NYC777
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Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:43 am

Boeing CEO McNerney said today that Boeing is about half way to 787 weight reduction goal. He made his comments at the Cowen Conference in NYC today.

[Edited 2007-02-06 18:01:52]
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mrcomet
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:44 am

I guess that means its 1% over....
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NYC777
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:49 am

He also said that he expects a go with the 787-10 and and order within 12 months. Also said that the 737RS really is a technology maturation development project at this point.

Sees a lot of European and North American airlines ordering in '07 to '08.

787 is still on time for May, 2008 delivery to ANA.

[Edited 2007-02-06 17:56:34]
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scouseflyer
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
Sees a lot of European and North American airlines ordering in '07 to '08.

the 787-10 or the RS
 
Danny
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
half way to 787 weight goal.

Vary vague and may be interpreted in many ways.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
technology maturation development project

Again, this may mean anything.

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 3):
the 787-10 or the RS

Aircraft of that class, not necessarily from Boeing  Wink
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):

Aircraft of that class, not necessarily from Boeing

Ahh right - Thanks
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 3):
the 787-10 or the RS

I would take the statement to regard Boeing products in general: 737NG, 787, 777, and 747-8

There are several major European and American customers who could potentially place significant orders with Boeing in the next 12 months:

- American Airlines (737NG, 787)
- British Airways (787, 777, 747)
- Lufthansa (787)

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
Also said that the 737RS really is a technology maturation development project at this point.

The Yellowstone conceptual research that eventually led to the 787 took about 3 years if you count from 1999-2002. So if we assume Boeing is just starting that phase now, we may see the 737-RS begin to take shape by 2009-2010, with an EIS around 2014-2015.
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
The Yellowstone conceptual research that eventually led to the 787 took about 3 years if you count from 1999-2002. So if we assume Boeing is just starting that phase now, we may see the 737-RS begin to take shape by 2009-2010, with an EIS around 2014-2015.

Well that but also they need newer engine technology to make that leap in efficiency and justify a whole new program. That isn't quite there yet.
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EI321
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:52 am

Good to hear this, Boeing are almost there.  checkmark 
 
flyorski
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:55 am

Great news for Boeing, they are almost there.

Hope to see the 787 in LH colors  Smile
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NYC777
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 3):
the 787-10 or the RS

Nope McNereny was referring to the general order cycle which these airlines have yet to take part in.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Well that but also they need newer engine technology to make that leap in efficiency and justify a whole new program. That isn't quite there yet.

And likewise, the 787 engines were not at Boeing's disposal in 1999, but the engine OEM were ready to commit in the span of 3-4 years.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:13 am

Courtesy: Chicago Tribune

Boeing CEO: Stretch Dreamliner 'more than likely'

http://www.chicagotribune.com/techno...028736.story?coll=chi-bizfront-hed
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:21 am

I think the stretch will happen by the end of the 2nd quarter more than likely with either BA or EK being the launch customer.
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JAAlbert
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
the 737RS really is a technology maturation development project at this point

What is a "technology maturation development project" mean?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:14 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 14):
What is a "technology maturation development project" mean?

Likely a phase of conceptual research and industrial trade studies. Basically trying to find new or exotic technology (of value!) that can be domesticated and put into mass production in time for the next project on the horizon.
 
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:58 pm

DFWRevolution,
thanks for the definition. nicely explained.
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mrcomet
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:43 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 15):
Likely a phase of conceptual research and industrial trade studies. Basically trying to find new or exotic technology (of value!) that can be domesticated and put into mass production in time for the next project on the horizon.

I disagree. I think he means they are going to try to improve the bird with a few new fairings and replace some AL with carbon but no new technologies until the next generation. They're going to do it on the cheap and hope to see another 500 birds to WN and Ryanair.

Since they are losing the A320 vs 737 battle, this is a mistake. Sure, they sell a lot of tin but Airbus sells more and they make them faster. The right approach is to force Airbus to update and since Airbus doesn't have the resources they'd be screwed.
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Joni
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:47 pm

Quoting MrComet (Reply 1):
I guess that means its 1% over....

You're reading a lot into the statement, as is the wont in A.net. He may have been referring to a state where the plane was 4% over, thus "halfway" is at 2%. Or they may be halfway to solving the problem entirely (in a Microsoft project sense), but haven't yet been able to shed a single kilo.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:25 pm

Quoting MrComet (Reply 17):
I disagree. I think he means they are going to try to improve the bird with a few new fairings and replace some AL with carbon but no new technologies until the next generation. They're going to do it on the cheap and hope to see another 500 birds to WN and Ryanair.

Since they are losing the A320 vs 737 battle, this is a mistake. Sure, they sell a lot of tin but Airbus sells more and they make them faster. The right approach is to force Airbus to update and since Airbus doesn't have the resources they'd be screwed.

Nah, the "RS" in 737RS is for "Replacement Study", which to me implies a clean-sheet design.
PS> I fully see 737RS/Y1 (they are the same thing) as 787's "Mini-Me".  

Quoting Joni (Reply 18):
You're reading a lot into the statement, as is the wont in A.net. He may have been referring to a state where the plane was 4% over, thus "halfway" is at 2%. Or they may be halfway to solving the problem entirely (in a Microsoft project sense), but haven't yet been able to shed a single kilo.

 no   no   no 
Is this your wish? 'Cause I don't read it like that.
4% is in itself a wild exaggeration, in light of reports over the last several months.

[Edited 2007-02-07 09:35:17]
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leelaw
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:40 pm

Quote:
Boeing is midway to achieving its goal of reducing the weight of its new 787 Dreamliner by 2 percent, Chief Executive Officer James McNerney said.

"We're halfway to our weight-reduction goal and continue to take weight out," McNerney told investors at SG Cowen & Co.'s Aerospace and Defense conference in New York on Tuesday. "I'm more confident than normal."

Boeing's suppliers are producing lighter parts aimed at reducing the plane's weight by about 5,000 pounds, McNerney said.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ospace/2003560147_bizbriefs07.html
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MCIGuy
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:00 pm

Pretty amazing when you put it into perspective. It's already lost the weight of a large automobile.
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NAV20
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:10 pm

Quoting MrComet (Reply 17):
Since they are losing the A320 vs 737 battle, this is a mistake.

With respect, MrComet, don't understand that comment? Last year Boeing sold 729 X 737s net, EADS sold 673 X A320 Family; of which at least 150 are contingent on building an assembly plant in China at unknown cost?

I'd have said the 737 and A320 Family are level pegging at best; it's likely that, if anything, Boeing are somewhat ahead? Especially since any revival of demand in the US market in 2007 and beyond is likely to be heavily weighted in favour of Boeing, just from the natural and understandable tendency of US airlines to buy American if product quality is equal?

On the main topic, I think Boeing are playing their cards very adroitly - following a policy of 'transparency,' mentioning minor problems in good time and ALSO explaining the planned action/solutions. That builds customer confidence.

[Edited 2007-02-07 10:13:15]
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Danny
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
I'd have said the 737 and A320 Family are level pegging at best

Just because demand for narrow bodies is so high that airlines have to take whatever is available.
 
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:36 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
He also said that he expects a go with the 787-10 and and order within 12 months. Also said that the 737RS really is a technology maturation development project at this point.

Which means the co-developement along side the 787 is paying big dividends. As 787 technology matures, so does the 737RS. I'll bet Boeing has a lot of the 737RS CAD work complete. The 737 RS will be here much sooner than anyone expected, IMO.  Cool
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Joni
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:33 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 19):
Is this your wish? 'Cause I don't read it like that.
4% is in itself a wild exaggeration, in light of reports over the last several months.

I didn't say that was my "wish", I said the statement quoted was extremely vague. Among other things, it wasn't stated that the starting point of whatever he was referring to was in "recent months", I'm sure that at some point of the program the projected weight was 4% over, therefore the statement could have been made, technically correctly, if the weight was now 2% over. Of course Boeing still hasn't revealed over what weight, so these discussions are by nature very vague to begin with but this is even more vague than usuallly.
 
norcal
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 25):
Of course Boeing still hasn't revealed over what weight, so these discussions are by nature very vague to begin with but this is even more vague than usuallly.



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 20):
Quote:
Boeing is midway to achieving its goal of reducing the weight of its new 787 Dreamliner by 2 percent, Chief Executive Officer James McNerney said.

"We're halfway to our weight-reduction goal and continue to take weight out," McNerney told investors at SG Cowen & Co.'s Aerospace and Defense conference in New York on Tuesday. "I'm more confident than normal."

Boeing's suppliers are producing lighter parts aimed at reducing the plane's weight by about 5,000 pounds, McNerney said.

I don't see how that is vague at all  Confused

Quoting Danny (Reply 23):
Just because demand for narrow bodies is so high that airlines have to take whatever is available.

Production availability is one thing, but one a/c will fit an airline's route planning better than another. These two aircraft are pretty evenly pegged despite what your biased brain thinks. The A320 might have a wider cabin, but the 737 has a longer range with most models. The FBW system in the A320 might be a little more maintenance friendly than the cable and pulley system on the 737, but the 737 weighs less and thus has lower landing fees.

There are many different categories where one might be slightly better than the other, it just all comes down to which one fits the best. (and pricing/financing) If one a/c was clearly better than the other, you would see the better one selling with a profit margin much higher than the other. This simply isn't the case.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 18):
He may have been referring to a state where the plane was 4% over, thus "halfway" is at 2%. Or they may be halfway to solving the problem entirely (in a Microsoft project sense), but haven't yet been able to shed a single kilo.

Boeing's statements for the past six months or so have referred to the 787 being 2% over their internal target weight. McNerey's own comment states Boeing is "is midway to achieving its goal of reducing the weight of its new 787 Dreamliner by 2 percent". Ergo, Boeing is halfway to getting the 787's weight to their internal target value.

Quoting MrComet (Reply 17):
Since they are losing the A320 vs 737 battle, (it) is a mistake (for Boeing to just try and improve the 737). Sure, they sell a lot of tin but Airbus sells more and they make them faster. The right approach is to force Airbus to update and since Airbus doesn't have the resources they'd be screwed.

Yet neither Boeing nor Airbus can offer narrowbody operators a design with 10% or more efficiency, which is considered the "tipping point" to get folks to start large-scale fleet replacements. The balance of that is going to come from engines, since even CFRP is not going to offer the weight reduction benefits it does on a widebody twice as large with MTOWs many multiples heavier.

Airbus wants the A320E to reinforce their position because they know they can't respond as quickly as Boeing. The A320 is also the brightest spot in their product portfolio at the moment (with the A330's star rising again), so they want to make sure that plane keeps bringing in the Euros to fund operations.

Quoting Danny (Reply 23):
Just because demand for narrow bodies is so high that airlines have to take whatever is available.

Airlines do not buy planes because they have no choice. If that was the case, Airbus would have sold a lot more A340s and A350s as of late, and Boeing would have enjoyed stronger 767 and 747 sales this past half-decade.

If the A320 was so phenomenally superior to the 737NG in every way as to make it truly "no contest", Airbus would be pumping out 100 a month at TLS, XFW and XMN right now while RNT would be completely apartments and parking lots.
 
Danny
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
If the A320 was so phenomenally superior to the 737NG in every way as to make it truly "no contest",

Delivery time, price and other elements of the deal do matter as well.
 
khobar
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 18):
You're reading a lot into the statement, as is the wont in A.net. He may have been referring to a state where the plane was 4% over, thus "halfway" is at 2%.

Have you ever seen a reference to the aircraft being 4% over?

Quoting Joni (Reply 25):
I'm sure that at some point of the program the projected weight was 4% over

What makes you say that?

Quoting Danny (Reply 23):
Just because demand for narrow bodies is so high that airlines have to take whatever is available.

http://www.hellocompany.org/entry/bo...g-turn-away-most-coveted-customer/

So, Danny, airlines are buying Airbus because they can't get Boeings. Well, thanks for clearing that up for us.  Wink
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 28):
Delivery time, price and other elements of the deal do matter as well.

Sure they do, but to hear some people on this board speak, you'd think the A320 had a 50% CASM advantage over the 737NG and if Airbus could build 1200 a year, they'd land every narrowbody order, but since they can't, Boeing is "lucky" and that's why they get roughly half each year.

The truth of the matter is the 737NG is competitive enough on her own merits to hold her own against the A320 and that is why the annual narrowbody order market is roughly split between them.
 
TomB
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:48 am

On the Boeing website under the general Boeing 787-8 specifications, Boeing increased the Maximum Design Takeoff Weight to 484,000 pounds.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787family/787-8prod.html

On Boeing's Airport Compatability Guide dated April 2006, the MTOW of the 787-8 was 480,000 pounds.

I think Boeing is acknowledging some weight gain for the Boeing 787-8.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing CEO Says 787 Halfway To Weight Reduction

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting TomB (Reply 31):
On the Boeing website under the general Boeing 787-8 specifications, Boeing increased the Maximum Design Takeoff Weight to 484,000 pounds...On Boeing's Airport Compatability Guide dated April 2006, the MTOW of the 787-8 was 480,000 pounds.

The important number is OEW.

It could be that Boeing found a way to carry four thousand pounds more payload (fuel and/or pax+cargo) and raised the MTOW appropriately.

Remember that Boeing raised the MTOW of the 787-9 by some 20,000lbs between the original and final spec, but we know the 787-9 isn't 20,000lbs heavier then originally planned.  Wink

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