peh
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Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:01 pm

Indonesian authorities are proposing a ban on all aircraft older than 10 years. This follows a spate of accidents, including the loss of a 737 and all souls earlier this year.

Is this not the most absurd, idiotic, totally pointless safety measure ever taken in the history of aviation???? I would much rather travel on a 20 year old plane that has been well maintained than a 5 year old plane that hasn't.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/pl...ding/2007/02/28/1172338694458.html

[Edited 2007-02-28 09:12:09]
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ENU
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:24 pm

Actually, there is some point in it. With such a measure malafide airline companies, which ignore safety rules, are indirectly forced to leave the sector, because they cannot come up with the capital required to acquire new aircraft.
 
peh
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting ENU (Reply 1):
malafide airline companies, which ignore safety rules, are indirectly forced to leave the sector

This is a bit extreme when there are so many other ways to achieve the same result. I mean, the authorities need to balance safety with the need to keep people flying. The demise of several local carriers will only hurt the aviation industry without necessarily improving safety. A double whammy for fliers.
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PEET7G
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:46 pm

What makes them believe that those who can not maintain or fly safely an over 10 years old plane, will be able to operate responsibly a younger one? 10 years? That excludes lot of "new" designs... A320s and 737NGs even... this whole plan is as silly as the authorities in that country.  banghead 
Peet7G
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:48 pm

I wouldn't bother too much about it. The idea is as moronic as the people behind it, and yet another display of the entire Indonesian society's lack of self criticism. It is easier to come up with a measure like this one because it implicitly shifts the blame for a spate of recent mishaps away from the local operators and towards the aircraft constructors. Earlier, the Indonesian Government has also issued a ban on the use of the B732, which is due to come into effect sometime next year. Unfortunately, the latest calamities with Adam Air involved the B734 and B733 respectively.

That said, nothing will likely ever be heard again about this proposal. As it goes, the Minister of Transportation, after a string of air, sea and railway accidents, is struggling to hang on to his job and wants to be seen to be tough these days. He's an idiot, which would be quite ok if it weren't for that fact that he is also utterly incompetent. He is now replacing the top bureaucrats in his ministry with equally incompetent individuals, in hopes of getting out of the country's transportation quagmire, but an end to the current woes is unfortunately not in sight. To the contrary, things will likely get worse before they might ever improve. There is no such thing as rock bottom in Indonesia...
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:00 pm

Would this though just be aircraft registered in Indonesia? If so, then the airlines would simply re-register their fleets else-where, a little like many ships are.


Dan Smile
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:05 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
Would this though just be aircraft registered in Indonesia? If so, then the airlines would simply re-register their fleets else-where, a little like many ships are.

This strategy is unlikely to work as the Indonesian government does not allow non-PK registrations to operate in the country's domestic network. All aircraft used for domestic operations have to be registered here - a registration process, which, I might add, is a very lucrative business for those government officials involved, as envelopes stacked with cash are likely to change hands throughout the entire process.
 
peh
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:45 pm

Not too long ago, I remember reading an article about the Indonesian President's 33 year old Fokker F-28. So, will this plane be banned from the skies along with the 737's? It would be over three times the authorised age.

http://english.people.com.cn/200607/05/eng20060705_280321.html
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nitrohelper
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 6):
a very lucrative business for those government officials involved, as envelopes stacked with cash are likely to change hands throughout the entire process.

For those folks in the world that haven't done business with the Indonesian bureaucrats , let me add to this fine quote. The smoothness of the envelope system is one thing that has been refined, and is operated efficiently in Indoland.
The bigger the projects, , , the fatter the envelopes, and the more junior staffers happy to learn the system. And if someone in the chain asks for "too much" in his position , there is always another staff member ready to "help-out".
How can you make a $1000 dollars a month salary, and drive a BMW, have a Singapore condo, and a villa in the mountains, some kids in school abroad? Well I guess 25-30 years of "government service" should do it.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:59 am

If their Maintenance is Suspect.Tackle that.No point Banning an Aircraft over 20 yrs.
An Aircraft well maintained can fly on much beyond that.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting Peh (Thread starter):
Indonesian authorities are proposing a ban on all aircraft older than 10 years.

Why not ban pilots over 10 years old? From what I've read they're at least as much to blame as the planes....
 duck 
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
gffgold
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:10 pm

Many apologies, blush, I posted a quote from today's Jakarta Post on a new thread which should have been posted here:

source www.thejakartapost.com

>Following a spate of fatal accidents in the transportation sector, the government is considering banning the operation of aircraft and ships that are more than 10 years old, Transportation Minister Hatta Radjasa says.

Hatta said that in addition to reducing the maximum permissible age of aircraft and ships, the government would also allocate more money for the maintenance of transportation infrastructure, including airports and seaports.

"Our focus now is passenger safety," Hatta said Wednesday after a meeting with Vice President Jusuf Kalla, which took place on board a train during a one-day inspection by Kalla of the railway between Jakarta and Yogyakarta.

A series of major accidents have occurred over the past few months, including the capsizing of a ferry in the Java Sea, the crash of an aircraft operated by Adam Air in the Makassar Strait, and the recent fire aboard the Levina I ferry just offshore from Jakarta's Tanjung Priok Port.

Between 80 and 90 percent of the aircraft operating in Indonesia are more than 10 years old. At present, the maximum permissible age of a commercial aircraft is 35 years.
<<

As others have said, this is basically just hot air so that the officials concerned look like they are doing something - even if that something is just talking about crazy ideas. Even if, by some miracle, this nonsense was put into action notice that it is a very cheap and easy option for the transportation ministry to dictate an arbitrary ban rather than enforcing or augmenting existing safety regulations.
 
GneissGuy
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:15 pm

Maintainance and safety regulations/checks/enforcement is the key, not aircraft age.

Period.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting GneissGuy (Reply 12):
Maintainance and safety regulations/checks/enforcement is the key, not aircraft age.

Tell that to the bright lights in the Indonesian Government! Then again, most of the people are barely educated and completely out of touch with reality. I don't expect to come anything of it, but meanwhile the headline surves an interesting purpose: to shift the blame away from the abysmal track records of some of the domestic operators and towards the aircraft constructors. Indonesians will do anything not to have to admit mistakes, and this is yet another example of that attitude.

As stated in the article, between 80 and 90 percent of the aircraft registered in Indonesia (my personal estimate is that the number is actually closer to if not exceeding 90 percent) are older than 10 years, so such a ban would inevitable decimate the domestic air travel in Indonesia, including the comfortable business travel on Garuda Indonesia for those government officials and their extended families.

Meanwhile, the shabby track records of the airline companies once again remains largely untouched by the ongoing discussions. Let's not forget that quite some powerful people within the government and the military are behind many of these airlines, and behind the scenes pressure has undoubtedly been mounted in order to let the airlines get away with their practices.
 
gffgold
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:29 pm

An even more dippy discussion was reported in the Jak Post the other day (sorry, can't find the article now) about the Jakarta city council buying a substantial stake in Garuda. It would just about finish GA off to have those guys calling the shots - as witness their attempts to manage the capital's drainage during recent flooding.
 
nitrohelper
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting GFFgold (Reply 14):
as witness their attempts to manage the capital's drainage during recent flooding.

Not to mention the 60 years since the Dutch stopped the Maintenance ! The current government has been building a "solution " for the last 20 years, , , just not finished yet . They just need to buy all the land & then start construction someday ?
 
access-air
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:18 am

Sounds like of a simple fix to cover up their own internal problems with their airlines.....
Nigeria did that with the BAC One Elevens....Hop in them and fly them without regard of Weight and balance or being over weight or flying in ALL weather no matter what and flying by the seat of your pants....Oh yes the logical answer was to ground all those big, bad, naughty old airplanes.....
How about grounding all those bag,bad, naughty pilots that ned to go back to Cessna 152 school??????

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
peh
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:55 am

I'd forgotten about the BAC One Elevens. It seems that this level of stupidity isn't unprecedented.


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gffgold
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:22 am

What a picture! I know it's going off topic for this thread but I'm fascinated to know this BAC1-11 story.
 
kretek
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:05 am

I would take this as a pinch of salt i.e not to be taken seriously. The transportation minister Hatta was most likely steaming off hot air and making knee-jerk remarks. The Jakarta Post ran an editorial about him in that he should resign after a spate of public transport incidents. On Metro TV, on of the the satire comedy programs, they portray Hatta as lazy, dosing off to sleep at his desk - which basically sums it up.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:38 pm

Quoting Kretek (Reply 19):

What do the Regulatory Authorities say.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
UK_Dispatcher
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:54 pm

This proposal is just absolutely moronic and this whole situation is becoming an embrassment to the country of Indonesia. What has become apparent is that there is not a single person in the Indonesian government who has figured that a well maintained aircraft is safe no matter what its age.

I guess this means that almost every airline in Indonesia will need to replace its fleet. Pathetic!
 
mandala499
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:59 pm

Quote:
Actually, there is some point in it. With such a measure malafide airline companies, which ignore safety rules, are indirectly forced to leave the sector, because they cannot come up with the capital required to acquire new aircraft.

Oh believe me they will find the capital to acquire new aircraft... So, this policy will make new planes get ruined faster...

It's a case of blaming something that's not to blame... for the umpteenth time !

After "protests" (or more like logic prevailing) over the past 24hrs, today a new press release was made, that the previous announcement was directed at new aircraft coming into Indonesia.

Again, this is still total baloney and it will basically strangle most of the airlines in the meantime.

Now, isn't this also coincidental that the airline he's "close to" is going to have waves of factory fresh aircraft this year? There are "rumours" that the Minister of Transport and the Vice President has money in that carrier.

Rumours of such an announcement like this was already running around the industry since 2005. Previously, this rumour was that Lion Air would continue having their MD80s overrunning at every plausible opportunity, and that when their MD80 has another fatal crash, the minister would ban the aircraft type, hence Lion can claim force majeure on the leases... then the series of Adam Air mishaps again, and the rumour was quicklyforgotten until 1Jan this year.

There are expected parallels to the previous rumour. The director of Air Comms is getting the sack, as expected, and it has been suspected for a while that letting him stay in that position was deliberate.

However, a ban on >10yr old aircraft coming into the country is extremely convenient for Lion, with Batavia struggling to come up with a few more Airbuses, and recently "rumoured" to have resorted into seeking used A320s, and having their 732/4s being cannibalized to keep the remainder of the fleet going. With Adam now having a cash drain and freefalling yields, the only other big competitors (not state owned) left for Lion Air will be Sriwijaya, and Indo Air Asia. Indo Air Asia's long string of delays due to lack of spares (yes Thank You Mr. Fernandez!) is being looked at with great interest by the Department of Transport, and their whole fleet consists of early built 733s. Then Sriwijaya, who have been doing magic with their old fleet of 732s, recently, it is said that it is getting "more difficult" to import spare parts for the 732s, and that their growth is halted due to the ban on incoming 732s imposed last year. This announcement would throw its plans to introduce the 734s into its fleet middle of this year.

What will happen is that while good players are getting hit, there'll be more dirty money being aired to pay for new planes for "naughty operators"... which will make the skies more dangerous!

Furthermore, the infrastructure cannot accept large scale introduction of the A32X and NG family. The whole infrastructure hasn't even finished adapting to the move from F28/DC9 to 732/734 standards! With A32X and NG becoming the "mandatory standard", expect a few ground collissions involving wingtips unless the infrastructure is upgraded/expanded.

There are a few very good start up projects that have been hit by the Adam Air crash, and now this announcement... If this announcement becomes law, then expect mass bankruptcies of the airlines here next year (where a LOT of fleet rejuvenation plans have scheduled mass rejuvenation to <20yr old aircraft)...

Or perhaps this is a way for the minister to say to the soon to go Director of AIr Comms, "You've shown yourself publicly to be with Adam, so I'm now showing my airline affiliation..."

LOL

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
bennett123
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:05 pm

Clearly banning all aircraft over 10 years will help, no plane ever crashed when it was safely parked in a hangar  Smile

Terrible shame about the Benin City BAC111's.

Are they still sitting there rotting away?.

David
 
peh
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:55 am

A guy bythe name of Peter Clark has put together a website on the One Eleven. It's not the most sophisticated site I've ever seen but it's informative. It shows a significant number of the aircraft still grounded in Nigeria.

http://www.bac1-11jet.co.uk/bac1-11jet.co.uk%20Stored%20Fleet.htm
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SJCRRPAX
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:33 pm

They need to ban the ferry boats too. I believe they have a ferry boat sink almost every year taking 300, 400, 500 people everytime. I seem to remember one just last December. Indonesia has some serious problems with their entire transportation infrastructure, not just planes.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:33 pm

Well, Nigeria (another country infamous for their lack of aviation safety) suggested this before, I like to call it "the Nigerian
solution".
If this happens, will East Timor be a place for flags of convenient?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
usair320
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:22 am

Makes no sence. If companys like Adam air would just get their S*** together then this wouldnt be an issue.
 
peh
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:12 pm

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 25):
They need to ban the ferry boats too. I believe they have a ferry boat sink almost every year

How about cars over 10 years old? Bikes? Skateboards? Pogo Sticks? Segways... probably a bit early for that.  Smile
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gffgold
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting Usair320 (Reply 27):
If companys like Adam air would just get their S*** together then this wouldnt be an issue.

True, but until the central government gets its own S*** together Adam can do pretty much what he likes. Mandala499 hit the nail on the head - a ban on 10yr+ imports will actually BENEFIT operations like Adam who have enough 'hot' money and credit to buy new frames, by strangling the competition who don't have access to that kind of finance.

Mandala499 mentions the case of Sriwijaya. I have a soft spot for that little airline because they have made a real effort to get their act together with very limited resources. They'll never compete with SQ or CX, but they're doing their best to offer customer service on a shoestring and with - by Indonesian standards, anyway - reasonable ethics.

What I cannot understand is how Adam still manages to operate a route into SIN. 'Backing' will get you anywhere within Indonesia but its benefits rarely extend across the Mallacca Strait - so how do they keep the Changi run?
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting GFFgold (Reply 29):
What I cannot understand is how Adam still manages to operate a route into SIN.

As far as I can see, they are barely hanging in there. The second daily service is often cancelled and even the morning service is operating at a load factor of not much more than 50% on average. From the look of it, it seems to be not much more than an exercise in prestige and keeping up appearances, as I cannot believe that the Singapore flight is making them a lot of money. Let's not forget that also Lion Air miserably failed with its Singapore services - initially offering 4 daily services, the airline quickly reduced its offerings to 2 daily flights, and after that to just one, after the termination of the Saigon tag ons. It seems as if the CGK SIN market is featuring passengers with at least a couple of brain cells more than the those using the Indonesian domestic services and these people chose reliabilty and safety over uncertainty and shabbyness, even if the former comes at a couple of dollars more.
 
mandala499
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:45 pm

Quote:
What I cannot understand is how Adam still manages to operate a route into SIN. 'Backing' will get you anywhere within Indonesia but its benefits rarely extend across the Mallacca Strait - so how do they keep the Changi run?

How? You'd probably notice if you sit in Changi everyday that it's served by no more than 3 aircraft from Adam's fleet, with 1 being the most regular... It's not hard to well maintain 1 aircraft to keep up a good face and leave the rest of the fleet in shambles.

Adam and Sriwijaya has just received a blow this week, with Batavia now refusing to allow them the use of its 732 simulators (competition cited as main reason). While SJ immediately scrambled to find 732 sims elsewhere, Adam probably is trying to use force to keep 7P's simulators available.

GFFGold, well, that's what pax like SJ for... making old planes reliable (thanks to its MRO, AeroNusantara)... There are internal politics between the ethical and the unethical... but this is normal with the airlines here, the difference is, most of the time, the good wins... and as usual again, the struggle is within the owner's family.

Interesting times ahead... with rumours now appearing about potential change at the heads of several airlines (GA included).

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
peh
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:28 pm

Just heard about the Garuda 734. Does anyone have any idea how old this aircraft was?

http://www.smh.com.au/news/general/7...ster/2007/03/07/1173166755482.html
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Alessandro
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:36 pm

According to http://www.aviation-safety.net it was born in 1992.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
PEET7G
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RE: Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!

Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:43 pm

Well this crash will probably give new wind to the sails of the idiots coming up with these stupid regulations, without addressing the real issues in the aviation business in Indonesia  Sad
Prayers to the poor souls who fell victim of this latest incident...
Peet7G