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jetpixx
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Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:01 pm

What is the largest city (in terms of population/catchment area, etc) in the United States and then also the world which is heavily served by multiple airlines, but does not have true hub? Here are a couple of the ideas which came to my mind for the United States, although I certainly could be wrong.

AUS
BDL
BNA
CMH
MSY
SAN
TPA
 
as739x
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:14 pm

BOSTON. Technically not a hub for any airline.

ASLAX
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bimmerkid19
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:23 pm

SIN for QF and a few European Airlines that have intra Southeast Asia flights from SIN and KUL (KLM)
Last flights: LH 3738 MUC - ZRH , LH 3749 ZRH - MUC . Upcoming: EK 50 MUC - DXB 3-aug. and EK 322 DXB - ICN 7- Aug.
 
flyingfool
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:24 pm

Quoting Bimmerkid19 (Reply 2):
SIN for QF and a few European Airlines that have intra Southeast Asia flights from SIN and KUL (KLM)

SIN is hub for Singapore Airlines and KUL for Malaysia Airlines...

Regards, Flyingfool
 
Maverick623
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:25 pm

I would go with BOS myself.
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CXfirst
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:29 pm

Quoting Bimmerkid19 (Reply 2):
SIN for QF and a few European Airlines that have intra Southeast Asia flights from SIN and KUL (KLM)

I think you misunderstood the question.

What is the largest city to not be a hub to any airline?

-CXfirst
 
ei a330-200
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:47 pm

The correct answer would have to be LAX. The 2 most populous counties in the country use LAX. It's a focus city for DL, AA, UA, and WN, but non of them have made it a hub. The SoCal metro area is one of the most populous.

Brian
 
TransWorldSTL
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:59 pm

Quoting EI A330-200 (Reply 6):
The correct answer would have to be LAX.

This is the conclusion that A.Net has come to everytime this thread pops up (once a month, round a bout)
Largest US City That Is Not A Hub (by Styles Aug 3 2003 in Civil Aviation)
 
TYCOON
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:25 pm

Definitely LAX, not really a hub for anyone, just a lot of O&D flights.
 
stylo777
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:42 pm

LAX for sure is the largest... but what about Berlin/TXL?
 
pelican
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:43 pm

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 9):
but what about Berlin/TXL?

Berlin could be the biggest city in Europe without a hub.

pelican
 
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 10):
Berlin could be the biggest city in Europe without a hub.

It most certainly is, at least as far as the city itself goes Berlin is the second largest in Europe after London. Not sure what position they hold as far as entire Metro areas go, though Berlin should still be in front, behind the whole Ruhr area MSA.
Interestingly enough, the second place is hold by Hamburg. Most larger cities in Europe are hub cities for their repective carriers, and I believe outside of Germany and the UK, there are no 1,000,000+ cities in the EU that aren't airline hubs.
 
hardiwv
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:51 pm

In South America GIG is not a hub for any airline, while the two biggest cities in the region have hubs MEX and GRU respectively.

Rgs,
 
Indy
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter):
AUS
BDL
BNA
CMH
MSY
SAN
TPA

IND isn't a hub for anyone.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
TYCOON
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:12 pm

Might be a bit nit-picky, but what is our definition of a hub?
Air Berlin and Germanwings certainly use Berlin as a base of operations/hub (I won't bother counting Easyjet but they do have quite the operation based in Berlin too)
Tuifly (ex. HLX) use Hamburg as a base/hub
And, technically, the new Brazilian LCC Webjet has GIG as its hub.
Are we talking flag-carriers or major operators?
 
incitatus
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 14):
Might be a bit nit-picky, but what is our definition of a hub?

A hub is an airport where an airline maintains a large presence AND it schedules flights in a way that there are many passengers that land there just to change airplanes.

An airport that is a crew/maintenance base is not a hub, even if the airline chooses to call it so.

I fail to see how Webjet Brazil would have a hub in GIG. They don't even have enough airplanes to have a hub anywhere.

The absolute right answer is LAX even though United Airlines calls it one of its hubs. The vast majority of United's passengers at LAX are local.

An airline scheduling 40 well timed flights at an airport may have it as a hub. Another airline scheduling 200 flights at an airport catering to local traffic without regard for convenient connections does not have it as a hub. I don't regard TAM's operation at GRU as a hub because the flight schedule is not convenient for connections.
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BigGSFO
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
The absolute right answer is LAX even though United Airlines calls it one of its hubs. The vast majority of United's passengers at LAX are local.

Nonetheless, UA calls LAX a hub, thus, it is a hub.

There isn't a true definition of what a hub actually is, so we usually have to defer to what the airline refers to as a hub.
 
N766UA
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:12 am

LAX is a United hub, officially. So that's out. BOS is a focus city for AA, US, and DL, but nobody calls it a hub, so my vote goes to BOS.
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aace24
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:14 am

We've had this discussion at least 20 or 30 times already.

It always ends up being an arguement between those who believe LAX is a hub and those who don't.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting AAce24 (Reply 18):
We've had this discussion at least 20 or 30 times already.

It always ends up being an arguement between those who believe LAX is a hub and those who don't.

AGREED. A "hub" is in the eye of the "beholder" (i.e. the airline). Thus LAX is a hub, plain and simple, as UA considers it as such.
 
austinairport
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:32 am

Austin is a large city served by all the major airlines. However being within 200 miles of 2 large airports we get bypassed.
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xjet
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:47 am

JAX is the most populated city in Florida. No hub there. It is a larger city than BOS. It is actually the third most populated city on the east coast.
 
N200WN
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting XJET (Reply 21):
JAX is the most populated city in Florida. No hub there. It is a larger city than BOS. It is actually the third most populated city on the east coast.

Those kind of stats are always fun to throw around, just like El Paso is bigger than Atlanta and San Antonio is larger than Dallas. But metro area population figures are much more accurate and I think more fun to look at as they give you a better idea of how many people really live "there." San Antonio is now the seventh largest city in the country, but the problem is there just aren't that many of us living outside the city limits in the surrounding hills.
 
xjet
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting N200WN (Reply 22):
But metro area population figures are much more accurate and I think more fun to look at as they give you a better idea of how many people really live "there."

Point taken. I was just throwing another city into the mix.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:18 am

BOS is a hub for jetBlue... (along with JFK, IAD, OAK, FLL per their own website)

LAX is a hub for United..

Added info

[Edited 2007-02-21 17:19:31]
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2travel2know
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
In South America GIG is not a hub for any airline, while the two biggest cities in the region have hubs MEX and GRU respectively.

In Southamerica there are quite a number of large cities which aren't hub:
In Brazil I could think of CNF, POA, CWB, SSA, FOR and REC, which I wouldn't call them hubs. In Argentina: COR, MDZ, TUC and ROS. Then there are the "other" large Southamerican cites: CLO, MDE, BAQ, BGA, CTG, MAR, VLN, PZO, GYE and UIO; none of them really qualify as hub.
MEX is Northamerica, and in México I don't see MTY, GDL and TIJ as real hubs.
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777STL
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
The absolute right answer is LAX even though United Airlines calls it one of its hubs. The vast majority of United's passengers at LAX are local.

The definition of a hub is pretty ambigious in my opinion. It is what the airline says it is. If UA calls it a hub, then it's a hub.

Look at AA, BOS and LAX both have more mainline flights than does STL, yet STL is deemed a hub and BOS and LAX aren't. STL doesn't have any international routes either, yet BOS and LAX both do.

I'd still put my money on BOS.
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panam330
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting EI A330-200 (Reply 6):
The correct answer would have to be LAX.

No, it wouldn't be. United calls LAX one of their hubs, as many above have stated.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 24):
Boston is a hub for jetBlue...

No again. It's considered a 'focus city' for them, in addition to a few more airlines (AA, US, DL).

The correct answer would be Boston- in the United States, at least. How about internationally? What's the largest city in Europe or Asia without a hub?
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 26):
I'd still put my money on BOS.

But you can't because JetBlue calls Boston a hub.. next choice?
Aiming High and going far..
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 27):
What's the largest city in Europe or Asia without a hub?

Are Nagoya or Osaka considered hubs by anyone? I would also think there might be half dozen cities in China or India with population 1million+ that don't have hubs.

In Europe, is Berlin considered a hub? Does Swiss consider GVA a hub too?
 
Marcus
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 25):
MEX is Northamerica, and in M?co I don't see MTY, GDL and TIJ as real hubs.

MTY is the hub for Viva Aerobus
GDL is the hub for Alma and
TIJ is the hub for A Volar

I don't think anyone considers SAN as a hub, while WN is the biggest operator at the airport that is not a true hub due to their business model.
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777STL
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 28):
But you can't because JetBlue calls Boston a hub.. next choice?

No. JetBlue doesn't have any hubs, only focus cities per their 10K.

So Boston still seems to be the number one choice.
PHX based
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 31):
So Boston still seems to be the number one choice.

Agreed. Sacramento would also be on the short list.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 27):
No again. It's considered a 'focus city' for them,

JetBlue
Major hubs in New York-JFK, Boston, Washing DC-Dulles, Fort Lauderdale, Long Beach, and Oakland.
www.jetblue.com/
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LipeGIG
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
In South America GIG is not a hub for any airline

Gol considers GIG as a kind of focus city as well as Tam, both nowadays use to keep grounded planes at GIG during weekends and holidays for contingency purposes. But you're right, and probably Rio is the largest city in the Americas without an airline Hub, also the largest city in the world without non-stop link to JFK and/or LHR.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
I fail to see how Webjet Brazil would have a hub in GIG. They don't even have enough airplanes to have a hub anywhere.

Under the concept of a Hub, GIG is WebJet's hub. They run more flights to POA and CWB than Gol and Tam together. But i agree that with only 2 planes nowadays, it's limited. Lets see if they really get more 3 planes during 2007.

Felipe
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panam330
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 33):
JetBlue
Major hubs in New York-JFK, Boston, Washing DC-Dulles, Fort Lauderdale, Long Beach, and Oakland.
www.jetblue.com/

Give it up- you're incorrect, and many have told you so. One poster above even sourced their 10K report. I think the company knows what to identify their cities as, and they have- 'key cities,' or 'focus cities,' and not hubs. Even the airline's website which you've sourced shows (in the route map legend, no less) that JFK, BOS, FLL, IAD, LGB and OAK are key cities, not hubs. So, once again, Boston is not a hub for jetBlue.
 
777STL
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 33):
JetBlue
Major hubs in New York-JFK, Boston, Washing DC-Dulles, Fort Lauderdale, Long Beach, and Oakland.
www.jetblue.com/

Their website says "key cities", not hubs, on the route map and their 10K aka as the Annual Report lists Boston and a few others as "focus cities". I can't think of a more authoritative source than their Annual Report.

So once again, Boston is not a hub for anyone.

[Edited 2007-02-21 17:45:37]
PHX based
 
777STL
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:50 am

Just for the sake of running this into the ground, here's the page in the 10K:

http://investor.jetblue.com/phoenix....BhZ2U9NDY3NTU1MSZkb2M9MSZudW09NA==

"We focus on serving markets that have had high average fares. We currently serve 50 destinations in 21 states, Puerto Rico, Mexico and the Caribbean, with 98% of our flights having as an origin or destination one of our four focus cities: New York, Los Angeles (Long Beach/Burbank), Boston or Washington, D.C."
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gatechae
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:56 am

San Diego has a higher population than Boston if we take city limits only
BOS- City:596k Metro:5.8 mil
SAN- City:1.2 mil Metro: 2.9 mil
 
Coronado990
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 28):
But you can't because JetBlue calls Boston a hub.. next choice?

Next choice would be SAN. Although Boston has a larger metro area, San Diego is technically a larger city. But what I would go by is that less than 1% of the SAN passenger count is connecting traffic. Almost 100% pure USDA choice O & D. I'd like to see if BOS could say that!
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
CXA330300
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 29):

Are Nagoya or Osaka considered hubs by anyone? I would also think there might be half dozen cities in China or India with population 1million+ that don't have hubs.

JAL and ANA both have hubs in KIX/ITM and NGO.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
incitatus
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 16):
Nonetheless, UA calls LAX a hub, thus, it is a hub.

There isn't a true definition of what a hub actually is, so we usually have to defer to what the airline refers to as a hub.

Why defer to the airline? Two airlines have exactly the same flight schedule at airport YYY. One calls it a hub and the other one does not. Does it mean one has a hub and the other one does not? It makes no sense to defer to the airline.

I don't let a company define what I regard as butter, car, airplane. Why would I let a company define what I regard as a hub?

Quoting 777STL (Reply 26):
Look at AA, BOS and LAX both have more mainline flights than does STL, yet STL is deemed a hub and BOS and LAX aren't. STL doesn't have any international routes either, yet BOS and LAX both do.

I can think of two reasons why STL may be called a hub by AA. One is political. The other one (legit) is that possibly a lot of AA passengers still use STL to connect.
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BigGSFO
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 41):
Why defer to the airline?

Because there is no industry standard, no "official" definition of a hub, with specific cirteria etc. In my opinion, a hub is nothing more than a marketing term used to identify a key city of operation in which a given airline schedules a high percentage of their flights. It may or may not consist of connecting banks. it's up to the airline to identify such operations as "hubs."

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 41):
I can think of two reasons why STL may be called a hub by AA. One is political. The other one (legit) is that possibly a lot of AA passengers still use STL to connect.

There is only one reason AA calls STL a hub: becuase they can. More to the point: whatever criteria AA uses to call an operation a hub, STL apparantly falls within it. It's by AA's definition, not the industry's and surely not anyone's opinion on A.net. It's not political, it's not based on the number of passengers; it's because they want to, and it's as simple as that. The same rationale applies to AA's operation at LAX: they have their own terminal, their own custom facilities, an Eagle operation, connections, yet AA does not consider LAX a hub. Why? Because they choose not to.
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):

you do realize that boston is about the size of baltimore, right? i don't think it has more than 600,000 people.

the largest city without a hub is most definitely in china. any chinese airnetters want to give a guess?
 
gigneil
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 41):
Why would I let a company define what I regard as a hub?

Because what you regard is irrelevant, really. A hub is what the airlines say is a hub, not what you say is a hub. If United says Los Angeles is a hub, which it clearly is, then it is.

I don't mean that in any sort of derogatory or mean manner, but it is true.

NS
 
xjet
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 43):
ou do realize that boston is about the size of baltimore, right? i don't think it has more than 600,000 people.

But, the metro area has about 5.8 million people.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 37):
with 98% of our flights having as an origin or destination one of our four focus cities: New York, Los Angeles (Long Beach/Burbank), Boston or Washington, D.C



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 41):
Why defer to the airline?

I kind of agree with this point. Can anyone really argue that B6 doesn't have a "hub" in JFK?? I have connected through JFK on B6 many times. I would say that BOS isn't a hub for B6. To have a hub, you have to have spokes. BOS has no real spokes for B6. It seems to be all O&D. Just an uneducated opinion.
 
incitatus
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 42):
Because there is no industry standard, no "official" definition of a hub, with specific cirteria etc. In my opinion, a hub is nothing more than a marketing term used to identify a key city of operation in which a given airline schedules a high percentage of their flights. It may or may not consist of connecting banks. it's up to the airline to identify such operations as "hubs."

Correct, there is no official definition, but you, like me, have your opinion - and you've chosen to let the airlines individually decide for you. That makes little sense when we compare the operation of multiple airlines.
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BigGSFO
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting XJET (Reply 45):
Can anyone really argue that B6 doesn't have a "hub" in JFK??

I would argue that JFK is not a hub for B6 because Jetblue doesn't refer to it as a hub. And guess what? I have con ected numerous times in PHX, OAK, LAS on WN and nobody can argue those are all significant operations for Southwest - but they are not WN hubs becuase Southwest doesn't refer them as hubs..

I apologize if my tone is coming across as disrepectful, but this topic can be argued ad naseum. The definition of a hub is really as simple as what the airline wishes to call it.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:27 am

what about STL is that really a tecnically a "hub" for american airlines???? oviously it was a huge hub for TWA but AA in STL is a joke now

maybe PIT should be on the list now that its a focus city for USair
 
777STL
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RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 41):
I can think of two reasons why STL may be called a hub by AA. One is political. The other one (legit) is that possibly a lot of AA passengers still use STL to connect.

Functionally, it's no more a hub than LAX or BOS is. One could argue that since LAX has a sizable Eagle operation, more mainline flights to more cities, and international service, it is more of a hub than STL. Hence why I pointed out the paradox.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 42):
Because there is no industry standard, no "official" definition of a hub, with specific cirteria etc. In my opinion, a hub is nothing more than a marketing term used to identify a key city of operation in which a given airline schedules a high percentage of their flights. It may or may not consist of connecting banks. it's up to the airline to identify such operations as "hubs."

I agree. Since there are no hard and fast rules for what is deemed a hub and what isn't and the fact that it's so ambigious, it's really determined by what the airline determines is a hub and what isn't.

Quoting XJET (Reply 45):
Can anyone really argue that B6 doesn't have a "hub" in JFK??

Not to sound like a broken record but, maybe because B6 themselves doesn't consider JFK a hub? Can you really argue that JFK is a hub versus a focus city as B6 classifies it? B6 is a point to point carrier ala WN, correct? By that definition doesn't that preclude any actual hubs?
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