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Coal
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SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:26 pm

I'm sure this has come up before in the past, but it still baffles me that SQ fly the non-stop A345 flight into EWR and not JFK. As a *A member, the only connecting options to South Florida are via IAD or CLT. So what's the logic behind this? Do they have a codeshare on a non-*A carrier to MIA or FLL?

Cheers,
Coal
Nxt Flts: MI RGN-SIN | SQ SIN-RGN-SIN | CX SIN-HKG-PVG | SQ PVG-SIN
 
Mir
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:20 pm

Their connection possibilities wouldn't be so good in JFK either. *A has very little presence in NYC.

IIRC, EWR has the advantage of being closer to several corporate headquarters and business centers in New Jersey.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
stylo777
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:23 pm

they already fly to JFK via FRA and want to keep that flight because of the high yields and the good business. So they opt to fly non-stop to EWR, which is an alternative for passengers who want to travel just to NYC. EWR is closer to the city.
 
Humberside
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:43 pm

Star has even worse domestic connections at JFK than at EWR

UA

IAD/LAX/SFO - both airports
ORD/DEN - only EWR

US

PHX/LAS/CLT - both airports
PIT/PHL - EWR only

[Edited 2007-02-19 14:59:51]
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DiscoverCSG
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:44 pm

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 2):
EWR is closer to the city.

How can that be the case? JFK is in the city!!
 
airbazar
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 4):
How can that be the case? JFK is in the city!!

I think that by city he means Manhattan. EWR is closer to Manhattan than JFK.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:55 pm

Also, EWR actually has better train connections into Manhattan than from JFK. You can ride NJ Transit trains nonstop into Penn Station in Manhattan. From JFK, you ride the AirTrain to either the Howard Beach subway station or the Jamaica LIRR station, then transfer to another train to get into Manhattan.
 
desertjets
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 6):
EWR actually has better train connections into Manhattan than from JFK.

As much as we talk about how EWR has better rail connections vs. JFK... how many pax flying in on SQ from Singapore are actually taking the train into Manhattan. I would like to think if they can afford (or their company's travel department) the airfare, they are going to pony up the money for a car service into the city.

But anyways the non-stop SIN-EWR is aimed heavily at the O&D market. The 1-stoppers to LAX or SFO would be more likely choices if you needed to make a domestic *A connection.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
ltbewr
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:07 am

Domestic (USA) airline connections are a lot better at EWR vs. JFK, especially as EWR is CO's hub. Several other airlines along with CO also offer direct or non-stop service on their mainline or short haul subs to major and a number of smaller cities throughout North America, especially in the Eastern USA. It would be interesting to find out how many of pax on SQ's EWR-SIN service used connecting flights for it.
 
jm017
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 6):
Also, EWR actually has better train connections into Manhattan than from JFK. You can ride NJ Transit trains nonstop into Penn Station in Manhattan.

The convenience is about the same, if not slightly in JFK's favor. If you take the AirTrain from either airport, you have to transfer once. From EWR, you transfer to NJT and from JFK, you transfer to the LIRR. NJT makes a maximum of three stops (and about 28 minutes) from there to Penn Station. The LIRR (which runs more) makes a maximum of four stop to Penn Station (taking 21 minutes or so). Not a big difference if you ask me. I am not sure where this misconception of EWR's connection being more convenient comes from but it is simply not true.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
dutchjet
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:48 am

Its NOT all about connections.........there is something called O&D traffic which is the best yeilding and most interesting type of airtravel than an airline can offer. SIN-EWR is offered mainly because of O&D traffic and connections are not a big issue on the EWR side of the segment; SQ can offer some connections out of its SIN hub to regional cities, but this flight was introduced, works and will succeed or fail based upon passengers travelling between SIN and NYC. Dont forget that NYC is the financial capital of the US (if not the World), dont foreget that NYC is a key business and leisure destination, dont forget that NYC is the traditional gateway to the US. Newark is a good airport and is very conveneient for pax going to/from Manahattan......EWR is closer to the Wall Street Financial District that JFK and it part of the attraction.

Why did the SQ nonstop flight end up at EWR? SQ did fly EWR-AMS-SIN with a 744 for many years....the flight operated 3 or 4 times per week and was not a great success: non-daily flights generally do not appeal to biz travellers and the loads/yeilds on the EWR-AMS segment were horrible (SQ tried to keep the Y cabin filled by offering super bargain fares out of AMS to EWR.) SQ also offered daily JFK-FRA-SIN service with a 744 and that flight is a success. Thus, when the A345 and the nonstop service was introduced, SQ did not want to drop the JFK-FRA-SIN flight and was more than happy to drop the EWR-AMS-SIN route......in order to maintain service to both airports, JFK kept the one stop 744 and EWR got the new daily nonstop A345.
 
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STT757
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting JM017 (Reply 9):
NJT makes a maximum of three stops (and about 28 minutes) from there to Penn Station.

There are only two stops between Newark Airport and NY Penn (Newark Penn, Secaucus transfer), all trains stop at Newark Penn only about half stop at Secaucus Jct.

1/2 the NJ Transit make one stop, the other half make 2 stops.

Amtrak makes only one stop, I've taken Amtrak from NY Penn to Newark Airport a couple of times and from NY Penn to the Airtrain at EWR was 19 minutes.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
nycfly75
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
.EWR is closer to the Wall Street Financial District that JFK and it part of the attraction.

If and when the rail connection is built between JFK and downtown Manhattan, the dynamics may change a little and JFK will be and even more attractive option than EWR.
 
dutchjet
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 12):

If and when the rail connection is built between JFK and downtown Manhattan, the dynamics may change a little and JFK will be and even more attractive option than EWR.

Fine....please lets not do the EWR vs JFK thing for the hundreth time.
 
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STT757
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 12):
If and when the rail connection is built between JFK and downtown Manhattan, the dynamics may change a little and JFK will be and even more attractive option than EWR.

The JFK-Lower Manhattan rail link has as much chance if not less than the PATH extension to EWR, the PATH Extension on the World Trade Center line to EWR is estimated to cost $550 Million. The JFK-Lower Manhattan rail link is estimated to cost $7 Billion, that's a tremendous difference.

The PATH line ends 1.5 miles from the Newark Airport rail link station, they just need to continue the tracks 1.5 miles along the NEC and expand the Airtrain station. For the JFK rail link they need to tunnel underneath Downtown Brooklyn, the East River and convert the entire Atlantic Avenue Branch to Airtrain standards. The complexity and cost of the two projects are great, yet the end result would be the same (rail access from Lower Manhattan to an airport).

Since the Port Authority is a bi-State agency NJ and NY have equal control, the PATH extension is not happening without NY approving and the JFK-Lower Manhattan project is not happening without NJ support, so the likely outcome is both or neither projects will be built.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
stylo777
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:48 am

I know that FRA-JFK is almost full every day as well as the two times daily FRA-SIN flights of SQ. But what about the SIN-EWR? How high are the loads here?


.... and please stop debating about railway connex JFK vs. EWR...
 
ZRH
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting JM017 (Reply 9):
The convenience is about the same, if not slightly in JFK's favor. If you take the AirTrain from either airport, you have to transfer once. From EWR, you transfer to NJT and from JFK, you transfer to the LIRR. NJT makes a maximum of three stops (and about 28 minutes) from there to Penn Station. The LIRR (which runs more) makes a maximum of four stop to Penn Station (taking 21 minutes or so). Not a big difference if you ask me. I am not sure where this misconception of EWR's connection being more convenient comes from but it is simply not true.

I agree. And if you take a taxi JFK is better and cheaper.
 
roseflyer
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:12 am

I have flown this route and yes it is significantly based on O/D. A key thing not to forget is that SQ has a very low capacity on the A345. At just abot 180 seats, the A345 has about the same number of seats as a 757. That isn't that many. They are expensive seats and are not to be diluted by lower yielding connecting traffic. In general connecting traffic is lower yielding since if you are willing to make a stop, there are so many more choices and competing airlines.

However I flew this route on a connection. I flew UA ORD-EWR to connect to EWR-SIN and was not the only one to do that. Trip reports: SQ/UA SIN-EWR-ORD Raffles Class (stranded In EWR) (by RoseFlyer Oct 24 2005 in Trip Reports) United/Singapore ORD-EWR-SIN In Raffles Class (by RoseFlyer Oct 17 2005 in Trip Reports)
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
StuckInCA
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 7):
how many pax flying in on SQ from Singapore are actually taking the train into Manhattan. I would like to think if they can afford (or their company's travel department) the airfare, they are going to pony up the money for a car service into the city.

This seems like a strange conclusion to me. My former company put employees on this flight on occasion and would probably balk at a car service unless several people were sharing.
 
blueflyer
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:27 am

Also not to be neglected is the CO effect. Even though SQ is not in alliance with CO, there are many companies (some large enough to have a dedicated check-in counter) who are so used to sending their employees to EWR wherever they need to go somewhere due to the CO hub that it is "natural" for them to think of EWR first and JFK second when having to travel somewhere CO doesn't go.

If CO didn't operate a hub at EWR, I'd be willing to bet we'd see a lot less flights from other international carriers as well.
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n844aa
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 18):
This seems like a strange conclusion to me. My former company put employees on this flight on occasion and would probably balk at a car service unless several people were sharing.

From EWR into Manhattan, a car service is actually a good bit cheaper than a taxi.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:37 am

When I travel to NYC, I always use EWR because it is closer and more convenient to access Manhattan. I never fly to LGA or JFK.

SQ flies nonstop to both EWR and LAX. I think these flights target the O&D traffic for the most part. From what I have read, both the LAX-SIN and EWR-SIN fill up very well every day. I dont think SQ really markets to the connecting traffic. I would venture that the market that serves the most connections for SQ is SFO because of the realationship with UA. Followed by LAX with our smaller UA hub. I would bet the NYC flights rely the least on connections.
It is what it is...
 
dutchjet
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):

Fine....please lets not do the EWR vs JFK thing for the hundreth time.



Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 15):
.... and please stop debating about railway connex JFK vs. EWR...

Seriously, the JFK vs EWR thing has been done so many times.......cant we all agree that NYC has two very good international airports and leave it at that?

-----------------------------

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 15):
I know that FRA-JFK is almost full every day as well as the two times daily FRA-SIN flights of SQ. But what about the SIN-EWR? How high are the loads here?

From what I hear, loads are rather good on the SIN-EWR nonstop.....in both classes of service. Good, not great...and due to the low density configuration of the SQ A345s, there is speculation that good loads are not enough for the airline to make money on the route. SQ is probably breaking even on the route, nothing more. The same is true over at LAX.

Over the years, there has been a lot of talk about SQ replacing the A345s with the 772LRs. SQ had not yet made its move. Also note that SQ passed on its options for the 5 additional A345s that were part of the original A345 deal. One can only conclude that SQ is still evaluating the business case for ULH services and SQ is not yet convinced that the flights are money makers. Connecting SIN with the US with nonstop flights was a long-time goal at SQ - but thus far the financial performance of the ULH flights has been underwhelming. Is the issue the A345? Is the issue lack of demand? Is it simply that pax do not want to sit 15+ hours on an airplane nonstop? Its still unclear......but makes for a very intereating discussion.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 22):
Seriously, the JFK vs EWR thing has been done so many times.......cant we all agree that NYC has two very good international airports and leave it at that?

I’m not sure how this discussion could be furthered without comparing JFK and EWR. As long as the conversation is civil and everyone is respectful towards the two airports, I could care less if it’s been discussed a billion times.
 
Mir
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 11):
There are only two stops between Newark Airport and NY Penn (Newark Penn, Secaucus transfer), all trains stop at Newark Penn only about half stop at Secaucus Jct.

1/2 the NJ Transit make one stop, the other half make 2 stops.

Amtrak makes only one stop, I've taken Amtrak from NY Penn to Newark Airport a couple of times and from NY Penn to the Airtrain at EWR was 19 minutes.

LIRR is still more frequent and thus more convenient, despite the possibility of more stops. However, if you're going to someplace that's not the city and not Long Island, EWR has better connections than does JFK.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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STT757
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:53 am

Plenty of folks use Amtrak to connect to flights at EWR, in an hour you can be in Philadelphia or Stamford
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
flyswim
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:09 am

The LIRR option is also a little cheaper than EWR with airtrain, I believe. Subway is cheapest of all to JFK, if you have the extra hour+ time.
 
CXfirst
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:34 am

If I am in Singapore and I want to get to let's say ORD, IAH, etc. I would fly through LAX, as it would be better for connections. Who flys an 18 hour flight and then backtracks to another destination, when there are better options (except of an a.netter)

-CXfirst
 
paneuropean
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
Why did the SQ nonstop flight end up at EWR? SQ did fly EWR-AMS-SIN with a 744 for many years....the flight operated 3 or 4 times per week and was not a great success: non-daily flights generally do not appeal to biz travellers and the loads/yeilds on the EWR-AMS segment were horrible (SQ tried to keep the Y cabin filled by offering super bargain fares out of AMS to EWR.)

SQ introduced SIN- NYC to JFK through AMS before they switched it to EWR. Do you know what the yeilds were on the JFK AMS sector ?
In addition, I remember SQ introducing SIN- ORD through AMS, this route doesn't exist anymore. SQ flew to the US daily through AMS. 4 times JFK and 3 times ORD.
SQ was really focusing on AMS as stopover station for their US flights and AMS totally lost this function, partly due to SQ entering the Star alliance. So I wonder why SQ chose Amsterdam to bounce through.
When reading this forum, It looks like AMS is relatively weak, when it comes to O&D traffic. They miss a few important airlines, because of low yeilds. Do you know what airlines have high yeilds to Schiphol ?

Cheers.
 
jfk777
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:14 am

It still surprises me they kept the JFK-FRA-SIN flight, with the odd times from FRA to JFK and JFK to FRA they have to do deals to sell the Atlantic part as they did with the EWR-AMS-SIN service. I don't think SIA needs the vanity to say we have "around the world service", since EWR-SIN goes west and JFK-FRA-SIN goes east. SIA should stick to one nonstop flight to the New York area, but switch to JFK.
 
dutchjet
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 28):
SQ introduced SIN- NYC to JFK through AMS before they switched it to EWR. Do you know what the yeilds were on the JFK AMS sector ?

The initial routing was JFK-FRA-SIN (4 times per week) and JFK-BRU-SIN (3 times per week) back in the 1990s....I could be wrong, but I dont think that the JFK route ever went via AMS. The BRU stopover was dumped in favor of daily service via Frankfurt (or maybe there was a short period with an AMS stopover) and the EWR-AMS-SIN flight was introduced later on first 3 times per week and then four times per week.

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 28):
In addition, I remember SQ introducing SIN- ORD through AMS, this route doesn't exist anymore. SQ flew to the US daily through AMS. 4 times JFK and 3 times ORD

SQ in 2001 operated ORD-AMS-SIN and it was quickly dropped after the 9/11 downturn.....this flight had nothing to do with the JFK operation as, by that point in time, SQ was operating JFK-FRA-SIN daily.

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 28):
SQ was really focusing on AMS as stopover station for their US flights and AMS totally
ost this function, partly due to SQ entering the Star alliance. So I wonder why SQ chose Amsterdam to bounce through.
When reading this forum, It looks like AMS is relatively weak, when it comes to O&D traffic. They miss a few important airlines, because of low yeilds. Do you know what airlines have high yeilds to Schiphol ?

Not correct, sorry, SQ has paired AMS with other cities over the years in order to keep airplanes filled and offer a daily flight in the market. Over the years, SQ has operated EWR-AMS-SIN, MAN-AMS-SIN, ORD-AMS-SIN, AMS-ZRH-SIN, etc. SQ chose AMS as a gateway for practical reasons....keeping the airplane filled going to SIN, and because entry into the US/Netherlands market is rather easy due to complete open skies. AMS is a reasonable destination, but ceratinly does not have the same amount of O&D as cities such as LHR, CDG or FRA and yeilds/premium demand into AMS are not as strong as some other EU destinations. ALso, consider that AMS is solid SkyTeam territory with KL/AF having a major hub and KL/NW operating a large joint transatlantic network out of AMS.
 
jm017
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 11):
There are only two stops between Newark Airport and NY Penn (Newark Penn, Secaucus transfer), all trains stop at Newark Penn only about half stop at Secaucus Jct.

Hence my use of the word MAXIMUM. A MAXIMUM of three stops. Anyway, that trip is LONGER than an LIRR train making local stops.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
roseflyer
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:13 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 27):
If I am in Singapore and I want to get to let's say ORD, IAH, etc. I would fly through LAX, as it would be better for connections. Who flys an 18 hour flight and then backtracks to another destination, when there are better options (except of an a.netter)

Actually that isn't an option. The SIN-LAX flight arrives too late in the day for connections to ORD or IAH from LAX unless you are willing to have a long layover to wait for the red eye departures. SIN-EWR allows for connections to the eastern half of the country. If you are going to go via LAX, you have to take the one stop flight, which means a double connection to get to your destination, which puts SQ at a disadvantage to other airlines that offer those same flights with a single stop.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
jm017
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:14 am

I always wondered about SQ operating nonstop from EWR. The reasons above do make sense. The JFK-FRA-SIN routing is profitable, and that's what counts.

Maybe someone mentioned this, but how often does the EWR-SIN flight operate?
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
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STT757
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting JM017 (Reply 33):
Maybe someone mentioned this, but how often does the EWR-SIN flight operate?

Daily.

Quoting JM017 (Reply 31):
A MAXIMUM of three stops. Anyway, that trip is LONGER than an LIRR train making local stops.

The quickest trip is Amtrak from EWR to NY Penn, I did it a couple of times and it was less than 20 minutes.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
deltairlines
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RE: SQ To EWR: Why? Any Good Connections?

Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:23 am

LIRR is indeed quicker than NJ Transit going to their respective airports...but only by about 3-4 minutes. The thing where the LIRR makes the difference is there's seemingly a train every 5-10 minutes out to Jamaica during the day (since all trains from Penn Station except Port Washington trains stop there). With NJ Transit, only about 60% of their trains stop at EWR, as the MidTown Direct trains to Dover/Gladstone/Montclair all go onto the Morris and Essex after Secaucus...during the day, there's an hourly Coast Line train to Long Branch and about half-hourly trains to Trenton, so there is a bit less frequency. As for taking Amtrak NYP-EWR, that would be an option less than 1% of people travelling would really consider; not only is it much more expensive (cheapest fare I've seen on that route is $30), but frequency is also a lot less (selected regionals and all Keystones; much less than NJT's frequency). Shortest scheduled train time there is 20 minutes (not really saving a whole lot of time, since these trains all stop at Newark/Penn and the speed differential on the High Line between AEM-7s/HHP-8s and an NJT Arrow/ALP set is minimal (NJT times run from 23 minutes to 26 minutes depending on the time of day; especially when there are almost 80 trains daily. Push comes to shove, travel time is a push; LIRR might just have a slight edge due to frequency, but that's about it.