Noise
Topic Author
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The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:46 pm

Five years after the takeover of TWA by AA, I am still unclear as to why such as move was done. All I seem to understand is that AA inherited TWA's massive debt through the takeover, and a new hub at STL, which it is downsizing. What was the point?
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:55 pm

back in 2000 ORD was running at overcapacity and the summer of 2000 was known commonly as the "summer of hell" due to numerous delays at ORD, etc. DFW was also running at capacity. This was also the time UA and US were looking to merge, threatening to overtake AA as the worlds largest airlines. AA saw an opportunity to have a 3rd mid continent hub to relieve congestion at ORD and DFW, plus bail out financially troubled TWA. A good idea at the time but then we all know 9/11 happened and the after effects of that sent the industry on a downward spiral. Today AA seems to be happy at STL after their cutbacks, its their 4th largest hub and who knows someday when airline industry expansion may take place again they have room to grow again there should they deem necessary.

[Edited 2007-02-28 04:57:03]
 
FlyHoss
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:08 pm

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 1):
back in 2000 ORD was running at overcapacity...

I too, think ORD played a big part in AMR's decision. IIRC, at that time UAL was nearly twice the size of AA at ORD, so aquiring TWA was an opportunity to gain a dominant position at a midwest hub. However, I don't think AA was planning on any significant down-sizing of ORD and there's no argument that STL isn't the huge business O & D market that ORD normally provides.

AA's aquisition of TWA, Reno Air and Air Cal haven't really "panned out" in my opinion, but that's only my opinion.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
steeler83
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 1):
This was also the time UA and US were looking to merge, threatening to overtake AA as the worlds largest airlines.

Wasn't UA already the biggest airline at the time? With AA in second?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
WesternA318
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:34 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 3):
Wasn't UA already the biggest airline at the time? With AA in second?

Noo, AA was already the biggest, but not by much, after swallowing us (TWA), they became even bigger, fleetwise
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CRFLY
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:36 pm

This is supposed to be one of the nastiest acquisition in the airline history of the US. Maybe the events of 9/11 worsen the situation of ex TW's employees... Here is a very good video that tells the story of the men and women who flew as F/A for TW and got dismissed by AA... Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkhI6vfRXHI
With Age comes Wisdom...
 
mrstl
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 2):
AA's aquisition of TWA, Reno Air and Air Cal haven't really "panned out" in my opinion, but that's only my opinion.

AA took competition out of the Midwest, New York and increasing presence at SJU. TWA at the time was suppressing yields in a lot of the markets AA serviced-- mostly due to the Karabu agreement and Lowestfare.com. True they were going to use STL to some capacity but never at the levels of when they bought it. A multitude of events occurred that contributed to the bad timing of the purchase of TWA/STL. 1) UA/US not happening 2) 9/11 3) Delta pulling out of DFW 4) United going bankrupt AA establishing a stronger presence at ORD. None of this helped STL. To top it all off the workforce of TWA was very senior, it is no coincidence that every TWA FA was furloughed and it is not a coincidence that AA's growth will not occur again until after they have fallen off the furlough list.

Yes AA's track record on acquisitions suck!

AA picked up less competition, more slots at LGA, DCA and a warchest of International Routes which they have yet to ultilize and a moderate FF base especially out of STL. They also picked up a lot!! of debt- hope it was worth it.
 
steeler83
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:56 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 4):
Noo, AA was already the biggest, but not by much, after swallowing us (TWA), they became even bigger, fleetwise

Now that is interesting (I thought UA was the biggest airline when they pursued US, but apparently I thought wrong.) AA was bigger, and they got bigger by eating up TWA and nobody stopped them. No American anti-trust groups or monopoly stuff or anything of the sort got involved apparently. Or they did but I guess didn't care or something...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
unitednrt
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:58 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 4):
Noo, AA was already the biggest, but not by much, after swallowing us (TWA), they became even bigger, fleetwise

For that period in time good ol' United was still the largest when compared to just American itself and excluding TWA's system.


Per 2001 Annual Report
-------------------------------------------------------------2001 2000 1999
American Airlines
Revenue passenger miles (millions)--------106,224 116,594 112,067
Available seat miles (millions)----------------153,035 161,030 161,211

United Airlines
Revenue passenger miles----------------------116,635 126,933 125,465
Available seat miles------------------------------164,849 175,485 176,686
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
WesternA318
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:00 pm

Well, guess I was wrong, once again, lol!
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steeler83
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 9):
Well, guess I was wrong, once again, lol!

Heh, that's ok, I am wrong about many things... It's called being human  Smile
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
moman
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:16 pm

The TWA takeover by AA was founded on good intentions. AA would get a lot of common aircraft (757 and the newest MD80s built), gain a reliever hub in the midwest, pick up a strong Caribbean network, and get much needed slots at DCA and NYC area airports. In exchange for an immediate cash payment ($250 million???), TWA filed BK to allow AA to cherry pick the best assets and reject the leases on unnecessary items.

Let's also remember that UA/US had a lot to do with it and the benefits of TWA being able to file bankruptcy made the deal that much sweeter for AA. AA didn't have any problem getting government approval of the deal by pulling the "TWA needed our cash infusion or they would have ceased operations" card.

Too bad that external events (recession, 9/11, dotcom bust) caused the dismantling of the TWA route network and negated many benefits of the merger.
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
unitednrt
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:19 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 9):

You would be surprised how much I am wrong in a day to day setting according to my wife, children, and the list goes on from there.

I was reluctant to post it as many on here like to post in a "guess what!?! you're wrong!" matter, which was the polar opposite of my reply.

Regards,

UnitedNRT
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:19 pm

What remains of the STL network relative to when TWA controlled it? Can anyone find an old OAG schedule and do a before/after?  Smile
 
mrstl
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 13):
What remains of the STL network relative to when TWA controlled it? Can anyone find an old OAG schedule and do a before/after?

Yes, I have a timetable from Sept 2000, I will get back to you on this.
 
moman
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 13):
What remains of the STL network relative to when TWA controlled it? Can anyone find an old OAG schedule and do a before/after? Smile

Let's see, doing this off the top of my head. There were immediate cuts after AA took over, but a vast majority of the TWA route network was in place until Oct 2003.

July 2003: STL 400 daily departures, 202 mainline
Nov 2003: STL 200 daily departures, 50 mainline

July 2003: STL 67 nonstop cities
Nov 2003: STL 27 nonstop cities

STL lost ALL international flying (LGW, CDG, CUN) in November 2003. They also lost the STL-HNL nonstops which were the TWA flagship runs at one time.

What mainline non-stop remains today is the major cities ORD, SEA, SFO, MCO, SAN, LAX, TPA, DFW, TPA, MIA, SAN (i'm sure there are more but I can't think of them right now). Many second tier cities lost non-stops totally like MCI, PDX, PHX and some cities lost mainline nonstops that had been around since the Ozark days like CID, OMH, SGF, DEN.

AA doesn't have near the connecting opportunities in STL either, but it is up somewhat from early 2004.
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
mrstl
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:35 pm

September 2000 491 daily TWA STL departures
September 2006 a little over 200
 
TransWorldSTL
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:40 pm

TW Express out of STL (TWA.com routemap as of November 2001)


TWA Mainline routes out of STL (TWA.come routemap as of Nov 01)



As compared to:

Non-stop routes currently, per Lambert's website... This map includes non-stop from ALL airlines. NOT just AA.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7982/stlrmfn2.gif

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 13):
What remains of the STL network relative to when TWA controlled it? Can anyone find an old OAG schedule and do a before/after? Smile


Edited to put in a bigger TWE map

[Edited 2007-02-28 06:45:45]
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:59 pm

Thanks! The old route maps definitely allow us airline geeks to reminisce. Its too bad about the service that was pulled down, although it looks like at least some new service was actually added as well. Obviously a lot of reductions in frequencies and some market exits too though.
 
PExDCA
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:21 pm

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 18):
Obviously a lot of reductions in frequencies and some market exits too though.

And don't forget that a lot of destinations went from mainline TWA service to American Connection service on RJ's!
"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
 
stlgph
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:22 pm

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 13):
What remains of the STL network relative to when TWA controlled it? Can anyone find an old OAG schedule and do a before/after?

i have a TWA timetable August 2001.
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ckfred
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:42 pm

The summer of 2000 at ORD was just miserable. Between the summer being one of the stormiest that I remember (I've lived in Chicago since 1962) and UA having a meltdown, due to the pilots refusing overtime, AA's operations were a mess.

Having STL would allow AA to reroute passengers, if the weather at ORD went south (Usually Chicago and St. Louis don't have severe thunderstorms or heavy snow at the same time) and it gave O&D traffic for ORD more options. (Once, I couldn't get a non-stop flight out of ORD, but I could change planes at STL, which was much faster than connecting at DFW).

Further, UA and US had 757s with different engines. The plan was for AA to swap TW 757s with UA for US 757s. When the merger didn't go through, AA got stuck with TW's P&W-powered 757d.

Don't forget that AA was going to lease F100s to DC Air, the airline that was supposed to takeover some of US's routes out of DCA. That would have helped AA get rid of a bunch of Fokkers, which had been a headache, and keep the 717s that TW had ordered.

Finally, AA would have gotten all of TW's international routes and authority. AA had ordered 767-300s to replace TW's 767s with P&W engines. But for 9/11, AA would have ordered more 777s and 767s to fly some of the dormant routes.

I do think that as traffic grows, AA will add some flights at STL. AA can't add flights at ORD because of the FAA caps, until the 3rd east-west runway opens and the 2nd control tower is built and operational. That's several years away.
 
tommy767
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:08 pm

For what its worth I flew AA in August 2002 from DFW-HNL and when I arrived adjacent to us was another AA 763 pulling in from STL. They had a nonstop to HNL from STL on AA back in those days. Does anybody know if the 763 on that route would have been operated by AA metal or TWA?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:46 pm

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 22):
For what its worth I flew AA in August 2002 from DFW-HNL and when I arrived adjacent to us was another AA 763 pulling in from STL. They had a nonstop to HNL from STL on AA back in those days. Does anybody know if the 763 on that route would have been operated by AA metal or TWA?

I believe by that point in time the TW 767-300's had been retired, and while the crew may possibly have been TWA I'm almost certain the metal would have been AA, for both STL-HNL and STL-OGG, which was later shifted to ORD.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken....thanks..
 
jsnww81
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:14 am

I'll chime in with a few observations...

To a limited extent, STL does serve as a reliever connecting point for ORD - and it's a godsend when the weather turns bad in Chicago. This past weekend I was attempting to fly from Nashville to Chicago and was originally booked on an AA nonstop. A snowstorm hit ORD and AA promptly canceled all the Chicago flights for a day and a half. I called up the airline, asked to be rerouted through STL, and within ten minutes had a new itinerary. While the airport is in pretty bad shape and it's sad to see so many abandoned gates, connecting at STL is a breeze compared to other large hubs.

I agree that as the airlines get healthier and traffic continues to rebound, AA will once again be glad to have STL in its network. The hub is "right-sized" for American's current climate, but it still has room to grow. ORD is pretty much maxed out at this point, and while the new runways are under construction (I never thought I'd see the day!) there's still almost a decade until the dust will settle. At the end of the day, STL has a place in American's system, and it's encouraging to see that they still call it a hub.
 
PRAirbus
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:29 am

Do not forget, KEEP IN MIND...TWAs FA Union agreed to give up their seniority rights (protection) before TWA was acquired by AA. They were not mislead or deceived...they signed up the OK, they had the choice, no one came back and changed the pre-acquisition agreement like ex-TWA FAs later claimed. They had their day in court and AA was not at fault. TWA FAs knew before they agreed to join AA. The 9/11 tragedy changed the aviation forever and led to the downsizing that dragged ex-TWAs FAs. It was a matter of bad luck...ex-TWA FAs still have recall rights until summer 2008 in the event AA needs to hire new FAs. So far, AA has not justified the manpower need to recall or hire new FAs.
 
TransWorldSTL
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 25):
.ex-TWA FAs still have recall rights until summer 2008 in the event AA needs to hire new FAs. So far, AA has not justified the manpower need to recall or hire new FAs.

I was doing my best to agree with you on your reply, until I read this. That is the biggest joke EVER! Everyone knows AA would undoubtedly be hiring new FA's if the ex-TWA FA's weren't still on the list. "Why bring them back, when we can strain ourselves until 2008, when we can hire brand new ones and pay them less!"

As was said in a different thread, the day after the last TWA guy/gal falls off that list, you should expect a big announcement about AA's new Hiring Program.
 
quickmover
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:32 am

I'm not sure exactly what they paid, but after taking TWA through the bankruptcy courts, they got a bargain for what they retained.
1 a fortress hub. Lots of frequent flyer immediately converted to advantage.
2 slots. TWA had several DCA, LGA, JFK slots and route authorities that went unused.
3 aircraft. Everything was up for renegotiation. TWA had several newer aircraft that they were paying high lease rates on. Through the BK court, AA was able to pick and choose and basically cut the rates on what they wanted big time through AA's good credit.

All in all, I'd say they got a bargain.
 
steeler83
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Moman (Reply 15):
July 2003: STL 400 daily departures, 202 mainline
Nov 2003: STL 200 daily departures, 50 mainline

July 2003: STL 67 nonstop cities
Nov 2003: STL 27 nonstop cities

That looks sadder than what US did with PIT... Hey, both dehubbings/downsizings took place around the same time period, too! With lost N/S service to second tier cities, how about the DC9 to PIT. I don't think that is flown anymore. I believe US retains service to that city now, and I believe that is on US express as well. My how the mighty have fallen...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
stlgph
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 28):
how about the DC9 to PIT

St. Louis to Pittsburgh on TWA in August 2001
735a dc9
1055a m80
120p 717
355p m80
650p 717
938p 717

St. Louis to Pittsburgh on TWA/AA in October 2003
720a ERJ
1022a ERJ
130p ERJ
433p ERJ
750p ERJ

St. Louis to Pittsburgh on TWA/AA in November 2003
740p ERJ

St. Louis to Pittsburgh on AA in June 2004
249p ERJ
742 ERJ

now the service is just US Airways.
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DAYflyer
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 1):
back in 2000 ORD was running at overcapacity and the summer of 2000 was known commonly as the "summer of hell" due to numerous delays at ORD, etc. DFW was also running at capacity. This was also the time UA and US were looking to merge, threatening to overtake AA as the worlds largest airlines. AA saw an opportunity to have a 3rd mid continent hub to relieve congestion at ORD and DFW, plus bail out financially troubled TWA.

A good summation but they also wanted the increased pax and revenue.
One Nation Under God
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:46 am

One of the other "planned benefits" of STL /TWA was that more price sensitive traffic was to be routed via STL than ORD or DFW (to some extent)..freeing up more seats for more profitrable ORD O & D traffic. well, that never quite happened either.
 
flflyguy
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:17 am

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 26):
Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 25):.ex-TWA FAs still have recall rights until summer 2008 in the event AA needs to hire new FAs. So far, AA has not justified the manpower need to recall or hire new FAs.I was doing my best to agree with you on your reply, until I read this. That is the biggest joke EVER! Everyone knows AA would undoubtedly be hiring new FA's if the ex-TWA FA's weren't still on the list. "Why bring them back, when we can strain ourselves until 2008, when we can hire brand new ones and pay them less!"As was said in a different thread, the day after the last TWA guy/gal falls off that list, you should expect a big announcement about AA's new Hiring Program.

Actually, we don't need to hire F/As. The last several months the company has been offering leaves to F/As.

I feel sorry for most of the TWA flight attendants because I am sure most of them are great people. Unfortunately, the radical ones who have done nothing but sue and complain and moan have created a perception that all ex-TW people are militant and awful.

If it were your business, would you want to bring back employees at the top of the pay scale? I'm not saying that it's very compassionate, but it does make economic sense.

The 5 year limit on furlough recalls is somthing that has been in our contract for many, many, many years. There have been discussions about changing that but to do so would require opening the entire contract and the last couple of years have NOT been the time to do that....we'd probably get stuck with even more cuts. Unfortunately for the ex-TW people, the contract does not become amendable until 2008, after the furlough deadline runs out.

AA certainly did not purchase TWA with the intention of gutting St. Louis and furloughing all the employees. The economic downturn and 9/11 made the purchase (in hindsight) rather foolish. Don't you love hindsight?

I think the unescapable reality is that TWA could not have continued to operate at all absent AA's acquisition. As unpleasant as it may seem, at least some of the TWA people still have jobs (pilots, agents, etc.). Without AA, they would ALL be gone.
The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.
 
FURUREFA
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 25):
WAs FA Union agreed to give up their seniority rights (protection) before TWA was acquired by AA.

Actually they only gave away bidding seniority (and some other seniority that i don't remember) but kept their pay seniority. So a TW f/a could have a bidding seniority of 6 months, while being payed high up in the pay scale.

Matt
 
WesternA318
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 32):
As unpleasant as it may seem, at least some of the TWA people still have jobs (pilots, agents, etc.). Without AA, they would ALL be gone.

They basically are all gone, with what AA did to us.
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TransWorldSTL
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 32):

AA certainly did not purchase TWA with the intention of gutting St. Louis and furloughing all the employees. The economic downturn and 9/11 made the purchase (in hindsight) rather foolish.

AA didn't want TW's senior employees... TW had a very senior workforce, which would have cost AA an arm and a leg. There would have been VERY few TW employees left, 9/11 or not.

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 32):
Unfortunately, the radical ones who have done nothing but sue and complain and moan have created a perception that all ex-TW people are militant and awful.

Something had to be done. Those Flight Attendants had many decades of flying with them, and they didn't want it to go down the drain. When AMR wouldn't listen to them, they took legal actions. And now, unfortunately, MANY of your coworkers give off a horrible impression of AA's workforce everytime they treat me like crap because I show my support for TWA, as well as everytime I here a story from an ex-TW worker about how AA crews were extremely hostile towards them in the short time they flew/worked together. These workers have created a perception that all AA people are rude, chronically constipated (nasty looks do this!), and unable to be professional in their work.
 
Noise
Topic Author
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:20 pm

Thanks for the responses guys. So in essense, AA bought over TWA in order to compete with UA in the Midwest.
 
WesternA318
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:50 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 36):
So in essense, AA bought over TWA in order to compete with UA in the Midwest.

Not necessarily, AA bought TWA, to a) remove a competitor from the market b) acquire a DFW/ORD reliever hub in STL c) Add more MD-80's to the fleet d) Position itself to be larger than the propsed at the time UA/US merger.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
ssides
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 32):
I feel sorry for most of the TWA flight attendants because I am sure most of them are great people. Unfortunately, the radical ones who have done nothing but sue and complain and moan have created a perception that all ex-TW people are militant and awful.

Absolutely.

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 32):
AA certainly did not purchase TWA with the intention of gutting St. Louis and furloughing all the employees. The economic downturn and 9/11 made the purchase (in hindsight) rather foolish. Don't you love hindsight?

Again, full agreement.

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 32):
I think the unescapable reality is that TWA could not have continued to operate at all absent AA's acquisition. As unpleasant as it may seem, at least some of the TWA people still have jobs (pilots, agents, etc.). Without AA, they would ALL be gone.

Absolutely, positively 100% true.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
ssides
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting CRFLY (Reply 5):
This is supposed to be one of the nastiest acquisition in the airline history of the US. Maybe the events of 9/11 worsen the situation of ex TW's employees... Here is a very good video that tells the story of the men and women who flew as F/A for TW and got dismissed by AA... Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkhI6...fRXHI

OK, was this supposed to make me sympathetic to the TWA employees that were let go? By telling me that several furloughed TWA F/As are now enjoying the sweet life traveling the world?

TWA was a great airline. So was Pan Am. So was Braniff. So was Eastern.

However, the American business landscape is full of companies that were once great, but couldn't adapt to changing times. TWA is an example of this.

The fact remains that TWA's unions placed their employees at the bottom of the seniority lists at AA. It only makes sense that after 9/11, these employees would be the first to go. If it weren't for the AA acquisition, they'd have been let go long before.
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robsawatsky
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:21 am

Technically speaking, AA did not takeover TWA corporation, they bought some of TWA's airline assets out of CH 11 bankruptcy protection and assumed some of their debts. This method gave AA a lot more control and flexibility over how TWA would be integrated into AA at a lower cost, but there is considerable doubt as to whether it was worth the price to eliminate a weak competitor.
 
tothestars
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:17 am

Press Release of Senator McCaskill
McCaskill Seeks to Protect Workers in Airline Mergers


Wednesday, January 24, 2007



WASHINGTON, D.C. - Today, in a Commerce Committee hearing U.S. Senator Claire McCaskill questioned the Chief Executive Officers of major domestic airlines that are considering consolidation or mergers about the cost to local economies, businesses related to the industry and employees compared to the benefit of a stronger bottom line. McCaskill cited the fallout in Missouri from the merger between Trans World Airlines (TWA) and American Airlines as an example of what can happen when only the bottom line is considered.
"I think there have been so many examples we have seen in corporate America where the decisions have not been as accommodating to the people at the middle and the bottom, as they have been to the people at the very, very top," McCaskill said. "Mediocre C.E.O.s are getting hundreds of millions of dollars while somebody who has spent forty years of their lives working as hard as they know how is out of a job."

McCaskill also focused on those employees furloughed after the events of 9/11 when the industry suffered serious losses. The contract that ensured they be recalled for employment again is set to expire. Many furloughed employees with considerable seniority fear that American Airline is simply trying to wait out the contract in order to hire less experienced candidates with lower salary requirements. Furthermore, taxpayers have provided billions of dollars in relief for the airline industry.

McCaskill pointed to the scenario as a warning to other airlines considering mergers and said she would not give up on the employees like the thousands that suffered after the TWA merger.

"I for one am going to be hollering about these people, and their security and their pensions," McCaskill said. "I think that they're willing to make concessions."
TWA-Airline To the Stars
 
TransWorldSTL
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting ToTheStars (Reply 41):

Yet another reason I'm so glad McCaskill got voted in!
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 34):
They basically are all gone, with what AA did to us.

And without AA, what would have happened? This whine has aged nicely; all we need is some nice cheese. champagne 

Quoting Ssides (Reply 39):
TWA was a great airline. So was Pan Am. So was Braniff. So was Eastern.

However, the American business landscape is full of companies that were once great, but couldn't adapt to changing times. TWA is an example of this.

Agreed. And in each case there is an ex-employee group ready to tell us how they were screwed over by the man. There's always a kernel of truth in that, but overall I think many of them are victims of their own unrealistic expectations. The days of glamour and ever-increasing wages are long gone in this industry. Sad, but long past time to get over it. yes 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
TransWorldSTL
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 43):
And without AA, what would have happened?

Possible funding from Carl Ichan (oh boy!)
Possible merger/buyout from another airline (I think I remember another airline making a bid near the end?)
Possible liquidation. (Which many happen to think would have been a more dignified way to go, than AA)
Possible survival.. Everyone is quick to say there's no way in hell that TWA would have made it without AA because at the time of the buyout they were "close to the end", but you have to think about how TWA had also been in talks with AA for what? Two years before it actually happened? If TW didn't have AA to look forward to for two years, a lot could have been done to try to save themselves.
 
moman
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:30 am

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 44):
Possible funding from Carl Ichan (oh boy!)
Possible merger/buyout from another airline (I think I remember another airline making a bid near the end?)
Possible liquidation. (Which many happen to think would have been a more dignified way to go, than AA)
Possible survival.. Everyone is quick to say there's no way in hell that TWA would have made it without AA because at the time of the buyout they were "close to the end", but you have to think about how TWA had also been in talks with AA for what? Two years before it actually happened? If TW didn't have AA to look forward to for two years, a lot could have been done to try to save themselves.

1. Not a viable option, employees would have revolted and shut TWA down themselves.
2. Continental and AirTran both expressed interest.
3. Wouldn't have happened immediately. After 9/11 a high probablilty unless they got the Gov't loan, but not until then. (and if you go to refute my point, I want to see EVIDENCE, not just a general belief as is commonly stated).
4. AA came along summer 2000, not two years before.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 37):
Not necessarily, AA bought TWA, to a) remove a competitor from the market b) acquire a DFW/ORD reliever hub in STL c) Add more MD-80's to the fleet d) Position itself to be larger than the propsed at the time UA/US merger.

That is the most concise answer so far in this thread if you add e)acquire dormant route authorities for next-to-nothing
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
mrstl
Posts: 353
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:27 am

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 44):
Possible merger/buyout from another airline (I think I remember another airline making a bid near the end?)

There was another group known as JAG- Jets Acquisition Group, they were a competing bidder during the process but could not get their financing together in time. They were not a desirable acquirer for the employee groups at that time, bet they might see it differently now.

[Edited 2007-03-02 02:38:04]
 
snn2003
Posts: 221
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:48 am

I also remember hearing from someone that GE wanted to buy TWA, can anyone confirm this? Would GE have just dismantled them or let then continue ops?
SNN
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elmothehobo
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 44):
Possible liquidation. (Which many happen to think would have been a more dignified way to go, than AA)

Dignified? Please, TWA was an amazing airline and did a lot to shape the airline industry, but this whole go down with the ship mentality has got to go. 9-11 was going to be the end of TWA, Carl Icahn wouldn't drop a penny into TWA after the events, and no financier or lender would think about giving an airline that failed to turn a profit during the boom years of the late 90s funds to keep flying during the biggest slump in modern aviation.

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 44):
Possible survival.. Everyone is quick to say there's no way in hell that TWA would have made it without AA because at the time of the buyout they were "close to the end", but you have to think about how TWA had also been in talks with AA for what? Two years before it actually happened? If TW didn't have AA to look forward to for two years, a lot could have been done to try to save themselves.



Quoting Moman (Reply 45):
4. AA came along summer 2000, not two years before.

American announced the buyout in early 2001.

Quoting Moman (Reply 45):
2. Continental and AirTran both expressed interest.

Continental was in a precarious position as well. Adding the debt load of a TWA buyout would have left Continental crippled after 9-11, even with the government handouts.

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 46):
There was another group known as JAG- Jets Acquisition Group, they were a competing bidder during the process but could not get their financing together in time. They were not a desirable acquirer for the employee groups at that time, bet they might see it differently now.

...which would have gutted TWA in a way that would make American Airlines' gutting of the airline look like child's play.

American Airlines buying TWA was a smart move, at the time. TWA had plenty of planes that fit into American's fleet, they had a midwestern hub, significant JFK, SJU, LAX, BOS and LGA operations, all cities that American maintained as focus cities, and was available on the cheap.

The merger may well have been a success had 9-11 not happened. Plain and simple. Unfortunately for American and TWA, the merger never had a chance to prove its worth because, only days after the biggest step of flight integration to date was announced, 9-11 happened.
 
WesternA318
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RE: The Point Of AA Taking Over TWA?

Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 43):
And without AA, what would have happened? This whine has aged nicely; all we need is some nice cheese.

Either way, we were screwed, either from bankruptcy.liquidation or through the AA rape/pillage.

Quoting Moman (Reply 45):
2. Continental and AirTran both expressed interest.

CO was not in a precarious position in 2000, they had just reported their 5th or 6th year of straight profits and were No. 1 in MANY rankings. Fleet-wise, the only planes to go would have been the DC-9's as they had retired their own fleet by 16-1998, the 767-300's would probablyalso have gone to the desert, as well as the 717 fleet. At the time, CO was slowly retiring the MD-80 fleet, although 9/11 huried it up, and the DC-10's were also on the way out. AirTran was in the middle of of swapping out their ex-Valujet/Delta/Eastern/TWA DC-9's with brand spankin' new 717's. They wouldnt have the cash to pull off a merger, although in 1997, they came awfully close by entering opening negotiations with TWA for a possible buyout.


Quoting MrSTL (Reply 46):
There was another group known as JAG- Jets Acquisition Group,

Partially-funded by a shell corporation under the ownership of Phillip Bakes. NOT a likely candidate for a massive airline turnaround.
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