bkkair
Posts: 384
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TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:25 am

From The Bangkok Post on 26 February

Effective 1 May 2007, TG will increase to daily nonstops from BKK to both JFK and LAX, utilizing 4 A340-500 aircraft.

Highlights from the article


  • Thai lost US$142 Million on flights to the United States in 2006
  • US flights, whether non-stop or with a stop along the way will never make money, due to price competition
  • Switching from A345’s to 744’s, A340-600’s or 772ER’s will not stem the losses
  • Options include having the JFK flights stop in PEK or PVG and the LAX flights stop at ICN.
  • Singapore flights from SIN-JFK are also losing money.
  • Russian over flight fees are US$20,000 per flight.
  • Thai is looking for a way for these flights to earn money but can’t find a way out.
  • Cabin factor is 80% to 90% on the USA flights.
  • The A340-500 is not economical on routes shorter than these Ultra Long Haul flights.
  • Selling the 4 A340-500’s is not an option as they are only 2 years old and would have to be sold at a heavy discount.

Bottom line: Thai says it may be better off keeping the US flights running at a loss for the sake of supporting its network and connectivity, feeding traffic from North America to other profitable routes.

Thai made a profit of about US$114 Million in the latest quarter ending 31 Dec 2006.
 
jeffrysky
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:41 am

Quoting Bkkair (Thread starter):
Singapore flights from SIN-JFK are also losing money

I guess the article was referring to SQ's non-stop SIN-EWR route, and it has been no secret that the flight operates on a very slim margin. Probably sends a message out to people, especially proponents of LHR-SYD nonstops, that operating ultra-longhauls is a balance on the knife's edge between profitability and maintaining the 3 'C's convenience/connectivity/comfort for customers.

Good job summarising the article otherwise.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:43 am

It was announced earlier about JFK going daily but this is the first I've heard about LAX.

This news was announced before the president of Thai mentioned the routes will go one-stop eventually.
No Vueling No Party
 
HB-IWC
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:02 pm

And they didn't know all of this before? SQ was already operating its nonstop US services when TG was still nowhere. What's more, transpacific traffic has traditionally been lower yielding to begin with. It goes to show that TG is lacking the human resources to run a truly professional operation. Also this solution of continuing the A345 nonstop operation although it is bleeding money because there is no alternative to deploy the A345 and selling the aircraft is supposedly not an option? What a joke.

The truth is that TG was falling over itself to start its own nonstop US operations after SQ announced similar plans. The TG operation is nothing more than a cheap copy cat of SQ's. That is the reason why, for reasons that are beyond me, TG didn't put a 4- or 8-seat F-cabin in these A345s: SQ also operates without F-cabin.
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:35 pm

Quoting JeffrySkY (Reply 1):
I guess the article was referring to SQ's non-stop SIN-EWR route, and it has been no secret that the flight operates on a very slim margin.

The SIN-FRA-JFK is pretty marginal too.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting Ex_SQer (Reply 4):
The SIN-FRA-JFK is pretty marginal too.

I believe this route is actually a very high premium market for the airline.
No Vueling No Party
 
GneissGuy
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:00 pm

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 5):
Quoting Ex_SQer (Reply 4):
The SIN-FRA-JFK is pretty marginal too.

I believe this route is actually a very high premium market for the airline.

SIN-FRA-JFK is HUGE. I think its one of SQ's most profitable routes.
 
Nimish
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:21 pm

Are the timings to change at all or will they continue to use the existing timings (useless for connectivity to/from India)
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6thfreedom
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:54 pm

Quoting Bkkair (Thread starter):
Selling the 4 A340-500’s is not an option as they are only 2 years old and would have to be sold at a heavy discount.

Have they discussed this with EY?
I'm sure EY and a number of other 'new'middle east airlines would take these aircraft at short notice.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 7):
useless for connectivity to/from India

The overall connectivity and hub organization issue needs some serious rethinking...
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:32 pm

Quoting GneissGuy (Reply 6):

SIN-FRA-JFK is HUGE. I think its one of SQ's most profitable routes.

Overall SIN-FRA v.v. suffers from too much capacity, both direct and indirect, thus affecting yields. There is good business traffic, so SQ operates more frequencies on the route. However, with all these frequencies, SQ cannot fill the seats in Y at a decent price. So, they have to offer some very low fares in the back to fill two flights per day, thus bringing down yields. CDG and ZRH also suffered from the same problem, although I imagine the 77W has fixed some of that, as I imagine it will for SQ326/325.

SIN-FRA on SQ26 does better than SQ326 because of better departure/arrival timings. SQ325 does better than SQ25 for FRA-SIN because SQ325 offers better departure timings thus attracting more premium traffic.

FRA-JFK v.v. is not strong. As a third country carrier with only one flight per day on the route competing with home carriers offering multiple frequencies, SQ has to charge some pretty low fares.

SIN-JFK v.v. - I understand that yields today have been affected by the introduction of the nonstops; premium fares get channeled to the nonstops, cheaper fares get dumped on SQ26/25.

When I was with SQ, SQ26/25 were running at around breakeven. I can't imagine it being any better today. This is also a very expensive route to operate, made worse by SQ choosing a long ground time (almost 12 hours) at JFK to offer better connectivity.

Anyway I hate to hijack a thread about TG. If anyone wants to set up a separate thread on this, please feel free to do so.
 
thaia345
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 3):
That is the reason why, for reasons that are beyond me, TG didn't put a 4- or 8-seat F-cabin in these A345s

Yes, I truly agree with you on that HB-IWC, I for one usually travel in F especially on my US routes. But since the introduction of TG's A345 without F cabins, I am not too happy about it and so are many other passengers that I have spoken too. I am definitely happy if TG uses the A346 on the LAX route with a 1 stop in ICN. Don't get me wrong, I love the A345 as an aircraft and its capability just not too happy about the seat selection and layout on board, both for TG and SQ.

Thai A345
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Bkkair (Thread starter):
Singapore flights from SIN-JFK are also losing money.

How do they claim to know this?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
bkkair
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:52 am

To clarify what the article said:

SQ is losing money on the nonstops from SIN-NYC (meaning SIN-EWR). .

The article never mentioned or implied that SIN-FRA-JFK was losing money.

Who knows where the writer of the article in The Bangkok Post got this information. Although there have been many posts about ULH flights bleeding money on Airliners.net, we won't know if SQ is losing money unless SQ issues a press release about this, which is unlikely.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting Bkkair (Reply 13):

Who knows where the writer of the article in The Bangkok Post got this information.

which is why it, like most things concerning that nation's aviation-related ops (or in this case, uncorroborated claims about another's on its behalf) should be taken with a grain....
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ohsopc
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 3):
And they didn't know all of this before? SQ was already operating its nonstop US services when TG was still nowhere. What's more, transpacific traffic has traditionally been lower yielding to begin with. It goes to show that TG is lacking the human resources to run a truly professional operation. Also this solution of continuing the A345 nonstop operation although it is bleeding money because there is no alternative to deploy the A345 and selling the aircraft is supposedly not an option? What a joke.

The truth is that TG was falling over itself to start its own nonstop US operations after SQ announced similar plans. The TG operation is nothing more than a cheap copy cat of SQ's. That is the reason why, for reasons that are beyond me, TG didn't put a 4- or 8-seat F-cabin in these A345s: SQ also operates without F-cabin.

Well TG ordered the A345 before SQ got their A345 and started to fly the route. So how did you suggest TG to figure out that the route will be loss making when SQ can't even figure it out themselves because they haven't flown it YET.

The interim solution is that they will increase the fare to offset the loss, which is probably a good idea since they have high cabin factor load and their price is well well well below SQ's anyways.

A cheap copy cat of SQ? SQ just launched Milan in response to the very very popular TG Bkk-Milan route. Is SQ a cheap copy cat of TG too then?
Maybe TG didn't put the F seats in - because they have to - because they are too heavy for these flights (which happens to be the same reasons that SQ don't have F in their 345 either)

Quoting Bkkair (Reply 13):
Who knows where the writer of the article in The Bangkok Post got this information. Although there have been many posts about ULH flights bleeding money on Airliners.net, we won't know if SQ is losing money unless SQ issues a press release about this, which is unlikely.

They did issue a statement about that.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting ThaiA345 (Reply 11):
I am definitely happy if TG uses the A346 on the LAX route with a 1 stop in ICN. Don't get me wrong, I love the A345 as an aircraft and its capability just not too happy about the seat selection and layout on board, both for TG and SQ.

If TG does BKK-ICN-LAX, it wont work. There is ample capacity from LAX-ICN. I would be happy with a stop on the way from BKK-LAX, but it shouldnt be ICN. They should try PVG. Given the size of the market, LAX is underserved to China whereas there is lots of service to ICN. Right now the only option from LAX-PVG is China Eastern.
It is what it is...
 
expressjetphx
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 3):
That is the reason why, for reasons that are beyond me, TG didn't put a 4- or 8-seat F-cabin in these A345s: SQ also operates without F-cabin.

SQ's (and presumably TG's as well) F seats were too heavy for the ultra-long haul configuration, and would have restricted range making the nonstops impossible.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting Expressjetphx (Reply 17):
SQ's (and presumably TG's as well) F seats were too heavy for the ultra-long haul configuration

...on an A345
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ohsopc
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 18):
...on an A345

which was the only aircraft available at that time.
 
kaitak744
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:56 am

Quoting JeffrySkY (Reply 1):
Probably sends a message out to people, especially proponents of LHR-SYD nonstops, that operating ultra-longhauls is a balance on the knife's edge between profitability and maintaining the 3 'C's convenience/connectivity/comfort for customers.

The main problem is when you put around 200 passengers in an aircraft that is meant to seat over 300. The A340-500 is just a bad aircraft. The airlines and their routes show it. The 777-200LR can do SIN-EWR in SQ's new 3 class layout even with a lot of cargo.

Quoting GneissGuy (Reply 6):
SIN-FRA-JFK is HUGE. I think its one of SQ's most profitable routes.

Just a side note: Do you think the SIN-FRA-JFK-FRA-SIN route will be replaced by the 777-300ER or A380?

Back to TG:

Besides BKK-ZRH, where do TG's A340-600s currently fly?
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 20):
Just a side note: Do you think the SIN-FRA-JFK-FRA-SIN route will be replaced by the 777-300ER or A380?

There was talk earlier when the 777-300ER was first introduced to CDG that FRA-JFK would be seeing the 777-300ER. It has since become clear that SIN-FRA will see the 777-300ER but the SIN-FRA-JFK flight will by the 747-400.

There was also mention that the SIN-FRA-JFK route could be an A380.
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Ryanair!!!
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:18 am

TG lost out on its competitive edge by not having daily flights. Now with this change, perhaps they can now compete with SQ on better grounds.
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malaysia
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:26 am

Daily to LAX! I dont have to worry about adjusting my days off anymore Big grin
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planetime
Posts: 612
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:41 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 21):
There was talk earlier when the 777-300ER was first introduced to CDG that FRA-JFK would be seeing the 777-300ER. It has since become clear that SIN-FRA will see the 777-300ER but the SIN-FRA-JFK flight will by the 747-400.

There is no talk of that becoming true. 1 of the 3 flights to LAX the 777-200ER will become a 777-300ER this summer, along with one the flights to SFO.

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 21):
There was also mention that the SIN-FRA-JFK route could be an A380.

Maybe but I see SQ putting the 380 on the LAX and SFO sector before JFK.
 
kaitak744
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting Planetime (Reply 24):
There is no talk of that becoming true. 1 of the 3 flights to LAX the 777-200ER will become a 777-300ER this summer, along with one the flights to SFO.



Quoting Planetime (Reply 24):
Maybe but I see SQ putting the 380 on the LAX and SFO sector before JFK.

I formulated my own theory about SQ's future long haul routes:

-19 747-400 aircraft with routes: 3xLHR, 3xSYD, FRA, FRA-JFK, NRT-LAX, HKG-SFO to be replaced 1-1 by 19 A380 on order.
-15 777-200ER aircraft: to be replaced 1-1 by 15 777-300ER.
-4 remaining 777-300ERs will fill (have filled) CDG and ZRH.
-The 777-200ERs being "replaced" by the 777-300ER will not leave the fleet. They will actually be used to replace the intra-Asia 747-400s which are currently leaving the fleet.

This way, all of Singapore's long haul routes (except A340-500) receive Singapore's new seats and products (ie: all A380 and 77W).
 
GneissGuy
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 20):
Quoting GneissGuy (Reply 6):
SIN-FRA-JFK is HUGE. I think its one of SQ's most profitable routes.

Just a side note: Do you think the SIN-FRA-JFK-FRA-SIN route will be replaced by the 777-300ER or A380?

Eventually it will be replaced by the A380. They wanna get rid of the 747s asap.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:48 pm

Quoting GneissGuy (Reply 26):
Eventually it will be replaced by the A380. They wanna get rid of the 747s asap.

I'm leaning towards the 77W from what I've heard on here. I'd say the SIN-FRA flight that will get the 77W soon will go A380 eventually or like others have said maybe FRA will get a 3rd daily all with 77W's.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 25):
-19 747-400 aircraft with routes: 3xLHR, 3xSYD, FRA, FRA-JFK, NRT-LAX, HKG-SFO to be replaced 1-1 by 19 A380 on order.

Add MEL to that with atleast 1 daily A380 maybe 2 and like I said take out FRA-JFK.


As for TG, why did they even buy the A340 and the 772ER? Sure they had A330's and regional 777's but surely for long haul they should have gone for 1 type. The A346 is very comfortable but I also love the 777. The 777 probably would have been the better choice of the 2 for long haul.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 16):
If TG does BKK-ICN-LAX, it wont work. There is ample capacity from LAX-ICN. I would be happy with a stop on the way from BKK-LAX, but it shouldnt be ICN. They should try PVG. Given the size of the market, LAX is underserved to China whereas there is lots of service to ICN. Right now the only option from LAX-PVG is China Eastern.

Only KE do ICN-LAX they could do with some competition I think.
 
kaitak744
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 27):
Only KE do ICN-LAX they could do with some competition I think.

Asiana?

There are a total of at least 5 daily flights between the 2 airlines. Los Angeles has the world's largest Korean population outside Asia, and the market is huge. Again, for some stupid reason, no U.S. airline flies LAX-ICN....
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:05 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 25):
19 747-400 aircraft with routes: 3xLHR, 3xSYD, FRA, FRA-JFK, NRT-LAX, HKG-SFO to be replaced 1-1 by 19 A380 on order.
-15 777-200ER aircraft: to be replaced 1-1 by 15 777-300ER.
-4 remaining 777-300ERs will fill (have filled) CDG and ZRH.
-The 777-200ERs being "replaced" by the 777-300ER will not leave the fleet. They will actually be used to replace the intra-Asia 747-400s which are currently leaving the fleet.

This way, all of Singapore's long haul routes (except A340-500) receive Singapore's new seats and products (ie: all A380 and 77W).

Keep in mind that SQ has also publically flipflopped on their potential acquisition of the 772LR yet again. Could get interesting.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:09 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 28):
Asiana?

Yes of course, not sure how I forgot them. They do 10 weekly by the looks of it with a mixture of 744, 74M and 772 flights. KE do 21 weekly in the Northern Winter and 24 weekly in the Northern summer with a daily 772 via NRT and the rest 744's non stop.
 
kaitak744
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 29):
Keep in mind that SQ has also publically flipflopped on their potential acquisition of the 772LR yet again. Could get interesting.

If Singapore wanted to order the 777-200LR, they would have. Slots are filling up. Plus, the A340-500 is worth $5 in the used aircraft market, so they can't get much there. SQ's long term A340-500 replacement is likely the 787-9. It can do SIN-EWR with roughly 200 pax and more cargo than the A340-500.
 
AKLDELNonstop
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:49 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 20):
Besides BKK-ZRH, where do TG's A340-600s currently fly?

AFAIK, BKK-AKL and BKK-MEL. This might have changed though. They also fly 773s to AKL sometimes
 
VHVXB
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 32):
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 20):
Besides BKK-ZRH, where do TG's A340-600s currently fly?

AFAIK, BKK-AKL and BKK-MEL. This might have changed though. They also fly 773s to AKL sometimes

JNB as well
 
chrisrad
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:28 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 32):
AFAIK, BKK-AKL and BKK-MEL. This might have changed though.

We get the new 772ER's at MEL now
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ZK-NBT
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 32):
AFAIK, BKK-AKL and BKK-MEL. This might have changed though. They also fly 773s to AKL sometimes

AKL hasn't seen a TG 773 since 2001, the 346's have been here since October 2005 with the odd 345.

TG346's now fly
BKK-AKL
BKK-ZRH
BKK-JNB
BKK-MUC

They appear on some intra Asia flights aswell from time to time.
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2084
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting Bkkair (Thread starter):
* The A340-500 is not economical on routes shorter than these Ultra Long Haul flights.

Tell that to Emirates. They fly A340-500s on routes as short as DXB-LHR. They make money.


Quoting Bkkair (Thread starter):
* Selling the 4 A340-500’s is not an option as they are only 2 years old and would have to be sold at a heavy discount.

Tell that to Air Canada, they are selling theirs aren't they?

Quoting Bkkair (Thread starter):
Thai is looking for a way for these flights to earn money but can’t find a way out.

How about putting in a First class??

Quoting Bkkair (Thread starter):
Cabin factor is 80% to 90% on the USA flights.

A load factor of 80-90% is definitely considered good by any airline's standards. The reason Thai can't make this route work has nothing to do with the route or the aircraft. It is Thai's problem. (By the way, what is the cargo load factor on BKK-USA flights?)


They should never have dumped the 747s from the LAX flights. Those planes were always over 90% full, and they made a mighty good profit from them. Given that Los Angeles has the largest Thai population out side Thailand, they should have no problem filling daily A380 flights and making huge profits.

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 35):
TG346's now fly
BKK-AKL
BKK-ZRH
BKK-JNB
BKK-MUC

That doesn't leave any open to flying BKK-USA with one stop. My suggestion: install first class on the A340-500s, put them on BKK-MUC and BKK-JNB. Put the A340-600s on BKK-AKL, BKK-ZRH, BKK-PVG-LAX, BKK-PVG-JFK.

On the other hand, if they are able to sell the A340-500s: order 777-200LRs and party Smile.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 36):
That doesn't leave any open to flying BKK-USA with one stop. My suggestion: install first class on the A340-500s, put them on BKK-MUC and BKK-JNB. Put the A340-600s on BKK-AKL, BKK-ZRH, BKK-PVG-LAX, BKK-PVG-JFK.

No it doesn't, I'd install first on the A345's and put them on AKL and JNB myslf, AKL doesn't seem to be doing to well with the high J 346. Make the 345's 8F 30J 220Y, and TG don't have any routes other than LHR, FRA, CDG and SYD that need 60J on the A346 but these routes require the capacity of the 744.

Interesting SYD flights will increase soon to 19 weekly with the extra 5 flights being 2 class 772ER's. Plus 1 744 flight routing BKK-SYD-BNE-BKK as reported in another thread. I'd have thought they should put the 346 to SYD and the 777 to AKL myself, even though SYD has lots of Premium seats with 2 744's.
 
malaysia
Posts: 2615
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RE: TG Goes Double Daily To US Despite Staggering Loss

Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:32 am

BKK-PVG-JFK! hmm I get an idea, US should opt the A340-500 for PHL-PVG-BKK  Smile Its a Star Alliance Carrier and can help TG domestically I mean back in Thailand not in the US Big grin
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens

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