manni
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B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:08 am

Air Europa, the launch customer of the A350 in the first version offered to the airlines, appears to be in talks with Boeing over the 787. Air europa firmed up this order for 10 A350's in 2005. According to the article neither Boeing nor Air Europa wanted to comment on the reports.

http://www.sharewatch.com/story.php?storynumber=317957

Mr. Leahy did mention, at one of the previous press conferences, that he was 'prepared' to lose a few customers. IMO to weaken their negotiation power.
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leelaw
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:26 am

This may be a case the where the A350 design evolved into something that no longer fit the customer's requirements. It will also be interesting to see whether a potential and/or existing customer publicly rejects the "composite panel" design approach.
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scouseflyer
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 1):
This may be a case the where the A350 design evolved into something that no longer fit the customer's requirements. It will also be interesting to see whether a potential and/or existing customer publicly rejects the "composite panel" design approach.

Or it is going to be too late for their needs.....
 
manni
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:33 am

Here's a second article. Things are a bit differently worded there.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070206...spainairlineaerospace_070206161536
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leelaw
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 2):
Or it is going to be too late for their needs.....

Perhaps, although they may not be able to secure 787s any sooner at this point unless they go through a lessor.
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scouseflyer
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:37 am

"MADRID (AFP) - US aircraft maker Boeing is in talks to persuade Spanish airline Air Europa to buy the Boeing 787 jet and abandon the rival A350 plane by Airbus, the head of Boeing Spain said, according to Spanish press reports. "

Maybe it's all part of the negotiating process by Europa -

To B "Tell us what deal you'll do us B"

To A "B are going to give us this to cancel - what your thoughts about that then?"
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 5):

Maybe it's all part of the negotiating process by Europa -
To B "Tell us what deal you'll do us B"

It won't work like that. Demand for the 787 currently exceeds production capability, so why would Boeing cut into their yields to secure what isn't even a major blue-chip customer?

Boeing is chasing BA, LH, and EK at the moment, and they simply aren't going to give heavily discounted slots to Air Europa. It would be very poor business practice.

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 5):
To A "B are going to give us this to cancel - what your thoughts about that then?"

That would likely be illegal.
 
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deltadawg
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:57 am

It may be that since the 350XWB has grown in size to compete more with the T7 that the a/c may have grown out of Air Europa's needs. It may be that they are looking for something more along the lines of 788 or 783?
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SEPilot
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:59 am

Hey, it's a cat-eat-cat world out there; what do you expect Boeing to do, play tiddlywinks? They'll go after all of the A350 customers, but as mentioned above, they aren't in a position to offer super deals or early deliveries. The airlines need to keep the focus on what will suit their needs the best.
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ebbuk
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:06 am

Quote from http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/070206/323/gyaj7.html

"The head of Boeing's Spanish operations, Pedro Arguelles, said the A350 will come into service five years after the B787 without adding any technological advantage, and that Boeing plans to make the most of any opportunities left open by the competition."

When he puts in that way, he has a point. Can he make it stick, however?
 
rootsair
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:54 am

This is very good news for Boeing... UX cannot wait till 2013-2014 and its nice to see Spanish Airlines going Boeing. I found too political the fact Spanish airlines have always preferred to chose the A340 over the 777 .
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ikramerica
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 9):
When he puts in that way, he has a point. Can he make it stick, however?

Well, will the A350X have no technological advantage gained in 5 years of time, considering how fast technology advances? The "given" in his statement is far from...

It may just be that Air Europa needs a plane more the size of the 788 at the cost of a 788, but now the A350X starts at a size closer to the 789 at the cost of a 787-10...
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ClassicLover
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
It won't work like that. Demand for the 787 currently exceeds production capability, so why would Boeing cut into their yields to secure what isn't even a major blue-chip customer?

Interestingly enough, your comment cements exactly what I thought Boeing's attitude has been like for the late 1990s and early 2000s.

"If it's not a blue chip customer, we don't want you" / "If you're not a blue chip customer, we're not going to treat you as well".

What is shown by the 787 programme is that Boeing is happy to take any customer, no matter how small - and they have reaped the benefits by doing so. The 787 order book has most of the world well represented - from Australia to the USA to Europe to the Indian Subcontinent, to Asia, to Africa.

Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me at all for Boeing to be chasing Air Europa.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 14):
Interestingly enough, your comment cements exactly what I thought Boeing's attitude has been like for the late 1990s and early 2000s.

Then you thought wrong. Boeing's trouble in the 90s was as much product strategy as it was sales strategy. For example, not having an effective A332 competitor was not the fault of the sales team. Not introducing the 737NG until nearly a decade after the A320 was not the fault of the sales team.

Boeing's sales team through the 90s did an amazing job leveraging top dollar for products like the 777. Boeing made an absolute killing because they had the best product, and airlines knew it. What hurt Boeing was not knowing which customers to pursue more diligently than others. However, virtually all of these examples (U2, AB, B6) regard the narrow-body market.

Boeing is now in a simmilar position in 2007 (with the 787) as they were in 1997 (with the 777). Airlines are still going to buy airplanes, and if they don't have (much) choice, it's a sellers market.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 14):
"If it's not a blue chip customer, we don't want you" / "If you're not a blue chip customer, we're not going to treat you as well".

Now you're just being ridiculous. Of course Boeing values its customers, but not all customers are created equal. That's just business.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 14):
Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me at all for Boeing to be chasing Air Europa.

Nor would I, but Air Europa will not be an airline that will walk away with the deal of a century. If they go with the 787, it will have more to do with the derailment of the A350 than whatever deal Boeing offers.
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
What hurt Boeing was not knowing which customers to pursue more diligently than others.

Pardon me for not being as succinct a writer as yourself, but that is what I meant. Apologies if I expressed it incorrectly.
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atmx2000
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:18 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):

Boeing is now in a simmilar position in 2007 (with the 787) as they were in 1997 (with the 777). Airlines are still going to buy airplanes, and if they don't have (much) choice, it's a sellers market.

Not quite. In 1997 the dollar was to begin an ascent spurred by the Asian financial crisis and US asset boom that would eventually lead to it increasing against European currencies. Today, Boeing is not likely to see that disadvantage return.
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2wingtips
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:36 pm

And I think, Air Europa, like Qatar were one of the airlines that had early refundable slots for 788s and went with the A350 instead.
This is no surprise. The 358 will be the 2nd model to EIS and won't be available until 2014+. The 358 looks to be the least capable of the 3 XWB models, with the sweet spot looking to be more around the -900. Probably the best they can hope from Boeing now is 2012 788 slots. That would get them 787s around 2 years earlier than A350s, so it might just be worth considering. Additionally, unlike other Iberian peninsula airlines, Air Europa has a large 737NG fleet, so they have no "fear" of ordering Boeing products.
 
PEET7G
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:42 pm

I think it's a logical step... Air Europa operates a fleet of 763ERs and I the revamped A358 is an overkill for their needs. the 788 gives them that slight capacity growth and still be a less of a gamble. Not to mention the availability, who knows when the A350s will start entering service, the date is still only an Airbus target date, and we all know what that could mean  duck 

However the only way I could see them getting 787s much earlier is thru a lessor...
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jdevora
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 10):
This is very good news for Boeing... UX cannot wait till 2013-2014 and its nice to see Spanish Airlines going Boeing. I found too political the fact Spanish airlines have always preferred to chose the A340 over the 777 .

if IIRC, UX was an All Boeing when they ordered the A350.
In Fleet they show that their fleet is:

30x 737-800
3x 330 -200
4x 767-300  Wink

Not exactly an "All Airbus" fleet
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[Edited 2007-02-07 17:30:01 Typos]

[Edited 2007-02-07 17:33:12]
 
PEET7G
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting Jdevora (Reply 18):
4x 767-400

It must be a misswriting, or where the hell did those came from?
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rootsair
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RE: B. In Talks With Air Europa Over 787

Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting Jdevora (Reply 18):

30x 737-800
3x 330 -200
4x 767-300 Wink



Quoting Jdevora (Reply 18):

Not exactly an "All Airbus" fleet
Cheers
JD



Quoting RootsAir (Reply 10):
I found too political the fact Spanish airlines have always preferred to chose the A340 over the 777 .

I was referring to long haul aircraft sorry! Then if UX is more boeing, why did they chose to operate the A340 instead of the 777. Politics is my answer !
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