UAPremierGuy
Topic Author
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9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:15 pm

Not very clear on extent of damage, or how or where (i.e. in air or on ground) it occurred...

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=64966
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F9Animal
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:01 pm

As I read it, they said it was windshield damage. If that is the case, I would suspect perhaps hail? Strong winds are nothing new to DEN, so I would have a hard time believing it was caused by just that, especially if it was the windshields.
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ytib
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:03 am

This morning I heard Joe Hodas state on 9News they are unsure of what caused this damage. Two of the aircraft were at the gate, while two were departing when the damage occurred. Those two returned to DEN. He did state a longshot could be something with the ground power not at the proper voltage causing damage with the electricity within the window, however that does sound odd.

I am wondering at what gates these aircraft were parked, as F9 has two gates at the far east of Concourse A and Skywest has gates at the east side of Concourse B could that be something leading to the possible cause?
 
hmmmm...
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In

Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:24 am

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WEATHER/02/17/winter.weather.ap/index.html

CNN reports 13 cracked windshields in total but says nothing about hail. Very strange. Looks like Denver has a crack problem.

[Edited 2007-02-17 19:27:03]
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detroitflyer
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:47 am

damn, thats gotta cost a lot and frustrate many passengers if they end up delaying/cancelling (which they would probably have to )
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aerowrench
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:57 am

The opinion from the mechanics working on the OO aircraft is that small pebbles were being blown up by the strong winds. On one of the aircraft, a CRJ 700, all four cockpit windows were cracked.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:00 am

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srbmod
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 6):

Actually, this thread was started over 6 hours prior to your thread in Tech/Ops.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 7):

Yes, however the other thread also contains some other info of interest to the topic...
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azncsa4qf744er
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:13 am

There was a mixture of CR2, CR7, and EMB’s. One of the CR7 had all four windshields cracks.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:30 am

I once had a Ford Crown Victoria with an electricly defrosted windshield. One winter day the system went bonkers (too high voltage) and it overheated the windshiend and broke it. Wonder if that same scenario is possible here??
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EI321
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:01 am

Wow this sounds really strange!
 
flyf15
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:07 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 10):
I once had a Ford Crown Victoria with an electricly defrosted windshield. One winter day the system went bonkers (too high voltage) and it overheated the windshiend and broke it. Wonder if that same scenario is possible here??

You know, the heaters in cockpit windshields do occasionally crap out and cause the window to shatter, but 13 at one airport in one day is not normal. Something else is the cause of this....

I'm also not buying the "wind" explaination, these windshields experience wind of 600mph in cruise and are nowhere near their failure point. Unless the wind on the ground had airborne debris in it...
 
mkorpal
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:24 am

It's almost certainly wind with debris. Whenever we have large snowstorms, they put down a lot of gravel to help break up ice. And since we have not had a large wind event since the blizzards of December, it's conceivable that the gravel was still on the ground. That is most likely the cause of the cracked windshields. What is surprising to me is the fact that no mainline aircraft had this problem. I wonder if the crj/emb's windshields are weaker/thiner than those found on larger aircraft.
 
ATCme
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 13):
What is surprising to me is the fact that no mainline aircraft had this problem. I wonder if the crj/emb's windshields are weaker/thiner than those found on larger aircraft.

Would you consider 4 Frontier jets mainline?
How much difference in height is there between a CRJ and say an A320? Could that be part of it?

Anyway, this seems really odd, must have been something to do with the wind and debris or something...

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flyf15
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In

Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 13):
I wonder if the crj/emb's windshields are weaker/thiner than those found on larger aircraft.

Can't say I know much about this, but I do know that our (CRJ) windshields are 3 panes of glass. MD-11s have 7 panes.
 
mkorpal
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting ATCme (Reply 14):
Would you consider 4 Frontier jets mainline?

A few posts above mentioned it was a mix of CR2, CR7, and EMB's. So, I figured the frontier jets were CR7's.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:26 am

From what I understand, and what wasn't mentioned in that news report, was that not only were the SkyWest and Frontier birds cracked, but also a few Delta and a handful of others. The only reason I can think that they didn't get included on the report was because they only had 1-2 aircraft there during that period of time, and wasn't nearly as big a deal to them.

Also, this was not only occurring on the ground, but also in the air.

At the time this was happening, a cold front was approaching the area, with the jet stream sitting right on top of it. The jet stream slowed down the front's ground speed, which caused the prolonged gusty winds, coupled with the lifting action of the front, which most likely took debris of some sort into the atmosphere with it.
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707lvr
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:05 pm

This story can't be not done yet. It sounds as if "whatever" managed to damage only windshields of small jets. No automobiles, service vehicles, terminal windows? No dings on any metal, no dents? Does not add up. Something else has to be going on.
 
mkorpal
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:15 pm

I wonder, is it actually possible for a sudden gust of wind to actually break windows by it's self. I's it possible for a wind gust of 80 mph to actually break glass. I would think that if the wind speed goes from 0 to 80 in a split second, it could have enough force to break the glass.
 
flyorski
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:53 pm

Something does not add up. I do not think that the cockpit windows could be damaged and not the rest of the terminal.
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EnviroTO
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In

Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:23 pm

What was the weather conditions at the time? Any hail or rapid changes in temperature?
 
hmmmm...
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In

Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:53 pm

Simply debris in the wind is not the culprit. If that were the case, the ground vehicles and terminal windows would have cracked windows, too. They crack much easier than aircraft windows. Yet, no report of that. Two of the airplanes had their windows crack in flight. An electrical defroster problem could explain one jet with a cracked window, but not 13.

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DAYflyer
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 20):
Something does not add up.

I agree. The whole thing is just plane suspicious. There are too many aircraft involved. Perhaps there was some vandalism going on here...
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roseflyer
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:49 am

Crazy things can happen. It's not impossible for something that caused resonance in the mounting system and caused windows to break. It's highly unlikely, but not unprecedented. There once was a prop plane by lockhheed I think that had the engines create a vibration that was at the natural frequency of the wing, and then end result was it caused the wings to fall off even though they were mounted perfectly well. A little metal piece added to the wing fixed the problem. Another case where something crazy happend was with the fatigue cracks in the WWII liberty ships. If something small as a hammer was dropped in a certain part of the deck of the ship, the whole ship would break in half.

If these were all the same type of plane, then something weird could have happened. Lots of stuff is possible. But in the end I think there is just some missing information.

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 19):
I wonder, is it actually possible for a sudden gust of wind to actually break windows by it's self. I's it possible for a wind gust of 80 mph to actually break glass. I would think that if the wind speed goes from 0 to 80 in a split second, it could have enough force to break the glass.

I seriously doubt that. Airplane windows handle the force of flying at 600mph, so a gust probably would not do it. Even if it was modelled as an impact force and a sudden gust, then I doubt it is possible.
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toering
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:18 am

Some of the aircraft were in flight when the cracks happened (According to the AP)
Does anyone check the side windows for cracks? Could it be the tork on the screws or bolts that are holding the windscreen along with temp and other weather conditions? Windscreen expansion at DEN altitude?
 
hmmmm...
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In

Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 24):
If something small as a hammer was dropped in a certain part of the deck of the ship, the whole ship would break in half.

They had some problems with cracks in the welds, and some ships were lost at sea, but not because anybody dropped a hammer. lol.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 24):
Airplane windows handle the force of flying at 600mph

At altitude, the wind is not 600 mph, more like 300 Knots. The Vmo of a 767, for example, is around 360 knots. As you climb higher, there is less wind to hit the windshield.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
beefstew25
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:33 pm

Any update on this? Is terrorism a concern here?
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philb
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RE: 9 Skywest Planes/ 4 Frontier Planes Damaged In DEN

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:01 pm

A possible cause could be any gravel hiitting the windscreens on the ground could cause minute cracking of the glass and alter the tension of the surface compared to the laminated layers beneath. This would happen at a given temperature on each aircraft.

On departing aircraft, on climb out, windshield heat would be selected on. This would change the surface temperature of the glass and, in effect, allow the surface to move as part of the laminate thus giving the microscopic crack the chance to expand.

On arriving aircraft the windscreen heat would be set to off on return to the gate and the glass would cool and contract with similar results.

This happens to cars with heat elements in their windscreens from time to time but, because their laminates aremuch thinner, they tend to shatter.

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