ferrypilot
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Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:50 am

Does anyone know if the Bonanza that broke up in flight and fell on Fort Stewart a few days ago was a straight or a
V-tail? ...The V-tails have a history of in flight failure.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:21 am

Flight:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N506BC

FAA Registry listing:
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=506bc

And here's a photo of an A36:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Terry Shepherd



...Straight tail, it is.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:33 am

Sounds like he probably lost control (maybe iced up) in IMC.
 
2H4
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:17 am



Wasn't there a wing spar issue with T-34s awhile back? Could the Bonanza's spar be susceptible to the same problems?


2H4


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ferrypilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:09 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 3):

Wasn't there a wing spar issue with T-34s awhile back? Could the Bonanza's spar be susceptible to the same problems?

I think that spar issue with T-34's is probably ongoing. And apparently that aircraft is derived from the early V35 Bonanza. Whether or not the main spar in an A36 is common to those earlier designed aircraft I have no idea.
...Actually I've got a few hours on various Beech aircraft and "I have always liked them a lot"
 
KELPkid
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:20 am

I've flown a few retract types, but not a Bonanza.

The thing that can get you into trouble in many of them is the lack of drag-point the nose down with the gear up and in a clean configuration and they tend to build up speed quickly.

Does the Bonanza fit this description?
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
2H4
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:57 am




Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
Does the Bonanza fit this description?

I've flown the Debonair (cheap, straight-tail Bonanza) and don't remember it being overly slippery....


2H4


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ballpeeen
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:08 pm

The Bonanzas do have the same spar problem that the T-34s do: Overzealous pilots.

Seriously, other than some corrosion on the spar cap from poor water drainage, they are built like brick craphouses. The only cracks I've found were from people doing aerobatics (and doing them poorly).
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:23 pm

My experience in aviation has been that pilot ability varies enormously, ...quite literally like all the colours in the rainbow. Hotshot born to fly test pilots are at one end of the spectrum and the guys who are accidents waiting to happen are at the other end and there is every kind of variation in between. ...Quite often some of those with the least ability have the most confidence to go flying. So unfortunately there is and always have been plenty of guys around who are going to be in trouble real quick if their autopilots fail on them in IMC. Throw in turbulence and icing ...they will pretty soon be breaking up pulling g in the death spiral and it makes little difference then if their aircraft is a Beech, Cessna or Piper.
I have flown with more than a dozen pilots over the years who have died flying in a dozen different accidents. ...So many and now I am embarrassed to admit that I only just remembered when I read the last post that one of them fell to earth doing aerobatics in a Bonanza.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:12 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
Flight:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N506BC

Why does the Flightaware site show him arriving if he never made it??  Confused
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:27 pm

The problem with the V-tails was (supposedly) cured by an AD which mandated reinforcing the leading edge of the stabilators; the breakups were caused by the stabilators fluttering and self-destructing, although I have heard anecdotal evidence that the problem has not entirely been cured. Supposedly only later-model V-tails were affected (the early ones were shorter) but I have no authoritative source on that; the AD I believe applies to all. In any case the A36 has always been a straight tail. As to the T-34 issue, the Bonanza is not approved for aerobatics and the T-34 is; the problem with the T-34 was fatigue failure of the spar which should not be an issue if aerobatics are not performed. Even occasional aerobatics should not be an issue; the T-34's that crashed had been used for years doing mock dogfights which stresses everyting way beyond what a normal GA aircraft will experience.

Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 8):
So many and now I am embarrassed to admit that I only just remembered when I read the last post that one of them fell to earth doing aerobatics in a Bonanza.

I doubt that the crash was caused by a spar failure-if it had been, you can be sure that the NTSB would have raised a fuss.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 10):
I doubt that the crash was caused by a spar failure-if it had been, you can be sure that the NTSB would have raised a fuss.

This is the only entry I could find in the NTSB data base. It sites a loss of situational awareness as the cause of the accident.



http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?...418X00470&ntsbno=SEA05FA075&akey=1
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 11):
This is the only entry I could find in the NTSB data base. It sites a loss of situational awareness as the cause of the accident.

Thanks for the report; a very sad tale of a brand new pilot in a brand new plane that apparantly was a little too much for him. I've often said that airplanes are very forgiving, but you run out of that forgiveness very abruptly...
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Jerald01
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:36 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 9):
Why does the Flightaware site show him arriving if he never made it??

They had a choice: either show him arriving or show him continuing to fly. I don't think their tracking system extends to the hereafter...
"There may be old pilots, and there may be bold pilots, but there are darn few green cows"
 
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vzlet
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:08 pm

As far as I remember, all of the V-tail Bonanza breakups occurred outside the approved flight envelope. The leading-edge reinforcement was a relatively simple improvement and provided an increased margin of safety.

I agree completely with SEPilot's take on the T-34 situation.
"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting Vzlet (Reply 14):
As far as I remember, all of the V-tail Bonanza breakups occurred outside the approved flight envelope. The leading-edge reinforcement was a relatively simple improvement and provided an increased margin of safety.

I don't believe that this is true, and it is demonstrated by the incident that provided the cure. It seems that a V-tail was in the landing pattern when one stabilator started fluttering, but it was so close to landing that it did land safely. The part of the stabilator that was forward of the spar was bent at 90 degrees to the rest; that is what led to the leading edge reinforcement. That it did not completely solve the problem is illustrated by another story I read. In this case a V-tail owner had arranged to sell his plane and was flying it to be inspected by the buyer's mechanic (the reinforcement having already been done on this plane) when he started experiencing severe vibration from the tail. Upon landing the entire rear fuselage was found to be structurally compromised by the vibration, which I think I recall was caused by control surface flutter. The point is that the balance of V-tail control surfaces is extremely critical and can be upset by very small things, such as improper painting.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
dstc47
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:21 pm

A sad story


If I recall corectly the early V tail Bonanza was once called "the Doctor killer" as they were aircraft often bought by pilots with more money than hours, leading to low time pilots being caught out by the aircraft characteristics, in unexpected flight conditions, particularly the fondness for a fast descent.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting Dstc47 (Reply 16):
If I recall corectly the early V tail Bonanza was once called "the Doctor killer" as they were aircraft often bought by pilots with more money than hours, leading to low time pilots being caught out by the aircraft characteristics, in unexpected flight conditions, particularly the fondness for a fast descent.

Absolutely true, and unfortunately has not changed.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
2H4
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:49 am




Quoting SEPilot (Reply 10):
the Bonanza is not approved for aerobatics

Not that it matters with regard to the crash being discussed, but there was in fact a Bonanza produced that was certified for aerobatics.....the E33C (25 produced) and F33C (five produced). They were certified for just about all inside aerobatic maneuvers including snap rolls and momentary inverted flight.









2H4


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SEPilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
Not that it matters with regard to the crash being discussed, but there was in fact a Bonanza produced that was certified for aerobatics.....the E33C (25 produced) and F33C (five produced).

I did not know that-thanks for the info. These would be V-tails and have lower gross weights than the A36; but it is not really that surprising that Beech would have built them, as the T-34 was fully aerobatic and built on the Bonanza wings and straight tail (the fuselage was different.) Were there weight restrictions on the E33C and F33C when used for aerobatics? I would expect that. I'm not surprised they didn't sell very well; most aerobatic planes have fixed gear, which is probably an advantage, limiting speed buildup in power dives. Also, when these were built I don't think that aerobatics were as popular as they are today.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
2H4
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:29 am




Quoting SEPilot (Reply 19):
Were there weight restrictions on the E33C and F33C when used for aerobatics?

Good question...I'm not sure.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 19):
Also, when these were built I don't think that aerobatics were as popular as they are today.

1968 through 1970. As for the popularity of aerobatics at the time, you might be right, but I believe Bellanca was selling their Citabrias and Decathlons during that time period, too.


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SEPilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 20):
As for the popularity of aerobatics at the time, you might be right, but I believe Bellanca was selling their Citabrias and Decathlons during that time period, too.

These are still popular aerobatic planes; those that can afford better usually go for Extras or Yaks, which were not available then. I think at the time the more affluent probably sought out WWII fighters or trainers. I was a teenager then and not attuned to GA at the time, but my perception is that aerobatics is much more popular now. I used to run an airport, and during that time we hosted the first ever aerobatic competition in the area, and it has returned not every year but almost every year since.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):

Does the Bonanza fit this description?

Yes. I've got several hundred hours in the A36 and I can tell you that several times I've been able to take it right to VNE in a slightly nose down position with full throttle and 2500RPM. It's quite easy to do. One time on approach to ABQ the controller told me to speed it up for an incoming 757 and I did the above. At about 2 mile final the controller told me I could pull it back since I was doing 40 knots faster ground speed than the 757. I've got several of those kinds of stories. The new G36 is quite impressive too, even if you've flown the A36.
 
sllevin
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting Vzlet (Reply 14):
As far as I remember, all of the V-tail Bonanza breakups occurred outside the approved flight envelope.

IIRC, that's why there's just a service bulletin and not an airworthiness directive to apply the reinforcement.

Beech built a remote controlled Bonanza to dive test it and found that they ran out of control authority at 5G's and couldn't pull the tail off.

The Bonanza's are tough places, but you can get them into trouble if you get the nose buried with the gear in the wells.

Steve
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 23):
IIRC, that's why there's just a service bulletin and not an airworthiness directive to apply the reinforcement.

I did not realize that it was a service bulletin; I was under the impression that it was an AD.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 10):
I doubt that the crash was caused by a spar failure-if it had been, you can be sure that the NTSB would have raised a fuss.

This other Bonanza accident I referred to and where the pilot was well known to me occurred in the U.K. around 17 years ago. He was a very experienced jet pilot and working for an airline at the time. My recollection is that the aircraft had not broken up prior to hitting the ground, but control of the aircraft was thought to have been lost during an aerobatic manoeuvre.
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:46 pm

Regardless of all the above "I love the Bonanza" more than any single piston engine Cessna, Piper or Cirrus.
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 8):
Hotshot born to fly test pilots are at one end of the spectrum and the guys who are accidents waiting to happen are at the other end

That's funny, few would argue they are at opposite ends. One would argue that a hotshot test pilot and an accident waiting to happen are very close to the same thing.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 27):
One would argue that a hotshot test pilot and an accident waiting to happen are very close to the same thing.

Perhaps "hotshot" was an unfortunate choice of a word on my part. ...However, in the past I've sat next to a few British military test pilots and watched them demonstrate "unrivalled natural skill" in some interesting scenarios. Also in a past life I accrued 2000hours as a flight instructor and so I have witnessed a very wide range of pilot ability.
 
sccutler
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:24 pm

The Bonanzas are magnificent aircraft, and will tolerate a great deal of abuse. But they cannot (and will not) save a pilot from his or her stupidity forever.

And yes, the Bo is slippery little sucker, especially significant if the pilot is relatively inexperienced in complex/HP aircraft, and fails to make descent planing a priority.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 28):
Perhaps "hotshot" was an unfortunate choice of a word on my part. ...However, in the past I've sat next to a few British military test pilots and watched them demonstrate "unrivalled natural skill" in some interesting scenarios.

I get your point; "hotshot" conveys a carefree attitude which true professionals abhor. The real test pilot is one who carefully assesses the risks and his own skill and takes every measure possible to minimize those risks. There are certainly those out there who have amazing skill and know exactly what they are doing, and they may appear as hotshots to those of us less skilled and experienced, but in fact are anything but. We certainly are indebted to these daring souls for they have made many of the advances in aviation possible, and unfortunately many have lost their lives doing it through no fault of their own (i.e. the crashes of the Boeing 299 and the first B-29 among others.)
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:46 am

I think one reason why the Cessna 15x/17x/18x series of generation aviation planes are so well-liked was the plane had excellent, benign recovery characteristics from trying to fly outside the aerodynamic envelope of the plane.

It's likely that the Bonanza can be a bit tricky to recover from flying outside the aerodynamic envelope of the plane.
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:26 am

I would have to recommend the Cessna 172 and 182 in front of Beech, Piper and Cirrus to inexperienced pilots and especially to those pilots who suspect their wings might be a bit shaky.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Bonanza Break Up In Flight.

Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 32):
I would have to recommend the Cessna 172 and 182 in front of Beech, Piper and Cirrus to inexperienced pilots and especially to those pilots who suspect their wings might be a bit shaky.

 checkmark 
The C-172 and 182 are certainly the most stable and forgiving light airplanes ever; most of my time is in them, although I have also a fair amount in a Piper Arrow. I have to say that while the Arrow is a nice aircraft, the Cessnas are easier to fly and harder to get into trouble in. I owned a 182 for 10 years; I enjoyed every minute of it.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler