NYC777
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QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:13 pm

QR is still open to ordering the 787 if Airbus cannot close the deal with Qr says Al-Baker. He made his comments in Doha. Just headlines on Bloomber but Al-Baker says that Airbus has to finalize the design and close the deal by June if QR is to order the A350 if not then they can go back to Boeing. He also said that the ball is Airbus' (EADS) court.

If this is the state the A350 is in I just don't see how Airbus is going to get it out the door by 2013. It's looking more and more like 2015 IMO.

Boy, what a moron. He had those 60 early delivery slots for the 787. Well QR's loss is QFs gain.

[Edited 2007-02-27 15:20:48]
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EI321
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:19 pm

I dont get this. First there is no A350, and he reserves 787s. Then Airbus launch the old A350, he cancels the 787s and commits to the A350 but does not sign. Then roumers of 787s again, and nothing. Then Airbus launches the A350XWB, more roumers persist, and still no firm order. Is it airbus who cannot finalise a deal, or can he not finalise a deal with anybody? Ask for too much and you end up with nothing.
 
NYC777
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:23 pm

He made a seriously bad miscalculation is going with the A350 vs the 787 even though the 787 is so much more superior to the A350 now he has to wait for Airbus to go through the various iterations of the A350 and in the end he may end up with a good plane but not that good vs the 787. And he would probably have to pay more for the A350.

Like I said...he's a moron.

[Edited 2007-02-27 15:25:39]
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slz396
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:23 pm

Just some firm talk about the 787 from him now to show he has other options as well but to sign for the A350XWB.

In reality the chances of QR ordering the 787 are about 0.0%.
 
EI321
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
even though the 787 is so much more superior to the A350

A350 yes
A350XWB no
 
DAYflyer
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Boy, what a moron. He had those 60 early delivery slots for the 787. Well QR's loss is QFs gain.

Agreed. As they say in the Latin, "Moronus Maximus".

Quoting EI321 (Reply 1):
Is it airbus who cannot finalise a deal, or can he not finalise a deal with anybody? Ask for too much and you end up with nothing

EK could learn a big lesson here. They have been screwing around with the 787-10 vs A-350 (all designs) for what, 3 years now?
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clickhappy
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:30 pm

what a silly comment.

If Airbus can't 'close the deal' (whatever the hell that means) and QR needs that (A350/787) type of lift, what other choice does he have?

How does this even qualify as news?

Did Airbus say the A350ABCItsaseasyas123 wouldn't be 'frozen' until 2008? Even with Airbus style math that is well past June. Unless of course Al-Baker means June of some future year.
 
Lumberton
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 3):
ust some firm talk about the 787 from him now to show he has other options as well but to sign for the A350XWB.
In reality the chances of QR ordering the 787 are about 0.0%.

Quite right IMO, Slz396. This appears to rather opportunistic posturing on Mr. al Baker's part. No doubt he will drive a handsome deal on the A350XWB, perhaps even painful from EADS point of view, but in the end he'll sign with Airbus. Even if Boeing had the slots available earlier than 2013, they would unlikely give up a potential order from the likes of EK, BA, AA, UA, DL, etc., just to "turn" QR.

Here it is, a year and a half after the 2005 Paris Airshow and we still don't know what "up to 60" A350s for QR means!
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clickhappy
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:58 pm

Not sure how more orders equals a better plane??? Talk about some jacked-up math.

Until both are flying it is a pointless fanboy discussion.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:06 am

Lets put aside the sqaubble about which airplane is better for a moment and concentrate on the stupidity of the statement made by the airline, shall we?
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JAAlbert
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 7):
How does this even qualify as news?

Well the news part is if QR just issued a June, 2007 deadline for firming the 350xwb. When did Airbus say the design well be firm? Is the 2008 date mentioned in an earlier post correct?
 
NYC777
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:18 am

That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:27 am

When did Airbus say the design well be firm? Is the 2008 date mentioned in an earlier post correct?

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...icleID=211028&PrinterFriendly=true

From the above article:

However Airbus executive vice-president programmes Tom Williams says the design freeze milestone, dubbed "main gate 7" (M7), is not due until late 2008, around six months later than when the XWB was first announced. "We have just passed 'M3', which enabled us to lock down the definition of the aircraft. M7 is scheduled for late 2008."
 
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Stitch
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:41 am

Perhaps QIA has been watching Putin and will now tie the QR order to their desire for 20% of EADS just as Putin tied the SU order to getting more then 6% of EADS?  devil 
 
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Qatara340
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:42 am

People are forgeting that QR ordered 20 777s to be delievered from this year until 2010. QR also has 20 more options. My GUESS:

a. QR will take those 20 777 options
b. QR will order those A350's to be delievered from 2014
c. The 777 will help QR's growth in the interim until the A350 begin to arrive. (from 2010-2014)
d. The A350 will replace the A330s
e. Boeing is happy, Airbus is happy, QR is happy
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BlatantEcho
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:18 am

You can just 'switch to a spun barrel'

Boeing has been working the knowledge tree on this for YEARS. They bought laminate tape drives from North Sails, they bought up years worth of Carbon Fiber production. It's been a huge process, just to get to the point where they said...ok, we can no design an airplane around this technology.

The only thing I assume is that airbus is working very hard to figure out what they can do to get as CLOSE as possible, given the current timeframe. If they can spin a full barrel airplane, less than a year after wanting aluminum, then 6 months after wanting panels, then they are smarter and more capable than we all think.
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Stitch
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:31 am

Or airlines have been so sold by Boeing on spun-barrel CFRP fuselages that Airbus just can't get sufficient traction to land a large spate of orders to launch the program into formal development and production.

When even heavy hitters like QR and SU (over 80 frames) continue to say "the 787 remains an option" even though everyone and their grandmother swears the A350XWB is a done deal and EK keeps dancing around with an order bigger then both combined, one starts to wonder...
 
airfrnt
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 1):
I dont get this. First there is no A350, and he reserves 787s. Then Airbus launch the old A350, he cancels the 787s and commits to the A350 but does not sign. Then roumers of 787s again, and nothing. Then Airbus launches the A350XWB, more roumers persist, and still no firm order. Is it airbus who cannot finalise a deal, or can he not finalise a deal with anybody? Ask for too much and you end up with nothing.

After 5 years of watching EK and QR, my only thought is that this should not surprise anyone. EK and QR have never been what one would call sane businesses. (BTW, please go grab the newest Firefox with the build in spell check... it will help a lot).
 
EI321
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 34):
You can just 'switch to a spun barrel'

Is the A400 a CFRP spun aircraft?
 
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Stitch
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 37):
Is the A400 a CFRP spun aircraft?

No. The wings are made of CFRP, however the fuselage is "traditional" Al in design and construction.

You can see pictures of the first production fuselage here - http://www.a400m-countdown.com/index.php?v=4&spage=2
 
hb88
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 48):
Quoting HB88 (Reply 45):
They might. That depends largely on how the 787 pans out in service.

Hard to phathom a 787 in service wouldn't be better than a nothing in service for a capacity constrained airline (which was more my point vs. the efficiency of either aircraft).

Ah ok. I was comparing the 787 against any and all other offerings.
 
osiris30
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 50):

Ah ok. I was comparing the 787 against any and all other offerings.

Nope, was merely saying that if the 350 ends up being late then the decision to forego early 787 slots will look like a very poor choice. Again this is on the assumption that QR is infact capacity constrained going forward, which frankly, given the growth both they and EK are predicting is hard to believe.
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Sangas
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 45):
the 350 - I think it will be one sweet aircraft

Weren't you saying essentially the same thing a couple of design iterations ago?
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hb88
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 52):
Quoting HB88 (Reply 45):
"Anyway, I for sure don't think Airbus will flub the 350 - I think it will be one sweet aircraft."

Got those rose-colored Airbus Beer Goggles on yourself?

Um, do you really think there's no difference between saying:

(Quoting NYC777 (Reply 6)
"The 787 is a superior plane to either iteration of the A350 (whether it be the XWB or not)."

and saying (me) "I think the 350 will be a sweet aircraft."?

Maybe I'm a little slow, but they seem quite different to me.

Anyway, I do know a fair bit about the progress of the 350 and I would happily stand by my speculative opinion. But of course your mileage may vary.
 
CXfirst
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
If this is the state the A350 is in I just don't see how Airbus is going to get it out the door by 2013. It's looking more and more like 2015 IMO.

Why do you say that? If the A350 takes about the same time to be ceritfied as the 787, and the 787 has barely started to be produced (late 2006 (?)) and will be certified and in production in 2008, then they do not have to start to build the A350 until 2011, loads of time.

-CXfirst
 
NYC777
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 60):
Why do you say that? If the A350 takes about the same time to be ceritfied as the 787, and the 787 has barely started to be produced (late 2006 (?)) and will be certified and in production in 2008, then they do not have to start to build the A350 until 2011, loads of time.


Airbus hasn't even begun designing the A350 and they haven't started their re-organization as well as choosing suppliers, etc. That along with Airbus' history give many people pause when they say that they're going to have an EIS of 2013.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:34 am

I eliminated 43 childish, elementary school posts from this thread.

I'll leave the thread open - for now.

Next off topic remark, personal attack, crack about Canada's education system, will earn a 30 walk for whomever.

Consider this fair, and final warning.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:25 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
good plane but not that good vs the 787

We will see, now its to early to talk about performance.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 3):

In reality the chances of QR ordering the 787 are about 0.0%

I dont think the chances are that low, but i agree Airbus can only loose this one if they do really big mistakes and take to long with final design.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 14):
a. QR will take those 20 777 options
b. QR will order those A350's to be delievered from 2014
c. The 777 will help QR's growth in the interim until the A350 begin to arrive. (from 2010-2014)
d. The A350 will replace the A330s
e. Boeing is happy, Airbus is happy, QR is happy

Indeed, also now that QR has stakes from EADS, they sure will try protect their investment as far as possible.

[Edited 2007-02-28 02:26:19]
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DfwRevolution
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 24):
Why do you say that? If the A350 takes about the same time to be ceritfied as the 787, and the 787 has barely started to be produced (late 2006 (?)) and will be certified and in production in 2008, then they do not have to start to build the A350 until 2011, loads of time.

And when was the last time Airbus achieved their in-service delivery target? Not only does Airbus tend to move slower at developing new aircraft, they also have a trend of missing their EIS targets. IIRC, the last time Airbus delivered a new aircraft type on-time was the A330-200 in 1996. The A318, A345/A346, and A380 have all faced high-profile delays.

It would be a very big stretch for Airbus to introduce the A350 in 2013. Heck even 2014 is optimistic.
 
Lokey123
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:16 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):
It would be a very big stretch for Airbus to introduce the A350 in 2013. Heck even 2014 is optimistic

Well that won't seem to matter, was talking to some people today and it seems as though Boeing is sold out on the 787 until 2015, don't ask me to who cause i don't know. QR will be happy to take their 350s in 2014 cause right now there is no alternative.

Additionally, no one here knows that the 787 will be superior to the 350, that is jumping the gun way too prematurely. I still believe that no matter what Airbus will finally come up with a capable offering for this market segment.
 
PEET7G
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:20 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 8):
Not sure how more orders equals a better plane??? Talk about some jacked-up math.

Until both are flying it is a pointless fanboy discussion.



Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 9):
Lets put aside the sqaubble about which airplane is better for a moment and concentrate on the stupidity of the statement made by the airline, shall we?

 checkmark  How on earth can anyone argue on superiority of two aircrafts of which none are flying and in case of one of them, not even the manufacturer knows what it wants! All the data about the 350XWB is yet only a dream Airbus wants to achieve, but yet even they don't know how to get there (a bit sarcastic there, but not far from reality), as with the 787, let's wait how these breathtaking new technologies work out and prove themselves.

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 15):
If they can spin a full barrel airplane, less than a year after wanting aluminum, then 6 months after wanting panels, then they are smarter and more capable than we all think.

Or they just pull their well known card of giving promises to customers that later in time can be adjusted as they will...  duck 
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CXfirst
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):
It would be a very big stretch for Airbus to introduce the A350 in 2013. Heck even 2014 is optimistic.

However, it can still be done, but only if there are no more big issues (and not a lot of minor ones either) with their design.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):
And when was the last time Airbus achieved their in-service delivery target? Not only does Airbus tend to move slower at developing new aircraft, they also have a trend of missing their EIS targets. IIRC, the last time Airbus delivered a new aircraft type on-time was the A330-200 in 1996. The A318, A345/A346, and A380 have all faced high-profile delays.

I want to say "anyone can be unlucky," but that wouldn't fit. I know there past looks bad, but now that the A380 has been certified, I believe that they can get more of their staff to focus on the A350, and when the A380 is production certified, then they can get even more people onto the A350.

Airbus knows that their models have been delayed in the past, and they know getting this one on time can seriously increase their sales, and IMHO they will have much less delays than most people on A.net think.


As for QR taking 787, I don't think they will take them, as many have said, why wait until 2015 at least, when you can get a plane, that is as much state of the art, at 2013, if Airbus does not make that date, they will probably have it around the 787 possible time. Additionally, if airbus are late with it, QR can get a hefty compensation for an order up to 60.

-CXfirst
 
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SEPilot
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:37 pm

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 15):
The only thing I assume is that airbus is working very hard to figure out what they can do to get as CLOSE as possible, given the current timeframe. If they can spin a full barrel airplane, less than a year after wanting aluminum, then 6 months after wanting panels, then they are smarter and more capable than we all think.

It is always hardest to do something for the first time. Once someone has done it establishes that it can be done, which makes the next attempt easier even if it is not known how it is done. In this case we do know a good deal about how Boeing is doing it, and even though some of it is secret and some is undoubtedly patented I'm quite sure Airbus has talented people who will figure out how to do it, and if they can't use patented processes they will figure out how. The biggest problems they have to overcome will be organizational and political, not technical.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Stitch
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RE: QR Still Open To Ordering The 787

Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting Lokey123 (Reply 29):
Well that won't seem to matter, was talking to some people today and it seems as though Boeing is sold out on the 787 until 2015, don't ask me to who cause i don't know. QR will be happy to take their 350s in 2014 cause right now there is no alternative.

Yet if the 787 ends up being the better choice for them, waiting a year - or even two - for it won't be that great a burden for them since they have already had to wait so long. And in the interim, the A330 and 777 are available to keep them going.