rootsair
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Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:21 am

Russia is such a big country! Bigger than the US, and even than Canada! However, it seems to be all centered in Moscow, unlike the US which has many major importance cities (NYC, LA, Chicago, Stlanta, San Francisco, Washington DC, Boston, etc) or even Canada (Toronto, Montreal, etc).

Thus Aeroflot only has Moscow as its hub city and not even St. Petersburg or a further away hub like Vladisvostok(according to airline routemaps it doesn't even have routes from Vladivostok to tokyo so the only way to fly btwn the two cities with SU is to fly to Moscow and back to tokyo. I have the impression in Russia its all about Moscow and very little about the rest?

Could anyone tell me why SU not have different hubs .
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urnla
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:27 am

I believe lack of demand for one. Most people still can only afford charter holidays once a year in Turkey/Egypt/Thailand. And that is more of a UN/S7 territory.
And secondly lack of infrastructure in St.Petersburg/Vladivostok etc. The airports are worn down leftovers from the Soviet times - nowadays DME and SVO is all Russia has for potential hubs. Unfortunately!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:34 am

Remember that during the times of the Soviet Union, all Airlines were Aeroflot. There was Aeroflot LED, Aeroflot SVO, Aeroflot DME, Aeroflot Kiev, etc. They all flew as SU and all of SU had a monopoly in the Soviet Union. I guess that nowadays, apart from demand and the high prices, there wouldn't be any sense to them having multiple hubs everywhere in Russia.
 
EFHK
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:07 am

I think this will change in the future when the Russian aviation market develops. Not enough time has passed yet from the Soviet times for the market to develop, and it's still in its infancy. Things are already improving though with airlines like S7, KrasAir (AirUnion) and Rossiya developing their networks and adding Western types to their fleets, but it's still Moscow-oriented. I can definitely see Russia in the future a bit as an U.S.-type market, with "east coast" and "west coast" hubs for airlines, as they merge etc... Moscow will always be important though. But it will take time, as mentioned above with the infrastructure and also the airlines won't expand easily to new markets before the current ones are served as much as there is demand.
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Humberside
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:12 am

Many of those former Aeroflot divisions are now separate airlines that compete with Aeroflot

Aeroflot as it is now was just the SVO bit on break up of the old Aeroflot
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ly7e7
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:21 pm

1. More than 7.3% of the Russians reside in Moscow - (for comparison only
2. The wealth distribution in Russia emphasise Moscow as the city with the means to travel.
3. Average income of less than US$ 200 a month means that in peripherial Russia very little can afford air travel with Su - a carrier that specializes in international carriage.
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EGBJ
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:22 pm

Consider also that Russia is extremely sparsely populated with a density of just 21 people for every squared mile. Although the US is also quite sparse there are huge build ups of population around the main hub cities you mention. These huge populations necessitate good air-links and thus airlines set up hubs there.
This isn't the case in Russia, the population of Vladivostok is under 600,000.
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RedChili
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
However, it seems to be all centered in Moscow,

If you ignore all of the (several hundred?) other Russian airlines, then yes, it's all centered in Moscow.

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
Thus Aeroflot only has Moscow as its hub city and not even St. Petersburg or a further away hub like Vladisvostok

Aeroflot is the main Moscow airline, and that's where they've always been based. St Petersburg is Rossiya (formerly Pulkovo Airlines) territory, while Vladivostok is the hub of Vladivostok Air. Aeroflot would have a hard time competing with these airlines if Aeroflot would try to establish hubs there. In addition, Aeroflot doesn't even have any planes left over to base in those cities!

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
according to airline routemaps it doesn't even have routes from Vladivostok to tokyo so the only way to fly btwn the two cities
with SU is to fly to Moscow and back to tokyo.

If you insist on flying Aeroflot, yes. But even if I love Cathay Pcific, I would never dream of flying CX from London to Paris via HKG. I would rather take AF or BA. In the same way, I believe that Vladivostok Air at least flies to Niigata in Japan but maybe to other destinations also. Or you could fly KE VVO-ICN-NRT.

Quoting Urnla (Reply 1):
I believe lack of demand for one.

No lack of demand. Aviation is growing just as fast as in China and India.

Quoting Urnla (Reply 1):
And secondly lack of infrastructure in St.Petersburg/Vladivostok etc. The airports are worn down leftovers from the Soviet times - nowadays DME and SVO is all Russia has for potential hubs.

Actually, Russia probably has around a couple of dozen. The most important hubs are:
SVO, DME, VKO
LED
IKT, OVB, KUF, KHV, ROV, YKS, KJA, OMS, SVX, etc.

I do have to add, though, that aviation in Russia is very different from the USA. Most Russians fly on point-to-point routes whereas passengers in the USA are accustomed to fly via a hub.
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uzzzer
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:26 pm

It takes to have tremendous transit market to run two- or multi-hub strategy. In Europe only LH succeeds to have it working big time so far. At the same time, running 2 hubs is exactly the reason for AZ troubles.

SU has lost much of its transit market as Russian regions and former republics' capitals started flying international themselves. Aeroflot Kiev or Leningrad etc has eventually transformed into new private airlines like VV or Pulkovo (Rossiya). Competition and relying only on O&D has shrunk the opportunities for SU.

I believe SU remains the biggest passenger carrier in the PostSoviet though
 
goaliemn
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
I have the impression in Russia its all about Moscow and very little about the rest?

When I visited Russia 15 years ago, it was all about moscow. Trains and planes ran on Moscow time. There was local time, then Moscow time.
 
kalvado
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 9):

When I visited Russia 15 years ago, it was all about moscow. Trains and planes ran on Moscow time. There was local time, then Moscow time.

which may add an extra layer of confusion to end user, but can remove some confusion as well. Just compare with GMT timestamps, which are more than common in navigation. Does that mean navigation is all about London?
 
RedChili
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 9):
Trains and planes ran on Moscow time. There was local time, then Moscow time.

Trains run on Moscow time, yes (probably because it's difficult to know exactly where to adjust your clock when you're passing several time zones over invisible time-zone borders on land). But departure and arrival times for planes are always local time.
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rootsair
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):

If you ignore all of the (several hundred?) other Russian airlines, then yes, it's all centered in Moscow.

This thread seems to be about Aeroflot, the NATIONAL airline , so no, I don't ignore the other ones!

And one must admit that for its size, Russia is too centred in Moscow !
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RedChili
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 12):
This thread seems to be about Aeroflot, the NATIONAL airline , so no, I don't ignore the other ones!

Roger. However, in your first post you were saying about Russia that "it seems to be all centered in Moscow," and "Thus Aeroflot only has Moscow as its hub city." The impression which you gave was that the thread was about how Russia is all centered in Moscow, and that Aeroflot was just one example of this.

Concering SU, the answer is the one I gave in reply 7: Aeroflot would have a real hard time establishing hubs in any other city than Moscow. They would basically have to compete with the local airlines which already operate hubs there. And Aeroflot doesn't even have resources for it. They don't have any airplanes to station in any other airport than SVO, and they don't have the finances to acquire new airplanes for other hubs.

What SU has done instead is to buy a controlling stake in Aeroflot-Don and Aeroflot-Nord, which have hubs in Rostov and Arkhangelsk respectively. They are reportedly interested in doing the same with several other airlines.

The only Russian airline that has a real multi-hub system is Sibir. They've got hubs in OVB, IKT and DME. They started out in OVB, but they bought Sayany which was based in IKT, and Vnukovo Airlines which was based in DME.

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 12):
And one must admit that for its size, Russia is too centred in Moscow !

Moscow is the capital and the financial powerhouse, but it's quite possible to travel all over Russia without going through Moscow.
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 12):
And one must admit that for its size, Russia is too centred in Moscow !

Nope. No admitting necessary. That's not true. Moscow as RedChili said is the capital. It leads the entire country. After the collapse of the Soviet Union all cities felt an impact economy-wise. Moscow, being the center of everything was able to emerge very fast. (Simply look at the city now). Other cities, though developing at a much slower speed, are still changing quite drastically.
Aeroflot as we know is today, is the branch of Aeroflot that was left after SU broke up into many sectors. Thus SU today has the hub in Moscow. Other airlines such as Sibir, Vladivostok, Omsk... all have their own markets. Simply put, there is no reason for Aeroflot to start opening up new hubs. The airline is doing quite well both domestically and internationally, and expanding at a good pace.
Other airlines take care of the rest of the markets. Now this does not imply that SU doesn't want to expand in those markets. It's just that, that sort of competition is unnecessary. Aeroflot, as more planes are delivered, will start flying routes that don't involve Moscow, but hubs won't be in their plans. In-fact, they have already started this sort of expansion with a new route starting this month. Sochi-Frankfurt.

As time comes, routes between other Russian cities will open up. But concentrating on markets that other airlines are doing well in doesn't make sense at the moment, because everyone is happy where they are.

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jimyvr
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RE: Why Aeroflot, Only One Hub City?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:30 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
Actually, Russia probably has around a couple of dozen. The most important hubs are:
SVO, DME, VKO
LED
IKT, OVB, KUF, KHV, ROV, YKS, KJA, OMS, SVX, etc.

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Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
But departure and arrival times for planes are always local time.

No. It was always showing Moscow time until USSR collapsed

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 14):
It's just that, that sort of competition is unnecessary. Aeroflot, as more planes are delivered, will start flying routes that don't involve Moscow, but hubs won't be in their plans. In-fact, they have already started this sort of expansion with a new route starting this month. Sochi-Frankfurt.

Sochi-Frankfurt is by AEROFLOT-DON, not really directly by AEROFLOT. The airline is and will soon open additional hubs after it bought AVL, which is now AEROFLOT-Nord, and AEROFLOT-DON. AEROFLOT-East will consist Dalavia and SAT (Sakhalinsk) in the fat-east.
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