HVNandrew
Topic Author
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AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:57 am

http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-b...ory?coll=ny-business-leadheadlines

The article talks mostly about AA's expansion plans, but also mentions that DL will add 18 domestic destinations from JFK by July. We know BGM, PDX and DFW are on DL's list, any guesses on the other 15?
 
RL757PVD
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:03 am

Ill bet ACK and MVY will be on the DL list!
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
BatonOps
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:16 am

Maybe the smaller upstate NY cities like ITH and ELM. Maybe MDT will get service back to the NYC area.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:18 am

PDX is new for this year... can't remember what all else out west.. besides DFW.
 
pensacolaguy
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:26 am

Bring back JFK-PNS or start LGA-PNS please..
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:45 pm

Not sure if we are actually talking all new destinations here. The way the article is worded, including the following sentence about DL having added 17 int'l destinations, it leads be to believe that those 18 domestic destinations are just a summary of what DL will have started by July, including those routes that they have already launched, like JFK, BDL or BUF. I strongly doubt that roughly 4 months out DL would be holding back on an announcement for 14 new routes on top of those already mentioned.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:09 pm

Maybe we'll see another large surge of transcons to secondary destinations like ONT and OAK.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:27 pm

there are additional domestic JFK destinations to be added in addition to what's already been mentioned.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
md90fan
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:32 pm

Hopefully I'll see ONT,SMF,MSY and YVR  checkmark 
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
BigGSFO
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 8):
Hopefully I'll see ONT,SMF,MSY and YVR

Agreed, however:
ONT - unlikely, poor loads/yields
SMF - didn't/doesn't DL operate this? Didn't last. Even UA has pulled SMF-IAD (didn't they?) and you'd think the government traffic between the largest state and DC would be sufficeint.
MSY - nice fit.
YVR - always thought this would be a success, but only seasonal.
 
hiflyer
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:49 pm

B6 is considered vulnerable today...so jump in now and try to steal summer traffic and also lower B6 yields, right when B6 is going to have to spend large bucks to upgrade their infrastructure, to further impact them. DL does it hiding behind Chapt 11 and AMR does it under their old 'eat or be eaten' manifesto that goes back to Braniff.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:41 am

If Delta is going to compete strong and long term, they need to "get their house in order" ie a new terminal facility. B6 and AA have them beat by a long shot in that category!
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
Alitalia744
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 11):
If Delta is going to compete strong and long term, they need to "get their house in order" ie a new terminal facility.

Shiny and bright with a beautiful widget on the front...

 Wink
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:59 am

Maybe they'll give JKF-GSO a try again
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 11):
If Delta is going to compete strong and long term, they need to "get their house in order" ie a new terminal facility. B6 and AA have them beat by a long shot in that category!

And yet they experience a massive growth of pax that use those "subpar" facilities  Wink ...
 
panam330
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 9):
Even UA has pulled SMF-IAD

United has not dropped the flight- they operate one A319 per day. B6, however, pulled their SMF-IAD flight.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 15):
United has not dropped the flight- they operate one A319 per day. B6, however, pulled their SMF-IAD flight.

Thanks PanAm. I knew somebody dropped out of the market...
 
RobertS975
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 11):
If Delta is going to compete strong and long term, they need to "get their house in order" ie a new terminal facility. B6 and AA have them beat by a long shot in that category!

This is absolutely true. The T2/T3 facility is an abomination, a facility built before security was even a thought.
 
SANFan
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:57 am

Having read the article, I see the statement about "18 new DL destinations" but I just don't believe it.

This number must include those destinations already announced: STT, MBJ, PHX, PDX. But even 14 more within 5 months seems to be really stretching JFK facilities, DL a/c availability, and timing of announcements.

I certainly don't doubt that there will be additional destinations added from JFK by DL but this number just seems ridiculously high. Also, this expansion was mentioned as an aside in an article about AA so I will wait until I see a more complete p r from (or at least about) Delta.

bb
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:03 am

They are both along with B6 going to end up clogging JFK with small planes
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 19):
They are both along with B6 going to end up clogging JFK with small planes

...would take quite a bit to reach saturation point. Unlike the other two NYC airports, JFK actually has plenty of growth potention during much of the day.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting HVNandrew (Thread starter):
We know BGM, PDX and DFW are on DL's list, any guesses on the other 15?

I actually think CRW is on this list. We've been going after flights to NYC for ages and the demand is definately there. I think that seeing BGM as one of the cities also increases our chances.

[Edited 2007-02-23 22:52:12]
 
by188b
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 11):
If Delta is going to compete strong and long term, they need to "get their house in order" ie a new terminal facility. B6 and AA have them beat by a long shot in that category!

 checkmark 

I flew DL LGW-JFK-LGW last year, i can honestly say that deltas terminal is one of the worst in the world (yes even worse than LHR  Smile )

On the return sector, queues snaking outside the terminal, passengers missing their flights left right and centre... from a foreigners point of view D's JFK terminal is like entering a third world country.
next flights : BD LHR-TXL J, FR SXF-STN Y, SN BRU-LHR Y, MA LHR-BUD Y, BA BUD-LHR J, BA LCY-SNN-JFK J, BA JFK-LHR J, BA
 
BN727
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:59 am

My bets say they will go wherever B6 goes. Odds are they won't come up with anything new or original. Only this time DL can't gouge the customer with sky high fares.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:02 am

Quoting BN727 (Reply 23):
My bets say they will go wherever B6 goes. Odds are they won't come up with anything new or original. Only this time DL can't gouge the customer with sky high fares.

Other than illustrating some sort of hatred for DL, this post doesn't make any sense. If DL is only following B6 around, then they won't be able to charge sky high fares on any of those routes.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
Riddle274
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:44 am

How about something to DAB?  Wink
 
worldtraveler
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 11):
B6 and AA have them beat by a long shot in that category!

Yet, AA spent $1B on a facility that makes their airport costs per passenger at JFK the highest of any major airport in the US.

And B6's facilities obviously weren't adequate to handle their Valentine's Day meltdown.

Yes, DL needs to find a solution to a facility in JFK. The best way to justify the cost is to prove there is a market there... and that means pushing the current facility to its limits.

DL has $6 Billion of capital expenditures in its business plan over the next five years - far more than any other airline has had coming out of BK. You can bet a nice chunk of that will be used for a new/ major remodeling of the JFK facility.
 
panam330
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting Riddle274 (Reply 25):
How about something to DAB?

I have a feeling that DAB might see some DL service to NYC. Whether it's LGA or JFK remains to be seen (I hope JFK, because that would enable me to connect home to SYR), but I've heard that the DAB-LGA CRJs did fairly well during the holidays. New York is a large market to Florida, but DAB is a relatively small market. We already have service to EWR (737/ERJ), and I don't know how much more service is truly needed here.
That said, I'd certainly like to see some more variation here at DAB. AA/AE to MIA and/or ORD would be worth it's weight in gold (to me). But I don't think that will happen, unfortunately.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 26):
DL has $6 Billion of capital expenditures in its business plan over the next five years - far more than any other airline has had coming out of BK. You can bet a nice chunk of that will be used for a new/ major remodeling of the JFK facility.

amazing what people could find if they read!

like I said shiny and bright with a big widget!
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
N766UA
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:48 am

God help DL. They really don't have the facilities to expand at JFK. The system in place for RJs is awful, especially if there are delays, and the lines for check-in and security are a mess. I wish they'd build up BOS.
This Website Censors Me
 
MCOflyer
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:50 am

I'd like to see ELM and BGM. These are high potential cities that have NW Airlink service and US Express service. I think DL could win some customers if they timed the flights just right.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:03 am

BOS likely will get some int'l service in a couple years so say the folks that know. But JFK will be DL's NE big dog. It just needs a flea bath right now.
 
BatonOps
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 30):
I'd like to see ELM and BGM. These are high potential cities that have NW Airlink service and US Express service. I think DL could win some customers if they timed the flights just right.

I think ITH could be added to your list. Also another NW and US city.
 
OOer
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:50 am

Any chance of DL restarting DEN-JFK even with only an E170? Or how about OMA-JFK. Or BHM-JFK. Any chance of DL doing a HNL-SLC-JFK run swith that 764 that arrives at 8am or whatever?
 
BigGSFO
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:18 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 31):
It just needs a flea bath right now.

Needs more than a flea bath. Try reconstructive surgery.  Smile
 
RobertS975
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 20):
would take quite a bit to reach saturation point. Unlike the other two NYC airports, JFK actually has plenty of growth potention during much of the day.

Yeah, but from 4PM to 9PM, it is an hour from pushback to the runway on a perfectly fine day.
 
N766UA
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 35):
Yeah, but from 4PM to 9PM, it is an hour from pushback to the runway on a perfectly fine day.

At least. In the evening it's especially bad when you get all those heavies mixed in and the holds for wake turb start really adding up.
This Website Censors Me
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:03 am

Actually, that isn't always true. This past Monday we pushed back at 7:48pm and were in the air 10 minutes later...

Not really sure why.

JetBluefan1
 
RL757PVD
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:45 pm

Id like to see DL takeover terminal 1 at JFK, then remodel Terminal 2 to match the peir from T1. The displaced T1 airlines can go to a T4 expansion, with the skyteam airlines remaining. This would also increase the convenience of those connecting on DL to AF codeshares. If DL had a consolidated facility with T1-2-3, id imagine they would have ample room, (but not excess) to carry out a sizeable JFK operation.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:07 pm

DL is starting its int'l depts. at 4.30 pm this summer to help spread out its int'l operation and to increase the utilization of the facilities. It should make a noticeable improvement in the ATC situation. DL's TATL ops at ATL begin at 4.30 in earnest and some flights have left as early as 3.30. It's easier to do with 10-12 hr flights and DL has plenty of those from both JFK and ATL.

There have been number of discussions about what options DL might exercise for renovating/rebuilding its JFK facilities but you can bet it wiill be a combination of expanded new and renovation of existing facilities. I wouldn't be surprised if DL announces a JFK terminal plan by the end of this summer.
 
planetime
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 39):
There have been number of discussions about what options DL might exercise for renovating/rebuilding its JFK facilities but you can bet it wiill be a combination of expanded new and renovation of existing facilities. I wouldn't be surprised if DL announces a JFK terminal plan by the end of this summer.

Old Pan Am terminal is in real need of a renewel. I think Delta will come up with a grand plan soon with the rate they are continuing to grow at JFK. With B6 and AA both getting new terminals soon.... DL will also be looking for nw real estate.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 38):
Id like to see DL takeover terminal 1 at JFK, then remodel Terminal 2 to match the peir from T1. The displaced T1 airlines can go to a T4 expansion, with the skyteam airlines remaining. This would also increase the convenience of those connecting on DL to AF codeshares. If DL had a consolidated facility with T1-2-3, id imagine they would have ample room, (but not excess) to carry out a sizeable JFK operation.

T1 is privately owned by LH/AF/JL and etc. Its not as easy as making them move out. There was initially talk of expanding T4 to accomodate DL ' s intl flight. T4 has enough room to expand.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting Planetime (Reply 40):
There was initially talk of expanding T4 to accomodate DL ' s intl flight. T4 has enough room to expand.

Not really. During the time DL could do well with additional gates, T4 is filled up just as much with all the flights bound for Europe, or early South America flights, be it EI, AR, LX, CSA, BG, etc.
 
phollingsworth
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RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 41):
Not really. During the time DL could do well with additional gates, T4 is filled up just as much with all the flights bound for Europe, or early South America flights, be it EI, AR, LX, CSA, BG, etc.

The plan, prior to the distaster that the last 5.5 years has been was to demolish T3 and expand T4. The expansion of T4 was to handle all DL international ops. T2 would have been remodeled and expanded. DL has a couple of problems with the current worldport setup.

1. It is a dingy maze.
2. Landside capacity is nowhere near enough to handle the O&D traffic.

Neither are easy to solve and many scenarios would indicate that it will get worse before it gets better.
 
worldtraveler
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:28 am

It is more likely that some sort of expansion of T4 will be done to allow DL to grow while refurbishing/rebuilding its current complex. It is too expensive to tear it all down but there is a lot of wasted space in T3 (in the interior) while some areas like ticketing and check-in are way too small and too far from the street. Clever minds can and will fix the problems and come up w/ a price that DL can afford and still be competitive .
 
Alitalia744
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Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:46 am

I think that portions of the WorldPort will be incorporated in a potential new design of sorts....

that's what I think.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
planetime
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:02 am

Is there anything being proposed for a new terminal with DL at JFK?
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Planetime (Reply 45):
Is there anything being proposed for a new terminal with DL at JFK?

I'm sure DL is aware of their current terminal constraints and is looking at options for how to deal with it. Beyond that, no one knows.  Smile
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
worldtraveler
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:09 am

DL was very close to signing a contract for a new facility at JFK prior to 9/11. They haven't forgotten the need.
 
planetime
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 47):
DL was very close to signing a contract for a new facility at JFK prior to 9/11. They haven't forgotten the need.

Yes and that was supposed to be like a mega terminal.
 
deltaguy767
Posts: 637
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:32 am

RE: AA, DL To Continue JFK Expansion

Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 31):
BOS likely will get some int'l service in a couple years so say the folks that know. But JFK will be DL's NE big dog. It just needs a flea bath right now.

Hey I'd like to think so too, but unfortunately BOS will see no Int'l service from DL unless there is US Immigration preclearance at the opposite end. It's too bad that Massport led DL under the assumption that they would be able to bring Int'l service once the terminal was complete, because that was the primary reason why DL was spending big bucks in BOS for a new terminal. Then after Sept 2001, everything changed and once the new terminal opened in 05', Massport changed their tune about Int'l service with INS/Customs in house. It amazes me that if Massport can just admit that they were wrong to build Terminal E, and just let DL and Skyteam hub out of Terminal A with customs, BOS would have many more flights bringing in more tourists which means more  dollarsign  Hopefully in the coming years, DL will revamp Terminal 2/3 and become the "big dog" at JFK, but that is something to be seen probably once DL rises from BK.

Cheers from BDL,  wave 
DeltaGuy767
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