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1337Delta764
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Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:47 am

As you should know, Delta is acquiring 13 ex-TWA 757s. These are to be used on the lesser Hawaii routes and some third-tier European routes. The used 757 market is hot and could be difficult to come by, especially with P&W engines. Does anyone of any ETOPS-rated P&W-powered 757s available besides the ex-TWA aircraft?

Also, I woudln't rule out if Delta gets some used 767-300ERs. The slots for the 787 are full, and Delta could use more 767s as a stopgap solution. These 767-300ERs could either be used on the ATL-HNL route in domestic configuration to free the 767-400ER for international routes, or Delta could use it on more transatlantic routes. They could also replace Delta's non-ER 767-300s. Since Delta operates both GE and P&W-powered 767s, there isn't much of a problem with engines here, as GE and P&W both make up large portions of the 767 market, while RR's share is much smaller.

What are your thoughts on this?
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okie73
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:02 am

Delta is still trying to pick up a couple more of the TWA/AA 757s. As far as used 767s, I have not heard or read a thing about it. But, would not surprise me.

787 slots are taken for some years, but remember many of those slots are taken by leasing companies. I would be surprised if all of those 787s are spoken for.
 
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:36 pm

The 763ER (rightly) remains a popular airplane. Used frames are difficult to come by. What might be more likely (though still probably not going to happen) is actually an order for some new 763ERs. The UPS order breathed some life into the line, and there's no reason Boeing wouldn't do it, especially if it were in conjunction with a 787 order which could not be fulfilled right away.
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litz
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:41 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
What might be more likely (though still probably not going to happen) is actually an order for some new 763ERs.

And remember, these planes - as new orders - would come available long before any open 787 slots would.

- litz
 
Gatorman96
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:52 pm

Is there any way (or reason) Delta would order more 767-400ER's?
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okie73
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 4):
Is there any way (or reason) Delta would order more 767-400ER's?

if Delta were to order an aircraft that big, I think they would go right to the 777.
 
VictorKilo
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:11 am

On the Speednews website, there are 6 PW-powered 767-300ER aircraft available for sale or lease - 3 currently used by AirCanada, 2 used by Royal Brunei, and one used by Air China. These frames are all 12-16 years old, and still have some life left in them. There are more 767-300ER's available than 777's (the 2 ex-Varig ex-United -200A's), A340's (1 ex-Air Madrid -300 and the 2 AirCanada -500's), A330's (3 ex-Austrian -200's that may be going to TP), or 747-400's (1 ex-United and one South African).

So while I doubt that Delta really needs more 767-300ER's (I would expect United to need them more than Delta), they are relatively more used examples available than other widebody types.
 
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 5):
if Delta were to order an aircraft that big, I think they would go right to the 777.

Thats possible but as I recall there were some problems with the payscales between the 763 and the 772 which is what pushed them into buying the 764. Honestly I've always said that I think that DL could get 5-10 B764s and configure them with a smaller F class and operate them on the Florida and high density runs. The B764 was originally supose to be a replacement for the L10s.

With all the problems of downsizing and recalling I would guess they might go for more 763s or 764s, however with the small number of 772s they own if they want to continue to expand to far out destinations they will need more 772...Time will tell on this one.
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bucky707
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting AkjetBlue (Reply 7):
Thats possible but as I recall there were some problems with the payscales between the 763 and the 772 which is what pushed them into buying the 764.

There were no pay issues that pushed them into one aircraft or the other. Some people say, (though I disagree) but some say that there were pay issues that caused Delta to not order all the 777s they really wanted. In fact the 767-400 was ordered before the 777.

The 764 was bought as an L-1011 replacement to be flown on high density domestic routes and to Hawaii. The management team who purchased the 764 never really envisioned sending it on international routes. We finally got in some smart network management folks who immediatley figured out that flying these huge airplanes domestically was killing our yields.
 
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:01 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
As you should know, Delta is acquiring 13 ex-TWA 757s. These are to be used on the lesser Hawaii routes and some third-tier European routes. The used 757 market is hot and could be difficult to come by, especially with P&W engines. Does anyone of any ETOPS-rated P&W-powered 757s available besides the ex-TWA aircraft?

Word is they now must compete with FedEx for them since FedEx is going after any RR or P&W powered 752s available. Lets hope they can get these additional 2 birds to do Hawaii from SLC or Europe from JFK rather than some domestic cargo haul from MEM.
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WesternA318
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:18 pm

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 5):
if Delta were to order an aircraft that big, I think they would go right to the 777.



Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 8):
The 764 was bought as an L-1011 replacement to be flown on high density domestic routes and to Hawaii. The management team who purchased the 764 never really envisioned sending it on international routes. We finally got in some smart network management folks who immediatley figured out that flying these huge airplanes domestically was killing our yields.

 checkmark  It's about time management in DL sees the 764 as something MORE than a Mainland-HNL or ATL-SLC, ATL-Florida big rig...
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LASoctoberB6
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:19 pm

where exactly would DL just "pick up" more 757s?
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:57 pm

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 11):
where exactly would DL just "pick up" more 757s?

AA for example, like they already do. There's still 6 planes don't have a new owner yet.
 
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:29 pm

How many 767s & 757s are in storage???
 
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 10):
Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 8):
The 764 was bought as an L-1011 replacement to be flown on high density domestic routes and to Hawaii. The management team who purchased the 764 never really envisioned sending it on international routes. We finally got in some smart network management folks who immediately figured out that flying these huge airplanes domestically was killing our yields.

 checkmark  It's about time management in DL sees the 764 as something MORE than a Mainland-HNL or ATL-SLC, ATL-Florida big rig...

DL used to use their 763/64ER fleet very inefficiently. I think you can say they are seeking a maximum yield with such a fleet with all the ATL/NYC-JFK-Europe offerings they now have. SLC-HNL is a very good use of the 764ER, but the other two Hawaii routes DL does to OGG and KOA from SLC are best served with an ETOPs 752.
The only correct move the prior management regime at DL made was to move up to the 764ER and the 772ER and dump the tri-stars and MD-11s. I think Grinstein's regime is correct in going after more 752s and the 772LR. The 752 will be the main trans-con a/c for some years to come. It took over the roll the DC-8 had with DL starting in the mid 1980s.
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting AkjetBlue (Reply 7):
Honestly I've always said that I think that DL could get 5-10 B764s and configure them with a smaller F class and operate them on the Florida and high density runs. The B764 was originally supose to be a replacement for the L10s.

These routes are already fairly low yielding. More seats means even lower yield. DL flying 767 of all series all over the USA caught up with them a few years ago. It is supply and demand.

Maybe DL needs more 757/767 for international flying, some domestic routes and Hawaii, 5-10 764s would certainly not help yields on most domestic routes. I agree, no more 764s, get 772s.

On a side note, I hear BHM will start getting the 752 again.

M
 
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 15):
Maybe DL needs more 757/767 for international flying, some domestic routes and Hawaii, 5-10 764s would certainly not help yields on most domestic routes. I agree, no more 764s, get 772s.

 checkmark  Especially the 772LR, since many of these routes will need the extra lift and range capacity such as ATL-JNB. Even an ATL-PVG route might really need a 773ER.
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:13 am

The 764 is a much lower cost airplane to fly than the 763 because it burns about the same amount of fuel and has similar crew costs - as few as 1 extra flight attendant. The 764 is ideal for ATL and JFK to Europe, including some of DL's European routes from JFK. However, I don't think DL will order the 764 because it will be too dated compared with the 787 by the time new 764s would be retired.

DL needs 777s and not necessarily all 777LRs. There are some routes that can be done w/ the few LRs DL will have and there are routes that can be done with 763ERs but many more routes are best suited for 772ERs.

Every add'l 757 DL acquires translates into one more 767 that can be pulled off European flying and moved to longer routes such as Africa and parts of Asia.

Boeing may be sold out but they are not unaware that DL needs airplanes and if they can't get what DL needs, DL can go to Airbus. Boeing has often worked to create an airplane package for customers that includes leases that bridge the time until new airplanes are available. Boeing certainly knows what airplanes each of its customers would be willing to part with.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
Boeing may be sold out but they are not unaware that DL needs airplanes and if they can't get what DL needs, DL can go to Airbus. Boeing has often worked to create an airplane package for customers that includes leases that bridge the time until new airplanes are available. Boeing certainly knows what airplanes each of its customers would be willing to part with.

I don't see Delta going with the A350. The smallest A350 variant is significantly larger than the 767-300. The 787-8 is a better fit into Delta's fleet to replace their 767-300ERs on international routes, while Delta could convert a few of the remaining 767-300ERs to domestic configuration to replace the non-ER 767-300s.
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Alitalia744
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
Boeing may be sold out but they are not unaware that DL needs airplanes and if they can't get what DL needs, DL can go to Airbus. Boeing has often worked to create an airplane package for customers that includes leases that bridge the time until new airplanes are available. Boeing certainly knows what airplanes each of its customers would be willing to part with.


I forsee something being "shifted" around.

[Edited 2007-02-13 02:40:09]
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:01 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 19):
I forsee something being "shifted" around.

Such as a rapid replacement plan for the MD-88/90s with some 738s and 737-700s?
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Alitalia744
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
Such as a rapid replacement plan for the MD-88/90s with some 738s and 737-700s?

Oh c'mon, the MDs are so quiet in 2A/B  Wink
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 21):
Oh c'mon, the MDs are so quiet in 2A/B  wink 


They likewise do such a great job at pissing off the NIMBY's virtually everywhere! (the MD-90s not so much).
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Alitalia744
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 22):
They likewise do such a great job at pissing off the NIMBY's virtually everywhere! (the MD-90s not so much).

What do the NIMBY's kno? Long live the Mad-Dog!
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:16 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 23):
What do the NIMBY's know? Long live the Mad-Dog!

Actually it wouldn't surprise me to say the least that DL looked at some used 737-700s as options as well as a few additional 752s with P&W engines. They've deferred taking delivery of some of their options on 738s, but have indicated a desire to add the 737-700 to their fleet since it would work well in commonality with the 738s and be a far better a/c than the Mad-Dogs!
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Alitalia744
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 24):
Actually it wouldn't surprise me to say the least that DL looked at some used 737-700s as options as well as a few additional 752s with P&W engines. They've deferred taking delivery of some of their options on 738s, but have indicated a desire to add the 737-700 to their fleet since it would work well in commonality with the 738s and be a far better a/c than the Mad-Dogs!

well we know they're gettin' 13 752s and 10 73Gs and eventually an incremental 12 738s (altho I suspect these will eventually be converted to 73Gs as well...).

that being said, they're looking, but now it'll turn into a bidding war with FedEx for 757s.

altho i'm sure there's more than meets the eye that neither of us are posting...  Smile
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:25 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 25):
well we know they're gettin' 13 752s and 10 73Gs and eventually an incremental 12 738s (altho I suspect these will eventually be converted to 73Gs as well...).

I think that is the official start of the end of the Mad-Dog era at DL!.  weeping   hissyfit   duck 
As for additional 752s, I'm certain FedEx can pick up some RR powered birds for less since they are more common than the P&W types. But yes, FedEx is now a threat to steal away any 752s on the market since they and UPS love to prey upon used a/c like that.
The 73G and the 738 will be the regular narrow-body for DL, and the 752 the larger trans-con' in this class.
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laca773
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
The 764 is ideal for ATL and JFK to Europe, including some of DL's European routes from JFK. However, I don't think DL will order the 764 because it will be too dated compared with the 787 by the time new 764s would be retired.

I know this may sound outlandish or just psychotic, but since DL hasn't ordered any 787s as of yet and with the large backlog of orders it would seem to me it would be feasible for them to order some more 764s to fly until they can get a small workable fleet going of 787s. How long would an order of 5-10 etc., take to manufacture, deliver to them? Just a thought..

LACA773
 
WesternA318
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:04 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 26):
I think that is the official start of the end of the Mad-Dog era at DL!.

That would be a sad day indeed...
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:43 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
Boeing may be sold out but they are not unaware that DL needs airplanes and if they can't get what DL needs, DL can go to Airbus. Boeing has often worked to create an airplane package for customers that includes leases that bridge the time until new airplanes are available. Boeing certainly knows what airplanes each of its customers would be willing to part with.

Hell would freeze over before Delta buys Airbus planes again.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 22):
They likewise do such a great job at pissing off the NIMBY's virtually everywhere!

Which is why the MadDogs are such great planes Big grin .

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 25):
well we know they're gettin' 13 752s and 10 73Gs and eventually an incremental 12 738s (altho I suspect these will eventually be converted to 73Gs as well...).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that out of all the 738s DL has on order, they themselves will only take delivery of 2 in 2009, with all others sold upon delivery to a third party.
 
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
The UPS order breathed some life into the line, and there's no reason Boeing wouldn't do it, especially if it were in conjunction with a 787 order which could not be fulfilled right away.

I think Randy would kiss anyone who ordered a 767 right now; they want to keep the line open until the Air Force decides on the tanker.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 29):
Hell would freeze over before Delta buys Airbus planes again.

What bad experience did Delta have with Airbus?
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cba
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:04 pm

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 5):
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 4):
Is there any way (or reason) Delta would order more 767-400ER's?

if Delta were to order an aircraft that big, I think they would go right to the 777.

The 777 is booked solid over the next few years regarding delivery slots. Additional 767-400ER wouldn't be a bad stop-gap solution for European routes, thus freeing up 777's for Africa/Asia expansion.

Quoting AkjetBlue (Reply 7):
Honestly I've always said that I think that DL could get 5-10 B764s and configure them with a smaller F class and operate them on the Florida and high density runs.

Their entire 764 fleet used to do Hawaii and Florida runs only. Now they are being moved to international flights, as the lightbulb finally clicked on in the minds of DL management.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 16):
Especially the 772LR, since many of these routes will need the extra lift and range capacity such as ATL-JNB. Even an ATL-PVG route might really need a 773ER.

DL doesn't operate the 773ER, only the 772ER. They have 2 777-200LR's on order. ATL-PVG is only 6600nm, well within the range of their current 777's. ATL-JNB would definately benefit from the 777-200LR.
 
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:10 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 30):
What bad experience did Delta have with Airbus?

Unsatisfactory performance of their A310s, but mostly it's DL just being a very loyal and satisfied Boeing customer rather than DL hating Airbus. Besides, Boeing is one of DL's creditors  Wink .

Quoting Cba (Reply 31):
Additional 767-400ER wouldn't be a bad stop-gap solution for European routes, thus freeing up 777's for Africa/Asia expansion.

Only problem is that there are no more Euro 777 routes left where DL could pull a 777 from.
 
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:52 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 32):
Unsatisfactory performance of their A310s, but mostly it's DL just being a very loyal and satisfied Boeing customer rather than DL hating Airbus. Besides, Boeing is one of DL's creditors   .

It was really bad when DL returned their A310-300s to lessor. Airbus did everything they could to gum up the works. They rejected repairs that came straight out of the SRM etc. The funny thing was that there were two groups of engineers that were on sight in ATL during this periond, one German and one French. I disntinctly remember the Germans being great to work with. When they were replaced by the French team it was another story. Of course by this time there was already bad blood between DL and Airbus.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:17 am

Indeed, but in fairness to Airbus, it was also a bit of a lost cause anyway, because DL had more or less decided that their transatlantic plane of choice would be the 763ER long-term, alongside the bigger MD-11s (and later 777s), though without the problems, one could speculate that the A310s might have lasted longer in DL's fleet and been used to smaller markets where the 763ER would have been too big.
 
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 31):
thus freeing up 777's for Africa/Asia expansion.

...all of their 777s are already committed to Asian-only operations at this point, with domestic ops as a spare and as a transition between gateways.
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jbmitt
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 35):

...all of their 777s are already committed to Asian-only operations at this point, with domestic ops as a spare and as a transition between gateways.

I think that Dubai, UAE and Tel Aviv, Israel are generally noted as Southwest Asia, or Middle East. Your post made me think more Pacific crossings versus Atlantic to Asian locations.

Bombay is still routed in an easterly direction.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting Jbmitt (Reply 36):
I think that Dubai, UAE and Tel Aviv, Israel are generally noted as Southwest Asia, or Middle East. Your post made me think more Pacific crossings versus Atlantic to Asian locations.

Bombay is still routed in an easterly direction.

Whether the plane routes east or west, the destinations are SW Asia/ME. Asia was a generalization.

Net - the planes aren't flying to Europe.
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papatango
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:52 am

Where will Delta be flying these ex TWA757-200er's they are receiving?
 
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 15):
On a side note, I hear BHM will start getting the 752 again.

Do tell!
I suppose this will be to cut the considerable number of MD-80 flights from BHM to ATL and back?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting Jbmitt (Reply 36):
Your post made me think more Pacific crossings versus Atlantic to Asian locations.

...that sounds more like a personal issue than a factual one.

Quoting Papatango (Reply 38):
Where will Delta be flying these ex TWA757-200er's they are receiving?

As has been stated ad nauseum, despite a slight initial difference in fuel capacity-- there is no such aircraft as a 757-200ER, despite whatever ridiculous SQ-like nomenclature airlines may choose to ascribe to a given fleet.

That stated, DL has not made public their intended destinations for the aircraft; conventional conjecture being west coast/rockies to Hawai'i, east coast to Europe, and/or Atlanta to Latin America.
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bucky707
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:05 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 40):
As has been stated ad nauseum, despite a slight initial difference in fuel capacity-- there is no such aircraft as a 757-200ER, despite whatever ridiculous SQ-like nomenclature airlines may choose to ascribe to a given fleet.

true and not true. Its more than just fuel capacity which seperates these 757s from other 757s. While I don't think Boeing ever produced a model that was called a 757ER, there are in fact models with all the equipment that the 767ER has.......bigger fuel tanks, HMG, extra fire suppression in the cargo holds, bigger engines, increased gross weight. No matter what these airplanes were called, in everyway that a 767ER is an ER aircraft, the same could be said of the 757s with the same equipment.
 
lotsamiles
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:33 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 41):
Its more than just fuel capacity which seperates these 757s from other 757s.

Check the technical specs on the 757-200 as published by Boeing. All models had 11,276 gallon capacity. There are differences for ETOPS, perhaps that is what you are referring to. As for increased gross weight, as the model evolved all frames were built with the capability to have the increased gross weight. All frames above line 298 can go to the max weights (MTOW, MLW, MZFW) with only a "paper" MC from Boeing.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 41):
bigger fuel tanks

Quoting Lotsamiles,reply=42:
All models had 11,276 gallon capacity


...well, neither is accurate as you two present them.
Early models had 11,276g fuel capacity; but more recent ones featured 11,489g. The increase in fuel capacity did not correlate to the available MTOW (220-255K) increase and was not a retroactive option.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 41):
No matter what these airplanes were called, in everyway that a 767ER is an ER aircraft, the same could be said of the 757s with the same equipment.

Poor comparison-- particularly as it should be relative to the physical/technical capabilites that separate the 767As from the 767ERs as opposed to installment options.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 27):
it would seem to me it would be feasible for them to order some more 764s to fly until they can get a small workable fleet going of 787s.

Airlines don't order new copies of old generation technology as a bridge until something new comes along. Airplanes have a 20 year economic life and the value of the older plane will decrease as the new planes come online with other carriers.

DL can pick up used airplanes but they won't order new 767s when they know they will become obsolete 5 years into their service life. Even thought some of DL's 767s may be flying until 2020, they won't add to the number of older aircraft by ordering new 767s now.

Also, remember that DL still has 2 more years worth of expansion available via 767 conversions. The 767 won't be able to fly to HKG or TPE but DL can add a number of flights to Asia (including the Middle East) using its 767s - and then expand deeper into Asia using the few 777LRs they pick up as well as any used 777s until the 787s are available.

I don't realistically believe DL will go with Airbus but no supplier can be so arrogant as to think they can control the market and their customers will follow. Airbus is salivating at the prospect of placing its aircraft w/ DL - and is willing to offer very attractive terms to have the option to eventually replace 100 767s.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 44):
and is willing to offer very attractive terms to have the option to eventually replace 100 767s.

A330-200's or A350's perhaps?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
lotsamiles
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:30 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 43):
Early models had 11,276g fuel capacity; but more recent ones featured 11,489g. The increase in fuel capacity did not correlate to the available MTOW (220-255K) increase and was not a retroactive option.

I stand corrected. I looked this up in the 757-200 AFM I have and sure enough some of the later MSN's had the 11,489g, or 213g more fuel.

Interestingly, the W&B manual only accounts for a difference of about 24g in the center tank, with mains 1 and 2 being the same. So, where is the other 189g?

Back to the ER issue, I don't think that 213g (about 12 minutes) is going to support an ER designation, even an unofficial designation. I still think this is often understood to be ETOPS capable 757's.

Thanks,
Lotsamiles
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 45):
A330-200's or A350's perhaps?

DL pretty much tries to stick with one make for their aircraft and have through the ages. Except for the Lockheed Tri-Stars they were strictly a Douglas aircraft shop, until the 1980s when Boeing made further inroads with the development of the 757 and 767, and MD just rehashing old frames, and starting a downward spiral as an aircraft company. DL did experiment with Airbus in the 1990s when they tried out some A310s they inherited from PanAm but very quickly parted company with them by 1996.
While I can't rule out a move to Airbus in the future, the way Boeing has helped Delta stay afloat these past few years, I really see them sticking with Boeing for some time, even in the used aircraft department. Delta wants to keep their fleet very common, and if anything beyond a small handful of additional P&W powered 752s they will attempt to get, the only other used Boeing a/c they might try and get will be 737NGs and perhaps one or two additional 772ERs should they pop-up. I don't see DL picking up any more 763ERs or 764ERs, even on the used front, but do see them expanding to more orders for the 772LR and possibly a 773ER should an ATL-PVG route warrant that large of an a/c if they can successfully be awarded the authority next year. For narrow bodies I don't see DL picking up any used Mad-Dogs. If any a/c in the DL fleet now has numbered days, it will be their MD-88/90s. A DL order for Airbus A318/19/20/21 is so unlikely I would refuse to take bets on it if I were a bookie for bets on a/c orders  laughing  ! The only way DL would have an A332 or A333 in their colors would be via a merger with NW, and even then I would predict such would be short lived.  laughing 
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WesternA318
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:38 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 47):
A DL order for Airbus A318/19/20/21 is so unlikely I would refuse to take bets on it if I were a bookie for bets on a/c orders

A new profession perhaps?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:54 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 48):
A new profession perhaps?

I still have 13 years before I'm retirement eligible for U.S. Federal service, but it's an idea perhaps we should mention to Johan, and make this site a little more $$$ for better and faster servers!  laughing 
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!

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