BWI757
Topic Author
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:58 am

Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:19 am

Fair use excerpt:

A mid-air collision between Israeli and Spanish airliners at Ben-Gurion International Airport was averted before sundown Thursday, an Airports Authority official said.

An El Al plane was approaching the runway for landing when an Iberian Airlines plane suddenly turned into its path, Arieh Gilad told Channel 2 television.

He said the El Al airliner managed to avoid the other plane when they were around two kilometers apart, 20 seconds from a collision.


Full article here:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/823719.html


BWI757
I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting BWI757 (Thread starter):
He said the El Al airliner managed to avoid the other plane when they were around two kilometers apart, 20 seconds from a collision.

Ouch, shades of Tenerife in the 70'S. Thank goodness the El AL pulled up in time. Wonder why the Iberia suddenly did that, language problems?
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:39 am

I'll bet the El Al Paranoia Police Patrol crapped their pants and thought it was a terrorist attack of some kind.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
avi
Posts: 879
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:01 am

It is still not clear what happened. Both aircrafts did the RNAV 30 procedure. It means they both came from the west, flew south to the airport heading south-east and than had to make a left U turn into runway 30. The IB did it too early and the reason for it is under investigation.

On one Israeli aviation forum someone said that ATC told the IB that he should see an LY traffic on final, the IB said he does and was instructed to take the U turn. The problem was, probably, that the ATC and IB didn't talk about the same traffic and this is why the IB took the turn too early, cutting the second LY path. The IB probably didn't know - for some strange reason - that he is number 3 and not number 2 for landing (which means there is an ATC problem here too and the IB is not 100% fault as everyone thinks).

I don't think there was a language problem here, I thing it was a situational awareness thing. The IB pilot had to know how many LY aircrafts are ahead of him, after all he flew behind them for a long time. It should be very easy to know what happened here after listening to the ATC recording and the IB CVR.
Long live the B747
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:49 am

I must say I have some difficulty understanding what happened. Was the IB plane that lower in order to make the "U-turn" to the runway that earlier compared to the LY 767? According to the reports, the IB plane was descending more abruptly and turned all of a sudden "left" in order to land, going thus strait into the path of the LY plane also about to land. That's really weird, because usually all planes seem to follow approximately the same semi circle when landing from the east; what went suddenly through the head of the IB pilot??
According to the newspapers in Hebrew, LY said that the incident was caused by a "very serious error" on the part of the IB pilots. It would be interesting to hear the version of events from the part of the IB pilot; at the time the online articles were published, the IB representative in Israel did not comment on the event.

Also, the dialogue between the IB crew and the ATC seems somewhat weird, the tower telling at one point: "Iberia, there's traffic in the air, do you see it?" and then asking the pilot to turn right, but he continued his turn to the left into the LY's path.

Was the distance between all the incoming airplanes sufficient? What would have happened if this incident took place during night time, or during another period of limited visibility? It seems that the disaster was avoided thanks to the fact that the LY pilot was able to see the IB plane and its weird move and thus was able to avoid it; the ATC might have proved unable to avoid the accident. Maybe we'll never see exactly what happened and why.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 2):
I'll bet the El Al Paranoia Police Patrol crapped their pants and thought it was a terrorist attack of some kind.

Unnecessary out of place comment, only meant to provoke and offend...
Even though you are suggesting the opposite, there are terror attacks and attempted attacks against all kind of Israeli interests, and El Al, as the main Israeli airline, has been a target over the last 4 decades and is so today, maybe more than ever.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:54 am

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 4):
Even though you are suggesting the opposite, there are terror attacks and attempted attacks against all kind of Israeli interests, and El Al, as the main Israeli airline, has been a target over the last 4 decades and is so today, maybe more than ever.

Like I said. Paranoia. Is a tourist taking a photo of an El Al aircraft really a threat?

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:22 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 5):
Like I said. Paranoia

First, you said more than just "paranoia"; your sentence is flamebeit and insensitive:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 2):
the El Al Paranoia Police Patrol crapped their pants and thought

...


Secondly, even without your questionable humor, there's no question of paranoia. Being frightened to board a bus in Israel or to eat in a restaurant is "paranoia"? being frightened by Ahmadinedjad's extermination wishes is also "paranoia"? installing anti-missile systems in Israel and on Israeli commercial planes is still "paranoia"? If your answer is yes, then paranoia should get a new meaning....

And finally, this highly humoristic contribution has nothing to do with the thread... In the present case, it seems that a potentially terrible disaster was averted thanks to the rapid and adequate reactions of the crew (even though they are surely related in one way or another to the despicable El Al Paranoia Police Patrol...)
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 6):
El Al Paranoia Police Patrol

What's their official title?

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:58 am

Steer back on topic...

Pretty lucky about the swerving....this isn't the first time Spain's airport authorities have messed up with this (Tenerife!)....perhaps improvement is needed?
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
User avatar
BreninTW
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:31 pm

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 8):
this isn't the first time Spain's airport authorities

But this took place on approach to Ben Gurion -- which is in Israel Big grin Don't think we can quite pin the blame on Spanish Airport Authorities.
 
CXfirst
Posts: 2875
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:27 pm

It says the El Al plane was a 767 with 170 passengers, but does not mention what type of plane IB were using and how many passengers they had. Just wondering, if they had collided, how large a crash compared to other disasters this would have been.

-CXfirst
 
User avatar
BreninTW
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:31 pm

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 10):
what type of plane IB were using

IB's website indicates that BCN - TLV is flown with a mixture of A320/321 and MD87.
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:39 am

Any new details available?

Why did the IB pilot decide to make such a manoeuvre?

Did the air control tower react properly, on time, and according to procedures?

This incident seems sooooo weird...!
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
rmcf
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:50 pm

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 8):
perhaps improvement is needed?

So AENA should now improve airports in Israel? The incident took place, as Brenintw said, in Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv, Israel.
The Tenerife disaster took place in 1977, 30 years ago, so I think (and I hope!)that airport security has been improved since then!
I read something about this incident earlier this week in a spanish newspaper, but they didn't said anything interesting: no details nor facts...
bye! rmcf
 
imatams
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:42 pm

RE: Near Mid-air Collision At TLV LY & IB

Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:13 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 7):
El Al Paranoia Police Patrol

What's their official title?

Shabak or Shin Bet. They deal with aviation security, among a lot of other things.

IM