Cactus742
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:18 am

PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:59 pm

"Phoenix council authorizes $2.9 billion airport expansion"

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0220skyharbor-ON.html

It includes a $1.1B automated, driverless train system and a new 33-gate terminal to replace T2.

Airlines' cost per enplaned passenger rises from $4.65 to $7 or $8 by 2016.

$4.50 per passenger facility fee for every ticket originating at PHX that could rise to $6.

WN and US: not happy.

[Edited 2007-02-21 06:26:28]
Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
 
HPLASOps
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:13 pm

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
WN and US: not happy.

The two largest airlines at the airport will end up paying the most for a bill that will only benefit them minorly. The bulk of it is for replacing T2. I've never been in T2, I don't know what kind of shape it's in and how dire of a need replacement is, but to double rent for everyone to rebuild a terminal that the two biggest carriers won't ever use seems a bit steep.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
TransWorldSTL
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:21 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 1):
I've never been in T2, I don't know what kind of shape it's in and how dire of a need replacement is, but to double rent for everyone to rebuild a terminal that the two biggest carriers won't ever use seems a bit steep.

From what I remember, it's pretty rundown, but I think the airport authority is mostly at fault for that. They built it completely too small (just like all the other terminals), and now they're screwed because they need more gates.

I remember flying down to PHX on TWA right before Terminal 1 was torn down, and I couldn't believe how they could let the terminal just decay like it had. That seems to be a major problem with all the terminals.
 
User avatar
RedTailDTW
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:08 pm

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 1):
but to double rent for everyone to rebuild a terminal that the two biggest carriers won't ever use seems a bit steep.

Isn't Southwest one of the few carriers that will move to the new terminal?
Airlines Flown: AA, CO, HP, MQ, NW, RP, UA, US, WN, YX / Aircraft Flown: 737-200/300/700/800, 757-200/300, 777-200, A319/A320/A321, DC-9-30/50, DC-10-40, ERJ 140/145, E170, MD80/83/90
 
AirTranTUS
Posts: 3313
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:12 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:47 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 1):
The two largest airlines at the airport will end up paying the most for a bill that will only benefit them minorly. The bulk of it is for replacing T2. I've never been in T2, I don't know what kind of shape it's in and how dire of a need replacement is, but to double rent for everyone to rebuild a terminal that the two biggest carriers won't ever use seems a bit steep.

T2 currently houses the UA, CO, AS, AC(?), and Great Lakes gates. At one time I presume there were many shops in the terminal, but now most are drywalled over with local adverts painted on them. The gate waiting areas are not the largest, esp. when CO has 2 738's and an ERJ getting ready to leave around the same time. The terminal does have an excellent view of the south runways from a large set of windows on the south end.

Those new cost are more reason to not fly US from TUS unless you connect in LAS.
I love ASO!
 
Cactus742
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:18 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:50 pm

Here's the FAA report: http://phoenix.gov/skyharborairport/about/PHX_Record_of_Decision.pdf

I thought I had read somewhere that WN would move out of T4 and into the new terminal but I can't find it anywhere.

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 2):
I think the airport authority is mostly at fault for that. They built it completely too small (just like all the other terminals), and now they're screwed because they need more gates.

T2, which was built in 1962, has 14 gates. Yes, it is undersized, but seriously, what could be expected of Phoenix in the early 60s? Blaming Phoenix (or any other city for that matter) for building an undersized terminal by today's standards 45 years ago is not only expected, but it doesn't do much good.

[Edited 2007-02-21 06:53:36]

[Edited 2007-02-21 06:55:04]
Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
 
TransWorldSTL
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:21 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Cactus742 (Reply 5):
I thought I had read somewhere that WN would move out of T4 and into the new terminal but I can't find it anywhere.

It was mentioned in a thread from a couple days ago.. The news article said the plans were for either WN or US to move out of T4 and into the new one.
 
User avatar
RedTailDTW
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:08 pm

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:44 pm

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 6):
It was mentioned in a thread from a couple days ago.. The news article said the plans were for either WN or US to move out of T4 and into the new one.

Well I think that US has too big of an operation to be consolidated into that one 33 Gate terminal.
Airlines Flown: AA, CO, HP, MQ, NW, RP, UA, US, WN, YX / Aircraft Flown: 737-200/300/700/800, 757-200/300, 777-200, A319/A320/A321, DC-9-30/50, DC-10-40, ERJ 140/145, E170, MD80/83/90
 
HPLASOps
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:13 pm

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting RedTailDTW (Reply 7):
Well I think that US has too big of an operation to be consolidated into that one 33 Gate terminal.

We could move if we split YV and mainline operations. Seperately, either airline could fit in those 33 gates, but that causes an extra burden on our pax who make tight connections from mainline to express, and vice versa.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
socalfive
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:37 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:03 pm

I used to fly in and out of T2 in the early 80s on Hughes/Republic and it was a mess THEN, I can't imagine how bad it is now. It was built before jetways then remodeled, remodeled, added onto, remodeled and added onto yet again. It's narrow, no good size departure lounges as previously mentioned and just dark and dingy overall. It handles probably 5 times the passenger traffic it was designed to and has long ago passed it's day in the sun.
 
mauilono
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:23 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:40 pm

Terminal 2 just had another facelift, new carpeting and such. The security checkpoint was also redone, the only decent restaurant before security was removed.
 
jonnywishbone
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:30 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:53 pm

Am transfering from BA to America West to Vegas next month... How traumatic is this and by the sounds of it, do I need my tetanus and hepatitis injections for this run down third world shack???!!!!

OR will I be pleasantly surprised?
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
a new 33-gate terminal to replace T2.

I thought they were REFIRBISHING and expanding T2, not replacing it.

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
WN and US: not happy.

Tough it up, US & WN!

Quoting RedTailDTW (Reply 3):
Isn't Southwest one of the few carriers that will move to the new terminal?

They just GOT a new concourse on the west side of T4. What more do they need?!

Quoting Mauilono (Reply 10):
Terminal 2 just had another facelift, new carpeting and such. The security checkpoint was also redone, the only decent restaurant before security was removed.

 checkmark  Just expand the place, dont tear it down.

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 11):
Am transfering from BA to America West to Vegas next month...

If you are flying through PHX from BA to HP, you'll be fine. Everything is within T4.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
desertjets
Posts: 7563
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:04 am

T2 cannot be expanded or remodeled again. The site that it sits on is too small and you would have to rework the roadways again to expand the terminal building. At that point why not build a completely new structure that can be more easily expanded over the following years. Ultimately you're dealing with a building that is nearly 50 years old, that was not built with the passenger numbers the terminal sees in mind.

As for the new fees, as long as the remain in line w/ other airports in comparable markets then I fail to see what the issue is. Of course tenants don't want to pay more rents, but if the market will bear more, and those increased rents will lead to better facilities, then the City of Phoenix needs to make that move.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
hz747300
Posts: 1906
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:24 am

I will miss the 'outdoor' UA gate... But, alas, it definitely is time for a new T2. If WN & US aren't happy maybe they can move their operations to Tucson or Safford as a protest.
Keep on truckin'...
 
ScottB
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
They just GOT a new concourse on the west side of T4. What more do they need?!

Well, the issue is that once the S1 concourse is added to T4, there's no longer any room for expansion for either WN or US. WN currently uses 24 gates in T4 while US uses a bit over 50. US won't fit into a 33-gate terminal, and their growth would be constrained if WN stays in T4. Having to shuttle between terminals isn't exactly passenger-friendly, either.

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
It includes a $1.1B automated, driverless train system

WTH is up with a billion-dollar train that none of the airlines at PHX need?!

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 13):
As for the new fees, as long as the remain in line w/ other airports in comparable markets then I fail to see what the issue is. Of course tenants don't want to pay more rents

Do you think the passengers want to pay more as well just so some airport managers can stroke their egos? Sure, replacing an outmoded terminal makes tons of sense given that passenger numbers through PHX will continue to increase. But what doesn't make sense is spending $2.9 billion for a net increase of about 20 gates when IAH did the same (along with an entirely new international arrivals facility) for about a quarter of the cost.
 
Junction
Posts: 489
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:50 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:11 am

Is AA still the only carrier using the south concourse of terminal 3? When HP moved to terminal 4, AA was left using only 3 of 10 gates in that location, which would be plenty of room for all the carriers currently in terminal 2. Has the terminal 3 south concourse underutilization situation changed now?
 
Junction
Posts: 489
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:50 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 15):
Having to shuttle between terminals isn't exactly passenger-friendly, either.



Quoting ScottB (Reply 15):
WTH is up with a billion-dollar train that none of the airlines at PHX need?!

This is the reason for trains at most airports. It allows a carrier to be located in more then just one terminal without passenger inconvenience. PHX is way overdo for something other then busses to connect all the terminals. If there were sterile terminal connections (such as a train) set up at PHX, US or WN could have gates at terminal 4 and at the new terminal 2. It would be no different then the AA set up at DFW, and the CO set up at IAH.
 
gift4tbone
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:25 pm

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting Junction (Reply 16):
Is AA still the only carrier using the south concourse of terminal 3? When HP moved to terminal 4, AA was left using only 3 of 10 gates in that location, which would be plenty of room for all the carriers currently in terminal 2. Has the terminal 3 south concourse underutilization situation changed now?

I believe TZ was their for awhile, until the codeshare with WN matured. Also, I believe Sun Country operates out of the South concourse. AA is currently using 4 gates if I recall correctly, which would leave 5 open gates. Would be enough room for UA and AC maybe. But poor CO and AS would get left out in the cold. Besides, the city of phoenix, is all about expanding, growing. So they need room to do so.

-Tony@PVD
Top 3 airports: PVD 23.9%(138 flights), PHL 14.7%(85 flights), PHX 10.2%(59 flights)
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting Junction (Reply 16):
Is AA still the only carrier using the south concourse of terminal 3?

No, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Midwest. (perhaps AirTran?) uses the South Terminal. I support the concept of tearing down T2 and starting over, but its the "people mover"is what I think is a waste of money. Once again its shows how arrogant an airport department can be to suggest something like that, and then have the City Council approve it, since it will be funded by users fees.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting Junction (Reply 17):
It allows a carrier to be located in more then just one terminal without passenger inconvenience.

But... if WN is the primary tenant of T2, there's no need to shuttle passengers between terminals, given that there would be ample room for US and its partners in T4 at that point. And it seems likely that the tram won't be on the sterile side at all.

Quoting Junction (Reply 17):
It would be no different then the AA set up at DFW, and the CO set up at IAH.

Actually, the AA setup at DFW led to a dramatic escalation in costs at the airport, making AA less competitive. And CO built the first phase of the TerminaLink train at IAH itself. The big difference here: neither of PHX's primary tenants wants this boondoggle of a train system.
 
desertjets
Posts: 7563
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
The big difference here: neither of PHX's primary tenants wants this boondoggle of a train system.

To some degree the ATS makes sense. Largely from what has been proposed it isn't really for inter-terminal connections. Though it can be used that way. It will start on the west end at the car rental facility, hit all three terminals, the east economy lot, and then connect w/ the 44th St. light rail station. The argument for it is that it will reduce vehicle congestion (by eliminating the buses and by making it easy to use light rail to get to the airport) and reduce vehicle emissions along Sky Harbor Blvd. I buy the argument to some degree. To make it worthwhile I think they'd need to develop more remote parking lots that are reasonably priced, adjacent to the ATS, to reduce the O&D traffic coming into the central terminal area to park in the individual terminal garages.

That said the first stage of the project was approved earlier (the T3 to 44th St portion). The stage that just got approved was the T3 to car rental facility segment. So I am not clear if the $1.1bn pricetag is for the entire thing or just half of it.

The problem I see is that an ATS is now one of those things that all world-class airports should have. Therefore Sky Harbor needs one in order to be seen as a world-class airport. However, the need for one in the future is there. Its a question of do we build it now for 1.1 billion and have it underutilized, or do we wait 10-15 years and build it then at a higher cost. Or do we do something in between and do the prep work for the project and leave it in wait until there is a real need.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
TransWorldSTL
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:21 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 11):
How traumatic is this and by the sounds of it, do I need my tetanus and hepatitis injections for this run down third world shack???!!!!

OR will I be pleasantly surprised?

You'll be in T4... Newer terminal, but it's basically just four walls, seats, and windows. Nothing special about it.

Quoting Junction (Reply 17):
If there were sterile terminal connections (such as a train) set up at PHX, US or WN could have gates at terminal 4 and at the new terminal 2. It would be no different then the AA set up at DFW, and the CO set up at IAH.

The tram won't provide a sterile terminal connection.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 21):
Therefore Sky Harbor needs one in order to be seen as a world-class airport.

If PHX wants to be a "world class airport", then maybe the airport authority should focus on maybe providing something pleasing to the eye when they build new terminals/concourses/etc. PHX airport is way too bland to be considered 'world class'. T4 is just a bunch of rectangles.. The whole airport is just boring. But it serves it's purpose.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4588
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 14):
If WN & US aren't happy maybe they can move their operations to Tucson or Safford as a protest.

Heh, and watch PHX instantly become a ghost town.
 
Cactus742
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:18 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Junction (Reply 16):
Is AA still the only carrier using the south concourse of terminal 3? When HP moved to terminal 4, AA was left using only 3 of 10 gates in that location, which would be plenty of room for all the carriers currently in terminal 2. Has the terminal 3 south concourse underutilization situation changed now?



Quoting AirCop (Reply 19):
No, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Midwest. (perhaps AirTran?) uses the South Terminal.

Hawaiian, jetBlue and Midwest all share gate 5 on the south concourse of T3. AA still has three gates. Those are the only gates used on that concourse.

AirTran uses gate 19 on the north concourse.
Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
 
MMEPHX
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:54 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting Junction (Reply 17):
WTH is up with a billion-dollar train that none of the airlines at PHX need?!

To provide an alternate access to the airport from the Light Rail (better question: WTH doesn't Light Rail go direct to the airport?) Car parks are often full and congestion is getting worse.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 23):
The whole airport is just boring. But it serves it's purpose

I bet the new terminal is brown...



lots of info and proposed layouts:

http://phoenix.gov/skyharborairport/about/condev-current.html


New 33 Gate Terminal
Automated People Mover
Realign Sky Harbor Blvd (actually this is very extensive and will likely be a nightmare when they build it).
Improvements to T4 International Concourse (good!)
New cross field taxiway and bridge
 
ScottB
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:22 am

Quoting MMEPHX (Reply 25):
To provide an alternate access to the airport from the Light Rail (better question: WTH doesn't Light Rail go direct to the airport?) Car parks are often full and congestion is getting worse.

Well, I guess the real problem is that just the debt service on the bonds issued to build a billion-plus-dollar train system would be higher than the cost of operating buses. That's not even taking into account the additional cost of operating and maintaining the trains. Heck, you could probably provide free taxi service within the airport for less. If you want to lower emissions in the airport, convert over to CNG buses.
 
TSS
Posts: 2479
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

RE: PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council

Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 11):
Am transfering from BA to America West to Vegas next month... How traumatic is this and by the sounds of it, do I need my tetanus and hepatitis injections for this run down third world shack???!!!!

OR will I be pleasantly surprised?

If you're in any concourse except D, you'll be in a completely generic low-ceilinged airport building that will (thankfully) be forgotten as soon as you board the plane.

If you're lucky enough to connect in Concourse D at terminal 4 or have a long enough layover to go exploring there, you'll be pleasantly surprised by the attractive use of high ceilings and native materials that give concourse D a distinctly local flavor...plus there's a pub in that concourse which serves Guiness, on tap if I recall correctly.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 388crazy, Achtstein, Baidu [Spider], CONTACREW, dibble777, gloom, Google Adsense [Bot], N670UW, RalXWB, Zaf and 223 guests