NYC777
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New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:20 pm

http://cc.talkpoint.com/LEHM002/020607a_jw/pdf/Boeing.pdf

This is a presentation from Boeing's presentation at the Lehman conference today.

There are a lot of pics of production part including the first production section 41 (slide 38)!!! Great pics straight from Boeing. See slides 17 through 49.

[Edited 2007-02-08 15:37:58]
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EI321
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RE: New Pics Of Of 787 Parts:Boeing Presentation

Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:24 pm

Nice...................Thats looks f**kin slick!
 
NYC777
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:45 pm

No other new info and Boeing is still reiterating May 2008 first delivery.
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GRIVely
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RE: New Pics Of Of 787 Parts:Boeing Presentation

Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:47 pm

Very interesting presentation. Does anyone have a link to a similar presentation for Airbus?

Thanks,

GRIV
 
NYC777
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:05 am

Another example of Boeing being open and forthcoming with information. NExt update will probably be early March when Mike Bair gives a 787 program update.
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11Bravo
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:12 am

The item on page 16 is particularly noteworthy:

"Operating Economics ~2% better than originally predicted"

The B787 has already enjoyed unprecedented sales. Additional efficiency will make it even more attractive. This aircraft is setting the bar very, very high.
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TeamAmerica
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
lot of pics of production part including the first production section 41 (slide 38

Excellent! This ends the debate - Section 41 is a single piece. thumbsup 
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 6):
Excellent! This ends the debate - Section 41 is a single piece.

Yeah, I think Boeing in all the planning never said that sect. 41 was going to be two separate pieces and I don't know how people got that notion.
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TeamAmerica
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:32 am

On a humorous note...for those who participated in a now-deleted thread...it's startling to see the great lengths Boeing is going to in perpetuating this "mythical" airplane. At this rate, they may go so far as to actually build, fly, and deliver it to customers - all just to cover up the fact that it doesn't actually exist!  

[EDIT - turns out the thread is not deleted...see below!]

[Edited 2007-02-08 17:03:47]
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DfwRevolution
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:34 am

Anyone forward these along to the newbie who insisted the 787 was a "ghost plane?"
 
NYC777
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:38 am

Boy now I wish I could see this noow deleted thread and take down names, numbers and license plates!
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N328KF
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):

Yeah, I think Boeing in all the planning never said that sect. 41 was going to be two separate pieces and I don't know how people got that notion.

Because this photo shows it being a smaller section.

Also, on page 40, look at the Saab cargo door. Does that mean that all 787s will be fitted with a large door that will remain static (but available for later use) and then with a smaller inset cargo door for normal passenger use? Or am I misunderstanding what is going on in that photo?
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TeamAmerica
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 11):
Because this photo shows it being a smaller section

Yes, but when first released that photo was clearly identified as a test article and noting that the production item would be much longer. Too many folks look at the pictures and fail to read the stories...just as our girlfriends accuse us. smile 
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
Boy now I wish I could see this noow deleted thread and take down names, numbers and license plates!

Hey...I would've sworn it was deleted, but here it is: Is The 787 A " Ghost plane"...?

Enjoy! biggrin 
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 5):
"Operating Economics ~2% better than originally predicted"

I wonder if that is with the extra weight that needs to be cut, once the weight is on target, could we expect an even better operating economy?

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 8):
deliver it to customers -

Yes and do not forget that on time, and nearly on budget.
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:10 am

I´m waiting for the invitation to Everett for the Tupperware Party 2008.

*couldn´t resist, sorry*

Micke//  Wink
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 6):
Excellent! This ends the debate - Section 41 is a single piece.

It seems pretty clear that 43, 44, 46 and 47 are the only 4 "full barrel" sections, excluding nose section and tail section.

Presumably these 4 equate to the 3 main sections of A350 fuselage that have been discussed.

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):

Fascinating and enjoyable presentation, NYC777.
Many thanks  thumbsup 

Regards
 
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 15):
I´m waiting for the invitation to Everett for the Tupperware Party 2008.

And when's Airbus'...ohhh that's right not until 2014 or is it 2015 or is it 2016. Maybe we'll be flying around in flying cars like the Jetsons by the time Airbus gets its act together. Maybe.
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting CM767 (Reply 14):
I wonder if that is with the extra weight that needs to be cut, once the weight is on target, could we expect an even better operating economy?

I would imagine Boeing would be predicting figures with her current OEW, since Boeing has consistently said the plane is exceeding her performance targets. So even 2% overweight, she's 2% better then expected.

That pesky Boeing...Always under-promising and over-delivering...

*couldn´t resist, sorry*  Wink
 
osiris30
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:17 am

My only wish is that people would learn how to make nice quality PDFs of their powerpoints. Other than that it was very interesting, from a geek perspective. From a new perspective not all that much to see..

The only thing that I found 'noteworthy' was the projected growth of margins by 2% over the next 2-3 years.
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 16):
Fascinating and enjoyable presentation, NYC777.

No problem!!! Big grin
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 13):
Hey...I would've sworn it was deleted, but here it is: Is The 787 A " Ghost plane"...?

Enjoy!

What is airbus feeding that guy? geez didnt really comment of the A350 version 99999 is up to now if we're lucky???  Wink

Thanks for the link NYC777 really interesting to read, cant wait to see the 787 in the sky and then prove all the A lovers wrong.
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hb88
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 3):
Very interesting presentation. Does anyone have a link to a similar presentation for Airbus?

I'm sure there are similar corporate puff-pieces from Airbus floating around on the web  Smile google should bring something up.

Interesting, but nothing really all that new here. This felt very much like an analyst or investors presentation for a conference - relatively low on tech and high on happy messages. Actually, I hadn't checked where it was posted - the Lehman Brothers website from an industry analyst schmoozefest - all is explained!

Some of the market share data seemed to be out a little, but I guess some artistic license is allowed given the apparent differences in order booking criteria for A & B.

Seeing those huge autoclaves is very cool and kudos to Boeing, or rather Alenia, that they've figured out how to control the temperature, cure etc to get a spot-on cure. Without that, the mandrel/barrel technique is an expensive way of making a lot of composite shelters for the homeless.

The spar jigs looked interesting and I think they point to a length limitation & two (three?) piece spar - they must be putting splices in - definitely not ideal for weight but probably acceptable around the pylon. I think this means either Boeing can't achieve the required jig tolerances for a complete span of spar, they've found it too difficult to manipulate a complete spar, or the autoclaves are too short. Interesting.

Also, that underfloor beam looked pretty manky - I hope it was a test component. However, the composite Messier-Dowty gear brace was pretty nice. This, IMO, is going to be one of the real areas where in-service stressing will test the use of composites in major structures.

One thing the presentation really highlights is Boeings function as a systems integrator rather than a designer/manufacturer of aircraft. This, IMO, is the real step-change in relation to the 787.
 
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 22):
One thing the presentation really highlights is Boeings function as a systems integrator rather than a designer/manufacturer of aircraft. This, IMO, is the real step-change in relation to the 787.

Not sure I agree with this, but mostly on wording grounds. I believe most of the core design is still Boeing's. But a lot of the manufacturing is outsourced based on Boeing's designs. So I will agree they are moving from designer/manufacturer to designer/integrator.

It's just that as in any manufacturing scenario the designs occasionaly have to be modified for 'producability'.

Really the new model is smart on their part (IMHO). It limits capital outlay, spreads risk, and allows Boeing to push harder than someone assuming all the risk in house.
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 17):
Quoting Solnabo (Reply 15):
I´m waiting for the invitation to Everett for the Tupperware Party 2008.

And when's Airbus'...ohhh that's right not until 2014 or is it 2015 or is it 2016.

Yes, so we should look forward to our invitations to the Airbus Shell Game 2014.
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hb88
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 23):
Quoting HB88 (Reply 22):
"One thing the presentation really highlights is Boeings function as a systems integrator rather than a designer/manufacturer of aircraft. This, IMO, is the real step-change in relation to the 787."

Not sure I agree with this, but mostly on wording grounds. I believe most of the core design is still Boeing's. But a lot of the manufacturing is outsourced based on Boeing's designs. So I will agree they are moving from designer/manufacturer to designer/integrator.

It's just that as in any manufacturing scenario the designs occasionaly have to be modified for 'producability'.

Really the new model is smart on their part (IMHO). It limits capital outlay, spreads risk, and allows Boeing to push harder than someone assuming all the risk in house.

You're right. I was typing too fast as usual. But at a detail level, I think the label systems integrator is pretty apt.

The model isn't unique - we've (Airbus) been doing it for ages, outsourcing manufacture & design from France to cheap outsourced locations such as the UK, Spain & Germany (oops, and the US, Russia, India and China)  Wink

Seriously, it is indeed an interesting model - the upside being offloading much of the risk, but the downside being at the mercy of the supply chain which you may have significantly less direct control over. Excellent if it works, a catastrophe if it doesn't.
 
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:36 am

Well so far the suppiers in teh supply chain are working out well for Boeing the hiccups thus far notwithstanding. I have it from a reliable source that the problems at the 3 Japanese heavies are behind them and that Alenia is almost all caught up.

Look for Boeing to have the 6 aircraft test fleet all flying before the end of the year plus at least 6 to 8 more 787s built for customers though not completely ready for delivery (they can't be delivered until the aircraft is certified of curse but they can build and stockpile them). By May 2008 there should be about 30 aircraft built.

I thik that as Boeing test flight program reveals items that need to be revised,, they'll revise them and integrated into the prodution airplanes as well as those already built.
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osiris30
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 25):
You're right. I was typing too fast as usual. But at a detail level, I think the label systems integrator is pretty apt.

I figured but wanted to get on that point before all hell broke loose  Wink

Quoting HB88 (Reply 25):
The model isn't unique - we've (Airbus) been doing it for ages, outsourcing manufacture & design from France to cheap outsourced locations such as the UK, Spain & Germany (oops, and the US, Russia, India and China)

Nope. And it's not even unique to Airbus/aviation. Lots of companies have gone that route with both good and bad results as you've stated. Luckily for Boeing it appears at this time they are going to be looking at the good results scenario.

The biggest benefit as I say isn't even in the final product, but in that it allows one to be more aggressive with the final product as failure doesn't leave you holding the entire bag. Not that I'm saying Boeing will fail, but it is a nice safety net to have when making long-term strategic product decisions.
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 22):
Some of the market share data seemed to be out a little, but I guess some artistic license is allowed given the apparent differences in order booking criteria for A & B.

You are right! Boeing probably has a bigger market share than what was printed. I mean Airbus adds 17 days to its calendar year when reporting jets sold! Wink
 
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 28):
You are right! Boeing probably has a bigger market share than what was printed.

No. It's actually slightly smaller than what was printed even taking into account the different ways of counting.
 
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
No other new info and Boeing is still reiterating May 2008 first delivery.

Actually, this presentation suggests to me that EIS has been shifted to the right, to early/mid July 2008. Take a close look at page 49.
 
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 28):
I mean Airbus adds 17 days to its calendar year when reporting jets sold! Wink

Sorry, I missed that bit! Where does the 17 days come from? First I've heard of it and I work there.
 
NYC777
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 30):
Actually, this presentation suggests to me that EIS has been shifted to the right, to early/mid July 2008. Take a close look at page 49.

Oh please you can't get that from a presentation with out any firm frame of reference. You're just starting another Boeing hate fest. McNerney said it on Tuesday, Scott Carson and Randy Baseleer said it today..The 787 will be delivered in May 2008.

Stop reading imaginary dates into something.
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hb88
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 30):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
"No other new info and Boeing is still reiterating May 2008 first delivery."

Actually, this presentation suggests to me that EIS has been shifted to the right, to early/mid July 2008. Take a close look at page 49.

You are quite right. Mind you, 6 weeks is nothing - unless it's an Airbus 6 weeks, which are like dog weeks. You need to multiply by a *big* number to determine the *real* delay  Wink

[for the avoidance of doubt, the irony lamp is lit]
 
vivek0072
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:14 am

Interesting, thanks for posting.
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 30):
Actually, this presentation suggests to me that EIS has been shifted to the right, to early/mid July 2008. Take a close look at page 49.



Quoting HB88 (Reply 33):

You are quite right. Mind you, 6 weeks is nothing - unless it's an Airbus 6 weeks, which are like dog weeks. You need to multiply by a *big* number to determine the *real* delay

This is a bunch of hooey. You can't rely on Powerpoint's sense of numerical precision.
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NYC777
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:17 am

Boy ther eare a few people on this forum who will be easting some serious crow when the 787 is delivered on time.
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TeamAmerica
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 22):
The spar jigs looked interesting and I think they point to a length limitation & two (three?) piece spar - they must be putting splices in - definitely not ideal for weight but probably acceptable around the pylon. I think this means either Boeing can't achieve the required jig tolerances for a complete span of spar, they've found it too difficult to manipulate a complete spar, or the autoclaves are too short. Interesting.

Could also be that the wings for the various models share a common structure between the root and the pylon.
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Jahmike
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:20 am

I am a Boeing fan, but for them to have the first flt this year and first delivery early 08 would be amazing.
 
osiris30
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting Jahmike (Reply 38):
I am a Boeing fan, but for them to have the first flt this year and first delivery early 08 would be amazing.

Better practice your amazed look then.
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 35):
This is a bunch of hooey. You can't rely on Powerpoint's sense of numerical precision.

Sure, if you don't have other sources to back up the assertion, this may look like just another PPT glitch.
 
NYC777
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 35):
This is a bunch of hooey. You can't rely on Powerpoint's sense of numerical precision.

Quite right. There are people who are going to take a slide and point as proof that ther is something awry. It's a general slide show ing the timeline and not giving precise dates. Though the A-fans, still smarting from the embarassment that is the A380 will grab at straws in order to show that Boeing is no better.
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 40):
Sure, if you don't have other sources to back up the assertion, this may look like just another PPT glitch.

I don't get you. You rely upon one indication (which may or may not be a programmatical issue) that the program is delayed? Don't you think that Boeing would actually make such an announcement during the call itself? People are so damn eager to see Boeing fail in the same way that Airbus did that they are willing to grasp at anything. And you have the cajones to demand a source from me? I am not making any assertion other than that you can't rely upon Powerpoint for precision. You are the one trying to find a major product delay announcement in a simple marketing brief.

[Edited 2007-02-08 19:38:34]
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Dougloid
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 17):
Quoting Solnabo (Reply 15):
I´m waiting for the invitation to Everett for the Tupperware Party 2008.

And when's Airbus'...ohhh that's right not until 2014 or is it 2015 or is it 2016. Maybe we'll be flying around in flying cars like the Jetsons by the time Airbus gets its act together. Maybe.

Dang...you beat me to the spankin'.


 Wink  Wink  Wink
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astuteman
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 21):
cant wait to see the 787 in the sky and then prove all the A lovers wrong.

As an "A lover", (well, according to the missus  Wink ) I take exception to that.
I can't wait to see the 787 in service. I hope it meets its promises, and I hope it shows a) that the business model works, as well as the technical one, and b) it proves that Boeing can manage the paradigm shift in the business model successfully.
To plagarise NAV20, the 787 "feels right", and I'm hoping it will serve as a wake-up call to "my beloved" Airbus with respect to how to manage an airline manufacturer in the strategic sense.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 23):
Quoting HB88 (Reply 22):
One thing the presentation really highlights is Boeings function as a systems integrator rather than a designer/manufacturer of aircraft. This, IMO, is the real step-change in relation to the 787.

Not sure I agree with this, but mostly on wording grounds

It's certainly not a criticism AFAIK. In fact being a "Systems Integrator" is the underpinning of BAE SYSTEMS entire corporate strategy  Smile

It needs some more fundamental skills than just being a good manufacturer.
See above..  Smile

Regards
 
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 41):
Though the A-fans, still smarting from the embarassment that is the A380 will grab at straws in order to show that Boeing is no better.

I guess any REAL A-fan should sincerely hope that B pulls off the stunt and stays on schedule. THIS Boeing achievement will be of pivotal importance to make some fundamental changes happen at Airbus.
 
hb88
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 35):
Quoting HB88 (Reply 33):

You are quite right. Mind you, 6 weeks is nothing - unless it's an Airbus 6 weeks, which are like dog weeks. You need to multiply by a *big* number to determine the *real* delay

This is a bunch of hooey. You can't rely on Powerpoint's sense of numerical precision.

Frankly, powerpoint is evil. But there is no specific law that says that the 787 can't be put under the a.net microscope in exactly the way that the 380 or the 350 has been in the past - even if it is speculation, guesstimates, half-assed, fully-assed etc. There are no sacred cows in this forum.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 37):
Could also be that the wings for the various models share a common structure between the root and the pylon.

Possibly. But it looked like there was an outboard splice as well. Even if there was a common inboard structure, I'm guessing that the advantage of a continuous spar would outweigh the advantage of breaking the spar at the pylon or at an outboard location to provide manufacturing commonality.
 
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
This is a presentation from Boeing's presentation at the Lehman conference today.

Thanks for the heads up, fantastic airplane. Can't wait to see them flying. That was a very well put together presentation. Impressive
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 46):
Frankly, powerpoint is evil. But there is no specific law that says that the 787 can't be put under the a.net microscope in exactly the way that the 380 or the 350 has been in the past - even if it is speculation, guesstimates, half-assed, fully-assed etc. There are no sacred cows in this forum.

There's nothing wrong with asking questions about the 787. But Powerpoint graphs are necessarily imprecise. Go create one yourself and you'll see what I mean. Besides, people have commented that this presentation seemed sort of sloppy, and this date discrepancy would be another indicator.

My point still stands: If the 787 is delayed (and it may well be), this is not how you'll find out. I am not taking issue with the idea of the airframe itself being delayed, but the method people are using to reach for that idea.
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RE: New Pics Of 787 Parts: Boeing Presentation

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 44):
It's certainly not a criticism AFAIK. In fact being a "Systems Integrator" is the underpinning of BAE SYSTEMS entire corporate strategy

Well I believe Boeing hassaid that they themselves are being more of a systems integrator rather than a manufacturer. They give vision and guidnce to the project but let the subcontractors do all the design and manufaturing in house. And like it was said earlier..this is not new in the world. If anythinkg it'll become the norm. If Airbus can get over the hurdles laid out by the EU govts (France and Germany) as well as the unions then you could also be seeing them becoming a systems integrator.

That's only if the German, French govts and the Unions allow it be.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.

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