n1786b
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Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:38 pm

SNIP

SYDNEY, Feb 27 (Reuters) - Australia's Qantas Airways Ltd. said on Tuesday it has selected General Electric's GEnx engine for its fleet of up to 115 Boeing (BA.N: Quote, Profile , Research) 787 aircraft.

Qantas said it had made an initial order for 45 aircraft ship sets, valued at A$2 billion ($1.6 billion) in capital and maintenance costs over the life of the engines.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...17_SYU001819&type=comktNews&rpc=44


- N1786B
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:42 pm

Well, someone has to say it: major win for GE and a significant market share boost
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:45 pm

Congrats to GE on landing another great customer for their engines.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
cartoonranger
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:22 pm

HUGE blow to RR  Sad Well done GE. Can't help but think that RR need a big order from someone like BA and their long haul replacement to soften this one.
 
PEET7G
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:40 pm

Wow... I never taught GE will land this order! Of course I always hoped for them, but never really believed they had big chances! I know QF was always a dual engine carrier with RR and GE, but somehow always taught RR was a bigger runner up in this contest!

Congrats GE on a grand race well fought, and to Qantas to their new engines  bigthumbsup 
Peet7G
 
pilotdude09
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:44 pm

Good news, i personally saw this coming.

Good news for GE and Qantas. Something positive for once!
Qantas, Still calling Australia Home.........
 
jacobin777
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:06 pm

Congratulations to GE...I was a bit surprised at this win also....


....I'm sure PM won't be happy about this.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:11 pm

I wonder if somewhere in all this guff about performance and environmental impact if GE finance might have a paw in the takeover bid.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:12 pm

Indeed a major win for GE. Congrats to them and to QF, I really didn't expect RR to lose this one.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
....I'm sure PM won't be happy about this.....

On the bright side, if QF thinks they're not satisfied, they can still re-engine them with Rollers, thanks to the common pylon the 787 is due to use (along with the software mods that might have to be performed).
 
sixtyseven
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:37 pm

GE stands for "good everytime"........

I remember doing a course at Long Beach on the DC-10 when a GE guy came in to give us the course on the GE engine. He said the GE engine was good for every start no matter the situation and that you would get a stabilized start in 40 seconds........ If you didn't, get a new watch.

GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry. They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

The funny thing is, you won't find an argument either.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
domokun
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:58 pm

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
The funny thing is, you won't find an argument either.

... I just hope I am not near one if it decides to seperate into a smaller fragments (GE CF6-80A2)  Smile
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:08 pm

This was coming for some time!! RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck... you try to funny business with an airline and the end result is they overlook you when it comes to order time!
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
PEET7G
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:13 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
This was coming for some time!! RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck... you try to funny business with an airline and the end result is they overlook you when it comes to order time!

In that case... no surprise  Smile
Peet7G
 
NYC777
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:28 pm

Well since QF selected the GEnx for their 787 it's a foregone conclusion that Air Pacific will also select the same engines for their 5+3 787s.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:46 pm

Huge win for GE! I thought for sure RR was going to win this, even though the GEnx is clearly the better engine (I should note I'm interning at GE right now :P).

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry. They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

Damn straight.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:53 pm

In terms of head-to-head competitions on wide body engine selections, there isn't much left is there? AFAIK, SQ's 789 order is the largest pending. Didn't GE win the UPS 767 deal?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry

A larger feather in the cap of the people of Cincinnati, OH where GEAC is located.
One Nation Under God
 
raggi
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 15):
In terms of head-to-head competitions on wide body engine selections, there isn't much left is there? AFAIK, SQ's 789 order is the largest pending. Didn't GE win the UPS 767 deal?

UPS did indeed get the UPS 767 order, but that was hardly a surprise.

QF was a major win for GE, for sure!

I bet SQ will select Trents for their 789s though.



raggi
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Lumberton
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Raggi (Reply 17):
I bet SQ will select Trents for their 789s though

I agree with you, Trents for SQ's 789s. If SQ would select GE that would be a stunner. But then again, isn't QF's selection?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Raggi (Reply 17):
UPS did indeed get the UPS 767 order, but that was hardly a surprise.

I certainly hope so, it'd be weird if UPS ordered 27 767s for FedEx.  Wink
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):

....I'm sure PM won't be happy about this.....

 Sad No he won't be.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

I'll admit they are leaving Pratt in the dust. RR has a well respected product and loyal customers.

Scuttlebutt in the industry has been that the GEnX has better economics on runs 5000nm+ than the Trent 1000. So it doesn't suprise me that QF went GE. Well ok, a little...

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck...

If true (sorry, I don't have anything to verify), than RR just pulled a Pratt and killed off one customers loyalty for a decade.

The only "issue" I see with the Trent 1000 is the decision to have so few turbine stages powering the compressors. Quite bluntly, the low OPR from that decision increases fuel burn. So RR would be at a disadvantage on long hauls. On shorter hauls, the Trent has great economics (better than the GE). I think this order was won on economics, pure economics. But if RR is playing tricks with QF (a la Pratt in their heyday)... Expect customers to revolt.

Lightsaber
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gigneil
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 4):
I know QF was always a dual engine carrier with RR and GE, but somehow always taught RR was a bigger runner up in this contest!

Not always... its really been just recently that they've added some GEs.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
The funny thing is, you won't find an argument either.

Yeah, you will. Lots of them in fact. RR has always been very successful and a lot of people have selected their engines. The Trent is the leading engine on the A330, and was the leader on the 777 for many many years.

NS
 
raggi
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
But then again, isn't QF's selection?

Well, it's not a total bombshell IMO. QF have GE on some 744s, their 744ERs, their 763s (excluding the leased BA birds), and their A330s, so they are very far from married to RR.

SQ, on the other hand will, when the 744 is retired, be all Rolls, except the 77W, with A333, 345, 388, 772/3 all with RR.


Still no comment from PM. Hope he didn't pass out when he read the news!


raggi
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
Scuttlebutt in the industry has been that the GEnX has better economics on runs 5000nm+ than the Trent 1000.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
So RR would be at a disadvantage on long hauls.

That doesn't exactly bode well for RR powering an airliner optimized for 5000+nm missions, does it?

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
On shorter hauls, the Trent has great economics (better than the GE).

RR might just become a big booster of the 787-3 for Chinese and Indian domestic use...  angel 
 
ZKNZA
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry. They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

They are all good engines,just different.GE & RR are leaving PW in a cloud of dust because PW seems to be intent on focusing on military contracts.
I think If GE didn't demand exclusivity on the 777LR/ER programme, RR and GE would be more evenly matched with aero engine orders.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 14):
Huge win for GE! I thought for sure RR was going to win this, even though the GEnx is clearly the better engine (I should note I'm interning at GE right now :P).

How do you know that the Genx is clearly the better engine?Clearly you dont, because there are no aircraft flying with them commercially at present.
Until the 787 is in service for a few years, with a few airlines, you cant really comment on whats a better engine, as no reliable in service data is available.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
This was coming for some time!! RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck... you try to funny business with an airline and the end result is they overlook you when it comes to order time!

Yes you cant do this sort of thing, if you want to win orders
This is now a common theme in the industry aero engine makers are trying to sell a whole aftermarket package or forcing airlines to get their engines overhauled at "centre's of excellence" so that engine makers are making more money on after-sales support.
This is part of the way the MRO world is evolving, where scale is everything and if you dont have it, you will find it increasingly difficult to compete.
 
boeing767-300
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting Raggi (Reply 17):
QF was a major win for GE, for sure!

I bet SQ will select Trents for their 789s though.

I am not so sure. Given the success of the GE90-115B in comparison to Trents on 777s I would not be suprised to see SQ go for GEnx.

The GE exclusivity on 777X has really paid dividends with many large RR customers having to aquire GE (namely EK CX and SQ) in large amounts of 77W.

If the GEnx has the same durable economical performance of the the GE 90 then I expect GE to win the majority of 787 orders. There is no doubt the new GEs are gaining a formidable reputation.

QF have now ordered the right engine as well as the right aircraft. Well done, great for QF great for GE
 
gigneil
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 25):
Given the success of the GE90-115B in comparison to Trents on 777s I would not be suprised to see SQ go for GEnx.

It was successful in terms of Boeing forcing the issue on their customers.

A lot of Trent customers will tell you they love their engines and would not have switched had they not been told they must.

NS
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:31 am

Since it doesn't look like it has been quantified here, the market share of the respective engine options took a fairly dramatic swing with the Qantas selection.

BEFORE QANTAS SELECTION
Undecided - 168 aircraft (37%)
GEnx - 168 aircraft (37%)
Rolls Royce Trent 1000 - 116 aircraft (26%)

AFTER QANTAS SELECTION
GEnx - 213 aircraft (47%)
Undecided - 123 aircraft (27%)
Rolls Royce Trent 1000 - 116 aircraft (26%)

There are still a large number of orders pending engine selection, and new customers yet to be signed fo the 787 program. But with another 312 GEnx engines sold to power the 78 747-8 on order, General Electric does seem to be doing much better than Rolls Royce in selling their latests engine.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 26):
It was successful in terms of Boeing forcing the issue on their customers.

The engine manufacturers controlled the process, not Boeing. GE and PW demanded exclusivity and while RR was willing to share, they were not willing to help fund the 772LR and 773ER development (at least to the level GE was).

Boeing was only going to get one engine manufacturer, no matter what. As such, they decided to take the one that best mitigated the risk of the program, even if that mitigation was just development help.
 
albird87
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Cartoonranger (Reply 3):
RR need a big order from someone like BA and their long haul replacement to soften this one.

wait till AA order around 100 of them with Rollers engines!! That will help RR.
(please AA get some money and grab some slots!!)
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting ZKNZA (Reply 24):
How do you know that the Genx is clearly the better engine?Clearly you dont, because there are no aircraft flying with them commercially at present.
Until the 787 is in service for a few years, with a few airlines, you cant really comment on whats a better engine, as no reliable in service data is available.

I was making fun of the fact that I work for GE (although a different business, so no connections)...
 
aa1818
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:24 am

Could their selection of GE over their long-standing engine supplier RR be an indication of more things to come...such as 777s or 748's which are exclusively GE??????

Totally Tropical
AA1818
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BA787
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
GE stands for "good everytime

and RR stands for Rugged + Reliable



Shame for RR  Sad They really do need a big order
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:30 am

A big win for GE, I thought the Aussies owed us one after we let them have the Ashes back!

It is interesting looking back, that RR dominated the early orders on the 787, while GE had a monopoly on the early A350s (the first 120 deliveries?).

Subsequently, GE has dominated subsequent 787 orders (I was very surprised that they won most of the Chinese orders, bearing in mind all their A330s are/will be RR powered) but has gone cold on the A350. Their insistence on not powering the A350-1000 gives RR a great chance to be the main engine on the A350.

As SQ have ordered both 787 and A350, and bearing in mind their RR jv maintenance company, I'd be surprised if they didn't choose RR.
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
jbernie
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 27):
Since it doesn't look like it has been quantified here, the market share of the respective engine options took a fairly dramatic swing with the Qantas selection.

Thanks DfwR. I was looking for that info. I wonder how QF making this selection will influence the decisions of others. I don't see SQ being swayed from whatever is in their best interest, but some other airlines may go with the winning team so to speak.

Has Air NZ made any 787 orders or engine selections? QF going GE could influence them as they have been looking at reducing costs together of late. Or did they go 777?

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 33):
A big win for GE, I thought the Aussies owed us one after we let them have the Ashes back!

Now now, we obliged and played like rubbish in the one day final to help ease the pain of your Ashes performance  Wink
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 34):
Has Air NZ made any 787 orders or engine selections? QF going GE could influence them as they have been looking at reducing costs together of late. Or did they go 777?

Air New Zealand was one of the first airlines to order the 787, well before QF made their order and engine selection. They have ordered their 787 with Rolls Royce Trent 1000 engines.

QF also ordered four 777-200ER with their initial 787-8 order in June 2004 that have been delivered with Rolls Royce Trent 800 engines.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 33):
Their insistence on not powering the A350-1000 gives RR a great chance to be the main engine on the A350.

That's an interesting interpretation of the truth...  Wink
 
nirvarma
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 35):
QF also ordered four 777-200ER with their initial 787-8 order in June 2004 that have been delivered with Rolls Royce Trent 800 engines.

I guess you meant NZ?

NV
 
Norcal773
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:49 am

Still waiting on PM's response to these news..lol
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
Korg747
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:02 am

Can anyone say 747-8?
Please excuse my English!
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 29):
wait till AA order around 100 of them with Rollers engines!! That will help RR.
(please AA get some money and grab some slots!!)

I agree, AA is a loyal RR customer.

However, I still expect that GE will have a lead. Delta, the largest 767 operator, is likely to place an order for the 787 after they exit bankruptcy. Unless Delta and NW merge, I am pretty sure that Delta will choose GE. GE has been aiding Delta in bankruptcy, and in addition, Delta has some 777-200LRs on order which will use GE engines. Delta already operates many GE-powered 767s, while only the 777-200ERs are RR-powered. The MD-90s also use IAE engines, which RR is a part of, but the MD-90 wasn't offered with anything else. Delta's L-1011s were also all RR-powered, but once again, there were no other options.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
Norcal773
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 39):
Delta has some 777-200LRs on order which will use GE engines.

Not that they have a choice here.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 39):
However, I still expect that GE will have a lead. Delta, the largest 767 operator, is likely to place an order for the 787 after they exit bankruptcy. Unless Delta and NW merge, I am pretty sure that Delta will choose GE.

i would imagine whether they merge or not, DL will select GE for its 787 engines if they order the plane.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
luke7e7
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:12 am

size wise, which engine is bigger, GEnX or Trent1000? , I would think GE, but i could be wrong.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:23 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 21):
Quoting PEET7G (Reply 4):
I know QF was always a dual engine carrier with RR and GE, but somehow always taught RR was a bigger runner up in this contest!

Not always... its really been just recently that they've added some GEs.

QF has ALWAYS been a dual engine carrier since the B742s started arriving with RR engines. Then it was PW/RR, now its RR/GE. This order will keep it RR/GE because QF will fly the RR Trent on its A380s; 80 engines v GEs 90 engines on B787s ON CURRENT ORDERS.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
wjcandee
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
He said the GE engine was good for every start no matter the situation and that you would get a stabilized start in 40 seconds........

Tell that to those Pinnacle pilots.  Sad But that said, they of course make a fine engine. I just wanted to deflate their employee's puffery just a bit.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:38 am

Quoting Luke7e7 (Reply 42):
size wise, which engine is bigger, GEnX or Trent1000? , I would think GE, but i could be wrong.

The Trent has a 1" larger fan diameter (112" vs. 111") but as to their actual physical size including the combuster and exhaust stages, I cannot say.
 
luke7e7
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:25 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):

Wow! , that's really surprising for me , knowing that RR always had a smaller fan compared to the GE product (RB vs.CF-6 , and Trent vs. GE90)
 
PM
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:33 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 37):
Still waiting on PM's response to these news..lol

I'm too traumatised to comment...  crying 

But it'll take RR a L-O-N-G time to catch up with General Evil on the 787 now. If, indeed, they ever do...  pessimist 
 
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LTU932
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 47):
it'll take RR a L-O-N-G time to catch up with General Evil on the 787 now.

If long means never, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Signed,
BOE773
 
Molykote
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RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:51 pm

Quoting Luke7e7 (Reply 42):
size wise, which engine is bigger, GEnX or Trent1000? , I would think GE, but i could be wrong.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
The Trent has a 1" larger fan diameter (112" vs. 111") but as to their actual physical size including the combuster and exhaust stages, I cannot say.

On a related note, 2.95m is the largest fan diameter engine that can be shipped via 747F (at least according to Nicholas Cumpsty's book "Jet Propulsion). (2.95m = 116+ inches).

It seems odd that he makes this assertion without considering the overall engine size (but perhaps this is a vertical limitation on the 747F cargo area - given that large engines seem to have less accessory hardware at the 12 and 6 positions).
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