deltaffindfw
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CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:52 am

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...icle?AID=/20070227/BIZ01/302270035

New: We're No. 1!

BY ALEXANDER COOLIDGE | ACOOLIDGE@ENQUIRER.COM

We’re No. 1, again. And again, and again, and again.

The Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport has wracked up an entire year atop the list of the nation’s most expensive major airports to fly.

The average roundtrip ticket here costs $556 - $80 more than No. 2 ranked San Francisco International with an average far of $476, according to a new report issued by the Department of Transportation’s Office of Aviation Analysis. The latest data is from the third quarter of 2006.

Rounding out the top five: No. 3, Washington Dulles International with an average roundtrip fare of $434; at No. 4, Dallas/Fort Worth International with tickets averaging $428; and Newark (N.J.) International Airport with tickets averaging $422.
 
B6WNQX
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:03 am

That's quite impressive considering a lot of the flights would probably be within 3 hours I'm guessing as most are probably regional to Florida and neighboring states. Where is WN when you need them to offer the $44 fares for a 1 1/2 hour flight and $79 for a 2 1/2 hour flight. Shoot the highest fare WN offers for a connecting transcon (PDX-BWI) is $339. That is over $200 less than CVG's avg fare. I have sympathy to those who have to pay those high fees.
 
ord
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:11 am

The article says CVG is Delta's second largest hub. I guess when you include Delta Connection flights it is, but in terms of mainline service it has fallen below both Salt Lake City and JFK.
 
xjramper
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 1):
That's quite impressive considering a lot of the flights would probably be within 3 hours I'm guessing as most are probably regional to Florida and neighboring states. Where is WN when you need them to offer the $44 fares for a 1 1/2 hour flight and $79 for a 2 1/2 hour flight. Shoot the highest fare WN offers for a connecting transcon (PDX-BWI) is $339. That is over $200 less than CVG's avg fare. I have sympathy to those who have to pay those high fees.

True, but connecting where?

I would rather fly non-stop and pay 500 then have to stop 3 or 4 places for 350.

Here is a sample fare closest to the city in question departing from CMH to JAX on WN.

Total fare in a month will be $432 on southwest round trip.

I did a flight on DL from CMH-JAX the same days, I found total fare of $189.90 round trip.

So, in keeping with the theme of this thread I went for a flight direct CVG-JAX, and the round trip total is $279.80 round trip.

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
ejmmsu
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 3):
True, but connecting where?

I would rather fly non-stop and pay 500 then have to stop 3 or 4 places for 350.

Here is a sample fare closest to the city in question departing from CMH to JAX on WN.

Total fare in a month will be $432 on southwest round trip.

I did a flight on DL from CMH-JAX the same days, I found total fare of $189.90 round trip.

So, in keeping with the theme of this thread I went for a flight direct CVG-JAX, and the round trip total is $279.80 round trip.

XJR

For every example like that, there are 20 with the opposite situation.

Leaving April 14th and Coming back April 15...

STL-OKC-STL is $117 total R/T on WN

CVG-OKC-CVG is $458 total R/T on DL
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
Indy
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:52 am

DL... the people at IND thank you for your insane pricing tactics  Smile

Quoting DeltaFFinDFW (Thread starter):
New: We're No. 1!

BTW I don't think you are supposed to celebrate that ranking  Smile Thats like celebrating being #1 in the NFL in giveaways.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
HPRamper
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:53 am

Where's Southwest when you need them? I'm sure WN could turn a fortune if they moved into CVG.
 
xjramper
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 4):

For every example like that, there are 20 with the opposite situation.

Leaving April 14th and Coming back April 15...

STL-OKC-STL is $117 total R/T on WN

CVG-OKC-CVG is $458 total R/T on DL

What I am trying to do is show examples from similar markets (within driving distance). STL and BWI-PDX have nothing to do with CVG. You have a completely different market between stl and cvg and between bwi ad pdx.

I however, agree with you Eric. There are plenty of counter examples. It was the first one that I pulled out of my head because Florida was mentioned and I knew both DL and WN flew there.

The purpose was to show that WN isn't always the cheapest and that it had nothing to do with how expensive it is to fly out of CVG. Don't recall WN being in the original thread.  Smile

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
DAYflyer
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting DeltaFFinDFW (Thread starter):
We’re No. 1, again. And again, and again, and again.

The Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport has wracked up an entire year atop the list of the nation’s most expensive major airports to fly.

Which explains why people are driving to DAY to catch flights which are much cheaper....on the same airline which is responsible for the high fares at CVG.

CVG is also number 1 in the amount of CRJ and RJ flights....is there a correllation? You bet.

Ever since DL dropped the Simplifares plan, CVG area residents take in the shorts. You can bet if there were a mainline LCC like LUV or B6 or FL there wouldn't be this issue.
One Nation Under God
 
Indy
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:10 am

If I want to fly DL from IND to LAS via CVG I can fly for as cheap as $600 including tax. Flight 711 from CVG to LAS and Flight 708 from LAS to CVG. If I lived in Cincinnati and I took 711 and 708 on the very same dates I'd be paying almost $1100. I'd be a more expensive passenger since I had to take two flights to make the same trip but I'd be paying 55% of what the person in Cincinnati would have paid for the exact same CVG-LAS flights.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
johnboy
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:03 am

It's become quite the sport to count the number of Ohio license plates on those rare occasions when I fly back to SDF.....hey Louisville thanks you too, DL!
 
mah584jr
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:33 am

The prices at CVG are inflated because of airport fees and because Delta has no competitor there.
 
Logos
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 11):
The prices at CVG are inflated because of airport fees and because Delta has no competitor there

Bingo. There was a thread a week or so ago that dealt with what city was the most captive to a single airline. As I thought about it, I couldn't think of one more captive to an airline and it's regional partners than Cincinnati is to Delta. There is scarcely even any other mainline service there from other airlines - just regional affiliates. No wonder the fares are high. You would think that Southwest or another LCC would take notice of this and offer some alternatives.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
flydl2atl
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:43 am

If it wasn't for DL the fares would be lower....but there would be a a lot less destinations to choose from. CVG is lucky to have Delta.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 13):
If it wasn't for DL the fares would be lower....but there would be a a lot less destinations to choose from. CVG is lucky to have Delta.

 checkmark  But you do need WN and FL, not to mention F9 and B6 to get your fares under control. SLC is also in the top dozen or so since WN only carries about 15% of the O&D passengers.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
ejmmsu
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 14):
checkmark But you do need WN and FL, not to mention F9 and B6 to get your fares under control. SLC is also in the top dozen or so since WN only carries about 15% of the O&D passengers.

If I had the choice to live in a city with a CVG type airport, or an IND/RDU/BNA type airport, choosing the IND/RDU/BNA type airport is a no-brainer. You still get non-stops to all the big destinations, and fares are much lower.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
rwsea
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 15):
If I had the choice to live in a city with a CVG type airport, or an IND/RDU/BNA type airport, choosing the IND/RDU/BNA type airport is a no-brainer. You still get non-stops to all the big destinations, and fares are much lower

But you'd also have little to no international service, and very limited service to the West Coast. The business pax in and around CVG, as well as travelling to CVG, are willing to pay for the convenience of a non-stop. The family headed to their annual Orlando vacation wanting to pay $100 roundtrip will be willing to drive to another city to get cheaper airfare. But that isn't the market DL is trying to target anyways.

The reality is that DL is doing what it takes to make CVG profitable. The alternative is no hub. I think CVG is better served today then it would be if it were a simple spoke to ATL, JFK, and SLC. And unfortunately, the market isn't so big that the LCCs would just be dying to get in. Look at PIT for instance - WN and B6 have added flights, but the airport is still poorly served compared to the days when US was at their largest.
 
jbmitt
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:04 am

I live in Cincinnati and fly DL out of CVG whenever it is not more than 200 dollars more expensive than DAY or CMH, otherwise I will connect.

Non-stops to CDG,LGW, FRA, FCO, AMS, ANC, HNL among normal markets are worth a premium to me. Sure I will take a flight from DAY or CMH because of the extra MQMs, miles, and frequent denied boarding ticket vouchers. I figure that the extra driving, and time connecting are not worth more than 200 dollars a trip to me.
 
Evan767
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 1):
Where is WN when you need them to offer the $44 fares for a 1 1/2 hour flight and $79 for a 2 1/2 hour flight

WN could not make money on a flight like that. CVG is extremely costly for airlines to operate in/out of, which is why you won't see a low cost carrier operate into there. Maybe if WN flew 777s on these routes, and filled em up it might be a different story.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 6):
Where's Southwest when you need them? I'm sure WN could turn a fortune if they moved into CVG.

Doubt it. See above.

The fares to fly out of CVG are extremely high because operating costs for airlines are extremely high. Look at how DL is expanding out of ATL, which has a noticibly lower operating cost than CVG.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 16):
The reality is that DL is doing what it takes to make CVG profitable. The alternative is no hub. I think CVG is better served today then it would be if it were a simple spoke to ATL, JFK, and SLC. And unfortunately, the market isn't so big that the LCCs would just be dying to get in. Look at PIT for instance - WN and B6 have added flights,

I should also point out that the "rust-belt" hubs are really not what they once were. Both CVG and PIT aren't anywhere near what they were 2-3 decades ago when they had percentage wise many more O&D passengers. Mountain Time Zone hubs like DEN, PHX and SLC have actually seen their numbers increase substantially.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
ejmmsu
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 16):
But you'd also have little to no international service, and very limited service to the West Coast.

I would be willing to connect to an international flight via a hub so I wouldn't have to pay $450 for a r/t ticket to OKC when my friends in STL can pay $117.

IND has n/s flights to SFO, LAX, LAS, on NW

BNA has n/s flights to SEA and LAX

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 16):
The business pax in and around CVG, as well as travelling to CVG, are willing to pay for the convenience of a non-stop. The family headed to their annual Orlando vacation wanting to pay $100 roundtrip will be willing to drive to another city to get cheaper airfare. But that isn't the market DL is trying to target anyways.

But that is no good for those of us in the middle, like me, who fly about 25000 miles per year, but don't have a business buying our tickets for us.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
skibum9
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 3):
I would rather fly non-stop and pay 500 then have to stop 3 or 4 places for 350.



Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
Ever since DL dropped the Simplifares plan, CVG area residents take in the shorts. You can bet if there were a mainline LCC like LUV or B6 or FL there wouldn't be this issue.

XJRamper I think you underestimate how ticked off the consumer is with the prices in Cincinnati and how many do not share your opinion. DAYflyer is right that the residents are taking it in the shorts. I live in Cincinnati and work for one of the top 5 corporations in town. We have been asked to use alternative airports because of the airfare. Last week I had to go to SFO and roundtrip out of CVG was $800+, where as it was $300 out of DAY. Yes the connection in CVG or ATL is inconvenient, but that kind of savings cannot be ignored, especially when you have 100s of employees flying every day. In fact, the traffic in DAY has picked up so much, when I got to DAY, both the long-term and medium-term parking lots were full. DAY has caught onto all the Cincinnatians coming to their airport and recently raised short-term parking to $25 a day. So why DL gouges the Cincinnatians on airfare, DAY is now gouging on the parking, but it still works out less then flying out of CVG in many cases.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 16):
The business pax in and around CVG, as well as travelling to CVG, are willing to pay for the convenience of a non-stop.

That is no longer entirely true. As I referenced above, I work for one of the top 5 employers in Cincinnati, and we have been told to use DAY, or IND or SDF, when it is cheaper. Also, look at P&G, after its contract with DL was voided in bankruptcy, it has now signed on with AA. AA has now added flights to DFW and LGA. So your theory the the business pax are willing to pay is cracking! Additionally, DL has cut back so many flights that at times it is inconvenient to fly DL. For example, the night time bank has been cut to a point where in many cases you cannot flyout in the morning and come back that evening. That with the prices does not sit well with businesses, and thus they are looking for alternatives.
Tailwinds!!!
 
2H4
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:47 am




Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 21):
XJRamper I think you underestimate how ticked off the consumer is with the prices in Cincinnati and how many do not share your opinion.

Living in the CVG area, and witnessing things first hand, I agree with Skibum. An ever-increasing number of people and companies are becoming extremely ticked off with CVG/DL prices, and are going out of their way to utilize alternative airports. In addition, they (and the local media) are being very vocal about it.

Hopefully, the trend will continue, demand at CVG will decrease, and prices will follow suit....


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
skibum9
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 22):
Living in the CVG area,


2H4. I hope that isn't one of Hal's (Sporty's) 172s that you have your feet up on the panel, as pictured in your profile! You know how anal he can be about things!
Tailwinds!!!
 
KELPkid
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 23):
2H4. I hope that isn't one of Hal's (Sporty's) 172s that you have your feet up on the panel, as pictured in your profile! You know how anal he can be about things!

When was the last time you saw Hal Shevers poking around the airliners.net forums?  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
cairo
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 3):
have to stop 3 or 4 places for 350

Buy into legacy propaganda much?

Total stops on DL, CMH-JAX = 1
Total stops on WN, CMH-JAX = 1

Total stops on most WN transcons (east coast to west coast) 0 or 1
Total stops on most DL transcons (east coast to west coast) 0 or 1

To my knowledge Southwest doesn't market anything more than 2 stop service, and that is itself unusual and only used between small market city pairs, which DL or any legacy would also only match with 2 stop service.

Almost all DL flights start or end in one of their hubs, you aren't going anywhere on Delta unless its through ATL, CVG or SLC, most of the time.The Entire Philosophy of Delta = STOP and make a connection. They don't believe in nonstop point to point service. WN focuses on point to point service and you have a great chance of getting a nonstop on WN to popular destinations, whereas with Delta this is impossible, unless you're going to Atlanta, Salt Lake or Cincy.

The 'make 3 or 4 stops' criticsm of Southwest, if it was ever true, stopped being true 15 or so years ago. It is impossible to spend more than $339 one way on any WN routing, including coast to coast flights leaving tomorrow, even though they could charge much more than that on many routes.....Delta's highest one way unrestricted fare in coach in the US is, I'm guessing, north of $2000. Two different philosophies with results proving the success of each.

Cairo
 
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deltadawg
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:42 am

This CVG news is great news! For Dayton!
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
KevinSmith
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:53 am

LOL you got me with the thread title. I was thinking what the $#^#$% is CVG #1 for?
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
skibum9
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 24):
When was the last time you saw Hal Shevers poking around the airliners.net forums? Wink

Good point, with the way he likes to control everything he is too busy driving around the ramp and taxiways on his four wheeler at I69 making sure that no one is breaking one of his unwritten rules, or he is reprimanding one of his workers, or is busy coming up with new signs for the toilets that say "If you can read this sign when going to the bathroom, you are using the wrong toilet." (Meaning you should only pee in the urinals) So he probably has one of his workers surfing around a.net! Just kidding, Hal isn't that bad.
Tailwinds!!!
 
eva777sea
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 20):
IND has n/s flights to SFO, LAX, LAS, on NW

NW doesn't operate SFO-IND nonstop, or at least not in the winter. They might get service in the summer like SEA does.
 
xjramper
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 25):

Total stops on DL, CMH-JAX = 1
Total stops on WN, CMH-JAX = 1

I wasnt talking about number of stops. I was giving a price comparison from similar markets.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 25):
To my knowledge Southwest doesn't market anything more than 2 stop service, and that is itself unusual and only used between small market city pairs, which DL or any legacy would also only match with 2 stop service.

I have seen multiple times on WN's website where there has been 3 stops.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 25):
The 'make 3 or 4 stops' criticsm of Southwest, if it was ever true, stopped being true 15 or so years ago. It is impossible to spend more than $339

One way is the key there and that is coach and it is not including taxes. Check out flight WN631.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 25):
Delta's highest one way unrestricted fare in coach in the US is, I'm guessing, north of $2000

Have any info to back that up?


But again, I don't care about WN. It has nothing to do with the original thread.

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
Indy
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:33 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 29):
NW doesn't operate SFO-IND nonstop, or at least not in the winter. They might get service in the summer like SEA does.

SFO returns May 2nd. It looks to be permanent as NW has it available online through at least 12/31/07.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:49 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
You can bet if there were a mainline LCC like LUV or B6 or FL there wouldn't be this issue.

...nor "this" hub

Quoting Logos (Reply 12):
You would think that Southwest or another LCC would take notice of this and offer some alternatives

Here's the thing with that:
competitor and/or LoCo tries to enter CVG; [insert mainline carrier name here] throws 767s on domestic routes and trashes the yield; people flock to [insert mainline carrier name here]'s low prices; competitor gives up and leaves; [insert mainline carrier name here] raises prices higher than they were before.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 19):
Both CVG and PIT aren't anywhere near what they were 2-3 decades ago when they had percentage wise many more O&D passengers

.....huh????

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 22):
Hopefully, the trend will continue, demand at CVG will decrease, and prices will follow suit....

...as will flights, destinations, and seat count.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
LAXspotter
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:54 am

an i was just about to fly in to CVG from LA, prices are insane. I guess i'll have to fly into dayton, but i'll skip Delta.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Logos
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:44 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 32):
Quoting Logos (Reply 12):
You would think that Southwest or another LCC would take notice of this and offer some alternatives

Here's the thing with that:
competitor and/or LoCo tries to enter CVG; [insert mainline carrier name here] throws 767s on domestic routes and trashes the yield; people flock to [insert mainline carrier name here]'s low prices; competitor gives up and leaves; [insert mainline carrier name here] raises prices higher than they were before.

I get that, but it's not like WN hasn't taken on hubs (like DTW & PHL) before and been profitable at the end of the above mentioned process. I would also question the ability that Delta presently has for a fight like you mention - I wonder if they could withstand the damage to their own yields. On balance, I still think there's an opportunity here for someone with a low cost structure. What is news to me from this thread is that CVG has relatively high costs and that could play a role in someone's reluctance to come in and see what they can generate.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
KELPkid
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:58 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 28):
or is busy coming up with new signs for the toilets that say "If you can read this sign when going to the bathroom, you are using the wrong toilet."

 rotfl  That begs for me to tell the story, of my boss when I worked at an FBO...(his name, ironically enough, was Hal as well...). After many people started making the men's room an unsanitary mess (and I got to clean up afer them as part of my job duties  Sad ), a handmade sign went up in the hallway going into the men's room, and above all the urinals:

"Rules for general use: 1) Pilots with short stacks shall taxi close before offloading excess fluid."
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
steeler83
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
Thats like celebrating being #1 in the NFL in giveaways.

What the Pittsburgh Steelers ranked in 2006 in that regard... Yeah, definitely NOT something to be proud of...

When I saw this thread, I thought it meant something good for CVG like choice of food or connectivity between flights er something of the type. Expensive airport to fly out of? What I hear and/or think of when I see this is airlines like WN and B6 avoiding this city like the plague, and not to mention those people flying out of the Cincinnati Northern Kentucky area. They'd prefer DAY or Louisville, depending on where they live...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
skibum9
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RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 32):
...nor "this" hub

That is the point. That arrogant attitude is starting not to fly anymore. Businesses, the media, and the citizens are starting not to care that it is a hub. DL built the hub as a connection hub, not solely on the O&D, thus it was to the primary benefit of DL, and a secondary benefit to Cincinnati. Some will say that it was not profitable when the mix was heavily connection. The truth is that CVG was the most profitable hub in DL's system before the advent of the RJ. At that time, they had 200+ mainline flights and had about 80% connection traffic. Once DL shifted to a strategy of over reliance on the RJ, and thus the heavy build up of OH, the economics of CVG crashed. DL's strategy has changed to where they are focused more on O&D at CVG than at their other hubs. Now they have 60 mainline flights and a plethora of RJ flights. DL keep pulling flights and keeping prices high, thus giving the Cincinnatians less and less options. There is a threshold that the market will bear, and we are starting to see cracks in that threshold as more and more people, and businesses, flock to the alternative airports.

Looking at it another way, the hub argument is also bogus when comparing the hubs. The following is the lowest price for originating a non-stop flight from a DL hub to LAX on Tuesday March 6, returning Tuesday March 13:

ATL - $412.00
JFK - $383.81
CVG - $819.00

If that isn't bad enough, lets look at the pricing of the competition's hubs to LAX for the same dates;
CLE - $527
CLT - $524
PHL - $244
EWR - $224
DTW - $405
ORD - $327
MEM - $312

Now many will say that some of these hubs have competition and are bigger cities, all true. However, looking at a comparable size city with no competition, like MEM, it is outrageous that DL charges over a 150% premium for a comparable flight out of CVG. The hub argument doesn't make sense and the pricing at CVG is criminal, thus the reason for the public resentment!

Another way to look at it is look at CVG when simplifares was implemented. DL experienced a 41% increase in traffic across 25 markets, and a 13% increase in revenue. (source: http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/dom...mpetition/SF-2Q05_Simplifares.pdf) Since they have pulled the simplifare pricing, it is safe to assume that they have lost that 41% increase, and that is why you see parking lots SDF, IND, LEX, DAY and CMH full of cars from Cincinnati. 41% is a pretty huge indicator that the people of Cincinnati are fed up and just don't care that it is a hub.

Earlier in this thread, people mentioned that when a LCC or other competition entered CVG, CVG would dump seats on the route to destroy yields. Once the competitor left, DL would go back to its regular practice of high prices. That was true when DL was running 80% connection traffic through CVG. Now that it is dependent on O&D at CVG, and 41% of that potential O&D is flying out of alternative airports, I don't think they have the same luxury to use such predatory pricing policies today. Due to this change in these dynamics and the increase in public resentment, I think that CVG is prime for competition. You are seeing it with AA adding flights and picking up the P&G contract. It is only time until others come, and this time they will be well embraced by the public and DL will have less tools in its arsenal.

And one final note, at what point do you stop considering CVG a hub. They are down to 60 mainline flights, from 200+ a few years ago. Some on this board will say that it is a hub because it has international flights. There are plenty of US airports that are not hubs that have international flights, like RDU, MCO and BOS. I would bet that most of the passengers in those international flights are not O&D. So at what point do you call CVG a focus city, for real?

The net, net....the hub attitude is not flying anymore.
Tailwinds!!!
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:45 pm

If CVG had a LFC competitor, DL coudn't make CVG work financially. It is too small of a market to sustain a large hub (which is the DOT category CVG is in) and have low fare service.

There is no doubt that DL wants a lease w/ CVG that gives them pretty easily ability to walk away from CVG as a hub if a competitor enters the market.

Don't forget, though, that CVG had huts for terminals before DL arrived and the city had never seen scheduled intercontinental service.

CVG is alot smaller market than other cities that have far less service.

CVG is the smallest post-deregulation hub that remains; remember that AA killed RDU, BNA, and SJC and then STL; US killed PIT.... DL is trying to salvage what of CVG they can... and they still provide Cinti/N. Kentucky with far more service than other cities its size have.

How many cities the size of CVG have 3 year around intercontinental destinations and 2 more during the summer?

Answer: nada.

I'm sure DL would love to operate a larger hub at CVG but the market simply isn't big enough to support it; and until the market can support more service, any low fare carrier that enters the market will kill the level of service DL does provide CVG - even if it comes at a high price.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 38):

So DL is trying to keep the LCCs out of CVG because of their smaller hub size there. Isn't CO at CLE smaller than DL at CVG? CLE has about 225 CO flights, and they're planning on expanding. (I think CLE only has LGW, and is about to get CDG.) In that regard, CLE is smaller than CVG considering the intercontinental choices...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:09 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 38):
CVG is alot smaller market than other cities that have far less service.

CVG is comparable in size, as determined by MSA population, to CLE, and is larger than CLT, MEM and SLC. All those large hubs have LCCs and do not gouge the customers like DL at CVG. It's not a fair analysis (IMHO) to look solely at O&D out of theses airports as a large portion of what would be CVG's O&D use alternative airports or do not fly due to the prices. Simplifares proved that DL could increase O&D by 41% and get 13% more revenue out of CVG.

[Edited 2007-02-28 05:13:57]

[Edited 2007-02-28 05:16:25]
Tailwinds!!!
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 37):
The truth is that CVG was the most profitable hub in DL's system before the advent of the RJ.

...corroborate this statement please.

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 37):
There are plenty of US airports that are not hubs that have international flights, like RDU, MCO and BOS.

Yes, great examples:
the former is heavily subsidized and not likely to last much longer, the middle is a niche leisure-flow that the business-centric CVG market can never dream of matching, and the latter relies heavily on its massive -------wait on it------- O&D.

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 37):
So at what point do you call CVG a focus city, for real?

Call it whatever turns your crank; the fact remains at this point, the operation continues to be a "hub" by any stretch of the technical definition.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 38):
CVG is the smallest post-deregulation hub that remains

...wonder what MEM and CLE would think about that?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
sq452
Posts: 995
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:49 am

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
Which explains why people are driving to DAY to catch flights which are much cheaper....on the same airline which is responsible for the high fares at CVG.

I do it all the time. I was doing it quite a bit when i went to school in Boston. If you live in the north of cincinnati, Dayton isn't really much further driving distance from CVG anyway. In some cases, it was CHEAPER to fly SA)">DL BOS to DAY via CVG, then to terminate in Cincinnati on THE EXACT SAME FLIGHTS FROM BOS>CVG.  banghead 

Get this:

I just booked BOS>DAY>BOS for May, and the new comair flight non-stop from Boston to Dayton was $193 rt.

If I did non-stop delta mainline BOS>CVG>BOS, the fare was over $1000 for the same days of travel.

If I did BOS>DAY>BOS (with a stopover in CincinnatI) the fare was $300 something, WITH THE EXACT SAME FLIGHTS on the BOS>CVG>BOS leg of the journey that would have cost me over $1000 if i terminated my trip at CVG.


Go frickin figure. DAY is a great, convenient airport, and with that new non-stop to Boston, its great!
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 18):
The fares to fly out of CVG are extremely high because operating costs for airlines are extremely high.

Whats so high about them? Why is this?

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 21):
DAYflyer is right that the residents are taking it in the shorts. I live in Cincinnati and work for one of the top 5 corporations in town. We have been asked to use alternative airports because of the airfare. Last week I had to go to SFO and roundtrip out of CVG was $800+, where as it was $300 out of DAY. Yes the connection in CVG or ATL is inconvenient, but that kind of savings cannot be ignored, especially when you have 100s of employees flying every day.

True. In regards to the parking, use the long term lot for $4 a day and catch the shuttle. It takes you directly to your car.

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 42):
Get this:

I just booked BOS>DAY>BOS for May, and the new comair flight non-stop from Boston to Dayton was $193 rt.

If I did non-stop delta mainline BOS>CVG>BOS, the fare was over $1000 for the same days of travel.

If I did BOS>DAY>BOS (with a stopover in CincinnatI) the fare was $300 something, WITH THE EXACT SAME FLIGHTS on the BOS>CVG>BOS leg of the journey that would have cost me over $1000 if i terminated my trip at CVG.


Go frickin figure. DAY is a great, convenient airport, and with that new non-stop to Boston, its great!

My point, exactly. And now DAY is considering opening the closed 4 gates at the old D concourse, which closed in the mid 90's when US pulled down the hub Piedmont had here. More gates, more airlines, lower fares continue.
One Nation Under God
 
gregarious119
Posts: 399
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:59 am

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 43):
My point, exactly. And now DAY is considering opening the closed 4 gates at the old D concourse, which closed in the mid 90's when US pulled down the hub Piedmont had here. More gates, more airlines, lower fares continue.

Where are you getting this info from, DAYflyer? I want to see it!

Not because I doubt you...but I want to know more!  Smile Do you have any idea what airlines would be utilizing the gates? Are they in talks with any other carriers to start service?
 
travelin man
Posts: 3203
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 30):
But again, I don't care about WN. It has nothing to do with the original thread.

Most expensive:
1. CVG -- No WN service
2. SFO -- No WN service
3. IAD -- WN service recently begun
4. DFW -- No WN service
5. EWR -- No WN service

Is it just coincidence that the top 5 most expensive airports have no (or very recently introduced) WN service?
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 44):
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 43):
My point, exactly. And now DAY is considering opening the closed 4 gates at the old D concourse, which closed in the mid 90's when US pulled down the hub Piedmont had here. More gates, more airlines, lower fares continue.

Where are you getting this info from, DAYflyer? I want to see it!

Not because I doubt you...but I want to know more! Do you have any idea what airlines would be utilizing the gates? Are they in talks with any other carriers to start service?

There was a recent interview with the airport manager in the Dayton Daily News last week. You may be able to find it in the archives.
One Nation Under God
 
xjramper
Posts: 2318
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:10 am

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 45):
Most expensive:
1. CVG -- No WN service
2. SFO -- No WN service
3. IAD -- WN service recently begun
4. DFW -- No WN service
5. EWR -- No WN service

Is it just coincidence that the top 5 most expensive airports have no (or very recently introduced) WN service?

Or how about other LCC service. It isn't just WN. There are plenty of airports that haven't been infected by WN, and still are much cheaper.

I guess some dont understand that, while yes there are cheap fares flying LCC's, you still end up paying almost as much if not more for a ticket than you do on a legacy carrier. LCC doesn't mean that you are paying cheaper for your fare. The LCC has cut cost from not serving anything other than a drink and a bag of 7 pretzels, and they pay their employees dirt. And as everyone is saying, fly out of a non-hub. Marketing there is cheaper anyways.

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
broke
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:04 pm

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:44 am

My latest experience with airline fares shows how a dominant carrier in one major airport can charge high fares.
In late January I flew round trip SDF-CVG-PVD, PVD-DTW-SDF. My fare was $151.00 per person. At the same time the CVG-PVD-CVG fare was $323.00.
I had booked Delta both ways, but actually flew Delta (or their surrogates) outbound and Northwest return. The fares to and from CVG were Delta fares.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3203
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: CVG Is #1 Again!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 47):
I guess some dont understand that, while yes there are cheap fares flying LCC's, you still end up paying almost as much if not more for a ticket than you do on a legacy carrier.

How does this coincide with the fact that the most expensive cities are places with limited or no LCC presence?

Yes, the legacies will MATCH LCC prices where there are LCCs present. But, without that competition, legacies are more expensive (as the data shows).

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