sevenair
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Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:38 am

What is going on here - is this man being offloaded for just taking photographs? If so then there are an awful lot of people on here and other sites (espcially youtube, and fl350) who could have been in serious trouble!

 
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shamrock350
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:40 am

I knew you were not take photos or film on FR but you get offloaded if you do! Does anyone know why FR dont allow pics on their aircraft?
 
DH106
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 1):
Does anyone know why FR dont allow pics on their aircraft?

I didn't know they had that policy - for whatever reason.
Never flown with them, and prob. never will.
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
 
sevenair
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:45 am

I would say they do - on some sites you can clearly see the cabin crew on film - for example there are FR safety demo videos taken within the cabin - and the crew must be able to see this. Also on myaviation.com you can see pictures of the cabin crew serving things from the trolley looking pretty much directly at the camera. At no point on my two FR flights was taking photographs mentioned as being prohibted.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting DH106 (Reply 2):
Never flown with them, and prob. never will.

I have a few times and there was never an announcement from what I can remember saying you couldn't but I do think it's in the terms and conditions and its a part of the small print when you book. Looks like they take it rather seriously though.
 
757lgw
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:50 am

Its the same as ALL flights the use of electronic devices such as videos cameras is ONLY permited AFTER take off AND once the seatbelt sign has been swtiched off , as the female cabin crew said to him she had already warned him and he failed to comply , so he has refused to comply with safty procedures and hes also refusing to get off the aircraft, if you were sat next to him and he was refusing to follow any crew member instructions , would you want to be stuck at 32,000ft with him?
 
N1120A
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 4):
Looks like they take it rather seriously though.

Probably because they don't want to get caught in employment law violations.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
EI787
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:51 am

If you read the bit about the video, it appears that the man was offloaded because he was deemed to be intoxicated. The fact that he was filming the incident was not the initial reason why he was asked to be offloaded.
 
philb
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:53 am

Brilliant - another bash Ryanair thread based on flimsy evidence. Does anyone EVER listen to the safety announcements about electronic equipment. Ryanair's announcements SPECIFICALLY state that no electronic equipment can be used from the time the doors are closed until the aircraft has taken off and an announcement is made.

A similar announcemnt is made 10 minutes prior to landing. There are TWO reasons. So none of the aircraft's systems are compromised and so no-one is injured should a piece of electronic equipment be thrown around the cabin in the event of an aborted take off, low level turbulence, a heavy landing and so that it doesn't obstruct the footways should it become detached from its owner.

Anyone disobeying the cabin crews instructions and arguing like the muppet on the clip is, under Irish Air Law, liable to be off loaded and reported for prosecution. Nothing to do with Ryanair, all to do with aviation law and SAFETY.
 
sevenair
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:54 am

Yeah he seems a bit tipsy, but there is a way to handle a situation, and I do not think this is the way to handle any situation.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting EI787 (Reply 7):
it appears that the man was offloaded because he was deemed to be intoxicated

Just read that bit myself, so that explains why he was offloaded but why try to grab his camera off him?
 
sevenair
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:56 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 8):
Ryanair's announcements SPECIFICALLY state that no electronic equipment can be used from the time the doors are closed until the aircraft has taken off and an announcement is made.

The door is not closed though, the boarding announcement is playing, and that other woman seems to be a dispatcher. Mobile phones are usable until the doors close and they don't get snatched from you if you choose to use them up to this point.
 
ThomasCook
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:01 am

Hi,

If the customer was intoxicated on board the aircraft, then surely he would have been in the same state upon boarding? The earnest would fall on ground staff to identify this and deny the passenger boarding in the first place?

Also, she say's "I've given you the option!" How can you give someone "the option" to be intoxicated? You either are or you aren't!?

Regardless of the situation, Ryanair's crew need a crash course in Customer Service and dealing with difficult situations and awkward passengers. I wouldn’t dare speak to a customer like that!

Regards
ThomasCook
A380 Crew
 
sevenair
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:06 am

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 12):
Regardless of the situation, Ryanair's crew need a crash course in Customer Service and dealing with difficult situations and awkward passengers. I wouldn�t dare speak to a customer like that!


Agreed - i worked in ikea for 4 years, and had to put up with all sorts - but never in my life would I speak to a customer like that!
 
philb
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 11):
The door is not closed though, the boarding announcement is playing, and that other woman seems to be a dispatcher. Mobile phones are usable until the doors close and they don't get snatched from you if you choose to use them up to this point.

How do you know the door isn't closed, you can't see it. Your "boarding announcement" consists of "finally Ladies and Gentleman, on behalf of your crew, thank you for flying Ryanair today" followed by a Renault Megane ad. The wording of the announcement followed by the ad is the wording used after push back. The other woman is certainly cabin crew. Ryanair cabin crew escort pax to/from terminals and wear high visibility vests. As a "situation" had arisen I'm sure the crew member had given that her attention rather than taking her vest off.

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 12):
If the customer was intoxicated on board the aircraft, then surely he would have been in the same state upon boarding? The earnest would fall on ground staff to identify this and deny the passenger boarding in the first place?

Not necessarily. He may have been in a reasonable condition at check in but, with up to 2 hours to drink prior to take off, he could well have become inebriated, not so much as not to walk out to the aircraft but to become seriously argumentative.

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 12):
Also, she say's "I've given you the option!" How can you give someone "the option" to be intoxicated? You either are or you aren't!?

Obviously she means she's given him the option to switch off the equipment.

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 12):
Regardless of the situation, Ryanair's crew need a crash course in Customer Service and dealing with difficult situations and awkward passengers. I wouldn’t dare speak to a customer like that!

You have absolutely no idea of how long the situation had been in being, what his body language was, how he was affecting surrounding passengers etc.. If I'd have been close by I'd have backed the crew's actions 100%

[Edited 2007-02-11 23:27:30]
 
Ryanair737
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:23 am

You’re not allowed to blatantly film/video record the crew on any airline, the prick who put this on YouTube deserves all he got, period.

737
LAST FLIGHTS= Ryanair LPL-BGY-LPL - EI-DPS/DWV - MAY 08 // NEXT FLIGHTS= TBC
 
Sketty222
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 12):
Also, she say's "I've given you the option!" How can you give someone "the option" to be intoxicated? You either are or you aren't!?

Regardless of the situation, Ryanair's crew need a crash course in Customer Service and dealing with difficult situations and awkward passengers. I wouldn’t dare speak to a customer like that!

Typical Ryanair

That is absolutely correct and I agree 100% with you.
Welcome to my Respected User list!

Lee
There's flying and then there's flying
 
ThomasCook
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:27 am

Hi,

Quoting Philb (Reply 14):
Not necessarily. He may have been in a reasonable condition at check in but, with up to 2 hours to drink prior to take off, he could well have become inebriated, not so much as not to walk out to the aircraft but to become seriously argumentative.

If he was deemed to be intoxicated onboard he would have been in a similar state upon boarding.

Quoting Philb (Reply 14):
Yuo have absolutely no idea of how long the situation had been in being, what his body language was, how he was affecting surrounding passengers etc.. If I'd have been close by I'd have backed the creew's actions 100%

Your right, I don't know how long the situation had been going on, however, there is no excuse for speaking to a fare paying passenger in such a manner. I deal with angry, confused and difficult customers on a regular basis and it is not my place to become blasé, cocky and arrogant like them cabin crew did. As the crew member mentioned, the Police are at her disposal, it is their job to use the force necessary and not for the crew to put themselves in what could become a dangerous situation. IF the customer was drunk he could well become violent.

Regards
ThomasCook

[Edited 2007-02-11 23:30:24]
A380 Crew
 
noelg
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:29 am

The woman in the hi-viz is a security woman - it says "SECURITY" on her jacket.

The guy was being offloaded for being intoxicated and refusing to give his drink to the stewardess:


"On a fine sunny day i was asked rudely to give my one and only can that day of Calsberg to the dolly woman, refusing stating id quickly drink it led to a sistuation beyond my control resulting in this video"

Shame the idiot can't spell - if he'd have just handed it over he wouldn't have been in that mess.

Here's another idiot getting thrown off a plane I came across before - if he'd have spoken to me like that he'd have got more than thrown off the plane...

 
philb
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 17):
If he was deemed to be intoxicated onboard he would have been in a similar state upon boarding.

How do you know? You have scant knowledge of how Ryanair board passengers. Basically the check in staff and a cabin crew member come to the gate and take the boarding passes, the pax then walk to the aircraft. There are degrees of intoxication and plenty of hardened drinkers are well capable of disguising their state until challenged about something, often trivial.

Just what experience of handling customers do you have? I spent many years in sales environments and dealing with customers first hand. My reading of the situation is that the clip was deliberately edited to show a well developed situation and to place the crew in a bad light. My educated guess is that they had tried the normal approaches but this passenger was going to have his own way come what may.

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 17):
As the crew member mentioned, the Police are at her disposal, it is their job to use the force necessary and not for the crew to put themselves in what could become a dangerous situation. IF the customer was drunk he could well become violent.

Aircrew are responsible for the safety of the aircraft at all times and are empowered to act to protect the aircraft and passengers including restraining passengers. The Police could only become involved once the aircraft was back on stand and the doors were open. Dangereous situations don't wait for the Police to arrive.
 
philb
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting Noelg (Reply 18):
The woman in the hi-viz is a security woman - it says "SECURITY" on her jacket.

Just watched it again and you are correct. This begs the question as to if she is security and not in a vest she has borrowed or is wearing for some odd reason, why the pre-take off tape is running as this is switched on at the front audio console once the doors are closed and the aircraft starts to move. It also includes the full safety demo announcement and finishes with the "thank you" followed by an ad - in this case, having heard it a few times, for the on board draw which could lead to a prize of a Renault Megane.

Again, under law, no announcement of the lottery can be made until the doors are closed. Very odd.
 
ThomasCook
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:58 am

Hi,

Quoting Philb (Reply 19):
How do you know? You have scant knowledge of how Ryanair board passengers. Basically the check in staff and a cabin crew member come to the gate and take the boarding passes, the pax then walk to the aircraft. There are degrees of intoxication and plenty of hardened drinkers are well capable of disguising their state until challenged about something, often trivial.

If the cabin crew boarding the flight was suspect to the customer being under the influence, they are within the rights to delay that particular passengers boarding whilst they asses the situation. I believe, if the crew already suspected this, they should have followed that procedure but god forbid that could compromise Ryanair’s 25 minute turnaround!

Quoting Philb (Reply 19):
Just what experience of handling customers do you have? I spent many years in sales environments and dealing with customers first hand. My reading of the situation is that the clip was deliberately edited to show a well developed situation and to place the crew in a bad light. My educated guess is that they had tried the normal approaches but this passenger was going to have his own way come what may.

I deal with customer face to face on a daily basis so I am well qualified to 'read' a situation.

Quoting Philb (Reply 19):
Aircrew are responsible for the safety of the aircraft at all times and are empowered to act to protect the aircraft and passengers including restraining passengers. The Police could only become involved once the aircraft was back on stand and the doors were open. Dangereous situations don't wait for the Police to arrive.

This situation wasn't dangerous but the crew where instigating it and could have quite easily have made it so. In this instance, the aircraft was clearly still on stand, given away by the fact the APU is the only engine running. Also, if the safety demo had been completed, wouldn’t the crew be in their blouses and not stood in the cabin wearing scarf’s and high viz jackets? Regardless of whether the crew are empowered to act, why make a difficult situation potentially dangerous by intimidating and infuriating the customer when, if need be, they could easily and quickly have Police onboard.

Regards
ThomasCook

[Edited 2007-02-12 00:01:00]
A380 Crew
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:09 am

I think the guy should have been offloaded but there was no need to try and snatch the camera from him. As for Ryanair's no photo/video policy, AFAIK it's not only on T/O and landing but also during cruise. Here's a link to a picture taken aboard a Ryanair flight.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0326029/M/

Read the comment.
It looks to me as if the FA at the front is getting the drinks trolley ready and the photographer says:
"Seconds after this shot the cabin crew advised me that it is not allowed to take photos inside a Ryanair aircraft..."

So it looks to me like the pic was taken during cruise. So Ryanair have a no photo policy. The fact that there are hardly any Ryanair cabin pics is also a possible indicator of this.

As for that asswipe in the second video, shame they couldn't flush him down the toilet at FL370.

Dominic
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
philb
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:15 am

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 21):
If the cabin crew boarding the flight was suspect to the customer being under the influence, they are within the rights to delay that particular passengers boarding whilst they asses the situation. I believe, if the crew already suspected this, they should have followed that procedure but god forbid that could compromise Ryanair’s 25 minute turnaround!

They obviously did not suspect his condition. As I said many people are well capable of disguising inebriation.

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 21):
I deal with customer face to face on a daily basis so I am well qualified to 'read' a situation.

I'm sure you do but I was writing training manuals on how to deal with difficult, abusive, drunk and aggressive customers at least 15 years before you were born and we have no idea from the clip how long the situation had been in being. From the remarks made it would be fair to assume they had reached a stage where the passenger was totally refusing to co-operate.

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 21):
This situation wasn't dangerous but the crew where instigating it and could have quite easily have made it so.

That's a totally crass statement. You've no evidence to back that up.

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 21):
In this instance, the aircraft was clearly still on stand, given away by the fact the APU is the only engine running. Also, if the safety demo had been completed, wouldn’t the crew be in their blouses and not stood in the cabin wearing scarf’s and high viz jackets? Regardless of whether the crew are empowered to act, why make a difficult situation potentially dangerous by intimidating and infuriating the customer when, if need be, they could easily and quickly have Police onboard.

It is not clear where the aircraft is. How many times have you sat in row 19 on a 737-800 and heard engines at idle?
Ryanair crew regularly give safety demos wearing their jackets and the point about the safety vest I covered in my last posts. As I said before, the tape is at a point at the end of the safety demo and this is not run until the doors are closed and the aircraft is pushed back.

In your determination to slag of FR you are turning a passenger's very real flouting of a legal requirement into a crew instigated argument and your stating that they are intimidating and infuriating the passenger shows an immature lack of judgement on your part. Your knowledge of air law and how and when Police become involved in these situations is also sadly lacking.
 
Lite
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:16 am

I feel watching this video, that the Ryanair cabin crew and the dispatcher of the flight, had every reason for him to be offloaded. It appeared that he was responding to the request of the security personnel in a sluggish and childish manner, so the crew were probably under the impression that he was unfit to fly. He was also going against Ryanair's policy of using photographic equipment onboard their aircraft (this is prohibited by company policy unless gaining prior permission) and I would not be too cheery if somebody was taking a photograph, let alone a video, of me without my prior consent.

If the passenger was allowed to board in an intoxicated state, this falls on the passenger service agent, not Ryanair's cabin crews. The PSA was probably from a handling agent (I think DUB & MJV are the only airports where FR have their own ground staff) and at the gate we are under immense pressure to board passengers in the short space of time allocated, that staff might miss some of the signs for somebody being unfit to travel. This is a good example of potentially young, under-trained PSAs not being able to face a confrontational situation or not noticing the signs.
LCC Lover Lite
 
Sketty222
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting Noelg (Reply 18):
Here's another idiot getting thrown off a plane I came across before - if he'd have spoken to me like that he'd have got more than thrown off the plane...

These people deserved to get booted off BA, in fact they decided to get booted off any airline. What complete pricks!!!
Im quite surprised one of the passengers didnt swing for him.

Lee
There's flying and then there's flying
 
philb
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting Lite (Reply 24):
He was also going against Ryanair's policy of using photographic equipment onboard their aircraft (this is prohibited by company policy unless gaining prior permission) and I would not be too cheery if somebody was taking a photograph, let alone a video, of me without my prior consent.

A number of points here. I've just read through Ryanair's terms and conditions. Nowhere does it state that the use of videos or cameras is prohibited but they are not included in the list of personal electronic items that can be used.

I've been on Ryanair flights where I've seen them used when the seatbelt sign is off, on one flight over the Alps the pilot pointed out a sunset photo opportunity.

As far as people taking photos and videos of others goes, it depends on the jurisdiction. In the UK and Eire there is no privacy law preventing photography or videography in a public place and the definition of a public place has long been the subject of argument within the legal and photographic communities.

On an aircraft it could, and has been, argued both ways. Deliberate filming of an individual without consent on an aircraft has been deemed to be an invasion of privacy under UK law, the capture of an individual's image, not as the subject but as background, has been deemed allowable.
 
Lostmoon744
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:53 pm

Egads! That guy on the second video was a terror. I'd hate to be near a person like that. And his friend's racial comments about whites shows what an ignorant lot they are.

If I were flying that ship, I would have placed them in AFT cargo so they'd bother themselves and not everyone else.
 
B777ER
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:12 pm

Quoting Noelg (Reply 18):
Here's another idiot getting thrown off a plane I came across before - if he'd have spoken to me like that he'd have got more than thrown off the plane...

After seeing who was holding the camera, well are you really surprised?
 
Analog
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:23 pm

Quoting Ryanair737 (Reply 15):
You're not allowed to blatantly film/video record the crew on any airline,

 Confused
That's quite a claim. Why not? Do they have some sort of special legal status that bans such activity throughout the world? Or is that part of the CoC on all airlines?

Also, are you saying (by implication) that it's okay to film the crew surreptitiously, but not blatantly? Isn't it better if it's obvious? That way the crew at least know they're being filmed.
 
Vega9000
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:30 pm

It seems logical to assume that, if there is a security person already involved, that the situation was developing for some time. Apparently the person was refusing to leave the aircraft until he could finish his drink, hence the words "You're delaying the aircraft". The fact that the boarding announcement is being made appears to indicate that. That doesn't play well with any airline, let alone FR ant the 25 minute turnaround.
Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:40 pm

The only thing I could pick up on which I think the security person / crew could have handled better was the lack of answers being given to the persons request for a reason for his being offloaded. Of course it may well be that they had already told him the reason repeatedly; It doesn't however look good on film when someone asks "why am I being removed" and the answer is basically "because I say so"

Its hard to draw a conclusion if you don't have the full facts to hand. We are probably only viewing 30 seconds or so of an incident which lasted in excess of 10 minutes.
 
christopherwoo
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 16):
Typical Ryanair

That is absolutely correct and I agree 100% with you.
Welcome to my Respected User list!

I don't like Ryanair that much but in this occasion i think they cabincrew were 100% right. I don't think it was the fact he was filming inside the plane but the fact he was videoing the crew. The crew have the right not to be videod, its part of their privacy, how would you like it if you had someone filming you while you work? As she said, she warned him, gave him the option to stop, he was being an arragont **** and i would have done exactly the same as the crew in the same situation.
 
Thomson735
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:19 am

Lmao he says hes going to sue and use the video as camera evidence? what against himself haha

What an idiot only way he should travel ona plane is in a cage where he belongs!
 
cumulus
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Noelg (Reply 18):
another idiot getting thrown off a plane I came across before - if he'd have spoken to me like that he'd have got more than thrown off the plane...

I honestly say I can only understand about one word in ten this clown is saying.
What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
 
Lite
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:24 am

There are a couple of points, from seeing the second video, that I'd like to bring up as to why he was offloaded;

1) You are not allowed to drink your own alcohol onboard, and he states this was his can of Carling. As the aircraft is on the ground, my guess is this was alcohol he had purchased in the airport.
2) He is being unco-operative with the crew. They would not have brough security onboard the aircraft if he had not been difficult with the cabin crew in the first place.

Ryanair are completely in the right here, this is a case of a passenger who was unfit to fly being offloaded. I do agree that the Scottish security lady could have given a bit more Gaelic charm, but when you have a departure slot to keep and somebody is being difficult, I can hardly blame her for being a bit harsh.
LCC Lover Lite
 
fell90
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:29 am

If any pax at EMA are taking photos of the aircraft as they walk out of the plane, we have to ask them to stop. We are allowed to confiscate the camera or phone and/or delete the image if we feel they look "suspicious" too! so that maybe why FR dont like people taking pictures of their aircraft.
 
A340600
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:18 am

I got asked not to take photos out of the window of a 737-200 with Ryanair in 2004, lucky it was a night flight and they allowed it on the way,

Sam
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
philb
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RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting Fell90 (Reply 36):
If any pax at EMA are taking photos of the aircraft as they walk out of the plane, we have to ask them to stop. We are allowed to confiscate the camera or phone and/or delete the image if we feel they look "suspicious" too! so that maybe why FR dont like people taking pictures of their aircraft.

Could you please let us all know why this policy is in place and, in passing, tell us all what job you do at EMA as a 16-20 year old student that has the authority to confiscate and alter people's property.as well as have the discretion to decide on who looks suspicious?

Even though EMA is ultimately the property of Manchester Airport plc, English Common Law applies and any employee,the local airport management and, ultimately, Manchester Airport plc could be subjected to both criminal and civil action UNLESS there are very visible no photography signs on the doors leading to the ramp (which I don't recall). Even then, only the Police have powers of confiscation and their deletion/retention of photos could only be by order of the courts.

The law on the ramp is quite different to the Law of the Air which can be deemed to be applied once on board the aircraft.

What you state looks like another petty baseless "rule" invented by some lower level supervisor in ignorance in the current climate of paranoia.

Considering there are many published ramp photos of EMA backing articles in trade and newsstand magazines, many of which have been sponsored by the management, such a "rule" makes no sense at all.
 
Lite
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:53 am

RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
Could you please let us all know why this policy is in place and, in passing, tell us all what job you do at EMA as a 16-20 year old student that has the authority to confiscate and alter people's property.as well as have the discretion to decide on who looks suspicious?

Firstly, I am in the middle of that age bracket, work at EMA, and am not sure exactly of the job of Fell90, but I am a passenger service agent. Please do not imply that because of age, that perhaps we are unable to do the job professionally, or we are somehow inferior in being able to enforce rules and regulations. What right do you have as an aviation enthusiast over an airport worker to deem what is suspicious or inappropriate?

Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
visible no photography signs

There are no photography signs throughout the airport, at least on all doors entering the terminal building. The airport does not allow any photography on it's own private property, unless the person wishing to take photographs has earlier sought the permission of the airport authority, which they are able to do so via the information desk. For family snapshots, discretion is allowed, though we inform passengers that they are not allowed to take photographs without permission.

Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
What you state looks like another petty baseless "rule" invented by some lower level supervisor in ignorance in the current climate of paranoia.

It doesn't matter who has created it, it is a rule, and the employees are the ones to feel the brunt of it. I would love to go back to a time when the aviation industry wasn't subject to some of the crazy security rules (including ones which clearly do not work) we have today, but we don't live in that world anymore. Our job is solely to enforce the rules our employers ask us to do. I'm not sure if the problem is the actual taking of pictures, or the fact people are more concerned about taking their photos in a hazardous area, than being aware of all that is going around them on the ramp.
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1stfl94
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:33 am

RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:54 am

The crew might have been in the right but they were being pretty rude about it. That said I've yet to actually been treated with something approaching politeness on Ryanair.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Ryanair Diplomacy At It's Finest

Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting Lite (Reply 39):
Firstly, I am in the middle of that age bracket, work at EMA, and am not sure exactly of the job of Fell90, but I am a passenger service agent. Please do not imply that because of age, that perhaps we are unable to do the job professionally, or we are somehow inferior in being able to enforce rules and regulations. What right do you have as an aviation enthusiast over an airport worker to deem what is suspicious or inappropriate?

What is it about people of your age group that doesn't understand English and reads far more into a question than is there? I asked what the person does and how that gives him authority. In the context of the post the question about his authority has NOTHING to do with professionalism but EVERYTHING to do with the authority invested in the position he holds.

I have every right to question his statement, as I would under law, to question his authority. As it happens I am not just an "aviation enthusiast", though I have been for almost 51 years. I have acted as a security consultant and devised and run aviation security conferences for various airports, airlines and governments addressed and attended by senior policy makers and airport security experts from around the world, so perhaps I know just a little bit more about the subject than either of you, especially about the law.

Quoting Lite (Reply 39):
There are no photography signs throughout the airport, at least on all doors entering the terminal building. The airport does not allow any photography on it's own private property, unless the person wishing to take photographs has earlier sought the permission of the airport authority, which they are able to do so via the information desk. For family snapshots, discretion is allowed, though we inform passengers that they are not allowed to take photographs without permission.

I suggest your interpretation is full of holes. Are there signs throughout the airport or just on the doors when entering the terminal (and presumably in the Customs Hall)? As photography is permitted by requesting permission at the information desk, who grants or denies that authority, or is it at the whim of the person on the desk as anyone challenging the authority to deny permission could quote the allowance of "family photographs" as being out of step with policy, if not downright bizzare?

Quoting Lite (Reply 39):
It doesn't matter who has created it, it is a rule, and the employees are the ones to feel the brunt of it. I would love to go back to a time when the aviation industry wasn't subject to some of the crazy security rules (including ones which clearly do not work) we have today, but we don't live in that world anymore. Our job is solely to enforce the rules our employers ask us to do. I'm not sure if the problem is the actual taking of pictures, or the fact people are more concerned about taking their photos in a hazardous area, than being aware of all that is going around them on the ramp.

It matters a great deal who has created the rule, how it is framed and "enforced". Confiscating and destroying property is illegal unless done as I stated in my last post and no employee should be placed in that position.

I agree with you re some of the crazy rules. For instance, last August overturned everything that had been done to enhance baggage security after Lockerbie. The point about safety on the ramp is a fair one, but does not require draconian measures.

You might be surprised by some of the ideas that have been put forward by some airport managements to enhance security and which, in various countries inc the UK, have had to be quietly turned down because they would require an Act of Parliament to be legal and would never get a majority.

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