LAXDESI
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Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:14 am

Paramount to add 15 new aircraft by 2009.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/P...w_aircraft/articleshow/1653975.cms

Quotes:
Paramount Airways, the country's only all business class airline, has chalked up plans to have a national footprint by end 2009, which will be done by acquiring 15 new aircraft in three years.

Speaking to TOI here, Paramount MD M Thiagarajan said the airline, which started operations a year ago, connects eight destinations through 50 flights daily. "We are now a South Indian airline with a dominant market share. Our share (in the sectors that we operate) is 24% as against Jet with 21%, Indian 20% and Air Deccan 18%. Our plan is to saturate the southern market by this year and then replicate the model in the West, North and East, in that order."

Paramount is the lone carrier in the HVC (high value carrier) segment, while most airlines follow a LCC (low cost carrier) or full service carrier (FSC) model. "We believe in pampering our passengers. This year we will connect Trichy, Mangalore and Calicut after which we will interconnect all the sectors that we currently operate in,"Thiagarajan said. On Wednesday, the airline announced one more flight between Madurai and Chennai, taking the total number of daily flights between the two destinations to four.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:19 am

Maharaja may continue as mascot for the post merger AI/IC combine.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/N..._as_mascot/articleshow/1653976.cms

Quotes:
While the new brand name after the merger of Indian and Air Indiais yet to be finalised, civil aviation minister Praful Patel said, the Maharaja could remain the mascot for the merged airline. The airline's full-cost domestic and international flights would get a similar look in the coming years.

Armed with the EGoM's approval for the merger, that is expected to cost around Rs 200 crore, civil aviation minister Praful Patel intends to approach the cabinet for the final go ahead by the end of next month. "The merger is not going to happen overnight but in a phased manner. There will be a one to two year transition period during which many issues will be sorted out,"Patel said. He also promised that there will be no layoffs and the 33,000 employees will remain on the rolls of the new entity.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:47 am

IA takes on low-cost carriers in fare war for flights out of Kolkata.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/C...n_fare_war/articleshow/1651124.cms

Quotes:
Indian Airlines is revving up for a dogfight in the skies. With all-time low fares in its arsenal, the national carrier is ready to fire salvos at not just legacy carriers, like Jet Airways and Air Sahara, but low-cost airlines like Air Deccan and SpiceJet as well. "We have slashed fares on several routes out of Kolkata. The new fares, applicable till September-end, are aimed at winning back passengers lost to competition," IA chief manager (marketing & sales) Nirbhik Rai Narang said.

The airline's new basic fares range from Rs 175 to Rs 625 on all flights to the north-east, except Dibrugarh. The number of discounted fare seats may range from 15 to 50, depending on the flight's load factor. The full fare on these sectors range from Rs 4,330 to Rs 7,540.

Fares have also been slashed on metro sectors. The lowest fare (tax & surcharge included) to Delhi is Rs 2,990. It will cost a passenger Rs 3,990 to travel to Mumbai, Rs 3,330 to Chennai and Rs 4,000 to Bangalore.

The new fares are part of the airline's dynamic pricing mechanism aimed at optimising passenger load. With a major capacity augmentation lined up (43-50 new aircraft are to be inducted in the fleet over the next three years), the Indian Airlines top brass have adopted a two-pronged strategy to fill up the seats --- expand services in domestic and international sectors and take on competition aggressively to grab market share in existing sectors.

"The move is aimed at increasing load factor from 70% to 90%," Narang said. That will automatically lead to a market share hike. At present, IA's market share in the east is 24% --- next only to Jet Airways at 27%. It offers nearly 1,900 seats out of Kolkata every week.

The basic return fare to Bangkok too, has been slashed. The lowest return fare ranges between Rs 4,500 to Rs 6,000. The tax and fuel surcharge applicable on this sector is Rs 4,000.
 
Nimish
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:23 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Paramount Airways, the country's only all business class airline, has chalked up plans to have a national footprint by end 2009, which will be done by acquiring 15 new aircraft in three years.

Anecdotally speaking, Paramount seems to be doing quite well for themselves (based on talking to folks who've recently flown with them). Most folks I've spoken to are happy to fly Paramount, love the service and the lack of a middle seat, love the fact that it's a Jet aircraft (rather than the turbo props), though the lack of frequencies on key routes (and the lack of a loyalty program) are areas they need to improve upon to get more of the business traveler.
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AKLDELNonstop
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 3):
Anecdotally speaking, Paramount seems to be doing quite well for themselves (based on talking to folks who've recently flown with them). Most folks I've spoken to are happy to fly Paramount, love the service and the lack of a middle seat, love the fact that it's a Jet aircraft (rather than the turbo props), though the lack of frequencies on key routes (and the lack of a loyalty program) are areas they need to improve upon to get more of the business traveler.

Given the profile that Paramount has created for itself, that of a business airline? Does it not see any potential in connecting the business sectors of the country, rather than focussing on South Indian routes. IMO they should try out BOM-DEL and DEL/BOM-BLR. Just because their DEL-MAA-CJB didn't work doesn't mean the above wont work either.
 
threekay76
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:21 pm

Tata - Changi to modernize MAA,CCU
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...a_airports/articleshow/1650521.cms

The Tata Group and Singapore's Changi Airports International have agreed to jointly bid for the modernisation works of airports at Chennai and Kolkata as also vie for similar projects in non-metro airports.
"We are partnering with the Tatas to get the contracts for modernisation work in Kolkata and Chennai airports", Changi's vice president (India) Ng Tim Peng told PTI in Delhi.
While the Tatas hold a controlling 51 per cent stake in the joint venture company, Changi would own the rest, he said, adding that "we are open to other partners with the right skills and expertise joining us in this venture".
No final decision has yet been taken by the Centre on the course of modernising these two metro airports, though the West Bengal government has said that Kolkata airport should be developed by the Airports Authority of India, while Tamil Nadu government favours the public-private partnership route.
This is the second time the Tatas are entering the aviation sector in the recent past. Earlier, the Indian conglomerate had tied up with the Singapore Airline to bid for flag carrier Air-India when it was proposed to be privatised, but the process failed to take off.
Incidentally, it was the Tatas who had floated the airline in 1932. Then known as Tata Airlines, it was nationalised by the government subsequently.
"At present, we are concentrating on Kolkata and Chennai (airports modernisation)", Peng said in reply to questions, but added that the JV firm planned to bid for city-side development of 35 non-metro airports as well.
 
Nimish
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:19 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 4):
Does it not see any potential in connecting the business sectors of the country, rather than focussing on South Indian routes. IMO they should try out BOM-DEL and DEL/BOM-BLR. Just because their DEL-MAA-CJB didn't work doesn't mean the above wont work either.

There was an article on today's papers, that they plan to buy another 15 a/c and continue to expand on regional routes. Their plan was to first complete the southern sectors (supposedly close to that goal), then do the same thing in the West, then target the north and the east.

They don't seem too focussed on "thicker" routes (aka longhaul - inter-metros), which are probably better handled by the 320/737 family. They're focussed on the best route for their E-Jets, which are more suited for the thin routes.
Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
 
sunnyb
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:05 pm

Check out this thread:
Air India-Indian Merger Approved! (by Sunnyb Feb 21 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
aarbee
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:28 am

Continuing from previous thread -

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 97):
Well, I doubt if US carriers look at routes based on prestige anymore. It's all about revenue and market share. Many routes that were perceived as being "prestigious" 10 years ago have been canned by many carriers (JFK-NRT comes to mind). That having been said, JFK-BOM is a lucrative route for those carriers that ply it, whether non-stop, direct or via transit hubs. The fact that US carriers have only recently begun non-stop flights to India is a function of aircraft type availability and the market warranting non-stop flights. Only recent 777 and A340 variants can fly the route non-stop and profitably

Indian carriers, of course, do look at the ability to fly to JFK and LHR as matters of prestige. Its always been Air India's crown jewel.

The issue was about prestigious route. I agree "US carriers look at routes based on prestige anymore". Lucrative YES, prestigious - I doubt it.

Agreed it is only recently that this US-IND route can be flown non-stop profitably only recently, but if you see the first 2 routes went to Delhi and not to BOM. DL went N/S to BOM almost a year after the AA/CO to Delhi.

Indian carriers prestigious routes is ONLY because of the traffic, not for prestige.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 102):

While you are both technically correct on this, bear in mind that Indian stocks are denominated in the Indian Rupee (which is inherently weak vis-a-vis the US$ or Euro) and when converted to US$ for comparison with other exchanges in the world, will always look very small in comparison...

I fully understand that. Never disputed that.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 102):

what is important is that the BSE is the primary stock exchange in India, one of the hottest economies in the world today, and does indeed play an important role in the Indian economy....the reason for this, as Jaysit pointed out, is that Mumbai is the financial center of India and thus a lot of important commercial activity is centered around the city....most of the top industrialists, industries, companies, banks, multinationals, etc. are all based in Mumbai....

I think it is fully understood by most of the people that Mumbai was, is and will be financial capital of India. The point here was BOM-JFK is not a prestigious route because of the presence of the stock exchanges.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 102):

It is no coincidence that officials from the NYSE, LSE, NASDAQ and several other important financial institutions from the West have been actively pursuing BSE officials and trying to forge links in different ways of late.....

The key here is off-late. Last 3-4 years.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 103):

Firstly, do you have any figures on the composition of stocks traded within a day on the BSE vis-a-vis other exchanges in the world?

No. Does that mean what I claimed is inappropriate?

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 103):

Secondly, are you implying that on other stock exchanges elsewhere in the world, all transactions taking place within a trading day are unique and do not involve multiple sale of a single stock within a day? That just happens to be the way exchanges work everywhere in the world......

I did not say that nor I implied it. I'm sorry if you misunderstood it.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 103):

As for market cap, as I said above, you are technically right....but that does not provide the true picture of the emerging importance of the BSE on the world financial stage....

Nor does the number of transactions. BSE (along with NSE - In general the Indian economy) is emerging not dominating. There is a lot of growth potential, but even in next few years it will not be top 5 in market cap.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

I never once said that the route is prestigious because of the presence of stock exchanges---i said it is a prestigious route and gave the stock exchanges as being an example.---

Well I beg to differ. Your statement in reply 76 did indicate that. Sorry mate.  Smile

My only point is that at this point of time, you are overestimating the importance of Indian economy (stock market) in the world playing ground to warrant a NYC-BOM link being prestigious.

Cheers,
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jaysit
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
Agreed it is only recently that this US-IND route can be flown non-stop profitably only recently, but if you see the first 2 routes went to Delhi and not to BOM. DL went N/S to BOM almost a year after the AA/CO to Delhi.

True.

And I think that eventually Delhi will outpace Mumbai in terms of traffic. However, I think that both CO and AA went for Delhi because a year ago Delhi's direct connectivity to the US was relatively poor. Air India flew 5 weekly services to JFK, twice weekly to Chicago and 3 weekly flights to LA. In contrast, Mumbai had 14 weekly flights to the NYC area, a daily to Chicago and a 4x weekly to LA, on AI alone. Plus, in terms of operational range, DEL was a safer bet than BOM. BOM at about 750 miles from DEL, really tests the operational range of the 777ERs.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
karan69
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
Agreed it is only recently that this US-IND route can be flown non-stop profitably only recently, but if you see the first 2 routes went to Delhi and not to BOM. DL went N/S to BOM almost a year after the AA/CO to Delhi.
Indian carriers prestigious routes is ONLY because of the traffic, not for prestige.

As Jay said DEL had far less connectvity in direct terms than BOM, also the range limitations of the 772ER causes it to be severely restricted, Almost every DL flight is delayed and at times they even make a technical stop at MAN.

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
Well I beg to differ. Your statement in reply 76 did indicate that. Sorry mate. Smile

Differ all you want mate, i know what i meat and i clarified it in one of the following replies.

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
My only point is that at this point of time, you are overestimating the importance of Indian economy (stock market) in the world playing ground to warrant a NYC-BOM link being prestigious.

Again you are making the assumption, [especially after the clarification i made] that i am basing my analysis from a BOM-NYC flight purely on stock markets, you tell me mate which has more business traffic and can fill a plane upfront year round BOM-NYC or BLR-SFO [it may be sufficient for profit but not as much as a BOM-NYC]

Also as far as the prestiege issue you keep picking on, i used a word to define a route--so big deed, but the route is prestigious.

BOM, NYC are the biggest financial markets of their repective countries.
Numerous biz companies have their centers in both cities.
BOM-NYC was the first route for AI, and have operated it since father time passed away...
NYC the name itself carries much more market value---i.e. it is self advertisement, and is a city even the security gaurds of a building will know, try asking SFO to the majority of the Indian people, ill be surprised if even 60% of the population of India knows it.
NYC is a safe market [tried and proven] and also they have their operational base set up there, rather than venture into SFO first [SFO will come later, and it will be India-SFO, who even knows if they do BLR-SFO--it is AI afterall]

Karan
 
pnqiad
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:20 am

Pvt airlines may get to fly to Gulf

Excerpt: "The merger of Air India and Indian may have been cleared for take-off, but whether the combined entity would continue to enjoy monopoly over the lucrative Middle-East sector has become a matter of scrutiny by the country's competition commission.

The commission, which is at present playing more of an advisory role pending passage of an amendment bill granting it more powers, could force open this market for private players, sources said on Thursday. ".....

Interesting to see this coming from the Competition Commision (frankly hadn't heard about any of its active roles till date...). They say it is as of yet only advisory - so it will be worth watching whether it has any real teeth....
 
mk777
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
NYC is a safe market [tried and proven] and also they have their operational base set up there, rather than venture into SFO first [SFO will come later, and it will be India-SFO, who even knows if they do BLR-SFO--it is AI afterall]

I agree that the BOM-NYC is an important route for AI. I am sure with the induction of their new fleet they might start a service to SFO, however I am also sure IT or 9W will tap this route, IT might start a non-stop BLR-SFO with the A345 and later with the A380 but 9W has already stated that it will fly BOM-PVG-SFO (don't know when??), so AI venturing into something new like SFO as of now will seem not so smart, but just like Karan said, with AI, you never know what to expect.

However I feel AI should announce a non-stop from DEL/BOM to IAD (washington Dulles) as this route might prove profitable to them since there is no such route available to the tons of Indians living in the DC metro area and it might fill up the front part of the plane if politicians and other business people travel with this option rather than the one-stop european routes that are the only option available so far from IAD to India, which to me personally does not appeal.

Lets see how QR does IAD-DOH commencing in June. AI should seriously look into this.
come fly with me
 
ammunition
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:00 am

Looks like AI are going to have amenity kits in economy soon, judging from their tenders section.

http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/RFQ_15241531.html
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LAXDESI
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:02 am

Jet Airways to start flights to NYC via Brussels in August, and start YYZ via Brussels by year end.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/..._in_August/articleshow/1654293.cms

Quotes:
India's largest private airline company Jet Airways will make a stopover in Brussels for its flights between Mumbai and New York in the US, according to local media reports. The service that is due to start this August will provide the first direct air link between Belgium and India, says INEP.

Next to the link Mumbai-Brussels-New York, Jet Airways also intends to start a connection between New Delhi and Toronto before 2007-end. This connection will also have a stop over in Brussels, "Flandernews.com" reported.

However, in the Jet Airways office in Brussels there was nobody to confirm the report as the management was in a meeting. The tourism minister from the Flanders region of Belgium, Geert Bourgeois, currently visiting India, met Indian tourism minister Ambika Soni and the management of Jet Airways in Mumbai.
 
kmsyd777
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:06 am

Oh please bring at least one of the indian carriers down under - now with AI IC merging I don't know whether IC's plans to launch MEL services will still go ahead! I'd love to see one of AI's or 9W's new birds here...
 
karan69
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:48 pm

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 12):
However I feel AI should announce a non-stop from DEL/BOM to IAD (washington Dulles) as this route might prove profitable to them since there is no such route available to the tons of Indians living in the DC metro area and it might fill up the front part of the plane if politicians and other business people travel with this option rather than the one-stop european routes that are the only option available so far from IAD to India, which to me personally does not appeal.



Quoting Mk777 (Reply 12):
Lets see how QR does IAD-DOH commencing in June. AI should seriously look into this.

Agree IAD should be looked at seriously, but i am not sure if it should be a non-stop, maybe launch it via FRA or LHR first to see how it performs.
i agree about the huge desi population in the metro area. but they are the kind of people that fly once a year and not on a regular bases. so would not make sense for a non-stop service, however if QR does well on IAD-DOH especially with Indian Originating pax AI should launch a non-stop DEL-IAD service.

Also i beleive, that if ORD gets a DEL non-stop [which seems highly likely to be the second non-stop to US with NYC-BOM getting the first one] the current flight via LHR/FRA will cease to exist and they could use those slots to offer IAD with the 337ERs

Karan
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:11 pm

The DC-Baltimore area is home to about 175,000 persons of Indian origin. Plus, we have a huge computer and IT industry in Virginia, Govt agencies, the World Bank, IMF, every NGO under the sun, the NIH, growing biotech, etc. Does this warrant non-stops from IAD to India? I don't know. Remember that Star Alliance is big in the DC area with United hubbing at IAD and USAirways at DCA. This means that many of us have United and USAirways FF miles. A lot of people I know who fly to India will stick with Star Alliance, flying United or Lufthansa to Frankfurt and connect to Lufthansa from there. Is it optimal? No. But its a good 20,000+ miles added to your account, and that's in Y. Fly J, and you get 30,000, F and you get 40,000. Numbers like that will keep people glued to UA/LH.

For those who don't care about FF miles, we have many of the European majors with multiple daily flights - LH, AF and BA, that provide great connections to India. Delta has good connectivity to its Mumbai nonstop, as do CO and AA. OS and KL/NW also carry a fair amount of traffic to India. I usually take BA when I fly to India (ranges between twice annually to 5 times a year). BA's FF program stinks, but when you have enough miles, it gets better.
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manny
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:44 pm

Continued from the previous thread.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 76):

JFK it is afterall one of the most prestigious route---from BSE to NYSE



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

I never once said that the route is prestigious because of the presence of stock exchanges---i said it is a prestigious route and gave the stock exchanges as being an example.---

What should come first prestige or profitability. Prestige should not be the basis of business decisions. Sorry. It should be about where are they going to get more revenue & profits.
The stock exchange example, that was bad. I mean at best it might be a far fetched reason. But not the reason to start a nonstop flight.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 97):

Consequently, this city pair also accounts for the most premium traffic between India and the US. CO/AA's absence from this market is probably because this market is adequately served at present by Air India, Delta, Northwest/KLM, the major European carriers (BA, LH, AF, LX, AZ, OS, VS) and Emirates.

And one of the other reasons why starting a nonstop service between JFK-BOM makes no sense. This market has too just many options for a traveler.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 97):

Well, I doubt if US carriers look at routes based on prestige anymore. It's all about revenue and market share.

Thats right. They are doing the right thing. That should be basis of business decision making revenue, marketshare & profits. A route should not be flown b/c its prestigious.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

First of all DL hub at JFK is not as big as the one at ATL, but i get your point, but one can also make that claim for AI.....



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

It may be a joke to you or anyone mate, but what is a hub then for AI, BOM may not be the most convienient which is what i clearly mentioned above, but it is a hub, and it is much closer than you think, land in from JFK at DLs flight to BOM and trying making a connection , you will see there is no difference.---and i never debated whether or not JFK is better than BOM as a hub

But DL is so far better positioned to get feeder traffic from its origin compared to AI. That's what matters. For AI this is going to be for the most part a point to point service. Inspite of the recently annouced merger.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 82):

the profile of pax travelling between India and US have a far greater majority of India Originating passengers.



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

Its a known fact mate, also see some of the posts in AC stopping DEL services thread

Dude, you made the claim so prove it. If you have any hard data/links let us know.  Smile
But if you are basing it on some post on the thread for AC withdrawal, thats a whole different story b/c the India-Canada market is whole lot different from India-US market.
If i am missing something from that thread let me know.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

To give you an idea, as you clearly dont seem to understand the point i am trying to make very clearly about the risks involved in entering a new market, i am quoting someone who has far better experience and knowledge in airline market dynamics than the two of us.

Quoting InitRef (Reply 85):
or business travellers the AI nonstop should command a premium or at least be the obvious choice if the fare is the same as one-stoppers on other carriers. However, the Citi/Goldman/JPMChase/GE people will be getting tremendous discounts from their preferred carriers (e/g LH gives GE corp travel J class seats for the price of a $2k Y fare). You can bet that the AI flights won't even appear on the corp booking sites for most Fortune 500 in the US.

If i remember right that post refers to the inaptness of AI sales staff in accumulating corporate sales. And the example given is the New York market. And guess where AI is flying nonstop to ?  Big grin
This is a BIG reason why AI should have flown nonstop SFO-BLR before JFK-BOM. I am repeating this again, they would have had a UNIQUE product. Its easier to sell a unique product than a product where there are comptetitiors. The SFO-BLR flight would have sold inspite of AI's inaptness.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

I am sure the AI mgmt has all their statistics in place, and since they have been deploying a 744 for the past 16 years on that route via LHR, they are well aware of how many pax travel from BOM all the way to JFK, and hence have decided to give a non-stop a go as compared to a new untried market of SFO.

Untried or ripe of the picking ?. They have not flown this route to SFO b/c there was no demand but b/c they did not have A/C to do the nonstop flight from BLR. And not they do!!!
I mean this a really really wimpy decision and only a government official could make this decision.
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:11 pm

Quoting Manny (Reply 18):
This is a BIG reason why AI should have flown nonstop SFO-BLR before JFK-BOM.

Perhaps they will in due course.

Remember its not just about a unique product. The 777LR is a new type in AI's fleet, AI's engineering base is in BOM, its senior pilots and crew are all Mumbai or Delhi based with experience in plying the India-New York routes, it has seasoned staff in Mumbai and New York who know the workings of the airline. However, an ultra long range nonstop is a new concept for AI and with it come new logistical issues. Establishing a new base for 777LRs in BLR, plus staffing a new office in SFO, and dealing with the vagaries of a new aircraft type and a new ultra long range route would be pushing any organizations resources. Plus, when airlines introduce a new aircraft type, its usually put on a known route first. I suspect that the 777LRs will probably do the India-LHR-JFK routes at first to allow pilots to familiarize with the aircraft, then do the India-NYC nonstops, before embarking on a BLR-SFO nonstop.

Plus, AI may just shift the daily JFK 744 flights via London to Delhi, and replace this flight from BOM with the daily nonstop. There are lots of variables here. There is a reason why AI's JFK flights go via DEL - Queens which is close to JFK is home to lots of North Indians and AI 101 usually leaves Mumbai about a third full, filling up in DEL. Flying a smaller aircraft type nonstop to JFK, and focusing on prremium traffic on this route may allow the airline to more adeptly serve the BOM-JFK market while increasing its presence in DEL.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
manny
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:13 pm

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
BOM-NYC was the first route for AI, and have operated it since father time passed away...

UA operated LHR-JFK too. Multiple flights. Now they are out.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
NYC the name itself carries much more market value---i.e. it is self advertisement, and is a city even the security gaurds of a building will know

But security guards of a building will not fly nonstop to NYC for business or pleasure.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
try asking SFO to the majority of the Indian people, ill be surprised if even 60% of the population of India knows it.

Even if that's true,it does not matter.
What matters is how many people who actually are going to utilize the service to SFO know about it. I am sure the number there is 100%.  Wink

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
NYC is a safe market [tried and proven] and also they have their operational base set up there, rather than venture into SFO first

Someday they have to venture out. Leave the warm cozy nest of safety. Why now now ? Its not a big deal setting up a new destination with brand new A/C. A ton of airlines do it.
I mean how is 9W starting a service via BRU-EWR(places where they do not have an operational base) with brand new A/C they know nothing about.
 
manny
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:35 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
Remember its not just about a unique product.

In a market ripe for picking, its is a very huge factor. I never said its the only factor.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
The 777LR is a new type in AI's fleet, AI's engineering base is in BOM, its senior pilots and crew are all Mumbai or Delhi based with experience in plying the India-New York routes, it has seasoned staff in Mumbai and New York who know the workings of the airline. However, an ultra long range nonstop is a new concept for AI and with it come new logistical issues. Establishing a new base for 777LRs in BLR, plus staffing a new office in SFO, and dealing with the vagaries of a new aircraft type and a new ultra long range route would be pushing any organizations resources.

All this says is they have not done their homework. This is total lack of planning. These 772LR's did not crop up from thin air. It was known when they were coming. Setting up a base is work, and they have to do all of this work at at some point of time. Why not in time for the first 772LRs ?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
Plus, when airlines introduce a new aircraft type, its usually put on a known route first. I suspect that the 777LRs will probably do the India-LHR-JFK routes at first to allow pilots to familiarize with the aircraft, then do the India-NYC nonstops, before embarking on a BLR-SFO nonstop.

I have agreed with that. In the previous thread i agreed with someone's observation( I think it was Karan) that the 772LR could replace the 767 flown on the LHR route for sometime. But once we are ready to start a ULH it should have been on the SFO-BLR route.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
There is a reason why AI's JFK flights go via DEL - Queens which is close to JFK is home to lots of North Indians

Having lived in NYC i am aware of that.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
AI 101 usually leaves Mumbai about a third full, filling up in DEL. Flying a smaller aircraft type nonstop to JFK, and focusing on prremium traffic on this route may allow the airline to more adeptly serve the BOM-JFK market while increasing its presence in DEL.

But atleast AI serves the market with its own metal. They do not serve the BLR and SFO market at all.
This flight leaves Mumbai a third full only. Thats alarming. I do not know the exact configurations but generally a third full 747 could hardly fill up a 767 flight. With a stop at LHR means there is some traffic for LHR as well. And they are starting a nonstop service with a 772LR. Thats too many people too attract in a market where there are alternative choices.
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:44 pm

Quoting Manny (Reply 20):
Its not a big deal setting up a new destination with brand new A/C. A ton of airlines do it.
I mean how is 9W starting a service via BRU-EWR(places where they do not have an operational base) with brand new A/C they know nothing about.

BLR-SFO would create logistical issues that would have to be worked out after AI acquires the LR, given that the route is a transpolar one and one that AI has no experience with, and one that the 777LR has never done as yet in commercial service. You can't compare BRU-EWR with BLR-SFO. BRU is merely a transit stop whereas AI would have to establish maintenance and staffing at BLR for the 2-3 777LRs needed for a daily nonstop. A ton of airlines do not acquire a new aircraft type and fly it nonstop for 18 hours to brand new destinations. The only airline I can think of that did that is TG with its JFK A345 nonstop service. But againTG were operating this flight out of its base.

Yes, there is a certain symbolism in being the first to fly BLR-SFO (all that silicon valley of India to Silicon Valley stuff), but there's more to operations than just rolling the plane to the gate, filling it up and saying "go."

Btw, does anyone know how long a BLR-SFO flight would be in either direction?
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cricket
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:25 pm

I just have my two cents to add in on the Bombay - New York sector. I may be a Delhi-ite (though I have lived in Bombay) and I can understand what people might think about other cities in the US getting service, but Mumbai, no matter how ramshackle the infrastructure is still India's financial hub and will remain India's financial hub. It is the city where India's central bank is located as well as the country's two largest indices and the NSE is definately in the world's top 20 exchanges in terms of daily volume. Mumbai is also the home to most of India's largest corporations and banks with Public and Private. I don't need to explain anything about New York.
The case for a NYC-Mumbai direct flight is so bleeping obvious!
The second service for the Long Range planes is likely to be a West Coast direct service from DEL (or it still could be BOM), most likely SFO.
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
Nimish
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:44 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
Btw, does anyone know how long a BLR-SFO flight would be in either direction?

BLR-SFO - 8718 miles
BKK-LAX - 8270 miles (about 450 miles off)

Scheduled time for BKK-LAX on the 345 is 17:10 flying west, and 14:30 flying east. I would assume the timing would be very similar for BLR-SFO as well, since the 450 miles might be offset by the 772LRs slightly higher speed.
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Nimish
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting Manny (Reply 21):
But once we are ready to start a ULH it should have been on the SFO-BLR route.

I for one would hate it if AI started this as their first route, imagine having to deal with AI and their ground staff on this tiring route.. Much prefer to wait for IT to start this route, now that's an airline I wouldn't mind spending 17 hours on  Smile

In addition, AI will face some challenges in getting feed from SFO until they firm up and join the *A. There's a huge United/*A fan following in SFO who might continue to prefer the Bangalore Express on LH!

FWIW, AI already serve the BLR-SFO market through code shares on SQ flights on BLR-SIN-ICN / HKG-SFO.
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uzzzer
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:02 pm

Hello, everyone!

Just checking: Ukrainian authorities are saying that Air India / India are seriously looking at Antonov-148 regional jet and Antonov-140 turboprop for Indian Government (border patrols).

Do Indian sources prove that?
 
mk777
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
Numbers like that will keep people glued to UA/LH.

Wasn't AI planning to join *A??? If they do then IAD would be a good choice for them.

And I am sure if AI or any other Indian carrier starts the route to IAD (hopefully non-stop or even with a fuel stop), many people will travel on them as they will feel more secure in terms of language and not having to transit through European airports. Just my personal take on it.
come fly with me
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
The key here is off-late. Last 3-4 years.

We ARE all living in the year 2007, right?....so key or no key, the current situation is what any one would be talking about....don't get your point at all....

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
No. Does that mean what I claimed is inappropriate?

You catch on fast Big grin

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
I did not say that nor I implied it. I'm sorry if you misunderstood it.

Thanks for that....few people on this forum apologise even when they need to, and in this case you don't really need to...it's just a healthy exchange of opinions....thanks anyway....

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
My only point is that at this point of time, you are overestimating the importance of Indian economy (stock market) in the world playing ground to warrant a NYC-BOM link being prestigious.

Well Aarbee, for some reason it comes across as though you are trying to run down the importance of the Indian market and economy....maybe that's why you're getting all these responses from me and others.....just take a look at whats happening in worldwide trade, business and power equations...you will get the picture....if you choose to stick to definitions like 'prestigious', well, that can be argued till we're blue in the face....point is, no one can ignore the Indian market today....if AC's (and maybe AA's) of the world choose to pull out in the short term, for reasons of their own, you can see other blue chip airlines tripping over themselves to increase services to India....now if that doesn't fit the 'prestige' bill, call it something else, but you can't deny what's happening....  smile 
 
Nimish
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting Uzzzer (Reply 26):
Just checking: Ukrainian authorities are saying that Air India / India are seriously looking at Antonov-148 regional jet and Antonov-140 turboprop for Indian Government (border patrols).

Not heard that discussed at all - you can also post on http://www.airliners-india.net for a wider audience.

Kind of OT - but trying to learn more about this series of a/c - Are the AN-148/140 technically superior or cheaper or available faster? Why would or wouldn't any customer choose these 2 a/c over their competitors?
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cricket
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting Uzzzer (Reply 26):
Just checking: Ukrainian authorities are saying that Air India / India are seriously looking at Antonov-148 regional jet and Antonov-140 turboprop for Indian Government (border patrols).

Maybe to replace some of the Coast Guard Do-228 and sub out some of the An-32's? Just conjecturing.
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
uzzzer
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 29):
Not heard that discussed at all - you can also post on http://www.airliners-india.net for a wider audience.

Thanks! I'll look through!

Quoting Nimish (Reply 29):
Are the AN-148/140 technically superior or cheaper or available faster? Why would or wouldn't any customer choose these 2 a/c over their competitors?

1. Cheaper to buy, same money to maintain
2. May be used at airports with poor infrastructure, even ground rwys
3. Airframe lifetime is longer - its designed that way

Sorry for going OT

[Edited 2007-02-23 14:53:27]
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 27):
Wasn't AI planning to join *A??? If they do then IAD would be a good choice for them.

And I am sure if AI or any other Indian carrier starts the route to IAD (hopefully non-stop or even with a fuel stop), many people will travel on them as they will feel more secure in terms of language and not having to transit through European airports. Just my personal take on it.

Yes, IAD would be an excellent destination for AI if it teamed up with *A. Otherwise they'll have to rely on the desi bucket shops and advertisements in the "India Spice and Appliances Bazaar" venues.
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LAXDESI
Topic Author
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:53 am

Kingfisher to fly new routes, add more flights.
http://samachar.com/showurl.php?rurl...7+14%3A19%3A03+GMT&keyword=ww_home

Quotes:
Mumbai: Vijay Mallya-promoted Kingfisher Airlines plans to launch more flights on new routes in its summer schedule, beginning March besides introducing services connecting Tier-II cities in the western and southern regions.

"We will increase the number of flights on our trunk routes like Mumbai-Delhi, Mumbai-Bangalore, and Mumbai-Kolkata from March this year in our new summer schedules," Kingfisher Airlines general manager (sales) Manoj Chacko told PTI. The airline, which has a fleet of 25 aircraft, will also fly two daily flights connecting Delhi-Chennai, he added.

Currently, Kingfisher has seven Mumbai-Delhi flights daily, to which a couple of more would be added, while the Mumbai-Bangalore sector, which currently has five services daily, will be increased to six, he said.

The airline was also looking to start services from Mumbai to Baroda, Jamnagar, Bhuj, Indore and Nagpur. It will also start services on the Bangalore-Lakshwadeep, Chennai-Madurai, Chennai-Trichy and Chennai-Coimbatore routes, thereby connecting all important cities around Chennai, said Chacko.

The summer schedule begins on March 26 and will continue till October.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:15 am

Does anyone know when ITs COK-AGX will commence?

Thanks,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
aarbee
Posts: 207
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
Differ all you want mate, i know what i meat and i clarified it in one of the following replies.



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
Also as far as the prestiege issue you keep picking on, i used a word to define a route--so big deed, but the route is prestigious.

Sorry dude, I did not for once see between reply 76 and 104 that it is not a prestigious. I'm not picking on it, that was my only point when I first made, but then I see a volley of replies trying to support the your point:

  • The stock exchange is one of the biggest
  • The stock exchange was just an example
  • Value of rupee vis-a-vis USD
  • Delhi has less connectivity
  • Appropriate planes were not there

As I said above, lucrative YES, prestigious - I doubt it. This is definitely one of the money making route. This is not just because of financial markets. Till very recently, the only international access in to India was through BOM/DEL primarily.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):

Again you are making the assumption, [especially after the clarification i made] that i am basing my analysis from a BOM-NYC flight purely on stock markets, you tell me mate which has more business traffic and can fill a plane upfront year round BOM-NYC or BLR-SFO [it may be sufficient for profit but not as much as a BOM-NYC]

Again, I never questioned whether this is lucrative/money making route, nor do I compare it with the BLR-SFO or even a BOM-SFO traffic. If there is a matter of having only 1 route as opposed to other, it would be definitely BOM-NYC.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 28):
-Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):-
The key here is off-late. Last 3-4 years.-End Quote Aarbee (Reply 8):-

We ARE all living in the year 2007, right?....so key or no key, the current situation is what any one would be talking about....don't get your point at all....

Oh! so are we claiming the route's prestige in 2007. You can keep on your "key or no key" stance and argue in your favor all you want.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 28):
You catch on fast Big grin

I did not say I agree with you. Just because there are no figures to quote for "composition of stocks traded within a day on the BSE vis-a-vis other exchanges in the world", does not make it the one of the most important exchange of the world.

Taking your approach ...

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 103):
It is no coincidence that officials from the NYSE, LSE, NASDAQ and several other important financial institutions from the West have been actively pursuing BSE officials and trying to forge links in different ways of late.....

Do you have any figures to back that? How many NYSE/LSE/NASDAQ, etc. officials pursued BSE officials in last year and the years before that? and what percent of that it would be compared to other world markets?

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 28):
Thanks for that....few people on this forum apologise even when they need to, and in this case you don't really need to...it's just a healthy exchange of opinions....thanks anyway....

Let me make it clear. I did not apologize to you. Your statement i reply 103 - "Secondly, are you implying that on other stock exchanges elsewhere in the world, all transactions taking place within a trading day are unique and do not involve multiple sale of a single stock within a day? That just happens to be the way exchanges work everywhere in the world......". I never implied that, nor did I say that. I just said I feel sorry for you that you inferred that there is no multiple sale of single stock within a day.

Extending you own argument in Taking your statement in reply 102 "Indian stocks are denominated in the Indian Rupee (which is inherently weak vis-a-vis the US$ or Euro) and when converted to US$ for comparison with other exchanges in the world, ". There could be one of the reasons why the total value of the transactions are high in Indian bourses.

Having said that, It does not mean I won't ever apologize for anything which I said or I did, I feel is wrong.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 28):
Well Aarbee, for some reason it comes across as though you are trying to run down the importance of the Indian market and economy....maybe that's why you're getting all these responses from me and others.....just take a look at whats happening in worldwide trade, business and power equations...you will get the picture....if you choose to stick to definitions like 'prestigious', well, that can be argued till we're blue in the face....point is, no one can ignore the Indian market today....if AC's (and maybe AA's) of the world choose to pull out in the short term, for reasons of their own, you can see other blue chip airlines tripping over themselves to increase services to India....now if that doesn't fit the 'prestige' bill, call it something else, but you can't deny what's happening...

That is your opinion that I'm trying to run down the importance of Indian market and economy.

It is not established yet in the world playing field. It is not one of the most significant emerging economy either. Indian economy is emerging at the best. It will take some time, but it will be there. There is a lot of room to grow.

If AC's and AA's decide to pull out it's their problem, I never made that argument so please, do not drag it into here.

Cheers,  Big grin
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aarbee
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
AI's engineering base is in BOM, its senior pilots and crew are all Mumbai or Delhi based with experience in plying the India-New York routes, it has seasoned staff in Mumbai and New York who know the workings of the airline

That is one of the main reasons why AMD/HYD/BLR have European/American flights with BOM in equation.

I won't be surprised if the AMD-BOM-CDG-EWR flight can be supported by just Gujarat traffic 4X/5X week. (Or the BOM-AMD-LHR 2X/3X a week). Big grin

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 9):
And I think that eventually Delhi will outpace Mumbai in terms of traffic.

Do you really think so? It would be interesting. I know DEL's business traffic is increasing, but in terms of AI's BOM hub there is lot of non-business traffic from major parts of India.
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Gr8Circle
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 35):
Oh! so are we claiming the route's prestige in 2007.

You're the one stuck onto the 'prestige' word...I have not used it anywhere....

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 35):
Just because there are no figures to quote for "composition of stocks traded within a day on the BSE vis-a-vis other exchanges in the world", does not make it the one of the most important exchange of the world.

I never said that the BSE is "one of the most important exchanges of the world"....why are you so bent on pushing words into other people's mouths?

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 35):
Do you have any figures to back that? How many NYSE/LSE/NASDAQ, etc. officials pursued BSE officials in last year and the years before that? and what percent of that it would be compared to other world markets?

No I have no figures to back that and don't need them either....I just read the newspapers and sites and notice the pics of grinning visiting officials at meetings in various places in India....I am not interested in comparing with other countries, just pointing out trends about India...so don't drag me into comparisons....

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 35):
Let me make it clear. I did not apologize to you. Your statement i reply 103 - "Secondly, are you implying that on other stock exchanges elsewhere in the world, all transactions taking place within a trading day are unique and do not involve multiple sale of a single stock within a day? That just happens to be the way exchanges work everywhere in the world......". I never implied that, nor did I say that. I just said I feel sorry for you that you inferred that there is no multiple sale of single stock within a day.

You're a difficult one to convince...I was just trying to break the ice.....okay, if that's the way you want to look at it...fine...

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 35):
It is not established yet in the world playing field. It is not one of the most significant emerging economy either. Indian economy is emerging at the best. It will take some time, but it will be there. There is a lot of room to grow.

What's your problem with India by the way? You seem to be going to great lengths to run down the image....care to clarify your issues?
 
manny
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
Again you are making the assumption, [especially after the clarification i made] that i am basing my analysis from a BOM-NYC flight purely on stock markets, you tell me mate which has more business traffic and can fill a plane upfront year round BOM-NYC or BLR-SFO [it may be sufficient for profit but not as much as a BOM-NYC]

You kidding me! SFO-BLR would be much more profitable. I have stated the reasons already so i am not going to repeat them again.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 25):
In addition, AI will face some challenges in getting feed from SFO until they firm up and join the *A. There's a huge United/*A fan following in SFO who might continue to prefer the Bangalore Express on LH!

Thats true for JFK as well. Who gets them the feed for the JFK route ?
People flying AI can get miles on the LH Miles&More program. So people flying the LH on the SF-FRA-BLR route right now can continue to get miles on their frequent flier programs.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
BLR-SFO would create logistical issues that would have to be worked out after AI acquires the LR, given that the route is a transpolar one and one that AI has no experience with, and one that the 777LR has never done as yet in commercial service.

Even the NYC-BOM route is transpolar one. And it has never been flown with the 772LR. So the same logistical issues would apply to this route.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
Yes, there is a certain symbolism in being the first to fly BLR-SFO (all that silicon valley of India to Silicon Valley stuff)

I never said they should fly a route for symbolism or for that matter prestige.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
Btw, does anyone know how long a BLR-SFO flight would be in either direction?

According to the Great Circle Mapper:
LAX-SIN : 8770 miles
SFO-BLR :8718 miles.

SQ's, current scheduled flying times
LAX-SIN : 18h 10m
SIN-LAX : 15h 30m.

Gives one a good ballpark idea.
 
aarbee
Posts: 207
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RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 37):

You're the one stuck onto the 'prestige' word...I have not used it anywhere....

My whole point was about it and you were arguing against it.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 37):
I never said that the BSE is "one of the most important exchanges of the world"....why are you so bent on pushing words into other people's mouths?

I'm not putting words in other's mouth. You've been touting BSE as important/significant exchanges in the world, not me. As for putting words in other people's mouth, I've rather seem it on your side, for e.g. "all transactions taking place within a trading day are unique and do not involve multiple sale of a single stock within a day", "if AC's (and maybe AA's) of the world choose to pull out in the short term,".

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 37):
No I have no figures to back that and don't need them either....I just read the newspapers and sites and notice the pics of grinning visiting officials at meetings in various places in India....I am not interested in comparing with other countries, just pointing out trends about India...so don't drag me into comparisons....

Exactly!!! So in my reference to putting significance to market cap as opposed to transaction value, you wanted the figures. So if there are no figures that does mean otherwise. W.R.T. "not interested in comparing with other countries" , you were the one who wanted to the figures to compare BSE vis-a-vis other exchanges in the world.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 37):
You're a difficult one to convince...I was just trying to break the ice.....okay, if that's the way you want to look at it...fine...

I did not see U doing that. (In fact quite opposite)

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 37):
What's your problem with India by the way? You seem to be going to great lengths to run down the image....care to clarify your issues?

My problem, NONE (If ever there was I would not be discussing with you). Where do you see me saying nasty things about India? (another example of putting words in mouth). Where do you see me maligning India? Just because the India you see is different from the India I see and do not agree to your point of view, does not mean I'm "going to great lengths to run down the image"

What issues do U want me to clarify?

Cheers!!! Big grin
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jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 35):
It is not established yet in the world playing field. It is not one of the most significant emerging economy either.

Well, nothing is significant in comparison to China! And the term "significant" is open to a million interpretations.

Quoting Manny (Reply 38):
Even the NYC-BOM route is transpolar one. And it has never been flown with the 772LR. So the same logistical issues would apply to this route.

It isn't.

Delta currently fly their 777s Central Asia - Russia- Finland, and down to JFK.

What do you not get about the pure and simple fact that all the above carriers fly their ultra long range flights from their hubs/technical base? If AI were to start a daily BLR-SFO flight with a brand new aircraft type, they'd have to create a new BLR technical and HR base there. You don't do that with a brand new aircraft type, especially when there is a learning curve involved wrt all aspects - operations, staffing, maintenance, etc., etc. Once some of these issues are sorted out, 777s can be based in BLR with a lean tech. base working in conjunction with Mumbai.

Incidentally, Air France is now going daily to BLR too. That makes 3 daily European operations out of BLR - BA, LH and AF. Sure as hell beats hangign out for hours at the shopping mall that is Changi!
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2387
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 39):
I've rather seem it on your side, for e.g. "all transactions taking place within a trading day are unique and do not involve multiple sale of a single stock within a day", "if AC's (and maybe AA's) of the world choose to pull out in the short term,".

How does that amount to "putting words in others mouths"? The AC thing is for real, not my imagination....AA was mentioned in a news article which has been discussed at length on another thread.....

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 39):
You've been touting BSE as important/significant exchanges in the world, not me. As for putting words in other people's mouth

You're wrong again buddy....it was someone else who started the exchange issue....not me.....and I repeat once more, nowhere have I said that BSE is one of the most important or significant exchange in the world.....I was highlighting it's importance within India....you're the one who'se jumping to comparisons with other exchanges in the world......

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 39):
Where do you see me saying nasty things about India?

Where do you see me using the word "nasty".....back to putting words in my mouth, you are.... 

Well, have a great weekend!!

[Edited 2007-02-23 21:00:57]
 
Joelatbsl
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:51 pm

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:06 am

AC879 Delhi - Zurich was heavily delayed twice in a row now, the second time being the flight of 24th Feb. Does anyone know why that ocurred? Fog in Delhi or did the a/c go tech?

Thx for an answer

JOEL
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2387
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting Joelatbsl (Reply 42):
Fog in Delhi or did the a/c go tech?

It's Feb end now....does the fog problem in Delhi persist so long....I thought it was restricted to Dec-Jan...maybe I'm wrong....
 
karan69
Posts: 2699
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:57 pm

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting Manny (Reply 18):
The stock exchange example, that was bad. I mean at best it might be a far fetched reason. But not the reason to start a nonstop flight.

The points been clarified time and time again not only by me but also other members in the forum, so either you too arrogant or lazy to read it or you just dont have anything to post so you keep bringing this up again., lets see if you bring it up one more time then it will definitly prove one thing or the other or both.

Even Aarbee got what i was hinting at mate when he read the posts


Quoting Manny (Reply 18):
What should come first prestige or profitability. Prestige should not be the basis of business decisions. Sorry. It should be about where are they going to get more revenue & profits.

Obviously Profit, where did i say prestiege should be an issue in selecting a route---but are you indirectly implying that the BOM-NYC market wont warrant profitability.??

Quoting Manny (Reply 18):
Dude, you made the claim so prove it. If you have any hard data/links let us know.

Like i said if you can prove me wrong go ahead, i am still to hear from other members if what i said in that regard is wrong.

Quoting Manny (Reply 18):
They have not flown this route to SFO b/c there was no demand but b/c they did not have A/C to do the nonstop flight from BLR. And not they do!!!

Not really, AI's forray into the US markets began in this manner---JFK--ORD---EWR---LAX,[EWR LAX came after 2003] so they could have started SFO before LAX they obviously chose against it, they will start SFO but not on your convinience they willl do it on theirs ,no matter how UNIQUE they find the market dynamics to be.

Quoting Manny (Reply 18):
mean this a really really wimpy decision and only a government official could make this decision.

welcome to Air India

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
The 777LR is a new type in AI's fleet, AI's engineering base is in BOM, its senior pilots and crew are all Mumbai or Delhi based with experience in plying the India-New York routes, it has seasoned staff in Mumbai and New York who know the workings of the airline. However, an ultra long range nonstop is a new concept for AI and with it come new logistical issues. Establishing a new base for 777LRs in BLR, plus staffing a new office in SFO, and dealing with the vagaries of a new aircraft type and a new ultra long range route would be pushing any organizations resources. Plus, when airlines introduce a new aircraft type, its usually put on a known route first. I suspect that the 777LRs will probably do the India-LHR-JFK routes at first to allow pilots to familiarize with the aircraft, then do the India-NYC nonstops, before embarking on a BLR-SFO nonstop.



Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
BLR-SFO would create logistical issues that would have to be worked out after AI acquires the LR, given that the route is a transpolar one and one that AI has no experience with, and one that the 777LR has never done as yet in commercial service. You can't compare BRU-EWR with BLR-SFO. BRU is merely a transit stop whereas AI would have to establish maintenance and staffing at BLR for the 2-3 777LRs needed for a daily nonstop. A ton of airlines do not acquire a new aircraft type and fly it nonstop for 18 hours to brand new destinations. The only airline I can think of that did that is TG with its JFK A345 nonstop service. But againTG were operating this flight out of its base.



Quoting Jaysit (Reply 40):
f AI were to start a daily BLR-SFO flight with a brand new aircraft type, they'd have to create a new BLR technical and HR base there. You don't do that with a brand new aircraft type, especially when there is a learning curve involved wrt all aspects - operations, staffing, maintenance, etc., etc



Quoting Cricket (Reply 23):
but Mumbai, no matter how ramshackle the infrastructure is still India's financial hub and will remain India's financial hub. It is the city where India's central bank is located as well as the country's two largest indices and the NSE is definately in the world's top 20 exchanges in terms of daily volume. Mumbai is also the home to most of India's largest corporations and banks with Public and Private. I don't need to explain anything about New York.
The case for a NYC-Mumbai direct flight is so bleeping obvious!

BIngo....i have said these a couple of times in the previous thread , if only Manny would have read it carefully and understood with a clear mind what goes into running an airline and starting a new route, rather than be a typical Airliners.net armchair ceo--
Me and Jay and some others have already said time and time again what would go in for route planning,

Quoting Nimish (Reply 25):
for one would hate it if AI started this as their first route, imagine having to deal with AI and their ground staff on this tiring route.. Much prefer to wait for IT to start this route, now that's an airline I wouldn't mind spending 17 hours on

I think we would all prefer that hotties over the aunties.

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 35):
Sorry dude,

No issues mate atleast you went back and read it unlike someone out here.

Quoting Manny (Reply 18):
his is a BIG reason why AI should have flown nonstop SFO-BLR before JFK-BOM. I am repeating this again, they would have had a UNIQUE product. Its easier to sell a unique product than a product where there are comptetitiors. The SFO-BLR flight would have sold inspite of AI's inaptness.



Quoting Manny (Reply 38):
You kidding me! SFO-BLR would be much more profitable.

We would only know when an airline starts it, you cant base it on LHs [or BA/AF}performance especially when at FRA/LHR/CDG people get offf for other destinations as well,
nor is it considering just the UNIQUENESS of the product,
the fact that there is lesser competition on that route rather than the BOM-NYC , but there must be a reason for the lack of competition on that route, and with the competiton on the NYC route, all the airlines are still turning profit, so there is definitly room for more especially from the national carrier who has a loyal customer base at BOM.

Also you say BOM as a hub is a shithole, BLR aint any better [atleast till the new airport opens--i think late 2008].

and as i said you cant base your statements about an airlines route of what your opinion is.
NYC has proven to be a moneymaker. SFO will but a lot more goes into it before making it profitable bot just the fact that the aircraft will be full, the yield has to be good--A fact an airline like IC has proved to us in the last quarter.

Quoting Manny (Reply 38):
ats true for JFK as well. Who gets them the feed for the JFK route ?

you should know very well that there is ample O & D traffic from NYC---we saw that after DL and CO started NYC flights and i am sure AI will work out some codeshare agreement.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 40):
What do you not get about the pure and simple fact that all the above carriers fly their ultra long range flights from their hubs/technical base?

The fact that he does not read carefully and has nothing else to write , so he keeps bringing up the same points maybe trying to.............he can explain better.

Also , i am certain all of AIs l/haul flights will start at either BOM or DEL because of this very reason, the flight might route BOM/DEL-BLR-SFO, --i already stated this in the one of my posts--

Quoting Manny (Reply 20):
UA operated LHR-JFK too. Multiple flights. Now they are out.

So if UA pulls out AI should pull out too, UA has been bankrupt since ages and AI has not been in red since 1997., i dont get why you made that---AHA/// the prestiege issue which you still try to bring up right??/

Quoting Manny (Reply 20):
But security guards of a building will not fly nonstop to NYC for business or pleasure.

But the fact i was trying to say is that the NYC market self advertises itself., and thats just an example which i am sure you will be repeating time and time gain when you dont know what else to write.

Quoting Manny (Reply 20):
Someday they have to venture out. Leave the warm cozy nest of safety. Why now now ? Its not a big deal setting up a new destination with brand new A/C..

Have you heard the saying "Better safe than sorry"

Karan

[Edited 2007-02-23 21:54:52]
 
aarbee
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 40):

Well, nothing is significant in comparison to China! And the term "significant" is open to a million interpretations.

Actually, I was not quite comparing to China. Chinese market being controlled by the govt. would not have drastic fluctuations and affect others. I was more leaning to Lat-Am, or East European.
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 41):
How does that amount to "putting words in others mouths"? The AC thing is for real, not my imagination....AA was mentioned in a news article which has been discussed at length on another thread.....

Did I refer to AC thing to boost my argument? NO. Did I refer to AA's mention in a news article to support my argument? NO. So why drag it out here as if I used it?

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 41):
You're wrong again buddy....it was someone else who started the exchange issue....not me.....and I repeat once more, nowhere have I said that BSE is one of the most important or significant exchange in the world.....I was highlighting it's importance within India....you're the one who'se jumping to comparisons with other exchanges in the world......

Did you not jump in the discussion about stock exchanges? Oh! So you never compared the stock exchanges? Could you please look at reply 102 and 103 of the previous thread. Importance within India. Come'on give me a break. It is a quite well understood by everybody. You very well knew the discussion was going on about the importance of Indian markets and stuff.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 41):
Where do you see me using the word "nasty".....back to putting words in my mouth, you are....

I did not put words in your mouth. I was just questioning your accusation on me. So where do you get this then Quoted from reply 37 - "What's your problem with India by the way? You seem to be going to great lengths to run down the image..." . How do you say that I am having a problem with India or I and going great lengths to run down the image? Do you care to explain? How do you explain me running down the image of India without saying nasty words?  Angry  Confused

Repeating what I said before : Just because I do not agree to your point of view, does not mean I'm "going to great lengths to run down the (India's) image".

U have a great weekend too!

Cheers, Big grin
Love the AIXes
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:23 am

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 45):
Actually, I was not quite comparing to China. Chinese market being controlled by the govt. would not have drastic fluctuations and affect others. I was more leaning to Lat-Am, or East European.

Once again, I guess it all depends on what one deems "significant," isn't it?

If you want to view all of Eastern Europe as an entity or Latin America as an entity, then we can debate endlessly. But Uruguay or Poland versus India is a no-brainer.

Have a good weekend!
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
karan69
Posts: 2699
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:57 pm

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:43 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 33):
Currently, Kingfisher has seven Mumbai-Delhi flights daily, to which a couple of more would be added, while the Mumbai-Bangalore sector, which currently has five services daily, will be increased to six, he said.

VJM, should look at filling his current 7 and 5 flights before adding others, back in Jan when my father flew them on 3 flights all on BOM-DEL round trip, all on A321---each time he had the whole row to himself, the load was barely 60%, and he said there were barely 5 pax in the biz class cabin, thats real bad considering they have 32 biz class seats on their A321s.

Karan
 
rocketman742
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:08 pm

RE: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:16 pm

Air India s1st 777 delivery is further delayed to middle of the year.

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