sk601
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2 KL MD11 In YUL

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:56 pm

Attention MD11 lovers: currently 2 KLM MD11 aircraft are stuck in YUL. Go check it out!

The past few days were not very good for KL-ops.
-Monday: a KL B74M returned to the gate in ORD after an engine failure and is delayed 48hrs. A replacement engine is flown in from AMS.
-Monday: a KL MD11 returned to the gate in YUL because of problems with flaps and is now expected Wednesday Feb.7 at 20.50lt in stead of Tuesday Feb.6 at 07.30lt
-Monday: a KL B74M bound for MEX was delayed 24hrs due to a technical issue
-Monday: a KL A330 to THR was delayed for 24hrs due to a technical problem
-Tuesday: KL685 to MEX and KL897 to PEK cancelled due no aircraft available.
-Tuesday: another MD11 stuck in YUL. Aircraft returned to gate after an engine problem and is now expected at 21.50 on Wednesday Feb.7 iso 07.30lt. I just spoke to a friend who is onboard that flight and the passengers are now in line for a hotel room. Some passengers are from the delayed flight from monday and they are not happy (understatement).

I know that safety is the most important thing there is, but for pax this is annoying, at least.
 
flyyul
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:27 pm

KLM usually has major issues with their YUL service. Often we see the operational spares (combo of 74M/744/332/772 you name it) show up due some MD11 technical issue elsewhere in the system.

I have seen KLM cancels their flights way more than other airlines serving YUL. I can count at least 5 instances where KLM MD11 overnighted an airplane. Twice, they had Air Canada Technical Services do work to replace an engine (with the assistance of mechanics flown from AMS).
 
HB-IWC
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:38 pm

The dispatch reliability of the 10-strong MD11 fleet is really miserable compared to that of other components - particularly the B772ER - of the KLM widebody fleet. With 2 frames down at YUL and another likely in the hangar for cabin retrofits, there is no doubt that the effects of these operational irregularities will ripple through the system, although there are only supposed to be 7 MD11 departures today at AMS (JRO-DAR, BON-LIM, SFO, HYD, ACC, YUL and BON-GYE-UIO).
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting SK601 (Thread starter):
-Monday: a KL B74M returned to the gate in ORD after an engine failure and is delayed 48hrs. A replacement engine is flown in from AMS.
KL B74M bound for MEX was delayed 24hrs due to a technical issue

Just curious, do you know the registrations of the 744M's? I will be flying ORD-AMS in May.

Quoting SK601 (Thread starter):
I know that safety is the most important thing there is, but for pax this is annoying, at least.

Definitely. The preventative maintenance needs to be straightened out.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 1):
I have seen KLM cancels their flights way more than other airlines serving YUL. I can count at least 5 instances where KLM MD11 overnighted an airplane.

Compared to others, why on this route have their been shortcomings?

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
The dispatch reliability of the 10-strong MD11 fleet is really miserable compared to that of other components - particularly the B772ER - of the KLM widebody fleet.

It appears from above, that lately the 744M has had it's troubles as well, not to mention the A330.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
blueflyer
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:56 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
The dispatch reliability of the 10-strong MD11 fleet is really miserable compared to that of other components

How does it compare to other MD-11 operators ?

[Edited 2007-02-07 09:01:56]
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
Marco
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:04 pm

I flew YUL-AMS on December 20th, and the flight was supposed to be operated by the MD-11, instead they replaced the aircraft with a B747-400 Combi. I loved it 'cause I love the 747, but it was because an MD-11 had had some technical difficulties somewhere in the KLM network and so they sent the only spare aircraft...
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
paneuropean
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:50 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
The dispatch reliability of the 10-strong MD11 fleet is really miserable compared to that of other components - particularly the B772ER - of the KLM widebody fleet.

Despite the fact this threeholder is becoming a rare sight at airports. It still is an awesome piece of metal. AMS (KL, MP)and MEM (Fedex) probably are the two hubs with most M11 movements.

I wonder what KLM is going to do to keep these crafts in their fleet till 2012/15. The older these aircrafts are becoming, the more they will have to deal with these kind of technical failures, I presume. KL will need some spare metal to overcome more operational irregularities. Seems like an expensive solution.........

Does anybody know if the other pax. M11 flying around (Thai, Varig, Finnair) experience such problems as KL does?
 
PHKLM
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting SK601 (Thread starter):

I know that safety is the most important thing there is, but for pax this is annoying, at least.

KLM advertises itself as "The Reliable Airline", it makes one wonder how "reliable" it is with all these irregularities. I understand (as from HB-IWC's elaborate posts) that it is top priority at KL to stretch fleet utilization to the max, but it takes years to build a reputation, and hours to destroy one.
I for one would rather invest in some additional spares or allow planes to stay at base for extended periods of time (at the same time optimizing routes to attract more premium traffic) and thereby have more spare capacity in case things go wrong; especially as I would advertise myself as the "reliable airline".

Clearly, the bottom-line is top priority for KL, now this is not wrong in itself, but it might come at the expense of the paying pax; in the end it is that same pax that brings in the money.
 
PHKLM
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:07 pm

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 6):
I wonder what KLM is going to do to keep these crafts in their fleet till 2012/15. The older these aircrafts are becoming, the more they will have to deal with these kind of technical failures, I presume. KL will need some spare metal to overcome more operational irregularities. Seems like an expensive solution.........

Word is the lease rates on these three holers are so low that it is cheaper to hold onto them until a proper replacement (350XWB/787) is available instead of replacing them now with an intermediate solution (333/777).
The cabins are retrofitted with PTV (is the first cabin done yet?) so that shows KL has full confidence they will perform at acceptable rates in some 8 years to come...
 
sk601
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:17 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
The cabins are retrofitted with PTV

Not yet. All MD11 are flying in a new configuration and all have the new recaro m-class seats, but still without PTV's although PTVs can be build in. Also, the MD11 are still flying with the old WBC seats iso the B777/A330 WBC seat (although some might say that's a good thing).

After the summer season (Oct.2007) the MD11s will get the new WBC seats with AVOD and also PTVs with AVOD will be installed in m-class.
 
sk601
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
KLM advertises itself as "The Reliable Airline",

IIRC KL doesn't use that slogan anymore, but are more focussing on Skyteam("caring more about you").

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 6):
The older these aircrafts are becoming, the more they will have to deal with these kind of technical failures,

Age might have to do something with the bad dispatch reliability, but KL has also major problems with their brand new A330 aircraft. Especially fuel and water tanks are causing problems with this type.
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
there is no doubt that the effects of these operational irregularities will ripple through the system

Hi HB-IWC: KL804/PH-BQA will get to AMS on time though  Cool just in time for the big snowstorm we're expecting tomorrow.

Today KL611 was first delayed then cancelled as a afteraffect of all the troubles SK601 mentions.

KL672D arrived empty I believe, all passengers were rebooked on the regular KL672.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
sk601
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 11):
KL672D arrived empty I believe

The one that was suppose to arrive in AMS yesterday morning, is now expected around 21.00 tonight, without pax.

Todays arrival, is expected tomorrow at 08.50am, together with the regular KL672, which is operated by a B747-400.

My collegue who is stuck in YUL, because of all this, just sent me a text message saying it was a BIG mess at KLM in YUL.
 
mindscape
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Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:28 pm

RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting SK601 (Thread starter):
Tuesday: KL685 to MEX and KL897 to PEK cancelled due no aircraft available



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
I for one would rather invest in some additional spares or allow planes to stay at base for extended periods of time (at the same time optimizing routes to attract more premium traffic) and thereby have more spare capacity in case things go wrong

Just a thought, but why in this case AF cannot send to AMS some of their spare birds (B772ER, ex B744COI retrofitted, etc...) ? I understand that the two brands are operating separately but in this emergency case why not using an AF aircraft instead of cancelling flights and letting passengers on the ground ?
 
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yyz717
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:41 am

The M11 is older than the 744, 332 and 772 in in KL fleet. So the M11 fleet likely has a lower OTP, and is likely assigned to the lower yield markets anyway.

While 2 cancelled M11's out of YUL is not good, it's less important than 2 cancelled KL flights out of JFK or IAD for instance with higher yielding business passengers.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
The dispatch reliability of the 10-strong MD11 fleet is really miserable compared to that of other components - particularly the B772ER - of the KLM widebody fleet.

Sounds like YUL is not a critical market for KL then.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
KLM advertises itself as "The Reliable Airline", it makes one wonder how "reliable" it is with all these irregularities. I understand (as from HB-IWC's elaborate posts) that it is top priority at KL to stretch fleet utilization to the max, but it takes years to build a reputation, and hours to destroy one.



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
Sounds like YUL is not a critical market for KL then.

The MD11 is more and more becoming KLM's designated widebody for leisure and lower yielding markets, which is probably one of the reasons why KLM is planning to cope a couple of more years with the less than desirable dispatch reliability. The new cabin configuration has the WBC cabin relegated to just 24 seats. I guess that KLM is banking on the fact that the markets where the MD11 is and will be deployed are less sensitive to these operational irregularities than some of the airline's more premium markets.

That said, looking at the flying program of the MD11 for next summer, which is even heavier than the one of last summer - more rotations and shorter CAI flights no longer on the program - I really wonder how KLM is going to cope. Fun times ahead for the Operations Control Center for sure!

Quoting SK601 (Reply 10):
Age might have to do something with the bad dispatch reliability, but KL has also major problems with their brand new A330 aircraft.

I think that the A332 issues are still teething problems. Let's also not forget that KLM has just taken delivery of only its 7th A332 frame and that, as such, the fleet is still relatively small, which is never good for operational stability. Any operational or technical issues will immediately provoke long delays, which will ripple through the network for quite a while. I am pretty sure, though, that the A332 operation will eventually stabilize, if KLM keeps the schedule realistic, which is likely because the A332 is deployed on sectors with a relatively shorter stage length.

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 11):
Hi HB-IWC: KL804/PH-BQA will get to AMS on time though

... and thank you very much for that!!!  bigthumbsup  The B772ER is once again saving the day for the KLM operation - although both KL565/NBO and because of that KL427/DXB faced long delays today.
 
sk601
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
The M11 is older than the 744

KL has some B744 that are older than the M11:

B744:
PH-BFA delivered may 1989
PH-BFB june 1989
PH-BFC sept 1989
PH-BFD sept 1989
PH-BFE jan 1990
PH-BFF feb 1990
PH-BFG apr 1990
PH-BFH apr 1990
PH-BFI may 1991
PH-BFK may 1991
PH-BFL dec 1991
PH-BFM feb 1992
PH-BFO oct 1992
PH-BFN apr 1993
PH-BFP sept 1993
PH-BFR jan 1994
PH-BFS oct 1996
PH-BFT may 1997
PH-BFU aug 1997
PH-BFV jan 1998
PH-BFW oct 2000
PH-BFY apr 2002

MD11:
PH-KCA dec 1993
PH-KCB mar 1994
PH-KCC jul 1994
PH-KCD sep 1994
PH-KCE nov 1994
PH-KCF dec 1994
PH-KCG may 1995
PH-KCH sep 1995
PH-KCI nov 1995
PH-KCK apr 1997

Conclusion: 15 out of the 22 B744 KL operates are older then the oldest MD11.
(PH-BFA/B/C/D/E/F/G/H/I/K/L/M/N/O)
 
yhu
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
The M11 is older than the 744, 332 and 772 in in KL fleet. So the M11 fleet likely has a lower OTP, and is likely assigned to the lower yield markets anyway.

While 2 cancelled M11's out of YUL is not good, it's less important than 2 cancelled KL flights out of JFK or IAD for instance with higher yielding business passengers.

Wow, you're able to take absolutely anything and turn it into proof that Montreal as a city and airport sucks.
 
dc10srule
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting YHU" class=quote target=_blank>YHU (Reply 17):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
The M11 is older than the 744, 332 and 772 in in KL fleet. So the M11 fleet likely has a lower OTP, and is likely assigned to the lower yield markets anyway.

While 2 cancelled M11's out of YUL is not good, it's less important than 2 cancelled KL flights out of JFK or IAD for instance with higher yielding business passengers.


Wow, you're able to take absolutely anything and turn it into proof that Montreal as a city and airport sucks.

YHU - Have you thought about switching to decaff coffee???  mischievous 

But seriously - With respect to the KLM cancellations, don't/couldn't the other SKYTEAM members at YUL help reduce the backlog. For example:
NW could fly you from YUL-DTW-AMS
CO: YUL-EWR-AMS, DL: YUL-ATL-AMS, AF: YUL-CDG-AMS etc......
I always thought that an "alliance" would pick up the slack instead of needlessly putting people in hotels.

JA
Giggity-Giggity..!
 
mindscape
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting DC10sRULE (Reply 18):
But seriously - With respect to the KLM cancellations, don't/couldn't the other SKYTEAM members at YUL help reduce the backlog.

Well it does help. I dont know if passengers stayed at YUL's hotel in that situation, but few months ago I was travelling EWR-DTW-AMS on NW. The flight between EWR-DTW has been canceled. I have been rerouted on EWR-CDG-AMS with AF (the KL flight EWR-AMS had already departed).
 
yhu
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting DC10sRULE (Reply 18):
YHU - Have you thought about switching to decaff coffee??? mischievous

I'm not even sure how that makes sense in relation to what I said.
 
flyyul
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting SK601 (Reply 16):
The MD11 is more and more becoming KLM's designated widebody for leisure and lower yielding markets, which is probably one of the reasons why KLM is planning to cope a couple of more years with the less than desirable dispatch reliability. The new cabin configuration has the WBC cabin relegated to just 24 seats. I guess that KLM is banking on the fact that the markets where the MD11 is and will be deployed are less sensitive to these operational irregularities than some of the airline's more premium markets.

1.) I dont agree. The MD11 is a higher unit cost airplane, vs the competitive airplanes in the fleet B772/A332. In order to offset CASM, you need higher RASM. The difference between the A332 and MD11 in terms of J seats, is 6 seats. This represents a negligable difference.

One can argue that KL is assigning the A332/B772 lower unit costs with market that have lower RASM's. Typically, California general depicts that situation with average fare's differences that usually do not meet the added stage length cost.

2.) How would a market with numerous competitors (YUL for example with other airlines offering daily or multi-daily frequencies) be less sensitive to operational irregularity? Should KL turn off pax due to this approach, these pax will remember to go elsewhere during future travels. Especially where there is no shortage of competitors for mainland Europe.

If this is indeed their viewpoint, then they require a reality check.

[Edited 2007-02-07 21:46:19]
 
HT
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting DC10sRULE (Reply 18):
SKYTEAM members at YUL help reduce the backlog. For example:
NW could fly you from YUL-DTW-AMS
CO: YUL-EWR-AMS, DL: YUL-ATL-AMS,

With re-routing pax via the U.S., visa-issues need to be taken into consideration ! Might be a no-no for some of the original pax ...
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
WSOY
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:38 am

Today's "Helsingin Sanomat" (Helsinki, Finland) has it that AY will be increasing the daily utilization rate of its longhaul fleet, including the MD-11s, to 16 hours. This will apparently set the new world record for the type, introduced in 1990, or what says our resident ops expert HB-IWC?

[Edited 2007-02-07 22:39:22]
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
ThePRGuy
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:02 am

Are spare parts an issue now that McD is no more?

Thanks
Alex
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
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yyz717
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 21):
The MD11 is a higher unit cost airplane, vs the competitive airplanes in the fleet B772/A332. In order to offset CASM, you need higher RASM.

This is nonsense. Airlines always put their newest aircraft on their most prestigious (ie, high yeilding) routes since they want the reliability that a new aircraft can provide. The more lesiure oriented routes (such as AMS-YUL, apparently) have the older aircraft with the lower F/J seating and lower reliability (and often, less up-to-date cabins).

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 21):
The difference between the A332 and MD11 in terms of J seats, is 6 seats. This represents a negligable difference.

The Y capacity of the 332 is much smaller than the M11 (since its a smaller aircraft), which means the % of J seats on the 332 fleet is much higher, as befits a newer aircraft allocated to the higher yielding markets.

Quoting YHU (Reply 17):
Wow, you're able to take absolutely anything and turn it into proof that Montreal as a city and airport sucks.

So that's your interpretation when someone points out that the YUL-AMS must be low-yielding? Wow.  Yeah sure
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
A388
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
The dispatch reliability of the 10-strong MD11 fleet is really miserable compared to that of other components - particularly the B772ER - of the KLM widebody fleet.

And we will be getting the MD11 starting this summer schedule, just great!!!  Smile

A388
 
yhu
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 25):
This is nonsense. Airlines always put their newest aircraft on their most prestigious (ie, high yeilding) routes since they want the reliability that a new aircraft can provide. The more lesiure oriented routes (such as AMS-YUL, apparently) have the older aircraft with the lower F/J seating and lower reliability (and often, less up-to-date cabins).

Someone has also pointed out to you that many of the 744's are older than the MD11's. Does that mean that cities getting KLM 747-400's should assume you believe their cities are low yield?
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 28):
Nonsense!!! Air France CDG-Yul route, is a leisure route...let's see...this summer there will be 4 daily flights with 777-300ER, 777-200, 747-400, a332

YUL-CDG is indeed a leisure route as you say, but that route is also a prestige route for AF. Indeed, the A380 is destined for this route according to AF. The fact remains that airlines generally put their newest aircraft on the higher yielding business routes for reliability & they likely have the newest interiors. AC will put the 772LR on the YYZ-HKG with the 345 being relegated to the newer, lower yield YYZ-PVG. Similarly, the higher yielding YYZ-LHR, and YVR-NRT will get the new 777 service relegating the 343 to lower yield routes.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 28):
look yyz717 (bizarre name??)

Wow, very childish.  Yeah sure

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 28):
the Yul-Ams is Profitable!

You don't know that. No one does. You're not an airline insider.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 28):
Correct me if I am wrong, but I have rarely seen airlines use MD-11s for "leisure routes"???

Try JAL (until recently), KLM, LTU, Finnair, VARIG, China Eastern, Korean (until recently), Martinair. THAI.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 28):
best to stay out of this because u don't know what your talkin about!!

According to seatguru.com, the configurations of the KL fleet are:
M11 26J/268Y
332 30J/219Y

The M11 clearly is more geared to the leisure route, otherwise the 332 or 772 would fly the YUL route.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
The MD11 is more and more becoming KLM's designated widebody for leisure and lower yielding markets

The higher Y seat config of the M11 fleet would support your argument. YUL is clearly a (relatively) low yielding market for KL.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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LTU932
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:30 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 29):
Try JAL (until recently), KLM, LTU, Finnair, VARIG, China Eastern, Korean (until recently), Martinair. THAI.

MU, LT, MP, RG (not sure of RG though) don't operate MD-11 PAX flights anymore. You need to get up to date as well because, while JL phased them out sometime in 2005 or so (which should make their phaseout fairly recent), KE converted theirs into Freighters sometime around 1998 so no, KE did not operate the MD-11 PAX until recently.
 
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yyz717
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 30):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 29):
Try JAL (until recently), KLM, LTU, Finnair, VARIG, China Eastern, Korean (until recently), Martinair. THAI.

MU, LT, MP, RG (not sure of RG though) don't operate MD-11 PAX flights anymore. You need to get up to date as well because, while JL phased them out sometime in 2005 or so (which should make their phaseout fairly recent), KE converted theirs into Freighters sometime around 1998 so no, KE did not operate the MD-11 PAX until recently.

You are right, but all these airlines either do, or did, operate the M11 on leisure, or low yield routes. I meant to say "until recently" on more of these carriers. I was refuting the ridiculous assertion that the M11 was never operated on leisure routes.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
coleplane
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:54 pm

RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:11 pm

With a few exceptions, I'm not sure how much age is a factor. Airlines only have so many aircraft and each are huge investments brought into the fleet to meet specific requirements. Until their no longer needed or viable for the airline. Most of the flying public perceive an aircraft's age by the condition of it's interior, which is why millions are spent refurbishing them. To illustrate, KLM's ops happen to require the MD11, A330, and 777 at this time.
"About a nine on the tension scale there Rupe."
 
HB-IWC
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 21):
I dont agree. The MD11 is a higher unit cost airplane, vs the competitive airplanes in the fleet B772/A332. In order to offset CASM, you need higher RASM. The difference between the A332 and MD11 in terms of J seats, is 6 seats. This represents a negligable difference

No need to get all geared up about this argument. The fact that AMS YUL is a lower yielding market for KLM than, say AMS JFK, doesn't in any way entail a pejorative evaluation of the AMS YUL route. Lower yielding does not equal unprofitable. Quite obviously, this route is in one way or the other making money for KLM; if not, it would be long chopped from the airline's network.

That said, if you look at the entire picture of the configuration of the MD11 vs the A332, you indeed see that the A332 carries a relatively more premium configuration:

A332 - 30J/221Y or 12.0% premium seats
MD11 - 24J/270Y or 8.2% premium seats

The mission of the MD11 within the KLM longhaul operation becomes even more clearer when looking at next summer's flying program (the first season of the MD11 in new configuration). Here's the MD11 program for S07:

KL567/569/571 AMS JRO DAR - 7 weekly
KL589/590 AMS ACC - 7 weekly
KL671/672 AMS YUL - 7 weekly
KL681/682 AMS YVR - 7 weekly
KL733/734 AMS AUA - 2 weekly
KL735/736 AMS CUR - 7 weekly
KL765 AMS SXM AUA - 2 weekly
KL769 AMS BON AUA - 1 weekly
KL753/754 AMS BON GYE UIO - 6 weekly
KL871/872 AMS DEL - 7 weekly
KL873/874 AMS HYD - 5 weekly

Most, if not all of the markets that are on the MD11s flying programs are either leisure markets or markets that are showing strong seasonal fluctuations. Not a single of these markets can objectively be called a premium business destination. Not so long ago, KLM was deploying the MD11 to DXB. I am pretty sure that we won't see a repeat of that in the future.

Again there is no need to interpret my remarks about the MD11 deployment as derogatory in any way. Obviously, all of the destinations in the list are valuable in one way or the other for KLM or they would simply not be there. It's just that KLM seems to have opted to deploy the MD11 fleet in these particular markets.

Unlike Yyz717, I am also not making a general case about the MD11 pax version being a lower yielding aircraft. I believe that this very much depends on the operator and the configuration in which the aircraft is deployed in the operator's network. Swissair, in its days operated its 19-strong MD11 fleet in a premium heavy 12F/49C/180Y configuration to some of the most premium destinations in its network.

My point is, again, that for the KLM MD11 fleet, both the configuration and the the flying program point at a lower yielding deployment than other components of the longhaul fleet.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 21):
How would a market with numerous competitors (YUL for example with other airlines offering daily or multi-daily frequencies) be less sensitive to operational irregularity?

Please note that I wasn't saying that. I said that KLM seems to bank on the fact that these destinations are less sensitive to operational instabilities than some other destinations. If one were to look at the on time performance of various stations in the KLM longhaul network, it would become pretty clear that some of the worst performers are served by the MD11.

Quite obviously, KLM is aware of these issues, including the significantly lower dispatch reliability of the MD11 in its fleet. Yet, the S07 program calls for increased flying and increased utilization of the MD11 fleet when compared to that of S06. I do not suppose that KLM has overnight found a miracle solution which will take care of the MD11 issues next summer. Hence, it seems that the airline is just willing to live with these issues for the parts of the network that will be served by the MD11 fleet.
 
goldorak
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:48 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 28):
Air France CDG-Yul route, is a leisure route



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 29):
YUL-CDG is indeed a leisure route as you say, but that route is also a prestige route for AF.

CDG-YUL is both a leisure and business route for AF. Look at the number of J seats proposed every day. I know a lot of people who goes regularly from France to YUL for business reasons.
 
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yyz717
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 35):
Unlike Yyz717, I am also not making a general case about the MD11 pax version being a lower yielding aircraft. I believe that this very much depends on the operator and the configuration in which the aircraft is deployed in the operator's network. Swissair, in its days operated its 19-strong MD11 fleet in a premium heavy 12F/49C/180Y configuration to some of the most premium destinations in its network.

I wasn't making a general case thta the M11 was used as a lower yield aircraft, just that it was used on lower yield routes by some airlines.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:32 pm

HB-IWC,

My only point is that the CASM of the MD11 is likely significantly higher than the competition in the fleet. One way to offset that is to high-dense the airplane, which follows the AF B744 model.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:34 am

The MD11 problems have still not yet been resolved. The second MD11 stuck in YUL didn't make it out this morning and is delayed until late in the evening. Because KLM did not have any more spare MD11 frame, KL589/ACC is today operated by A332. The aircraft will stay at ACC overnight to allow the crew for minimum rest and return tomorrow morning only, approximately 12 hours behind schedule.
 
sk601
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 40):
The MD11 problems have still not yet been resolved

.....and today's KL733 AMS-AUA is delayed until 1940lt....
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting SK601 (Reply 37):
.....and today's KL733 AMS-AUA is delayed until 1940lt....

I guess the small fleet had scores of troubles with the snow  Sad
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
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yowza
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:36 am

I had not idea that frames were so tightly scheduled at KL that a couple of them going tech would cause such havoc. Are KL doing anything to mtigate this or is it simply a case of seeing what happens? Do they have any widebody deliveries penned in for the near future?

YOWza
 
Qazar
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:19 am

HB-IWC,

My emails to you bounced back!!!

Que passa?
 
coleplane
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 32):
Here's the MD11 program for S07:

Enjoyed the info HB-IWC. Thank you.
"About a nine on the tension scale there Rupe."
 
HB-IWC
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:11 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 39):
Do they have any widebody deliveries penned in for the near future?

One A332 and one B772ER have been delivered in the past week or so and another 2 A332 and one B772ER will be added by April, yet all of this capacity will be used to replace the 4 remaining B763ERs in the fleet and cater for expansion. The MD11 flying program, if anything, will be expanded next summer.
 
WSOY
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:17 pm

HB-IWC, have you calculated the coming KLM MD11 utilization figures for the summer yet? Want to publish? Climbing above 16 hours?
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
HB-IWC
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:59 pm

Quoting WSOY (Reply 43):
have you calculated the coming KLM MD11 utilization figures for the summer yet?

This is the info for the coming summer:

MD11 flying program:

KL567/569/571 AMS JRO DAR - 7 weekly
KL589/590 AMS ACC - 7 weekly
KL671/672 AMS YUL - 7 weekly
KL681/682 AMS YVR - 7 weekly
KL733/734 AMS AUA - 2 weekly
KL735/736 AMS CUR - 7 weekly
KL765 AMS SXM AUA - 2 weekly
KL769 AMS BON AUA - 1 weekly
KL753/754 AMS BON GYE UIO - 6 weekly
KL871/872 AMS DEL - 7 weekly
KL873/874 AMS HYD - 5 weekly


Operational Statistics: (last year's numbers in brackets)

Average daily utilization: 15h01 (15h16)
Weekly cycles: 144 (143)
Overnight rotations: 64 (62)
Operational Spares: 6 (8)

The utilization in absolute terms is down from last year, yet there is less operational spare in the system because the number of overnight rotations has increased.

As for the Finnair utilization which is bound to go up to around 16 hours, that is indeed very high, although I doubt it would be a world record, as Swissair, at the height of its expansion move, featured MD11 utilization in the 16h20 range. Finnair's utilization is, for instance, helped by the cutting of short tags as BKK SIN, BKK HKG and the proposed BKK KUL, which will not be operated.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:26 pm

Problems with the MD11 fleet seem to last. Today's KL605/SFO seems to be canceled, and KL671/YUL will be operated by B744 in lieu of the normally scheduled MD11. Also, yesterday's KL589/ACC which was subbed by an A332 iso of the normal MD11 will make it back to AMS 24 hours late, presumably putting KLM short of one A332 frame. Already, yesterday's KL409/ALA was canceled because of the lack of A332.
 
WSOY
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:16 pm

Thanks for the figures, HB-IWC! Forgive me, I'm a layman and need to ask a stupid question: the Operational Spares column. Does that stand for the planes that are relieved from operation for their scheduled service? Or..?

[Edited 2007-02-09 12:18:57]
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
sk601
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 45):
yesterday's KL409/ALA was canceled because of the lack of A332.

HB-IWC, usually there's no need to correct you since you know where you're talking about, but this time I do have to correct you.  Wink

KL409 AMS-ALA departed almost on-time yesterday. STD 18.15, ATD 18.35. This 20 minute delay was due to de-icing. The aircraft, PH-AOH, was finally airborne at 19.05 (Polderbaan?). They made it all the way to ALA, but the fog was so dense in that area that they decided to return to base (probably a diversion to a middle-of-the-no-where airport was no option). KL409 landed safely back in AMS at 05.35 this morning, 10 minutes before the STA of KL410! Total flying time was just over 11 hrs. Apparently they had enough fuel to return without a fuelstop.

My collegue was on board of this flight and said it was a weird experience to see the aircraft make a turn above ALA and head back to AMS. (the pax were informed about this of course). One advantage: M-class was not full, so the passengers were able to stretch out.

Upon arrival in AMS the flight got cancelled and the passenger were put in a hotel.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting SK601 (Reply 47):
usually there's no need to correct you since you know where you're talking about, but this time I do have to correct you.

... and thank you for that! Interesting to see that the aircraft was carrying enough fuel for the entire trip back as well.

Quoting WSOY (Reply 46):
the Operational Spares column. Does that stand for the planes that are relieved from operation for their scheduled service?

Airline operations and their ability to overcome irregularities can be quantified - among other parameters - by the number of active overnight rotations. An overnight rotation represents one aircraft away from the homebase overnight. The 10-strong MD11 fleet represents an operational potential of 70 overnight rotations weekly (7 nights for each of the 10 frames). Next summer, KLM has scheduled 64 such rotations to be operated. That means that 6 overnight rotations remain unused.

In practical terms, this means that on 6 nights of the week, KLM will keep an overnight MD11 spare at Schiphol. Obviously, such overnight stays are necessary for routine maintenance checks. But at the same time, these spares have the potential to replace other frames which have become unavailable because of a variety of reasons. The absence of an operational spare indicates that the airline will have, in case of irregularities, no other option than to cancel a flight or delay it overnight until another frame becomes available.

As such, the number of operational spares is an interesting indicator of the amount of flexibility of an airline's operation.
 
ACDC8
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RE: 2 KL MD11 In YUL

Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 44):
KL681/682 AMS YVR - 7 weekly

That's what I was hoping for! Thank you for sharing the info!
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