AirlineFanatic
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Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:46 am

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...47_N23329143&type=comktNews&rpc=44

WASHINGTON, Feb 23 (Reuters) - Virgin America, the fledgling airline with ties to British entrepreneur Richard Branson, has begun leasing Airbus A320s to others to generate revenue as it struggles to win permission from the U.S. government to operate, its chief executive said on Friday.

Fred Reid told reporters after a speech to an industry group that the company has finalized two leases with a U.S. start-up airline and is in the process of negotiating two more leases with a foreign carrier he would not name.

Reid said the leases were short-term in case Virgin America needed to take the planes back for its own operations.
 
B6sFinest
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:52 am

2 planes to a start up airline in the US...Hmmm...Skybus!!!
Got Blue?
 
richierich
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:53 am

I thought I read that Skybus was one of the start-up airlines on the receiving end.

well, they have to do something while twiddling their thumbs and waiting!
None shall pass!!!!
 
SANFan
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:02 am

Although Skybus is also waiting to recieve its certification to start flying, is it not?

That's a lot of expensive, almost brand-new Airbi sitting around collecting dust. Hmmmm, anybody got F9's phone number handy?

bb
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
That's a lot of expensive, almost brand-new Airbi sitting around collecting dust.

It's a puzzlement.

About a month ago, one of the investors said there was "about" a six month time limit on it, that after six months (five now) the investment becomes meaningless (code for "airline doesn't happen").

If they get their certificate, then I guess all is well, and if they don't I am sure there is a ready market for those A320's already delivered.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
anybody got F9's phone number handy?

I don't know if Frontier would be in the market - they have had several opportunites to acquire recently delivered/nearly new A319's and A320's but have always passed. They even passed on their own options to transfer some A319 aircraft to A320 a couple of years ago.

BUT -

- if Virgin America "doesn't happen", a whole slew of delivery slots opens up in the A320 production line. Would that affect Frontier?

When they first ordered the Airbus aircraft, they advanced the delivery of the first two A319's by a few months because some slots in the production line became available earlier than expected.

The first A320 is due to be delivered to Frontier in 12 months. I don't know if they would want them any earlier?

mariner
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:56 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
I don't know if Frontier would be in the market - they have had several opportunites to acquire recently delivered/nearly new A319's and A320's but have always passed. They even passed on their own options to transfer some A319 aircraft to A320 a couple of years ago.

BUT -

- if Virgin America "doesn't happen", a whole slew of delivery slots opens up in the A320 production line. Would that affect Frontier?

When they first ordered the Airbus aircraft, they advanced the delivery of the first two A319's by a few months because some slots in the production line became available earlier than expected.

The first A320 is due to be delivered to Frontier in 12 months. I don't know if they would want them any earlier?

Mariner,

I'm actually suprised by this. While I know F9 is conservative in their growth plans, it looks like they could really use a few more on short notice. Or is the Q400 purchase dominating their short term mind frame? Speaking of which, when do the Q400's come on board? (I lost the ball on that order.)

I also wonder how short term of a lease Virg America can offer and still make taking the airframes... attractive.

F9 should grab a bit more SFO traffic before Virg America becomes reality. Although I'll admit I do not know which "bypass" destinations would make sense for them... Not to mention WN entering SFO is... huge.

I give Virg America only a 50/50 chance of getting their flight certificate.  Sad Cest la vie.

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deltal1011man
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:58 am

Good i hope the US government will say NO then they can just sell those planes!!
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 6):
Good i hope the US government will say NO then they can just sell those planes!!

Why? and why is there such a stigma against Skybus and VA? Y'all afraid of someone better then your all powerful legacy carriers?
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DAYflyer
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 7):
Why? and why is there such a stigma against Skybus and VA? Y'all afraid of someone better then your all powerful legacy carriers?

No, we just have about 500 airlines operating here already and really dont need anymore. There is already a glut of competition.
One Nation Under God
 
Cadet57
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
No, we just have about 500 airlines operating here already and really dont need anymore.

Yes... we have 500 airlines operating nationwide and they all compete on all the same routes and oh, look they all have the same substandard service!  sarcastic 
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
kingcavalier
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 5):
when do the Q400's come on board?

May
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rolo987
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 9):
Yes... we have 500 airlines operating nationwide and they all compete on all the same routes and oh, look they all have the same substandard service! sarcastic

Cadet57 I totally agree with you
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 5):
While I know F9 is conservative in their growth plans, it looks like they could really use a few more on short notice.

They have five A319/A318 coming between now and June (one - N950FR - already here by a day or two) plus the start of delivery of the Q400's in May. Plus dealing with the E170's - Republic's concern, but Frontier is involved in making sure the transtion is smooth.

T'ain't bad growth for one year - especially with a lot of new stations to start up. And the staffing considerations. I think they are probably happy t leave thiungs as they are now.

There is also the (small) problem that the VA A320's have a premium caboin - admittedly the first couple of E170's will have a premium cabin as well (last I heard) until the seating can be changed.

But - there is still the question of possible earlier A320 production slots if VA doesn't fly.

mariner
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skyzheimers
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:14 am

I believe F9's strategy is going to build traffic at their hub first by connecting smaller communities that SW won't fly to... don't think they're interested in VA's airbuses at this time... I also wouldn't be surprised if they rethink their MEM plans...
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 13):
I believe F9's strategy is going to build traffic at their hub first by connecting smaller communities that SW won't fly to.

That is the plan for Lynx/Q400's - Frontier Express - but not for mainline.

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 13):
I also wouldn't be surprised if they rethink their MEM plans...

Why should they do that? I doubt that Norhwest's retaliation was any surprise to them.

mariner
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):

They have five A319/A318 coming between now and June (one - N950FR - already here by a day or two) plus the start of delivery of the Q400's in May. Plus dealing with the E170's - Republic's concern, but Frontier is involved in making sure the transtion is smooth.

T'ain't bad growth for one year - especially with a lot of new stations to start up. And the staffing considerations. I think they are probably happy t leave thiungs as they are now.

There is also the (small) problem that the VA A320's have a premium caboin - admittedly the first couple of E170's will have a premium cabin as well (last I heard) until the seating can be changed.

But - there is still the question of possible earlier A320 production slots if VA doesn't fly.

Thanks for the info.

That is a bit of growth for Frontier.

Its interesting that the E170's will have a premium cabin for a bit... an amusing "oops" for F9.  Wink

IIRC, the Q400's are coming in at about one a month? So F9 will hae a good growth year.

Question:
How is the gate situation for them at DEN?

As to virg America... I doubt they'll give up soon. At least they're conserving cash by leasing out the aircraft.

Lightsaber
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deltal1011man
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 7):
Why? and why is there such a stigma against Skybus and VA? Y'all afraid of someone better then your all powerful legacy carriers?

is if DL where to movie its HQ over to Poland you would be just fine? Its a thing of pride i dont want a company(any) to be owned by another company that is based overseas. along with that how can you say your an American airline and not fly A/C made in America(that is why i HATE US) But i also think that AF KL BA should be flying Airbus. Also i think that AA,CO,DL,NW,UA could crush Virgin America if they really wanted to. No i'm scared that they will effect my all and powerful carriers because they won't. BUT i want an airline made and owned by AMERICA not a oversea country.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 15):
At least they're conserving cash by leasing out the aircraft.

"Conserving cash?" You mean "not bleeding cash" by leasing out their buses. I am guessing here, but I imagine the lease payments won't cover expenses.  Smile

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 13):
I also wouldn't be surprised if they rethink their MEM plans...

Huh? What does MEM have to do with VX's buses? Even if they were to open up delivery slots, which could theorhetically allow F9 to acquire more aircraft (if they wanted), why would this cause a rethinking of Memphis?? Or were you adding another F9 thought to the mix?
 
n917me
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:44 am

If A320 slots open, maybe we may hear YX palce and order to start replacing their MD80's
 
skyzheimers
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:22 am

That is the plan for Lynx/Q400's - Frontier Express - but not for mainline
that's correct and they will feed into the Airbuses waiting at DEN and vice versa...

Huh? What does MEM have to do with VX's buses?
you allocate equipment to open one market but end up pulling the plug than you have frames being freed up to go somewhere else and you don't need to lease them from Virgin...

Frontier has a hard time as is to fill their planes - load factor last month was around 65%... their strategy with the Q400s and E170 is to connect smaller markets that Southwest won't touch and feed the bigger frames at DEN that compete with SW and UA...
 
siromega
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:23 am

Why not lease them to Jetblue so they can operate their network? ::ducks::
 
skyzheimers
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:28 am

Why not lease them to Jetblue so they can operate their network? ::ducks::

 rotfl 
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 19):
Frontier has a hard time as is to fill their planes - load factor last month was around 65%.

Frontier always has that sort of load factor in January. Southwest's in January was 63%.

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 19):
their strategy with the Q400s and E170 is to connect smaller markets that Southwest won't touch and feed the bigger frames at DEN that compete with SW and UA...

The Q400's, yes. But the E170's are flying DEN-SDF, for example, and Southwest serves SDF, just not from DEN. Similarly, the E170's will fly some of the LAX-SFO frequencies - a potential Southwest route, I am told.

I think the debate is that since Frontier will have A320's within 12 months, why not sub-lease some from VA in the meantime. I tried to address that above in post #12.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 15):
Its interesting that the E170's will have a premium cabin for a bit... an amusing "oops" for F9.  

I believe Frontier is going to allocate the premium seats to Elite FF members. Could this start a trend?  Smile

mariner
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skyzheimers
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:50 am

"think the debate is that since Frontier will have A320's within 12 months, why not sub-lease some from VA in the meantime. I tried to address that above in post #12."

because they're building more connecting traffic before they're ready for more larger frames...
I've been trying to address that inpost 13 & 19  Big grin
 
BlueElephant
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:57 am

Quoting B6sFinest (Reply 1):
2 planes to a start up airline in the US...Hmmm...Skybus!!!



Quoting Richierich (Reply 2):
I thought I read that Skybus was one of the start-up airlines on the receiving end.

You Guys are correct, Skybus, has 2 aircraft. I know 1 for sure is N521VA which was leased from Virgin America, and I believe the second one is two.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
Although Skybus is also waiting to recieve its certification to start flying, is it not?

A member of the Skybus team came to speak to our class, he said FAA Proving runs will start within the next two weeks.
According to him, if everything goes well, they look to start service in the first week of May...(May 1st was suggested in the Columbus Dispatch)
 
SANFan
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:00 am

Mariner, I have a question for which I would, as always, appreciate your opinion. (It's loosely on-topic anyway...)

In discussing F9 and VX, there is some thought of Frontier maybe starting routes that Virgin appears headed for. The cities VX has publicized as its first 5 (from SFO) are JFK, WAS, LAX, SAN and LAS. Assuming F9 would probably not start transcons, thus eliminating NY and DC (with JFK coincidentally already announced by the Men in Blue) and acknowledging that F9 has already started LA and LV service, that leaves one city -- SAN.

Armed with the knowledge that WN is "re-bound" for SFO, and in my opinion, that will certainly include SD-SF service, and AS just (last October) entered that same market, do you think Frontier could end up starting SAN-SFO service soon?

With your "visions" and "little birdies", I always like to hear your take on F9 and "what's up"... I'm curious if you "feel" this popular intra-Ca market might see F9 this summer.

bb
 
acabgd
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:02 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 16):
is if DL where to movie its HQ over to Poland you would be just fine? Its a thing of pride i dont want a company(any) to be owned by another company that is based overseas. along with that how can you say your an American airline and not fly A/C made in America(that is why i HATE US) But i also think that AF KL BA should be flying Airbus. Also i think that AA,CO,DL,NW,UA could crush Virgin America if they really wanted to. No i'm scared that they will effect my all and powerful carriers because they won't. BUT i want an airline made and owned by AMERICA not a oversea country.

Dude, you have some serious problems, really. I don't think anyone in Europe or the rest of the World reasoned like you some 30 years ago when 80 or even 90% of jet planes were made by either Boeing or Douglas. No one complained then about wanting to fly only local made planes and crush any airline coming from overseas or from the US.

It is the nature of air travel to expand constantly - that is also one of the main driving forces in international business.

If you want local protectionism you are living in a wrong country.
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JoeCattoli
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting Acabgd (Reply 26):
If you want local protectionism you are living in a wrong country.

I fully agree.. competition have to grow...
If DeltaL1011 don't like them he lives in a free country so he's free not to fly'em.
VA should fly.

Ciao
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mxa318
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 16):
is if DL where to movie its HQ over to Poland you would be just fine? Its a thing of pride i dont want a company(any) to be owned by another company that is based overseas. along with that how can you say your an American airline and not fly A/C made in America(that is why i HATE US) But i also think that AF KL BA should be flying Airbus. Also i think that AA,CO,DL,NW,UA could crush Virgin America if they really wanted to. No i'm scared that they will effect my all and powerful carriers because they won't. BUT i want an airline made and owned by AMERICA not a oversea country.

Obviously the rest of the world believes in utilizing the right equipment, the right personnel and proper customer service regardless of where it comes from, who owns it or who produces it. For being such proponents of globalization ,we Americans seem to retain very outdated ideologies, such as the one quoted above. And we wonder why we're so "popular" around the world.......  frown 
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captaink
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
No, we just have about 500 airlines operating here already and really dont need anymore. There is already a glut of competition.

Half of which are rather crappy. So maybe let them put up or shut up. That is to say if they can't make it, it doesn't make sense flogging a dead horse. Give up. Let the strong survive, let the market decide which airlines they want to fly.
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mariner
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:01 pm

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 23):
because they're building more connecting traffic before they're ready for more larger frames...

Several Frontier routes out of DEN are already ready for larger frames, and have been for some time. A lot of it has to do with the old debate about capacity versus frequency.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 25):
In discussing F9 and VX, there is some thought of Frontier maybe starting routes that Virgin appears headed for.

There are many schools of thought about this, and everything depends on one thing - whether or not VA gets their certificate.

If they don't, then we're about where we should be. If they do, then the playing field changes - for everyone.

Limiting this to intra-CA (and LAS), then undoubtedly if VA flies those routes they will attract a lot of pax from other airlines if only because of the razzamatazz and the novelty. The big airlines can huff and puff all they want, but Branson knows how to use the media.

Whether Virgin America can keep those pax or not is something we can't know. Will there be a Virgin Effect? It seems unlikely, because fares intra-CA are already low - because of Southwest. In the end, even intra-CA is a finite market.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 25):
do you think Frontier could end up starting SAN-SFO service soon?

It is possible, because Frontier's CEO has said it is a possible route (at the same time, he said he would like to introduce the old Midnight Flyer LAX/SFO).

But then he is a known (naughty) destination tease. He also said that SFO-SNA was a possible for Frontier, and no one thought to ask him how he could get the slots at SNA.

We also know, because Frontier has said so, that California (including LAS) is a "focus region" for them. But I think that has to be taken in consideration with any new Mexico service.

So my guess would be that yes, SAN-SFO may be possible on Frontier, but given the Virgin situation and Southwest, I think it may (now) be more probable that SAN will see Frontier service to somewhere else first.

But heck, I didn't think they'd take on Northwest again, as they have at MEM.  Smile

mariner
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bistro1200
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 9):
they all have the same substandard service

By definition, they can't *ALL* be substandard! By that measure, who is standard? I think that service standard is an outdated concept dating from before deregulation when the airlines could *only* compete on service. Most people don't realize how cheap flying has become... go look at some airfares from the 1970's and you'll see they paid more, in *real* dollers (not adjusted for inflation).

The whole notion of airlines "screwing" passengers is groupthink and anecdotal at best. Consider that this is one of safest periods in air travel, and that it has remained so even after outsourced maintenance, downsizing, and multiple bankruptcies. That's a pretty good service.
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ikramerica
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:19 pm

VA may be singing a familiar song depending on the responses to their modified filing.

"I fought the law, and the law won..."

Whether or not anyone agrees with them in concept, they did not even come close to following the letter nor intent of the law, and then went public with their gripes when they brought the problem on themselves. Going public with the "poor us" mantra really doesn't help their case...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
skyzheimers
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:31 pm

" A lot of it has to do with the old debate about capacity versus frequency"

NO, it has to do with making a profit...
SW with a 63% load factor will still report a profit and keep expanding at DEN while F9 with a 65,2% load factor will report a loss which it can't afford... there is only so much capacity a market can sustain profitably and with the arrival of SW at DEN Frontier is desperately looking to diversify and going into smaller hopefully higher yielding markets is their strategy and I hope it works... larger frames mean nothing if you can't make money with them and for now I think they have just the right amount of big airbuses and obviously their management thinks along those lines if not they would have jumped on the opportunity to lease a couple of Virginn frames...
 
skyzheimers
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:38 pm

" the whole notion of airlines "screwing" passengers is groupthink and anecdotal at best"

 bigthumbsup 
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:48 pm

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 33):
" A lot of it has to do with the old debate about capacity versus frequency"NO, it has to do with making a profit...

Since the Frontier CEO has said that the purchase of the A320 involves the debate about capacity versus frequency, I am not sure why you would disagree.

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 33):
SW with a 63% load factor will still report a profit and keep expanding at DEN while F9 with a 65,2% load factor will report a loss which it can't afford.

Up until the December storms, Frontier was profitable for the financial year.

???

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 33):
will report a loss which it can't afford

They have a lot of money in the bank. Even including the cost of the storms, the loss for the year is easily manageable.

???

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 33):
I think they have just the right amount of big airbuses and obviously their management thinks along those lines if not they would have jumped on the opportunity to lease a couple of Virgin frames...

I seriously doubt they would have "jumped" on the VA aircraft anyway. (i) They are not suited to the Frontier fleet and (ii) all the reasons I gave in my first post on this.

They are introducing 15 new aircraft this year. Why would they want more?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
skyzheimers
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:54 pm

" They are introducing 15 new aircraft this year. Why would they want more?"

well that's exactly my point... so we agree!

 Smile
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 36):
so we agree!

Yes. As I said in post #4:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
I don't know if Frontier would be in the market - they have had several opportunites to acquire recently delivered/nearly new A319's and A320's but have always passed. They even passed on their own options to transfer some A319 aircraft to A320 a couple of years ago.

mariner
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kstateinALB
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
There is already a glut of competition.

It's the US. There might be a lot of competition, but in the end, its pretty much survival of the fittest. I would rather see VA get off the ground and go bankrupt in 8 months instead of not seeing them at all. That being said, I would rather see them for much longer than 8 months. But in the end, they should be allowed to fight for passengers.
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skyzheimers
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:06 pm

so how was that flight on a Short Sunderland?  biggrin 
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:14 pm

Quoting Skyzheimers (Reply 39):
so how was that flight on a Short Sunderland?  

Sorry - I don't remember too much of what happened when I was six months old.

The Stratocruisers and the Constellations and the Argonaouts and the Hermes, yes. And the DC3's. I remember them all very well. Even the Comet.

But I was older then.  Smile

mariner
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Electech6299
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:07 pm

One thing I find interesting, and the second disturbing: 1) It happened just days (that's lightning speed in aviation) after the DOT announcement of a 30 day extension. 2) Now the mystique of their modern cabin will be prostituted around the world in other's hands, for other eyes to see and take in without experiencing the VA service. I assume their IFE will at least be disabled?

Quoting AirlineFanatic (Thread starter):
a foreign carrier he would not name

I wonder if it might be "Virgin" XXX?  scratchchin  Perhaps Blue? Or Nigeria?

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 17):
"Conserving cash?" You mean "not bleeding cash"

One apolitical, financial statement and one hyped press lingo statement that both mean the same thing. What's your point? We all know that VA's revenue to this point is $0. At least now they aren't going through their cash reserves so quickly.

Quoting N917ME (Reply 18):
If A320 slots open, maybe we may hear YX palce and order to start replacing their MD80's

Now that's what I'm talking about!  Smile

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 24):
I believe the second one is two.

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this statement? Big grin

Quoting Mariner (Reply 30):
Will there be a Virgin Effect? It seems unlikely, because fares intra-CA are already low

I don't think VA would ever cause a fare reduction in a market- and fare reduction is not -the- significant meaning of the "Southwest Effect", but creation/expansion of markets, increasing pax count by bringing air travel to a previously unserved population. That will not happen with VA's business model. (It might, however, bring some "retired" travelers back out of hibernation to see if the VA experience awakens the nostalgia of the Branniff and BOAC days...)

All the talk of wanting to see competition, I'm really not interested in any more LCCs. I want an airline that's slogan is "You can't afford our service", so that pax can remember that flying is different than taking the bus, and will expect to pay accordingly. (The other competition I want to see is a bus service with an airplane tail that features airport-to-airport routes at $5 below the lowest LCC fare. You want to pay for a bus ticket, you should ride a landbus, not an Airbus. Besides, the seats are more comfy and the security lines are much shorter!)

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 32):
VA may be singing a familiar song depending on the responses to their modified filing.

"I fought the law, and the law won..."

Isn't that "I fight authority, authority always wins"?  Wink Well, it all depends on the next 60 days or so...I don't think they're dead yet. Let's see if the objectors have anything left to say that hasn't been said yet that can be legally considered... and how VA responds to the objectors.

I agree that they didn't score any points in the courts with their publicity campaign, but maybe they did with the target audience (potential pax). Nothing increases loyalty like fighting (or feeling like you are) through adversity. ("Keep X my X" ring a bell?) If they end up restructuring and divesting some foreign assets, how many pax will remember that six weeks after they are up and running? Not many, just a vague memory of the big bad Uncle Sam harassing their startup. But those same pax will be more loyal after signing a petition, and will see VA as the underdog hero who stood up to Uncle Sam.

Of course for this to happen, they will have to (eventually) bring their corporate structure in line with what the DOT wants, and the sooner the better in business terms. But it seems to me that they are hunkering down for a long fight...IMHO the management doesn't expect a favorable resolution at the conclusion of this latest extension, or they might not have bothered leasing out the frames.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:28 pm

Quoting Acabgd (Reply 26):
Dude, you have some serious problems, really. I don't think anyone in Europe or the rest of the World reasoned like you some 30 years ago when 80 or even 90% of jet planes were made by either Boeing or Douglas. No one complained then about wanting to fly only local made planes and crush any airline coming from overseas or from the US.

It is the nature of air travel to expand constantly - that is also one of the main driving forces in international business.

If you want local protectionism you are living in a wrong country.

hey i haven't herd a single American that wants that airline to fly AND i dont of ANY airline that wants them here! so i say take the point and GET OUT
BTW i don't have a problem its called LOVING MY COUNTY
GOD BLESS AMERICA
and please keep VA out
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 41):
and fare reduction is not -the- significant meaning of the "Southwest Effect", but creation/expansion of markets, increasing pax count by bringing air travel to a previously unserved population.

And lower airfares is an essential element of the creation of more traffic.

The most recent example being DEN, where fares dropped when Southwest arrived and traffic increased.

So it is unilkely that there will be a stimuation of traffic by Virgin on intra-California routes, because Southwest has already had the "effect" of lowering the fares and stimulatring traffic.

mariner
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PanAm747LHR
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 16):
is if DL where to movie its HQ over to Poland you would be just fine? Its a thing of pride i dont want a company(any) to be owned by another company that is based overseas. along with that how can you say your an American airline and not fly A/C made in America(that is why i HATE US) But i also think that AF KL BA should be flying Airbus. Also i think that AA,CO,DL,NW,UA could crush Virgin America if they really wanted to. No i'm scared that they will effect my all and powerful carriers because they won't. BUT i want an airline made and owned by AMERICA not a oversea country.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 42):
hey i haven't herd a single American that wants that airline to fly AND i dont of ANY airline that wants them here! so i say take the point and GET OUT
BTW i don't have a problem its called LOVING MY COUNTY
GOD BLESS AMERICA
and please keep VA out

Ok, Let's get something straight - You do not speak for all americans, so stop saying that you do. I'm american, and I'd love to see Virgin America take off. (Now you've heard from your "single american" who wants VA to fly.) I think Virgin America would help other airlines in the states realize that they need to step up their game to be competitive. Competition is healthy, and it would also be contributing revenue to our economy. Last time I checked, that was a good thing. It has nothing to do with foreign ownership.
And on that front, your problem is not "Loving your country" but rather blatent ignorance. When was the last time you took a medicine for a cold? Chances are it was probably manufactured or developed by someone other than a US company. Should those medicines be pulled from US shelves because they were not made here? Should those companies "get out" as you say? What about cars? Do you drive a US manufactured car? Should all foreign cars be banned from our roads? Honestly dude, think before you speak - especially in a forum like this with so many people from overseas reading. Ignorant, thoughtless statements like those that you just made make all of us look bad. Please, think before you speak.
To the rest of you reading, I apologize. I promise not all americans think that way.

Nick
 
oldtimer
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:53 pm

Well said PanAm747LHR, this kid wants to also realise that this is a European owned and run site, and to use his own (DeltaL1011) thinking he should not lower his moronic thinking and even participate in it at all.
I am fortunate that I have lived and worked in the USA. Its a great country with a lot of great people. It produces a lot of great airplanes, the best I have been involved with has been the DC10, but that is my own personnel thinking. Airbus has, and will, also produce a lot of great airplanes now and in the future too.
The silly A v B on these threads leaves me very frustrated at times as I have had both good and bad experiences on both but it belies the point that both make good aircraft. Airbus has had a lot of recent problems and I, as many other real A-Netters from both sides of the pond, hope things will work out satisfactory. Only time will Tell. B needs competition to keep on its toes to provide more nad more inovations like the forthcoming 787. Without a sound competitor they would have had no reason to develop it.
Please stop all this moronic and childish argueing on this site. This is a site for genuine aircraft enthusiests, not for the silly "mine is bigger than yours" syndrome that affects some who read and write on this site.
Oltimer
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Lumberton
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 17):
"Conserving cash?" You mean "not bleeding cash" by leasing out their buses. I am guessing here, but I imagine the lease payments won't cover expenses. Smile

Leasing is a very good move; probably the only "move" they have at this point. It's still far from certain whether they will be granted a license to operate, and I'm sure they have fixed costs that must be covered.

Who knows what's going to happen to VA? At least they're taking delivery and generating income with their busses. They might not ever become an airline, but they could be come a leasing company?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
steeler83
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 44):
When was the last time you took a medicine for a cold? Chances are it was probably manufactured or developed by someone other than a US company. Should those medicines be pulled from US shelves because they were not made here?

How about Bayer Asprin for aches and pains? That is made over in Germany...

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 44):
What about cars? Do you drive a US manufactured car? Should all foreign cars be banned from our roads?

I used to drive a Ford... but I traded it in for a Hyundai. So basically I should hand over my Hyundai for a Ford, GM, or Jeep or Chrysler... (Given what that other guy was saying above.) I chose Hyunday because they were something that I could afford, and they were dependable vehicles. Plus, they were vehicles that had the A-T option. Not too many America-made mid-sized vehicles have that option. The Chevy Cobalt does not; I looked for it when doing a car search...

Ok, I will stop there as I am getting very off topic. I am just adding on to PA747LHR's post, which was a good one! I am all for America made products as well, but if I think that some company overseas has a better product, then I am entitled to select that product, hence why I drive a HYUNDAI!

This guy mentioned that he hates USAir because they fly a lot of Airbus aircraft, A319, A320, A320, and A330s. They selected those aircraft because the 737-NGs would not be ready at the time that US wanted a more advanced piece of equipment. (This was under Stephen Wolf's administration back in the mid-to-late 1990s) There was an investigation underway for the 737 at the time due to the US 427 crash near PIT and other like-737 incidents. That kinda discouraged US from going with more 737s at that point (according to other postson here), and again, the A320s were selected because of that as well as the statement stated above about the 737-NG program. What about NW and UA? They also fly Airbus aircraft. NW has A330s, and UA has A319/A320s for short-medium haul narrow body flights.

If the A320s are more cost-effective, efficient, fit a given airline's business model, etc... then they should be entitled to selecting those products. Forcing airlines (US Airlines) to only select Boeing for their aircraft, that would be anti-American. That, to me, looks like some USSR-esque approach. It's called freedom of choice...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
VictorKilo
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:54 am

VA leasing out aircraft is a smart business decision, but only because of a bad business decision on VA's part. Whether or not VA would be good or bad for US Aviation, or whether or not the US ownership laws are a good idea, or even whether or not VA's ownership structure is ultimately found to be legal, VA mad a bad business decision by creating an ownership structure so complex as to run the risk of being found illegal. VA is spending a pretty large chunk of change to buy Airbus aircraft. To risk that all on a bet that the complex ownership structure would be approved does not seem like a risk I would take.

Quoting N917ME (Reply 18):
If A320 slots open, maybe we may hear YX palce and order to start replacing their MD80's

Or extend it out further - a VA/YX merger. YX fends off FL, takes the VX A320 fleet, uses its "modern" cabin as an extension of the brand equity of their Signature Service, grows in the markets that VX is/was looking to serve (SFO et. al), and possibly rebrands itself as "Virgin America" or even "Virgin Midwest". The combination of the two companies could be done in such a way as to make the surviving ownership structure legal.
 
kstateinALB
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RE: Virgin America Leasing Out Aircraft

Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 42):
hey i haven't herd a single American that wants that airline to fly

Unfortunetly, very wrong. I would love to see them fly. They have every right to attempt business in the U.S. They can go bankrupt in 5 months, or they can live on for years. I don't want to see an attempt go nowhere just because people think America is America, and nobody outside it can build a business.
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