NYC777
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Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:08 am

Boeing added 5 x 787 for UFO airlines.

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm
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DAYflyer
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:09 am

I wonder if these are exercised options or a new, unidentified customer?

Also, any news on the other UFO orders from last week?
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EI321
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:29 am

How come Boeing seems to get way more UFOs than airbus?
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
How come Boeing seems to get way more UFOs than airbus?

Because Aliens like Boeing better than Airbus?

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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
How come Boeing seems to get way more UFOs than airbus?

Could be down to how each company announces orders. Boeing traditionally does not formally announce an order until the customer does (or the customer informs Boeing they may do so). As such, Boeing lists the plane as "unidentified customer".

Airbus traditionally announces the order when it's signed, whether or not the customer has announced, so they don't need to use the UFO designator.
 
redflyer
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Airbus traditionally announces the order when it's signed, whether or not the customer has announced, so they don't need to use the UFO designator.

Boeing doesn't announce an order, UFO or otherwise, until it is signed either.

I think the difference between the two companies could simply be the terms of their contract. Airbus may simply stipulate in their contracts that they have the right to announce the order upon signing. Boeing, on the other hand, may simply defer to the customer regarding the announcement. In other words, if you want to do business with Airbus, you're going to have to accept the fact that they will announce your purchase once the contract is signed.
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Boeing added 5 x 787 for UFO airlines.

Kuwait?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Lumberton
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
How come Boeing seems to get way more UFOs than airbus?

British Airways doesn't want this to become public yet.  Wink
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
Boeing doesn't announce an order, UFO or otherwise, until it is signed either.

That goes without saying, I would think, so I didn't feel the need to note it.  Smile
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
How come Boeing seems to get way more UFOs than airbus?

British Airways doesn't want this to become public yet.

.......Because they are the type of airline that will only order 5  Smile !
 
manni
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
In other words, if you want to do business with Airbus, you're going to have to accept the fact that they will announce your purchase once the contract is signed.

Sure, if you dont accept that they'll gladly send you to the competition There are several examples in the past of unidentified orders that have been listed by Airbus. Your theory has absolutely no ground. Until today there are still about 50 Airbus aircraft that have been ordered in 2006 that have not been identified. And I'm not reffering to private jets...

Back on topic, about the 5 unidentified 787s. Could it be Azerbeidjan airways? How many 787s did Azerbeidjan airways said they wanted? 3?

[Edited 2007-02-15 18:20:49]
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EI321
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
Boeing, on the other hand, may simply defer to the customer regarding the announcement. In other words, if you want to do business with Airbus, you're going to have to accept the fact that they will announce your purchase once the contract is signed.

Your really jumping the gun there, thats all based on guess work!
 
redflyer
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
Sure, if you dont accept that they'll gladly send you to the competition

Manni, there's really no reason to spew sarcasm; especially since everyone knows your proclivity for all things Airbus. So take the edge off of your knee-jerk defensive reaction just because I mentioned Airbus' name.

What I said does not reflect poorly on Airbus; it is simply their way of doing business. That is not to say they're not willing to negotiate it away once they come to the table. It's simply part of their corporate policy to want to make an announcement -- including the airline's name -- as soon as the ink is set on paper. But I'm sure they will relinquish it if a customer insists.

By way of example, my company does certain things differently than the competition when it comes to contract terms; however, I would never NOT negotiate certain terms if the customer insisted. Especially if I thought it would put us at a competitive disadvantage and risk the entire engagement.
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
Back on topic, about the 5 unidentified 787s. Could it be Azerbeidjan airways? How many 787s did Azerbeidjan airways said they wanted? 3?

Three 787s and three 737s.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070206d_nr.html
 
osiris30
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
I think the difference between the two companies could simply be the terms of their contract. Airbus may simply stipulate in their contracts that they have the right to announce the order upon signing. Boeing, on the other hand, may simply defer to the customer regarding the announcement. In other words, if you want to do business with Airbus, you're going to have to accept the fact that they will announce your purchase once the contract is signed.

The difference is largely due to the fact Boeing updates more quickly. That's all. If Boeing updates every week, there is less time for a formal press announcement. If it takes Airbus 3 weeks, there is more time for the customer to ready a press release.

For multi-billion dollar orders both companies will happily call it a UFO. They don't care. All we are seeing here is a byproduct of how quickly Boeing publishes their orders. Nothing more, nothing less.
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EI321
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
The difference is largely due to the fact Boeing updates more quickly. That's all. If Boeing updates every week, there is less time for a formal press announcement. If it takes Airbus 3 weeks, there is more time for the customer to ready a press release.

For multi-billion dollar orders both companies will happily call it a UFO. They don't care. All we are seeing here is a byproduct of how quickly Boeing publishes their orders. Nothing more, nothing less.

Probably the best explanation so far.
 
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:02 am

Boeing doesn't have alot of choice about anoucing orders once they are signed contracts. They have to obey the laws that apply to them, and among them is that they have to annouce sales as they happen as they affect the stock price.

So if Airline A doesn't want thier order annouced for some reason, they can have boeing book them as "UFO" so that Boeing is still within the law, and Airline A has atleast a small possiblity to keep thier role in the order of those frames quiet until they want to annouce it.

There are many reasons to have your order booked UFO, and interestingly one I have seen more than once is that they are not done ordering planes. They firm up some, but need to dig up more money or spit-shine the contracts on the other frames.


Airbus on the otherhand, right or wrong does NOT have to annouce orders as they are signed. So airbus can sit on an order for a longer period of time before having to put it in thier public books. Personaly I think they would be better off with a requirement to post orders as they come in as it seems to lead to better control of the PR aspects... Doesn't remove all the risk for mistakes, but it makes atleast the aspect of when it goes on the public books an easyone. Better reporting of cancelations would also be nice, as it would help aviation nuts keep track of whats real and whats marketing fluff. Of course its alot easier to fluff the cancel numbers even with a fairly strict accounting laws, so this is more or less wishful thinking on my part than any real need.
 
mah584jr
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
For multi-billion dollar orders both companies will happily call it a UFO. They don't care. All we are seeing here is a byproduct of how quickly Boeing publishes their orders. Nothing more, nothing less.

They simply have different ways of accounting for their aircraft. Boeing recognizes the transaction as a UFO and debits its UFO first, then credits it later to the purchasing airline. Airbus will wait until the airline announces(I'm not really certain of their accounting practices).

Whether Boeing or Airbus put something in the UFO account or not has nothing to do with a contract. It has to do with their own company's accounting principles.
 
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Could be down to how each company announces orders. Boeing traditionally does not formally announce an order until the customer does (or the customer informs Boeing they may do so). As such, Boeing lists the plane as "unidentified customer".

Makes the best sense... I've heard that also.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
British Airways doesn't want this to become public yet. Wink

Please... Did Willie make up his mind and if so i would hope BA would place a larger order than that?

Why has not the UPS order been added?
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EI321
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 23):
Why has not the UPS order been added?

Maybe they just have not signed it yet.
 
osiris30
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 23):
Why has not the UPS order been added?

Given the accounting rules Boeing has to follow it must not be finalized yet. Probably just paperwork I would guess.

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 21):
They simply have different ways of accounting for their aircraft. Boeing recognizes the transaction as a UFO and debits its UFO first, then credits it later to the purchasing airline. Airbus will wait until the airline announces(I'm not really certain of their accounting practices).

Like I said Boeing announces faster. It's just a by product of the accounting rules each has to follow, with the American rules being more 'aggressive'. But Boeing can't NOT show an order that is firm legally. Airbus has more leeway with their announcing rules.

At the end of the day, because of this, Boeing ends up booking more as UFOs simply because the customer's haven't had a chance to get their PR in order (or on rare occasion may wish to remain secret for as long as possible). If the customer says dont' show our name you get a UFO. It's not like the status of the order is uncertain and Boeing obviously knows who signed the contract. They are just honoring their customers' desires to be unnamed until some later date.
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redflyer
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
The difference is largely due to the fact Boeing updates more quickly. That's all. If Boeing updates every week, there is less time for a formal press announcement. If it takes Airbus 3 weeks, there is more time for the customer to ready a press release.

For multi-billion dollar orders both companies will happily call it a UFO. They don't care. All we are seeing here is a byproduct of how quickly Boeing publishes their orders. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think the issue is a little more complex than putting together a simple press release. Boeing traditionally has had more UFO's and they've even made it a point to say the choice of when an announcement is made is entirely up to the customer. If you recall, in 2000, which was the first year Airbus overtook them in orders (I think it was in 2000), they pulled 189 UFO's out of their hat at the end of December causing Airbus to howl that they (Boeing) were playing tricks. At the time, Boeing would not even announce an order, UFO or otherwise, unless the customer was ready to come forth. After that year Boeing went on record as saying UFO orders will be announced, only that they will remain UFOs.

So while Airbus has UFO's, traditionally I believe Boeing has had far more and it goes beyond the issue of how often they report their numbers. At the end of 2006, Airbus had approximately 50 UFOs on the books. As of the end of January, Boeing had 156 UFO's. Less the January UFO orders, at the end of 2006 Boeing still had almost 3X as many UFOs as Airbus.
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iahflyer
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:18 am

Is it just me or just one narrowbody order just creepy?
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting IAHFLYER (Reply 22):
Is it just me or just one narrowbody order just creepy?

Creepy? It isn't uncommon at all for an airline to exercise a single purchase option, especially with narrowbody types.
 
TradewindL1011
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 18):
Why has not the UPS order been added?

It actually has been "added". Boeing announced it today but after they released this week's order numbers. The UPS order will thus not be counted until next week's orders.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070215c_nr.html

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manni
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Manni, there's really no reason to spew sarcasm; especially since everyone knows your proclivity for all things Airbus. So take the edge off of your knee-jerk defensive reaction just because I mentioned Airbus' name.

You come up with a theory that can be disproved faster then I can say 'Airbus' and I shouldn't be allowed to have a laugh with it? Who are you kidding!

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
It's simply part of their corporate policy to want to make an announcement -- including the airline's name -- as soon as the ink is set on paper.

And there's absolutely no way you are going to be able to prove that. Again, more then once new orders came out of the blue when Airbus' updated their ordersheet. Without a separate announcement on their website.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
The difference is largely due to the fact Boeing updates more quickly. That's all. If Boeing updates every week, there is less time for a formal press announcement. If it takes Airbus 3 weeks, there is more time for the customer to ready a press release.

Sounds plausible. Airbus doesn't ussually update their ordersheet until the second week of the month, for orders booked in the previous month. Some of these orders could have been 5 to 6 weeks old.
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osiris30
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 25):
Sounds plausible. Airbus doesn't ussually update their ordersheet until the second week of the month, for orders booked in the previous month. Some of these orders could have been 5 to 6 weeks old.

That's the reason for the vast majority of it. Some of it also has to do with the nature of orders each has been signing lately. The 787 is a game changer so some airlines may want to fly under the radar with the new type (The same way I'm sure there are lots of 350 discussions going on in a very hush-hush fashion). Lots of reasons I suppose by I maintain the majority are just how both companies report.
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redflyer
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 25):
You come up with a theory that can be disproved faster then I can say 'Airbus'

Ok, so I'm waiting for it to be disproved. And not just by another counter-theory.

Quoting Manni (Reply 25):
It's simply part of their corporate policy to want to make an announcement -- including the airline's name -- as soon as the ink is set on paper.

And there's absolutely no way you are going to be able to prove that.

Well, as I stated in my post, Airbus currently has around 50 UFOs. Boeing has approximately 150 UFOs. Airbus has booked more orders than Boeing in the past 5 out of 6 years. So what counter-theory do you have that would account for the discrepancy?

I can't imagine it's the faster reporting cycle that Boeing has. That might make up for some of it -- a small number -- but to say that it would account for the 100 more UFOs that Boeing has??? Is this your version of the "new math"?
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boeingfever777
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:06 pm

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 18):
Why has not the UPS order been added?



Quoting EI321 (Reply 19):
Maybe they just have not signed it yet.



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 20):
Given the accounting rules Boeing has to follow it must not be finalized yet. Probably just paperwork I would guess.



Quoting TradewindL1011 (Reply 24):

It actually has been "added". Boeing announced it today but after they released this week's order numbers. The UPS order will thus not be counted until next week's orders.

Excellent News! Guess the big 5X announcement about the A380 is coming soon?
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AMSSFO
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
Until today there are still about 50 Airbus aircraft that have been ordered in 2006 that have not been identified. And I'm not reffering to private jets...



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 21):
So while Airbus has UFO's, traditionally I believe Boeing has had far more and it goes beyond the issue of how often they report their numbers. At the end of 2006, Airbus had approximately 50 UFOs on the books. As of the end of January, Boeing had 156 UFO's. Less the January UFO orders, at the end of 2006 Boeing still had almost 3X as many UFOs as Airbus.

The UFO orders of Airbus were for only 7 customers, of which two (Air One, CIT) already have been identified. Four orders have been on the books for more than two months (14 A32X booked in Jan 2006; 1 of A320, A321, A340-600 each all booked in 2005).
On the other hand, Boeing not only has a lot more UFO's in numbers of units but also in number of customers: at least 33 at the end of 2006, currently 39. Generally, these remain unidentified for a much longer time than Airbus UFOs: 30 orders have been listed as UFO for more than two months against only 4 for Airbus.
 
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glideslope
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:19 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 25):
And there's absolutely no way you are going to be able to prove that. Again, more then once new orders came out of the blue when Airbus' updated their ordersheet. Without a separate announcement on their website.

...and that statement in no way disproves it. You give yourself too much credit Manni. Try, IMO once in a while. This entire subject continues to point out the largest difference between A&B other than Engineering Skill  

Boeing is much more customer oriented. They listen, and accommodate the desires of the operator, be it political or not. Airbus simply wants the sale, and then see ya!!

[Edited 2007-02-16 13:21:26]
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manni
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 27):

Ok, so I'm waiting for it to be disproved.

You wrote...

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
f you want to do business with Airbus, you're going to have to accept the fact that they will announce your purchase once the contract is signed.

That theory is factual incorrect. Yesterday an undisclosed order, announced at 'Airbus' 2006 results' press conference and booked in december, was identified as being an order for CIT.

Unlike, what you call a fact in the above quote, Airbus did not identify CIT as the buyer for the aircraft they booked the moment they signed in december.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 27):
I can't imagine it's the faster reporting cycle that Boeing has. That might make up for some of it -- a small number -- but to say that it would account for the 100 more UFOs that Boeing has???

There could be various reasons. That Airbus customers have to accept the FACT that their order will be announced and that the customer will be identified straight away is not one of them, because it is simply not true (see example above).
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gbfra
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
The difference is largely due to the fact Boeing updates more quickly. That's all. If Boeing updates every week, there is less time for a formal press announcement. If it takes Airbus 3 weeks, there is more time for the customer to ready a press release.



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 20):
At the end of the day, because of this, Boeing ends up booking more as UFOs simply because the customer's haven't had a chance to get their PR in order

*ROFL*

This really funny. What do you think PR people are trained for?

Have you ever seen such a press release? It's really not a big deal and in most cases the PR department is informed about the contract well in advance. A couple of hours is sufficient. This is true for Boeing as well as for their customers.

During air shows like Le Bourget the Boeing people are used to publish several of these releases in quite a short time although only a small part of their PR department is present there.

I'll show your post to some of the Boeing people I know. I'm sure they will be delighted.
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redflyer
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 31):
That Airbus customers have to accept the FACT that their order will be announced and that the customer will be identified straight away is not one of them, because it is simply not true (see example above).

You keep repeating a point that I've already said is NOT hard-wired. Airbus may WANT to announce the cusotmer's identity and will negotiate for the opportunity to do so, but they will NOT doggedly persevere at the risk of losing the deal. On the other hand, Boeing does NOT care one bit. Period. End of story.
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osiris30
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:35 am

@gbfra:

I used to be responsible for signing off on press releases. I know exactly what goes into them, and things like aircraft orders (unless they are top up orders) require more than just a press release.

Ofcourse I don't expect you would understand anything about corporate marketing or product and brand awareness.

And I wasn't talking about Boeing's pr department. Show the post to anyone you want. If they don't agree that new type intros have much bigger marketing loads than just a press release they don't know much. The point is the pr won't go out until all the marketting is ready. At least for a company with half a clue. The pr not being ready doesn't mean the pr itself takes the time (sigh).

I elaborated on my point further but apparently some Airbus fans took issue with it and got it removed.
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Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 16):
Boeing doesn't have alot of choice about anoucing orders once they are signed contracts. They have to obey the laws that apply to them, and among them is that they have to annouce sales as they happen as they affect the stock price.

No personal offense, but this is nonsense. There is no U.S. law that stipulates that Boeing has to announce an order the day it is signed. If there was, Boeing would be legally required to post a press release on the day of the signing, whether identified or not. However, that does not happen. Instead, Boeing issues a weekly update that briefly outlines the former week's activity. Even that is not completely accurate, as it is not until the next month that Boeing publically identifies what specific day a particular contract has been signed.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 20):
But Boeing can't NOT show an order that is firm legally.

Yes, they can. Unless things have changed since the last time I checked, a website is not a legally binding document. Legally, Boeing must report their income, their earnings, their margins, etc. etc. However, they DO NOT need to pubically acknowledge every individual order. In fact, for those who have been in the industry a while, you will remember a time when Boeing DID NOT announce unidentified orders. They would not announce an order until such time as the purchaser chose to announce it, sometimes a year or two after the contract was signed. During the late-'90's, however, due to pressure both from Wall Street and Boeing's own marketing department, Boeing official policy was changed and they began showing individual orders as they came in, whether identified or not.

The point is, it is another A.net myth that Boeing must legally announce an order as it comes in. This is simply not true. They must report the earnings from such orders, but not the order itself. May not make much sense, but that's the way it is.


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TeamAmerica
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 35):
There is no U.S. law that stipulates that Boeing has to announce an order the day it is signed.

Agreed. Most of the misunderstanding about this stems from the confusion over Sarbanes-Oxley. As I understand it, an enterprise is only obligated to report events that represent a significant variance from expected performance. Boeing provides guidance on expected sales, and hence any given order that falls within the realm of that routine business does not need to be reported. An unexpected sales drought or boom in sales would be reportable, and the confusion lies in defining how good or how poor the performance must be in order to require a report. Many companies are opting to report everything in order to avoid all doubt.
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Glom
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:42 am

They aren't getting many. What's happened?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 37):
They aren't getting many. What's happened?

Must be saving them up for Paris...  cheeky 
 
gbfra
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RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 34):
@gbfra:

I used to be responsible for signing off on press releases. I know exactly what goes into them, and things like aircraft orders (unless they are top up orders) require more than just a press release.

Ofcourse I don't expect you would understand anything about corporate marketing or product and brand awareness.

And I wasn't talking about Boeing's pr department. Show the post to anyone you want. If they don't agree that new type intros have much bigger marketing loads than just a press release they don't know much. The point is the pr won't go out until all the marketting is ready. At least for a company with half a clue. The pr not being ready doesn't mean the pr itself takes the time (sigh).

I elaborated on my point further but apparently some Airbus fans took issue with it and got it removed

I'm used to this strategy of yours. Every time somebody demonstrates that you are talking plain nonsense your response is: "Ah you're an Airbus fan." Kinda silly, don't you think so?

If an airline buys either A or B they usually don't have to do any marketing at once because these planes will be delivered years later. LH announced their order for the B748 without doing any immediate marketing. Why should they? It's a simple fact that airlines (like any other big companies) are used to distribute press releases in a short time, and it's really not a big deal for them. Ask any press officer of a major airline and they will just laugh at you.

You are right that I'm not a marketing expert, but, being a journalist, I have been dealing with PR departments of numerous companies for twenty-odd years and you don't have to tell me how press releases are prepared. There is no secret about it.
The fundamental things apply as time goes by
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:01 am

I

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 35):
No personal offense, but this is nonsense. There is no U.S. law that stipulates that Boeing has to announce an order the day it is signed. If there was, Boeing would be legally required to post a press release on the day of the signing, whether identified or not.

It is my understanding that they have they have a reasonable time period to do it. Given the way even minor orders affect the future of the company, I don't think they can skate around announcing them. However if they even did it monthly I don't see that it would be an issue. What I think would be an issue is if they sat on some orders for 6months w/o any announcement while announcing others. WAY too much room to manipulate the stock. I think the key is a consistant method that is applied to all the orders big and small. Boeing placing UFO orders and weekly updates is a solid way to do it.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13812
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:17 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
How come Boeing seems to get way more UFOs than airbus?



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 16):
They have to obey the laws that apply to them, and among them is that they have to annouce sales as they happen as they affect the stock price.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 21):
After that year Boeing went on record as saying UFO orders will be announced, only that they will remain UFOs.

And thus, because they developed a standard practice of updating weekly, and posting UFOs, and went on record with this policy, they are now obligated to continue this reporting policy until they announce otherwise.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 34):
I elaborated on my point further but apparently some Airbus fans took issue with it and got it removed.

There are Airbus moderators that seem to do this even without the help of complaints...

Quoting Glom (Reply 37):
They aren't getting many. What's happened?

I predicted this late last year. When Airbus announced they would "lose" the lead in 2006, I theorized that Airbus would look to defer signing of some of the contracts until early 2007, to help a "resurgent" Airbus gain the lead and maybe win 2007. Compare December 2005 to December 2006, and you'll see what I mean. The reason i thought this would happen was that Airbus's firm+pending total was below Boeing's firm only total, and thus they would have had to book hundreds of new orders in December to pass Boeing in 2006. In PR terms, announcing orders in late December is not the best, as you are lost in the shuffle, so airlines looking to "follow on" with orders would be willing to wait until January to book. And the ones who couldn't wait to book for business reasons waited until January (and now February) to announce those late 2006 orders.

Just a theory I had, but so far, looks to be holding up to the reality test.

But honestly, the major carriers are still in the wings this year, and these top ups and follow ons for both manufacturers aren't going to mean much if BA and UA and others announce large orders...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 41):
I predicted this late last year. When Airbus announced they would "lose" the lead in 2006, I theorized that Airbus would look to defer signing of some of the contracts until early 2007, to help a "resurgent" Airbus gain the lead and maybe win 2007. Compare December 2005 to December 2006, and you'll see what I mean. The reason i thought this would happen was that Airbus's firm+pending total was below Boeing's firm only total, and thus they would have had to book hundreds of new orders in December to pass Boeing in 2006. In PR terms, announcing orders in late December is not the best, as you are lost in the shuffle, so airlines looking to "follow on" with orders would be willing to wait until January to book. And the ones who couldn't wait to book for business reasons waited until January (and now February) to announce those late 2006 orders.

While I agree that is what happened, I don't have an issue with this as airbus pays for this with the risk that they WON'T get a signature the month or two later they want. I do however have a big issue with moving orders forward or otherwise pre-dating deals. Thus I have a big problem with airbus's policy of waiting till December 47th or later to announce the years figures. Clearly you can add up numbers in a real hurry if you want. There is no reason why you can't on Dec 2 drag in the minimum number of people, burn 30min in excel putting in the numbers from the week before. Its raw frames, not posting detailed financial information. Then just a little bit of time to polish your pre-worked PR, get the management clearance on the PR, and then release it. Certainly not a whole weeks work if you are on the ball before the holidays.

Airbus can only gain by clear, quick and concise communication with the investors in thier parent company EDAS.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 42):
airbus pays for this with the risk that they WON'T get a signature the month or two later they want.

And that's why Airbus will not do what was suggested in the post you replied to. Telling airlines to delay the signing of an order so they can have one up in the next 'order race'. Just imagine...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 41):
When Airbus announced they would "lose" the lead in 2006, I theorized that Airbus would look to defer signing of some of the contracts until early 2007

That would be an incredible stupid thing to do. IMO Airbus is not going to risk a single order in order to improve their changes of 'winning' the order race.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 42):
Thus I have a big problem with airbus's policy of waiting till December 47th or later to announce the years figures.

That's Airbus' way of releasing their yearly figures, a well organized press conference in Paris. They can't please everyone, and if you weren't complaining others might...

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 33):
Airbus may WANT to announce the cusotmer's identity and will negotiate for the opportunity to do so, but they will NOT doggedly persevere at the risk of losing the deal. On the other hand, Boeing does NOT care one bit. Period. End of story.

That is already a lot softer then calling it a FACT but it is pure speculation, every bit of it. Period!
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fun2fly
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

RE: Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007

Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:17 am

What about the 95 UFO's still unidentified from 2006? Any ideas on whose those are?

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