panamair
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:36 am

Looks like Delta will start twice daily JFK-BGM service starting May 7 using Freedom ERJ145:

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/070206/113212.html

Also, JFK-SYR and JFK-ALB will be gradually upgraded from DH8s to CRJs starting in mid-April.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:45 am

Interesting. I would think that an RJ from JFK to BGM and ALB would be overkill for such a short flight...
 
commavia
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:54 am

I don't see how Delta has any chance at all of ever making money on routes that short with RJs.

[Edited 2007-02-06 20:54:30]
 
LawnDart
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 2):
I don't see how Delta has any chance at all of ever making money on routes that short with RJs.

That's not the route they plan to make money on...it's the JFK to Europe / South America / India / Africa / West Coast routes they hope to make money on.
 
newkai
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:02 am

Nice, very nice. I recently flew JFK-SYR on a DH8... I find DL's commuter flights to be a bit chaotic at JFK though. There's basically two gates and passengers all crowd around them, with gate agents telling them to step back all the time... Quite crazy.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:06 am

I agree these will never make money, and the idea is to get European connections, but:

1. Are there that many European bound pax in BGM to justifty jets?
2. Would someone fly DL versus CO just because the first 45 minutes of the 8-12 hour journey are oon a CRJ?
 
commavia
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 3):
That's not the route they plan to make money on...it's the JFK to Europe / South America / India / Africa / West Coast routes they hope to make money on.

I understand that, they are no doubt hoping for a boost in yields by driving more revenue through increased market share in the Upstate-International market.

However, I still don't see how the incrimental revenue increase from moving from DHCs to RJs (if there is a revenue bump at all) could possibly make up for the increase in costs from going from a low-cost prop to a high-cost RJ. In other words, is a customer that much more likely to fly Delta over a competitor if they are flying from, say Syracuse to Mumbai, because the route from SYR to JFK is on an RJ? On a flight that short, and in these tiny markets we're talking about, I highly doubt it.
 
newkai
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
2. Would someone fly DL versus CO just because the first 45 minutes of the 8-12 hour journey are oon a CRJ?

At BGM, yes... Because there is no CO!
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:08 am

Ok, how about UA to IAD?
 
Evan767
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 2):
I don't see how Delta has any chance at all of ever making money on routes that short with RJs.



Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 1):
Interesting. I would think that an RJ from JFK to BGM and ALB would be overkill for such a short flight...

Bah, I remember in 2000 when DL operated JFK-PHL and JFK-BDL with a 763ER and PDX-SEA with a 757.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
LawnDart
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
In other words, is a customer that much more likely to fly Delta over a competitor if they are flying from, say Syracuse to Mumbai, because the route from SYR to JFK is on an RJ?

Passengers in the U.S. seem to be rather prop-averse. So, yes, if I can fly on an RJ over a DHC-8 (and ones that are fairly old, from what I've heard), then I will choose to fly the all-jet option.

Is there a two hour time period at which the RJ is just sitting in JFK? Is the cost incremental? Do they need to get the RJ off the concrete, so to speak, because they are running out of room at JFK during that time period? A lot of factors that I don't know, so can't say for sure.

Would have to agree that BGM doesn't seem to be a hot-bed of competition.
 
commavia
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 9):
Bah, I remember in 2000 when DL operated JFK-PHL and JFK-BDL with a 763ER and PDX-SEA with a 757.

Lest we forget the short-lived 763 JFK-BDL-JFK run!

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 10):
Passengers in the U.S. seem to be rather prop-averse.

They seem to be even more high-fare-averse, though, so I think that the vast majority of travelers wouldn't care whether they're on a jet or a prop, as long as the fare is good. (And on a flight that short, and with a prop as good as the Bombardier Q series, there really isn't much of a difference between the two anyway.)

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 10):
Is there a two hour time period at which the RJ is just sitting in JFK? Is the cost incremental? Do they need to get the RJ off the concrete, so to speak, because they are running out of room at JFK during that time period? A lot of factors that I don't know, so can't say for sure.

Agreed -- much information we don't know. There very well could be a scheduled downtime for these CRJs, and the marginal cost of just parking them may exceed the obviously loss-making proposition of sending them on a 3-4 hour round trip upstate. Nonetheless, I still think a prop like the Q series would be much better suited to these short/thin markets.
 
panamair
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:42 am

Another factor to consider is that DL has been having quite a few operational difficulties with the DH8s (probably more an issue with Mesa than with the Dashes) - on any given day, there are almost always cancellations and/or delays stretching for hours...the operational reliability of those DH8 routes has been sketchy at best....
 
BatonOps
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:57 am

Maybe we will see ITH-JFK in the near future on DL. There are a lot of foreign students at Cornell. US already flies ITH-LGA five times a day.

Good news for BGM!!
 
kstateinALB
Posts: 538
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:24 am

Well, exciting for BGM. JFK service does pretty well for an airport so good luck with it!

Quoting Panamair (Thread starter):
JFK-ALB will be gradually upgraded from DH8s to CRJs

Thats great! Have to try that out sometime if I can.
ALB, DTW, ORD, MDW, MCI, JFK, LGA, LHR, MAD, MSP, IAD, DCA, MCO, ATL, CVG, TUL, MHK, PHL, PIT, DFW, DAL, CLT, IND, AUS,
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting Newkai (Reply 4):
Nice, very nice. I recently flew JFK-SYR on a DH8... I find DL's commuter flights to be a bit chaotic at JFK though. There's basically two gates and passengers all crowd around them, with gate agents telling them to step back all the time... Quite crazy.

ITs no better down stairs either



Are they gonna do away with the props to BDL, PWM, MHT, ORF, PVD, and BWI esp the last two they are always full with w/b issues.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
N666FU
Posts: 135
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
Quoting Evan767 (Reply 9):
Bah, I remember in 2000 when DL operated JFK-PHL and JFK-BDL with a 763ER and PDX-SEA with a 757.

Lest we forget the short-lived 763 JFK-BDL-JFK run!

Hell, while we're at it, FLL-TPA with a 757, and TPA-MCO with a 732.
KEPT DELTA OUR DELTA! Ask USAirPlatinum about it!
 
VgnAtl747
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:40 am

I used to work for OH in BGM... this is great news for them! You'd actually be amazed how many people used to call up and say, "What?!? There's no direct service to NY?!?" I don't know that there is enough demand for it to be profitable on it's own, but as has been said, the main market is DL's International expansion out of JFK. The daily ATL frequency has also been increased to three, from the two that BGM previously had...

Great news for my friends up at BGM!!
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:41 am

The downside to this move is that overall, people in BGM are losing a lot of their domestic connectivity. While they are gaining 2 JFK flights, they are losing one ATL flight. That will leave them with only 1 ATL flight daily. DL has added a decent number of domestic flights from JFK, but they pale in comparison to ATL. Overall, it will be harder for people in BGM to reach domestic destination and in many cases require more double connections.

DL's had a tough time in BGM. They started with CVG service which didn't do too hot. They moved the service to ATL and are now moving most of the service to JFK. I have a feeling this is DL's last gasp effort to make BGM work, before it gets the axe.
 
newkai
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:39 pm

RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
While they are gaining 2 JFK flights, they are losing one ATL flight. That will leave them with only 1 ATL flight daily. DL has added a decent number of domestic flights from JFK, but they pale in comparison to ATL. Overall, it will be harder for people in BGM to reach domestic destination and in many cases require more double connections.

DL's had a tough time in BGM. They started with CVG service which didn't do too hot. They moved the service to ATL and are now moving most of the service to JFK. I have a feeling this is DL's last gasp effort to make BGM work, before it gets the axe.

Is BGM really losing that second BGM flight... It seems more like a typo to me... "Delta will continue to offer one daily flight..." Or is that just sneaking wording to make it sound better?

Regarding CVG... Isn't that a nationwide trend at DL? They are downgrading CVG service and replacing it with ATL service in a lot of places.

Anyone remember the name of that weird carrier that last flew BGM-JFK... I think they were abbreviated TME and flew little boxy props... I think this was in the late 90s but only lasted a few months. They weren't affiliated with a major carrier, and I think they advertised $59 flights.
 
newkai
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:39 pm

RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:24 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 8):
Ok, how about UA to IAD?

As far as I know, BGM-IAD doesn't have RJs anymore (they had one or two until about a year ago). Would someone fly BGM-JFK-Europe instead of BGM-IAD-Europe just because of the aircraft on the first leg? Probably not... It'd probably be the routing afterwards and the price, but this DL service definitely allows for more options.

By the way, as there's no B6 competition, these new DL flights are pretty expensive... Anyone else notice that?
 
Eagle11
Posts: 163
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:42 pm

Though this is a small addition (and improvement) in service, anything new is welcome here Upstate.

Good luck to DL, BGM, SYR, and ALB.
"The Eagle has landed"
 
Avatordon
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:33 pm

RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:16 pm

BGM is about an hour from ELM, which is where Corning Inc. is located. And interms of international travel, Corning is HUGE! So for theri transatlantic and GRU, this may be a smart move indeed.
 
UN_B732
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:41 pm

I'd like to note FRL is also shown as running the ERJ on 3 out of 4 BTV frequencies starting April 17th.
I read on another site that 3 ERJs will be based at JFK.
-A
What now?
 
TIA
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:54 pm

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 13):
Maybe we will see ITH-JFK in the near future on DL. There are a lot of foreign students at Cornell. US already flies ITH-LGA five times a day.

While there are a lot of foreign students at Cornell and Ithaca College, they only fly when there is a school break. So 99% of the year, personal student traffic would be close to zero. Demand to ITH is not that strong, but since a lot of people who fly to ITH don't pay for the flights themselves, US and NW can continue to charge high fares and keep the current level of service.
 
Riddle274
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:21 pm

If we assume for a moment that these new routes will work, where will the Dashes go since the RJ's are taking over the routes? Will that give DL the oppurtunity to open more new routes?
 
newkai
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:39 pm

RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting Newkai (Reply 19):
Is BGM really losing that second BGM flight

The Press and Sun Bulletin confirmed this today:

http://pressconnects.com/apps/pbcs.d...ID=/20070207/NEWS01/702070328/1001
 
newkai
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:39 pm

RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting Newkai (Reply 19):
Anyone remember the name of that weird carrier that last flew BGM-JFK... I think they were abbreviated TME

Turns out it was Trans International Express, which flew the route for ten months in 1999. They flew Shorts 360 aircraft.
 
rocANDtpa
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:08 am

It is definately makes sense to upgrade SYR and BUF. However, it would make much more sense to use the props in BGM and upgrade PVD or PWM. BGM is not that big of a market and it would pretty much guarantee the success of the route. BTW BUF has been upgraded to 5 daily. I don't think the ROC flights are doing that well. A while back it mentioned some type of incidend on one of the flights in the local paper and the article mentioned there was only 16 or 18 people on board.

[Edited 2007-02-07 16:09:44]
 
PVD757
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Panamair (Thread starter):
Also, JFK-SYR and JFK-ALB will be gradually upgraded from DH8s to CRJs starting in mid-April.

looks like SYR gets 2X ER4's in April

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 15):
Are they gonna do away with the props to BDL, PWM, MHT, ORF, PVD, and BWI

PWM gets all 4 ER4's in April. BWI and ORF get 1X CRJ in April as well.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
The downside to this move is that overall, people in BGM are losing a lot of their domestic connectivity. While they are gaining 2 JFK flights, they are losing one ATL flight. That will leave them with only 1 ATL flight daily

I saw that too - the shorter leg to save fuel maybe???

Quoting Newkai (Reply 19):
Is BGM really losing that second BGM flight

yes. the new schedule will be 2X ER4 to JFK and 1X ER4 to ATL.

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 23):
I'd like to note FRL is also shown as running the ERJ on 3 out of 4 BTV frequencies starting April 17th.

I saw this too - there are a bunch of yet 'announced' upgrades and changes in the NE for DL in April.

Quoting ROCandTPA (Reply 28):
However, it would make much more sense to use the props in BGM and upgrade PVD or PWM

PWM gets all 4 JFK flights upgraded from the DH8's to ER4's.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: DL To Start JFK-BGM In May

Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:35 am

BTW BUF has been upgraded to 5 daily. I don't think the ROC flights are doing that well. A while back it mentioned some type of incidend on one of the flights in the local paper and the article mentioned there was only 16 or 18 people on board.

Delta doesn't seem to agree regarding ROC; the current timetable shows four dailies on ROC-JFK, and the just-announced changes for April discussed in the other thread indicate, for now, no change at ROC. I ran April 14 at Delta.com and got four daily RJ's. I doubt they would keep this schedule if the flights weren't producing the financials they wanted.

The incident you mention occurred a midday flight on a Sunday, well before the evening rush hour, in the pit of winter. That doesn't seem to me to be a suitable basis for generalizing about the service as a whole. I have to hand it to Delta on this one; I figured they'd cancel at least the two morning flights fairly quickly after the service started. But they must be getting suitable results since the flights have remained.

Good for SYR and ALB getting upgraded, and good for BGM getting its new JFK service. I hope it succeeds.

Jim

[Edited 2007-02-07 18:40:31]
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