ago. I remember a number of meetings in the 1970s and 1980s when the attitude of government and BA representatives left us nonplussed as to their way of thinking.

The airport archive has the minutes of the Airport Committee going back to the 1930s as well as correspondence between the airport management and airlines and government.

A great deal of it makes very interesting and informative reading, not just in an aviation context but in terms of how the UK is seen from the point of view of those in control in London.
 
jonnywishbone
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:22 am

Beast of a reply Phil.... As far as AI are concerned, would you want to go to DEL via FCO and I think DXB... No wonder it was doomed - Only Biman would consider such a laborious journey!

Mind you, I believe they served a cracking Madras on the Rome leg!

J
 
philb
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 32):
As far as AI are concerned, would you want to go to DEL via FCO and I think DXB... No wonder it was doomed - Only Biman would consider such a laborious journey!

Once again the excuse was lack of equipment. AI wanted to serve both but could not fill a 747 to either nor had they enough A310s to serve both separately. They had hoped to capitalise on BA's withdrawal on the route and build up a Manchester clientele but their hearts were - and still are - in Birmingham and not enough effort was put in to grow the traffic.

I don't think the DXB stop was a regular fixture though I may be wrong.
 
stirling
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:44 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 29):
Between 15 and 25 years ago it had services to LAX, BOM, SVO, KUL and SYD but either commercial factors or lack of real commitment caused them to fail



Quoting GayrugbyMAN (Reply 30):
But we now know that the key to all this is the introduction of aircraft such as the 787.

I hope. What if the routes to LAX, BOM, KUL, and SYD were operated back then by a 787, would it have made a difference? (I left out SVO since it is a mere 1600 nm from MAN)

Not sure I buy into this hype that the 787 is going to be opening routes up all over the planet.
Maybe few...but how many routes will the 787 accomplish that the A330 and 767 cannot? Sure the 787 is billed with stellar economies, bold for a plane to even be assembled yet.
The 787 will open up new routes, almost every new aircraft has done throughout the history of aviation, but not at first. I say this because I don't what MAN-FANS to reach 787 EIS (Entry into Service) and expect all these new routes to all of a sudden appear; like MAN-LAX/SFO, MAN-CPT, MAN-PER/SYD/MEL, MAN-NGO, MAN-HNL, MAN-BLR/MAA, MAN-PVG, MAN-PHX.
(That goes for the A350 as well since both aircraft at this point at times occupy the same breath.)


As I have stated previously, the Media City and Casino projects are great for Manchester, but can not come close to delivering the impact that continued "Devolution" of the English government can offer.
The only hinderance in the case of Manchester might encounter is not so much the availability of land, but the acquisition of such. I saw some Manchester propertuy values and resales, and I was pleasantly surprised....but this was old data, from 2004.

Beware: Random Thoughts ahead:
Lets say the Ministry of Cat Toys and Natural Bio-degrabable Disinfectants and Compost Heaps is slated to remove their 178 year old headquarters, and their 2,000 people from London.
Because the heavy concentration of Cat Toy makers in Manchester, along with the disinfectant industry having their natioal trade association headquarters nearby....the obvious choise is Manchester.

But when sites are scouted, they find property values are three times that what they've budgeted.
Enter Preston.
They have a prime central business district location, that the council will renovate to suit, space for all 2,000 workers, close to shops, housing and high-rated schools....and to top it off, the price to acquire land and building, costs half what they expected in Manchester.

The MCTNBDDCH moves to Preston. Instantly raising the fortunes of the local economy all around, unemployment drops to lowest in 50 years.....Increased attendance at the local FC brings increased ad revenue, so they can now afford better players, resulting in the Preston North Enders landing themselves in the EPL!
Devolution is good for all!


OK,   I might have lost some of you there....

The basic point is that London as been the head of everything for way too long, bringing an artificial importance to city.
The sticky part will be finding room in a mature city like Manchester. They will most likely be forced to a suburban/regional locale, unless a gem of unused property goes for want in central Manchester.

The devolution will most like benefit smaller cities such as Plymouth, Bristol, Norwich, Middlesbrough and Leeds; and/or cities that could use a shot in the arm after a major employer dissolves....such as Luton. This is not to say these Devolved ministries and government offices will need to hire; at least the council will be able to replace the tax on the books. Any benefit in any Devolution moves has solely an indirect effect.

Maybe, a home property renovation ensues, people to the area locating in "fixer-uppers", which has the by-product of requiring an increase to the skilled trades; landscapers, carpenters, plumbers, etc. Jobs displaced Vauxhall workers could retrain for with ease.
Then of course there are going to be men like the "Cheese Minister", who has been in the department for 80 years, and vows never to leave his Westminster digs....

What remains is the questions of those places that for whatever reason are no involved in the process. How do they survive? Will they survive in the new England....where Westminster is an icon only, business gets down all over the nation now....If the town around Stouching Bridge have all had major government offices relocate to them, does Stouching Bridge
decline even further.

I see I have rambled a little bit more than I should!!! (Sleeping pill is kicking in making me loopy)

[Edited 2007-02-19 03:51:07]
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LAXdude1023
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:06 pm

Out of Curiosity, why would BMI fly MAN-LAS as opposed to MAN-LAX? It doesnt really make sense to me.
It is what it is...
 
gayrugbyman
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:45 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 35):
Out of Curiosity, why would BMI fly MAN-LAS as opposed to MAN-LAX? It doesnt really make sense to me.

Because they are heavily linked in with holiday companues such as Virgin Holidays and Kuoni to offer package holidays to Las Vegas for casino-hungry Brits! It;s a very very lucrative operation for them and they do carry a fair amount of connetion traffic too both through LAS to cities such as LAX and through MAN to GLA, EDI, LHR and ABZ.
 
David_itl
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 34):
What if the routes to LAX, BOM, KUL, and SYD were operated back then by a 787

Interestingly enough, Jetstar is apparently keen to start MAN ops to SYD as and when they get their 787s; if MAN-Australia is allegedly worth in excess of 150,000 passengers a year and the majority of them using EK and SQ (and not forgetting the likelihood of QR and EY ops to Australia from their hubs), then they (QF group) must be pretty keen to get hold of the revenue (no matter how thin the potential yield may be).


What would significant if a British airline were to start various long-haul routes ex-MAN using "new" aircraft; obviously BD is the candidate given the extensive domestic operation they have in place already. Not all the routes would have tobe daily, but the biggest drawback may be bilateral agreements and/or "free" slots at various airports.
LAX may be doable as a 2 or 3 weekly operation. BOM (or DEL) similar frequency (AI did have 70% loads, don't know how many passengers were actually donig FCO-MAN-FCO though!). MAN_CPT already being done with JNB to start in winter. China and/or Japan may be dependent on getting 5th freedom rights through another "underserved" airport.
 
jonnywishbone
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:43 pm

BMI would be the 'obvoius' choice, were their management capable of making a sensible decision! However, timing is of the essence... By letting Globespan get a grip of these 2 or 3 times weekly destinations, there is a risk of these routes becoming fragmented between numerous carriers, when if BMI had grasped the bull by the horns, they would have had a nice little operation out of MAN by 2010, hub and spoking out to every UK provincial airport and using Star Codeshares to the rest of Europe.

But what do I know?
 
cornish
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting David_itl (Reply 37):
Interestingly enough, Jetstar is apparently keen to start MAN ops to SYD as and when they get their 787s; if MAN-Australia is allegedly worth in excess of 150,000 passengers a year and the majority of them using EK and SQ (and not forgetting the likelihood of QR and EY ops to Australia from their hubs), then they (QF group) must be pretty keen to get hold of the revenue (no matter how thin the potential yield may be).

"Apparently" being what source exactly? While the 787 is shaping up to be an excellent aircraft, I'm not convinced that Australia to somewhere as far as MAN will add up at budget prices. Thats one hell of a way on a relatively small aircraft to make the route work - i think prices would have to be so high as to make it more sensible to fly down to LHR and get on a QF flight. I struggle to see how somewhere that far could work with such a small aircraft on what is supposed to be a budget carrier - its not knocking MAN, but i just can't see the economics working.

Bmi have had the chance to go long haul from MAN before, but simply aren't interested. They were close to going to JNB in the past, but pulled out late when they got India and claimed they couldn't get agreement with the crews to fly to SA  Yeah sure

Bmi's focus now is very much Middle East routes. They are looking at a number of points in the region, and currently all as LHR routes.



MAN's problem as has been highlighted numerous times before is one of yields. Yes the city is becoming more prosperous, but it is still a long way from becoming a major business/high yield market in a global sense. It has a niche, a good one at that, and will continue to develop, but despite such developments as the media city, etc, it won't fundamentally change the market.

Its a great city and it really has improved beyond recognition, but London will remain the focus of the UK airline industry on a global scale. I know people point to FRA and MUC as two major hubs in a realtively small country, but MUC is a far wealthier and much more important business centre (HQ wise) than MAN. MAN is still much more of a regional office location than a global office location, and while that might change in the future, at the present time it is not economically on the level of MUC, nor with the wealthier hinterland of Bavaria, Norther Switzerland and Austria to call on.


The media city will help the perception of MAN, as will the casino, but it won't fundamentally change the whole dynamic of the market. MAN is booming, but it sadly still struggles to attract new long haul service from major airlines. The Gulf carriers are certainly mopping up, as they are in so many other markets, and certainly eastbound it may well scare off more carriers than attract.

The likes of Globespan developing a long haul network from MAN is a smart move however. Its an excellent opportunity for them and for MAN to develop those links they desire and at a cost basis which makes it viable. And if the likes of Globespan can't make certain markets work then it suggests the legacy carriers would have even less chance on those niche/borderline markets too. Hopefully they can prosper and give a long haul network of routes out of MAN that gives a fantastic choice for the passengers in the NW.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
philb
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 39):
Reply 39,

That's an excellent and very realistic summation
 
mainMAN
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:34 pm

This is an excellent thread, but it doesn't take into consideration the urban areas surrounding Manchester. The premise of 'The Northern Way' is that by increasing regional GVA to the same level of that of the South East (or at least to the national average), the economic level of MAN's catchment could be on a par with that of MUC in future. After decades of political and economic centralism, a reversal is now government policy and the effects are still in their infancy. Give it another 10 or 20 years, and we'll see.......

Quoting Cornish (Reply 39):
The Gulf carriers are certainly mopping up, as they are in so many other markets, and certainly eastbound it may well scare off more carriers than attract.

True, and as I periodically say on here, MAN is a remarkable regional EU airport by way of the sheer variety of its established long-haul links. With EK, QR, EY, PK, BA, BD, AA, DL, US, SQ and CO as the primary carriers, there will in time be an expansion to other viable destinations, or rather the few that are left that are not already served.
 
cornish
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting MainMAN (Reply 41):
This is an excellent thread, but it doesn't take into consideration the urban areas surrounding Manchester. The premise of 'The Northern Way' is that by increasing regional GVA to the same level of that of the South East (or at least to the national average), the economic level of MAN's catchment could be on a par with that of MUC in future. After decades of political and economic centralism, a reversal is now government policy and the effects are still in their infancy. Give it another 10 or 20 years, and we'll see.......

Maybe, but it still has a long way to go. MUC's catchment area is right at the top level of the EU tree economically. And remember this is while Germany has been in recession for the last few years - although the signs are they are starting to come out of it.

And this is my BIG worry with MAN (and other regional UK airports growing their long haul services). Manchester has been riding high on an economic boom both in the UK, and especially the region. Textbook economics suggest this cannot last, and we will at some point should expect a recession of some sort in the way that economic cycles always follow. When this comes (whenever it will be) will MAN and other regional airports be able to maintain many of these long haul services (short haul and the LCCs are not really an issue) or will they be cut by carriers feeling the pinch in a more depressed market. Moving away from MAN for a moment, would we see many of those routes that are propped up by route development funding disappear as money is diverted elsewhere and the carriers can't make them work as a standalone venture....

Sorry to sound negative here, but any half decent airport should be able to add worthwhile services during economic good times. The REAL sign of Manchester's prosperity is if they can keep them when times (inevitably at some stage in the future) take a downward turn....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
philb
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:07 am

Of course what many people don't realise is that, for over 40 years now, the population within a 75 mile radius of Manchester has been within a quarter of a million of that within a 75 mile radius of Charing Cross, the Wilmslow/Alderley/Alderley Edge area has the highest concentration of affluence in the UK and, even prior to the Media City and Casino developments, the Manchester/Liverpool/Bradford/Leeds corridor has seen a greater increase in available expendable domestic income than anywhere else in the UK, even given the deprivation of areas such as Harpurhey, Kirkby and Seacroft.

So why is MAN struggling to provide high yield pax? Perhaps good northern common sense (some call it tight fistedness) that realises though 8 or 10 hours in Y class may be less comfortable it's a darn sight cheaper, the passenger gets there at the same time and the savings made can be put to good use elsewhere  Smile  Smile
 
cornish
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 43):

Very true Phil, but surely the real problem is the lack of high yield passengers from elsewhere flying INTO MAN. That is one advantage LON certainly has in spades, in that while there are plenty of high yield passengers originating from the South East (and the whole of the UK connecting through for that matter), there is also a fantastically high market for high yielding passengers from elsewhere to fly into London - whether that be as high end tourists or business traffic.And lets be honest, its one of the best in the world in that respect. That is something that MAN for all its merits simply doesn't have - and gets us back to the point that its just not got a high enough profile on the global map - yet.

But really the high yield market is much more reliant on business than personal travel, and it highlights that what MAN needs is more global or european HQs based in the region than merely regional offices and the like. Once that gets nailed - far more important than casino developments in terms of the aviation market in MAN, then the high yields will come. While the NW is certainly improving in that area (as are many of the UK's big regional cities), it still has a long way to go before it will truly impact the air service network out of MAN, not to mention sustain MAN's economic growth for the future.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 43):
the Wilmslow/Alderley/Alderley Edge area has the highest concentration of affluence in the UK



Quoting Philb (Reply 43):
Perhaps good northern common sense (some call it tight fistedness) that realises though 8 or 10 hours in Y class may be less comfortable it's a darn sight cheaper, the passenger gets there at the same time and the savings made can be put to good use elsewhere

Ah now that I doubt - the Cheshire set, along with the Essex set like to flaunt their wealth, no matter in how much dubious taste, more than anyone else in this country it seems  Wink

New Money - eeeugh  snooty 
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
philb
Posts: 2645
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 45):
Ah now that I doubt - the Cheshire set, along with the Essex set like to flaunt their wealth, no matter in how much dubious taste, more than anyone else in this country it seems

Possibly true!!

Quoting Cornish (Reply 44):
But really the high yield market is much more reliant on business than personal travel, and it highlights that what MAN needs is more global or european HQs based in the region than merely regional offices and the like

That's brought something back to me. In the late 1960s I was the Northern Area rep for a company based in Reading. The MD was a certain Basil Tarrant - you may be aware of his offspring, Chris. Anyway, one day he was questioning just why the Manchester//Liverpool/Leeds area didn't yield as much revenue as the Home Counties, given the amount of industry in the area at the time. Now Bas was by no means stupid but he'd never spent time on the ground in the area and admitted he rarely looked at the detail of orders, just the yield. It hadn't occurred to him that many of the premises on my territory from which I never received orders were using our products (companies like GEC, English Electric, Hawker Siddeley, BICC etc.) ordered from Head Offices in the Home Counties, delivered onto my territory but credited to the Southern Area Rep. After that meeting, some things were changed. I wish it werre as simple to build traffic from MAN.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:02 am

"True, and as I periodically say on here, MAN is a remarkable regional EU airport by way of the sheer variety of its established long-haul links. With EK, QR, EY, PK, BA, BD, AA, DL, US, SQ and CO as the primary carriers, there will in time be an expansion to other viable destinations, or rather the few that are left that are not already served."

Exactly. Like all MAN users I am dissapointed with the lack of growth at the airport, but when at SIN recently, MAN was the only lonfhaul flight on the board leaving to a non-capital city (including major financial centres eg. FRA, MEL, SYD).

I don't know about you, but I say that If you look at the picture the other way...

I recently collected a business partner based in our Dublin offices up from MAN. He came out spluttering: He had seen a flight from LAS! (bearing mind DUB is a glorified MME - though it is improving) Then when I told it was a scheduled flight, not a Charter - he wouldn't beleive me.

Really MAN has LOADS of flights
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
jonnywishbone
Posts: 103
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:53 pm

There are some great answers on this thread and to add my two penneth as a 'tight fisted' northerner, a company director that travels worldwide in J class.....

There has to be a market for longhaul direct services, with a BMI style flat bed small J cabin and the remainder filled with Y. The problem with the likes of Globespan starting these services is that I would not DREAM of using them as a business product. At the end of the day, whilst I applaud their thought process, seeing a gap in the market, they have the appearance of a charter or Low Cost operation - why would I use them for business to Canada or South Africa (or all the other places they seem to be springing up) - the product looks low end and the service is far from reliable - I would also assume that were the flight cancelled there would be no alternative offered.

So they have a great product for a CERTAIN clientele, NOT business people, just holiday makers with a bit more to spend! The problem with their clever foresight is that they have screwed it for everyone else as the big Y cabin behind the small J cabin I crave for is now empty as they are all on GSM. Lets look at the arrival of Air Asia X potentially.... All that will do is take business AWAY from the back of SQs 777, the potential Thai service, the potential NZ or any faint hope of a return of QF. I dont think their arrival is anything to celebrate whatsoever.

Ipso facto, the growth of serious long haul business destinations is screwed!

Your thoughts please!

J
 
cornish
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RE: The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation

Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:08 pm

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 48):
There has to be a market for longhaul direct services, with a BMI style flat bed small J cabin and the remainder filled with Y. The problem with the likes of Globespan starting these services is that I would not DREAM of using them as a business product. At the end of the day, whilst I applaud their thought process, seeing a gap in the market, they have the appearance of a charter or Low Cost operation - why would I use them for business to Canada or South Africa (or all the other places they seem to be springing up) - the product looks low end and the service is far from reliable - I would also assume that were the flight cancelled there would be no alternative offered.

So they have a great product for a CERTAIN clientele, NOT business people, just holiday makers with a bit more to spend! The problem with their clever foresight is that they have screwed it for everyone else as the big Y cabin behind the small J cabin I crave for is now empty as they are all on GSM. Lets look at the arrival of Air Asia X potentially.... All that will do is take business AWAY from the back of SQs 777, the potential Thai service, the potential NZ or any faint hope of a return of QF. I dont think their arrival is anything to celebrate whatsoever.

Ipso facto, the growth of serious long haul business destinations is screwed!

Easy to say, but if the market for a high end product had that much potential, there are enough enlightened major airlines out there to fly it. Lets be honest here GSM are a tiny airline within the industry we work in. No major carrier would be scared of taking it on. Before GSM started up routes, the big legacy carreirs were not queueing up to provide premium service, so better for the majority of MAN consumers that somebody comes along and offers services to new destinations.

Sadly Jonny there simply aren't enough of you flying regularly to numerous destinations to see anything more than small scale expansion by the majors at the current time - and even then aside from the Middle East money no object carriers it isn't really happening, and its niche operators who are doing so, despite some more excitable members of this forum trying to indicate that a whole host of new services will be coming each year, only for them not to materialise.

Bmi tried it and failed - one could argue that they cocked it up in the desire to get into long haul out of LHr,, but even after getting their fingers burnt from India, they still aren't expanding MAN - the sad fact is that they know that Saudi out of LHR makes more money for them than any of their MAN long haul routes - simply due to the premium yields.

And lovely as it would be and wished for by some of the non industry people up there on these forums, the likes of LAX or SFO on a high cost legacy carrier simply isn't going to stack up - 787s or no 787s. So you have the choice would you rather see the likes of Globespan operate there out of MAN or not have it at all?
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work

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