ZBBYLW
Topic Author
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AC 777 Status

Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:26 pm

Hello All,

I have heard that the first AC 777 has already been started being painted. Does anyone have any info on its current status, or better yet some pictures???
Keep the shinny side up!
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 4985
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RE: AC 777 Status

Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:54 pm

Go to http://www.seattle-deliveries.com/777deliveries600-799.htm, you can watch it's progress towards first flight from there.
No doubt a picture will show up there or on http://www.flickr.com/photos/microvolt/ pretty soon after first flight.
 
trvyyz
Posts: 1331
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RE: AC 777 Status

Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:48 pm

My sister's itenary for her flight in may to LHR shows a 77W. I guess the first flight would be around april/may, any insider info?
 
sfuk
Posts: 129
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:01 am

I was looking on AC's website and they are listing a 77W already????
Jumping the gun a bit arn't they?

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/index.html

Stu
 
sebring
Posts: 1321
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting Sfuk (Reply 3):
I was looking on AC's website and they are listing a 77W already????
Jumping the gun a bit arn't they?

People are booking flights on the plane. They are entitled to see a seat map, aren't they?
 
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ERJ170
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:05 am

Does/Can the 777 come with winglets? Just seems wrong if the 787 automatically comes with blended wignlets and the 777 doesnt/can't have them..

just wondering..
Aiming High and going far..
 
sfuk
Posts: 129
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
People are booking flights on the plane. They are entitled to see a seat map, aren't they?

Dude, it's nothing to do with seat maps. The link I provided lists AC's 'Current' fleet

Quote from AC website:

Air Canada's fleet consists of 332 aircraft, including the Air Canada Jazz fleet of 133 aircraft (as of February 2007).


Not that it's really that important......

Stu
 
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RobK
Posts: 3212
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 1):
Go to http://www.seattle-deliveries.com/777deliveries600-799.htm, you can watch it's progress towards first flight from there.

Thanks for the free plug to my site once again  spin , however http://blog.seattle-deliveries.com would be better to track day to day progress. I don't have anything worthy of note on this aircraft yet though until it comes out of paint.

R
 
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WildcatYXU
Posts: 2607
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Sfuk (Reply 3):
was looking on AC's website and they are listing a 77W already????
Jumping the gun a bit arn't they?

Why? The 77W is not a new model and it comes from Everett, not from Toulouse  duck 
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, Saab 340, YAK40
 
warreng24
Posts: 573
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 5):
Does/Can the 777 come with winglets? Just seems wrong if the 787 automatically comes with blended wignlets and the 777 doesnt/can't have them..

just wondering..

The 777-300ER and 777-200LR come with raked wingtips which provide the same benefits as blended winglets.

Therefore those models do not need blended winglets.

The 777-200, -200ER, and -300 do not come with either blended winglets or raked wingtips.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:46 am

Wow can´t wait´til they come to FRA !
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
WestJetYQQ
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:54 am

How many 777s did AC order? How long till AC has all of them? And, How long until the A340s are gone?  Wink
Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
 
ZBBYLW
Topic Author
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 11):

Firm orders for 18, plus options for 18 more. As for the 787 if you were interested, it was 14 with options of up to 60.

Time line I am not sure when they will have all of them, however it could be 2009 as that number seems stuck in my head. Keep in mind if they take the options it will pass that date. The 343 will unfortunatly be gone with the arrival of the 777s  Sad
Keep the shinny side up!
 
Salomon
Posts: 191
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:17 am

You can find a delivery schedule for the first 14 here. I remember reading somewhere that Air Canada had secured leasing for 1 extra 777-300ER (C-FITW) from a leasing company (which one Confused), enabling them to return 1 A340 sooner. Would that mean they will get a total of 19 777s?
Takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory.
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2086
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
People are booking flights on the plane. They are entitled to see a seat map, aren't they?

Air Canada's website lists them as having already taken delivery of 1 777-300ER. In reality, no 777-300ER has yet been delivered to Air Canada. Thats the whole big deal here that apparently no one in this thread has understood.
 
bakersdozen
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:24 pm

RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 14):
Air Canada's website lists them as having already taken delivery of 1 777-300ER. In reality, no 777-300ER has yet been delivered to Air Canada. Thats the whole big deal here that apparently no one in this thread has understood.

Come on, it's their plane, it's being painted. Since people are booking flights on it for next month it only makes sense to add it to their current fleet. I can see the ton of questions now if it wasn't done... "I'm flying on a 777 next month but I checked your fleet and AC doesn't have one. What gives?"

It's not a "big deal" as you say...
 
aircanada014
Posts: 1224
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting Salomon (Reply 13):
leasing for 1 extra 777-300ER (C-FITW) from a leasing company (which one ), enabling them to return 1 A340 sooner. Would that mean they will get a total of 19 777s?

Yes you are correct Salomon, AC did leased out another B777-300ER for 10years so thats a total of 19 firm orders from 18. I remember way back when Boeing introduce the brand new B777 to the world and I knew someday AC will place an order for those B777s.
 
Salomon
Posts: 191
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 14):
Air Canada's website lists them as having already taken delivery of 1 777-300ER. In reality, no 777-300ER has yet been delivered to Air Canada. Thats the whole big deal here that apparently no one in this thread has understood.

Actually, the first 777-300ER appears to have been imported in Canada, as shown here. Now, could this mean the 777 left Paine Field without anyone noticing or are they just ahead in paper work?
Takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory.
 
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RobK
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting Salomon (Reply 17):
Actually, the first 777-300ER appears to have been imported in Canada, as shown here. Now, could this mean the 777 left Paine Field without anyone noticing or are they just ahead in paper work?

 bigthumbsup 

R
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 4985
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 16):
AC did leased out another B777-300ER for 10years

It is the second for delivery, according to the model number that has a "Q8" in it, it signifies ILFC as the leesor.

Quoting Salomon (Reply 17):
or are they just ahead in paper work?

It is not uncommon to file import entries with Canada Customs ahead of time. Truckers do it regularly but usually not this far ahead.
 
RP TPA
Posts: 510
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting Salomon (Reply 13):
I remember reading somewhere that Air Canada had secured leasing for 1 extra 777-300ER (C-FITW) from a leasing company (which one ),

From the Air Canada website:

Air Canada leases additional Boeing 777-300ER to accelerate wide-body fleet renewal and modernization
MONTREAL, April 3 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada announced today it has signed
a 10-year lease for one new Boeing 777-300ER from International Lease Finance
Corporation to accelerate its wide-body fleet renewal and modernization
program.
Air Canada will take delivery of the leased aircraft in May 2007,
bringing to eight the total number of Boeing 777s entering the fleet next
year. Delivery of the leased aircraft will allow Air Canada to accelerate by
nearly two years the return of a leased Airbus A340-300 originally scheduled
to be returned to ILFC in mid-2009. The transaction is part of an ongoing
renewal program that will give Air Canada one of the most modern aircraft
fleets in the world and provide savings on fuel, expanded range capabilities
and other efficiencies.
In November 2005, Air Canada announced that it had concluded agreements
with Boeing for the acquisition of up to 36 Boeing 777s and up to 60 Boeing
787 Dreamliners. The agreements include firm orders for 18 Boeing 777s, plus
purchase rights for 18 more, in a yet-to-be determined mix of the 777 family's
newest models: the 777-300ER, the 777-200LR Worldliner and the 777 freighter.
Delivery of the 777 aircraft is scheduled to commence in March 2007. The
agreements also include firm orders for 14 Boeing 787 Dreamliners, plus
options and purchase rights for an additional 46 aircraft. Air Canada's first
787 is scheduled for delivery in 2010.
 
Simong
Posts: 97
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:06 am

Quoting Sfuk (Reply 3):
was looking on AC's website and they are listing a 77W already????
Jumping the gun a bit arn't they



Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):

People are booking flights on the plane. They are entitled to see a seat map, aren't they?

I think that SFUK was referring to the fact that it states that there is one A/C already in the fleet ..... not the fact that there is a seat map !
BA all the way !!!
 
lh477
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:01 am

I think they might be entering the Air Canada's fleet later then expected. I had booked a return leg of LHR-YYZ on April 7th on 77W, however I got a change in Itinerary this weekend stating it was changed from 77W to 343. I was so depressed, I was so looking forward to 77W, mind you I love the 343, but really was looking forward to that new plane smell.  Smile....Oh well!!!!
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
kearney
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Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:46 am

RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:42 am

The delivery flight of the first 773 is at the end of march. It will fly to vancouver. From vancouver i have been told it will be touring Canada. Id think it will be stoping in YUL and YYZ first.
 
Viscount724
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
Quoting Sfuk (Reply 3):
I was looking on AC's website and they are listing a 77W already????
Jumping the gun a bit arn't they?

People are booking flights on the plane. They are entitled to see a seat map, aren't they?

It's strange that AC already has the seat map for their new 777 in their website but still does not have the seat map for their "Extreme Makeover" 767-300s with the flat-bed seats in J class, although 4 of those aircraft are already in service, with 2 more by the end of March. They show 4 different 763 seating layouts but all involve the the old 5-abreast standard J seats.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/index.html#current
 
mel
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:05 pm

the Star Alliance timetable is showing the following flights as 77W:

AC410 / 01Apr07 12:00-13:10 YYZ-YUL
AC417 / 01Apr07 15:00-16:18 YUL-YYZ

right now it is selling as B763 on aircanada.com ---> hopefully that will change soon.



Matt
www.contrailsphotography.com
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Salomon
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:10 pm



Is it her?

Note the blue on the on tail. She came out 02-16-2007?

Source

[Edited 2007-02-26 05:12:39]
Takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory.
 
mel
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:19 pm

Yes, that is C-FITL.
NO URLS in signature
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:46 pm

man, that's going to look great in AC colors
They're not handing trophies out today
 
ZBBYLW
Topic Author
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:15 pm

I myself can not wait until I see how this bird looks for real in AC colours, should be interesting. The only thing I do not like about all of this, is that the A340-300s will now disappear  Sad.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
beechnut
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RE: AC 777 Status

Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:47 pm

The A340-300 will not disappear...she will just climb slooooooowwwwly into the sunset...

All kidding aside I do like the A340-300. Sort of reminds me of a 60-series DC-8 that plumped up a bit. It has nice traditional airliner lines.

Beech
 
Allee
Posts: 499
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RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:54 am

http://www.flickr.com/photos/microvolt/

A photo of the 77W fully painted is in that link.
 
fly_yhm
Posts: 1647
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RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting BeechNut (Reply 30):
The A340-300 will not disappear...she will just climb slooooooowwwwly into the sunset...

I love how we all crack jokes about the awwwweeeeeeesome performance on the A340.


Wow She looks great even without being able to see all of her.

Cant wait!!!
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
kearney
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RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:46 am

I have some photos, unfortunatly I am not able to share on airliners.net as they are off aircanada's employee site, but I can tell you she is painted and looks amazing!!!
 
sixtyseven
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RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 am

The latest rumour from flight ops is that the 340s will all be gone by years end. Including the -500s.

Initially the -500s were to be the first to go due to the the fact they were the one aircraft that AC did not get a good deal on during CCAA. In fact they are paying double for a -500 than a -300. Harmony out of YVR appeared interested and in an attempt to keep them from "cutting ACs grass" they extended the lease. That is coming to an end.

The word in the 340 fleet is that by the end of the year, the "four holed plastic death jet" will be no more.

AC has seen the light and decided to get something more than a re-invented, fat, under powered DC-8 with glass.

Good on em.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
bakersdozen
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:24 pm

RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 34):
four holed plastic death jet

haha so why is it called that? I'm curious, not offended.
 
legoguy
Posts: 2970
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RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting Allee (Reply 31):
A photo of the 77W fully painted is in that link.

Brilliant looking livery! That will look great in the air! BTW what colour does A/C paint their fuselages?
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
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c172akula
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RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:02 am

Quoting Allee (Reply 31):
A photo of the 77W fully painted is in that link.

She looks good! Can't wait to see a nice unobstructed shot to take it fully in!
 
sebring
Posts: 1321
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RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:19 am

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 34):
The latest rumour from flight ops is that the 340s will all be gone by years end. Including the -500s.

Initially the -500s were to be the first to go due to the the fact they were the one aircraft that AC did not get a good deal on during CCAA. In fact they are paying double for a -500 than a -300. Harmony out of YVR appeared interested and in an attempt to keep them from "cutting ACs grass" they extended the lease. That is coming to an end.

You are, in fact, pulling this info right out of the sky. AC paid cash - US$87 million - for each -500. They are not paying double anything. They are not leased. They extended nothing. AC paid a bargain basement price because Airbus couldn't sell the planes and was afraid AC wouldn't take them because of its creditor protection status afforded by CCAA. However, with the Boeng deal AC doesn't want to be stuck with two of a kind. Naturally, buyers know what AC paid because that info was published, and they have been bargain hunting. It is possible a buyer has come forward to pay AC's price, but AC hasn't been in a hurry to sell the planes for below-market value, especially since Airbus can't say with precision when it will be able to deliver the A350. That overhangs both the new and used large widebody aircraft market, and AC knows that with a little patience, it will get a fair deal.

[Edited 2007-02-26 23:20:40]
 
FighterPilot
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:27 am

RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting Allee (Reply 31):
A photo of the 77W fully painted is in that link.

Wow...... That's awesome. I can't wait to see her in person.  eek 

Cal  airplane 
*Insert Sound Of GE90 Spooling Up Here*
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:53 am

Sebring.

During the second round of cuts during CCAA I spoke with the then VP Operations. He told me that during the restructuring of the leases AC made out better than they ever expected. One of the stipulations was that despite the fact that they were in no position to take delivery of the -500s that had been sitting painted and ready to go in Toulouse was that they HAD to take possession of them, and at the originally negotiated price. The -500 was not selling at all back then and having two sitting around was not good for business.

The -300s were re leased at about 300K per month. The -500s were nearly a million. If AC bought them back then that is something that happened afterwards.

In the end the economics of the airplane were terrible. The advanced range that the airplane was capable of was nearly totally offset by the increase in fuel burn. The reliability of the airplane was attrocious and I guess has finally come around.

To put in in perspective, the 773 will have farther range, the same operating costs yet will cruise at .84 versus the .78 econ speeds that all range numbers airbus provided are predicated on. AC and most operators operate the 340 at .80 to .82 but the increase in burns are way above airbus' "factory numbers."

The -500 was to originally be the first 340 off the lot. The rumor was that HArmony was interested and Milton did not want them to get them so we hung on to them. Either way the traffic we are flying required us to keep them.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 383
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RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:00 am

Oh by the way Sebring. Two of a kind is not the right description. The -500 is a lemon compared to what they are getting in the 777. Nearly 70 more seats, better range, higher speed, two versus four engines etc etc. It's kind of like a pair of aces going up against deuces at a poker table.

The 777 econmics are just above those of a 767, (the 767-300 being the highest yielding airplane in the fleet) vs a 340.

Oh and before people get into a A Vs B sting, the 330 is still an excellent fit on the Atlantic. Good numbers and great cargo capacity without that center tank. I would expect them to stay for even longer than forecast unless the 787 starts showing up in droves.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
chrisa330
Posts: 545
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 10:24 am

RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 40):
During the second round of cuts during CCAA I spoke with the then VP Operations. He told me that during the restructuring of the leases AC made out better than they ever expected. One of the stipulations was that despite the fact that they were in no position to take delivery of the -500s that had been sitting painted and ready to go in Toulouse was that they HAD to take possession of them, and at the originally negotiated price. The -500 was not selling at all back then and having two sitting around was not good for business.

AC are not leasing the -500s. It was in the CCAA legal documents that they paid Airbus $87 million for each frame. As part of the same agreement they got cancellation rights for the -600s they had on order.

Their own MD&A lists the -500s as owned also. Page 9:

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/investor/documents/2006_MDA_q4.pdf
 
beechnut
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:26 am

By two of a kind I think he meant an orphan fleet of only two aircraft.

I have in front of me the Air Canada prospectus that indicates that the A340-500s are indeed owned by Air Canada and were purchased for $174 million (divided by two = $87m), with payments plus interest paid quarterly through 2019.

Sounds like Sebring is spot-on. They are owned, not leased and his price is the correct one.

Beech
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:29 am

Could it be that they leased, then bought them back?

Or is that not in your prospectus.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
AC777LR
Posts: 825
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RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:30 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 36):
Brilliant looking livery! That will look great in the air! BTW what colour does A/C paint their fuselages?

Dave I think its a frosted Green, mint shade.
Member since April 2000
 
sebring
Posts: 1321
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:31 am

Quite correct, Chris. I'm sure SixtySeven is a nice fellow and even bumps into executives from time to time but I discussed these planes at the time with the then CFO who chuckled at how great a deal they were relative to what AC had originally agreed to pay. Keep in mind that AC was the original launch customer for the 345, although with CCAA SQ got them airborne first and so AC did get a good price going in and a further discount to take the two which were parked in Toulouse. AC went to the pilots at the time and asked for a let that would allow them to bring the 345 into the fleet with a wage scale that would make them more economical to operate. After negotiations, they reached a compromise, but AC was no more obliged to take these planes than it was to take the 777 and 787s if the dispute with the pilots had not been circumvented. Now, as to the economics of those planes, it is certainly true that the 777 is a better cost performer than the A345, which is precisely why AC is ordering it. Given AC's costs, a 777-300ER has a 26 percent lower seat mile cost than a 345. And getting rid of the 343 and 345 fleet makes sense, but it still doesn't make the 345 leased aircraft.

As for the rumor of an accelerated retirement of the 340 family, it would make sense if it can be arranged. AC can probably find takers for all the planes, but dropping seven more fins by year-end than originally envisioned would be a big squeeze on capacity. This winter, AC is operating 12 Airbus 340 family aircraft. It has trimmed a couple of 767-300s (returned to lessors). If AC removed all of these 12 planes by next winter, it would have only eight replacement 777s in place. Now, perhaps AC has been able to get earlier delivery dates for some of its 2008 777 deliveries. If more planes were moved into Q1 2008, AC could make it through next winter with as few as 10 777s, even if there were as few as eight in January. But this would be a lot tighter than forecast, and tighter than the airline had contemplated considering that next winter, the A330s will be going in one-by-one for their interior refit and possibly their first heavy checks.

[Edited 2007-02-27 00:47:28]
 
cayman
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:28 am

RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 40):
One of the stipulations was that despite the fact that they were in no position to take delivery of the -500s that had been sitting painted and ready to go in Toulouse was that they HAD to take possession of them, and at the originally negotiated price

If someone actually told you that it is incredibly false information. In the CCAA procedure nobody would "make" them take anything, other than the court itself, and you can be absolutely certain that no Canadian or foreign court did or would even have had basis to "make" them take it at that price. Other creditors in the CCAA process would have stopped that in a heartbeat as a preferential payment to a 3rd party creditor, it would have been void ab initio.

You obviously don't care for the Airbuses and are entitiled to your views, but let's keep some sembalnce of fact in this thread.
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:33 am

Quoting AC777LR (Reply 45):
Quoting Legoguy (Reply 36):
Brilliant looking livery! That will look great in the air! BTW what colour does A/C paint their fuselages?

Dave I think its a frosted Green, mint shade

The colour swatch is #3A45G - Regurgitated Aquafresh from the Benjamin Moore 'Fluid' series.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
sebring
Posts: 1321
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: AC 777 Status

Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 44):
Could it be that they leased, then bought them back?

Or is that not in your prospectus.

Nope, I remember the purchase details at the time, posted them here on a.net at the time. The planes have always been owned. Usually what happens with aircraft purchases is that an airline is granted vendor financing from a country's export bank backed by a commercial banking syndicate, but airlines often seek their own capital leasing structures which they use instead. The export financing becomes backstop financing. AC prefers capital leases to operating leases (the latter are straight rentals from a third party owner), because the monthy rental is less and usually includes a purchase option - often at Year 12 - that lets them acquire the plane cheaply. AC typically contributes some equity on each capital lease - that's what it did with the Embraers, I believe the equity contribution is 15%, and plans to do with all Boeing widebodies. The equity, coming from cash on hand, further reduces the monthly rent payment and creates tax advantages.

However, with the 345s, AC was not credit worthy at the time, and had to pay cash for both planes. The debt is segregated on the books, and since AC has no long term interest in the planes, it has no particular desire to make a long-term sale-lease commitment to them.

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