jimyvr
Posts: 1597
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:08 pm

TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:02 am

Brazil's TAM is poised to strike a deal with Lufthansa for codesharing as the Brazilian carrier is preparing to re-launch Sao Paulo - Frankfurt soon

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...de-shares-as-varig-quits-star.html


..............The source does not identify Lufthansa by name but makes clear that TAM expects Varig to withdraw from the route soon from the route after losing access to the Star Alliance hub in Frankfurt..................
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:06 am

That would be absolutely superb! Finally a decent South American airline as partner for LH!!!  thumbsup  ... now if they could only get JJ into the Star Alliance...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:30 am

There are strong indications that VARIG will cease operations GIG-GRU-FRA because the 2 MD-11s they use for the route will be returned to lessor.

Yet again, there are strong indications that TAM is very close to a deal for flights distribution, i.e. codeshare, with LH. TAM was also invited to join Star Alliance. As for now, it seems that it is getting very difficult for TAM to have the best of all the world: AA in MIA, AF in CDG and in the future LH in FRA. This is not sustainable and TAM will need to make up its mind. If TAM closes a deal with LH, I am sure AF will not renew its agreement with TAM and with TAM's 3 daily flights to CDG will become unsustainable.

On the other hand, all airlines are after TAM because they need to distribute pax in Brazil and/or Southern Cone. Today TAM announced a new management position which overseas international alliances, so the airline is giving greater importance to the issue.

Rgs,
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):

Do you think it would be feasible for JJ to split certain markets between AF and LH?

Say LH keeps German connections as well as Scandinavian + Japan.

AF keeps European + Africa and the rest of Asia.

Or something similar. . .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Avianca
Posts: 5283
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:00 pm

would be just great if true.... hopefully TAM is on the way to star....
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13091
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:07 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 1):
... now if they could only get JJ into the Star Alliance...

 checkmark 

With RG leaving the alliance after their bankruptcy, JJ is pretty much the only suitable candidate for any alliance at all.
 
andahuailas
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:32 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:27 pm

Relaunch ????????


IThey never served FRA before, this would be a launch, not relaunch
 
airmale
Posts: 7125
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:48 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:21 pm

Andahuallas: of course TAM flew to Frankfurt with extension to Zurich for a short while in 2001 if i remember correctly...
.....up there with the best!
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:39 pm

Quoting AirMale (Reply 7):
Andahuallas: of course TAM flew to Frankfurt with extension to Zurich for a short while in 2001 if i remember correctly...

Correct, TAM served GRU-FRA-ZRH for about 6 months in 2001. However, the route proved was not sustainable - bear in mind 2001 was a year "atypical" for the aviation industry with many airlines closing routes.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Do you think it would be feasible for JJ to split certain markets between AF and LH?

In practical terms, I dont think this is feasible. But TAM has all factors on its side because carriers need a partner in Brazil to distribute pax. AF last year was in talks with GOL if an agreement with TAM could not be reached.

Rgs,
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:55 pm

Very nice to see JJ at FRA. They were one of the few major carriers missing there. Germany and Brazil have a lot of traffic between them, maybe JJ will someday use their biggest planes for the route to FRA. Any news about MUC?
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:01 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Any news about MUC

LH already serves MUC-GRU daily. We could expect LH to reintroduce FRA-GIG in the future, with the process acelerated under an umbrela agreement LH-TAM. I think FRA-GIG nonstop is one of the major gaps currently in Europe-Brazil operations. All in all, LH-LX need to reconsider their operations to South America since the airline is far behind AF-KL which serve nonstop GRU, GIG, EZE, and SCL. Star is in desperate need of a partner in Brazil.

Rgs,
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting Andahuailas (Reply 6):
They never served FRA before, this would be a launch, not relaunch

As already mentioned, they most certainly did serve FRA, though, unfortunately, not for long... I booked quite a few people on those flights back then, and I had tons of extra work when they axed the flights and I had to change all those bookings...

And, yes, they flew their own planes here - it was no codeshare nor anything else... we had TAM planes here at the airport.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:27 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
TAM was also invited to join Star Alliance. As for now, it seems that it is getting very difficult for TAM to have the best of all the world: AA in MIA, AF in CDG and in the future LH in FRA. This is not sustainable and TAM will need to make up its mind.

i think they are making up their minds. it seems they are testing out the major partners of the three major alliances and sometime down the road, they could end up in one of the three alliances.

from today's perspective wouldn't the combined forces of JJ and TP (if it was Star) and to a lesser extent those of JJ and IB (if it was onewolrd) raise regulatory concerns on routes across the South Atlantic?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
All in all, LH-LX need to reconsider their operations to South America since the airline is far behind AF-KL which serve nonstop GRU, GIG, EZE, and SCL. Star is in desperate need of a partner in Brazil.

i don't understand why so many people on this forum claim that LH must redesign the Latin American network. Granted, LH's network lacks the nonstop service and destinations as a combined AF/KL entity. however, those carriers lag behind LH when it comes to Asian service, and this is where the money is.
I am not claiming that AF/KL are losing money in South America, as their expansion in this area suggests they're doing fine. clearly, the LH and AF/KL groups have different strategies and LH focuses less on South America, with the exception of Brazil.
this is why I am very sure that any LH service to GIG would indeed be routed via GRU. this way, LH could further expand its mini-hub at GRU to not only offering onestop connections from FRA, MUC, ZRH to SCL and EZE, but also include GIG (note: the current MUC-GRU daylight service is rumored to become a late night departure soon, thus enabling LH/LX connections at GRU).
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 12):
i don't understand why so many people on this forum claim that LH must redesign the Latin American network. Granted, LH's network lacks the nonstop service and destinations as a combined AF/KL entity. however, those carriers lag behind LH when it comes to Asian service, and this is where the money is.

But I don't see that KLM/AF is in any way weaker in Asia than LH/LX.

KLM/AF has nonstops to MNL, SGN, KUL, Chendgu. All destinations which are only onestop with LH, or not even existend as Chendgu.
The only region in Asia where LH is little bit in front of AF/KLM might by India. But thats it. To everywhere else KLM/AF is as strong or even stronger than LH/LX.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 12):
from today's perspective wouldn't the combined forces of JJ and TP (if it was Star) and to a lesser extent those of JJ and IB (if it was onewolrd) raise regulatory concerns on routes across the South Atlantic?

I think JJ in oneworld would give a dangerously high dominance in South America not just from the transatlantic perspective - you already have the 4 LAN airlines ( OK 2 LAN airlines with 2 more joining ) , AA and IB all in OW ( not to mention the possibility of LA ending up with a stake in the new Varig if it survives ) .

My own preference would definitely be for JJ to join Star ( although I admit this is more due to the fact that for anyone from Australia / New Zealand Skyteam is very much the "who?" alliance since they are pretty much useless in that corner of the world ) . I believe that recently JJ management were quoted as saying that their current preference was to develop bilateral agreements rather than plunging into an alliance - but this is the aviation industry where last weeks press release is often contradicted by this weeks , so I guess we will have to wait and see .
 
stylo777
Posts: 2013
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting Andahuailas (Reply 6):
Relaunch ????????


IThey never served FRA before, this would be a launch, not relaunch


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Spijkers

 
kiwiandrew

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 15):

Thanks for the photo Stylo777 - is it just me or was that an RR powered A330 ? I thought that JJ had PW powered A330s?
 
stylo777
Posts: 2013
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 16):
Thanks for the photo Stylo777 - is it just me or was that an RR powered A330 ? I thought that JJ had PW powered A330s?

this is an ex Gulf Air aircraft and already in service with GF again. it is RR Trent 772B-60 powered.

the a330's they use actually are all equipped with CF6-80E1A3 and PW4168A engines IIRC.

[Edited 2007-03-01 14:24:42]
 
AirSpare
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:13 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:32 pm

Slightly OT-

As the thread migrated to JJ's possible alliance preferences, does Star, OneWorld, etc. negogiate for aircraft purchase/discounts?

What alliance would make most sense for JJ, route wise? Aircraft purchase wise?

As I work in LAD every once in a while, it sure would be nice to fly JJ LAD-GRU-NAT-GRU-MIA-MCO rather then the torture LAD-LHR-MIA-MCO, stop for paper work, MCO-MIA-GRU-NAT and back to MCO-MIA-LHR-LAD.

Point to Point please! Come on JJ, open a mini hub in the Nordeste!
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 12):
LH when it comes to Asian service, and this is where the money is.

You are wrong.

AF/KL operations in GIG, GRU, EZE, CCS, and even CCS, SCL, LIM - all operated NONSTOP - and are very profitable. Particularly GRU, GIG and EZE are a "cash machine" for AF/KL, and can beat any destination in Asia in terms of profits and yields.

AF/KL had demonstrated that with the righ network, South American flights are highly lucrative.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 12):
LH service to GIG would indeed be routed via GRU

LH will never manage to compete with LH if it decides to route GIG flight via GRU. For your information, AF already announced 6 added nonstop CDG-FRA which will increase its flights CDG-GIG nonstop to 11 weekly flights. If LH wants anything out of GIG, it needs nonstop flight. I hold the same comment about EZE and SCL. This means LH should still focus on GRU, however, destinations such as EZE and GIG cannot be competitive without nonstop flights at current market conditions.

In sum, LH so far had manage very poorly its operations in South America and needs to do a lot of homework to catch up with AF/KL.

Rgs,
 
stylo777
Posts: 2013
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
LH will never manage to compete with LH if it decides to route GIG flight via GRU. For your information, AF already announced 6 added nonstop CDG-FRA which will increase its flights CDG-GIG nonstop to 11 weekly flights. If LH wants anything out of GIG, it needs nonstop flight. I hold the same comment about EZE and SCL. This means LH should still focus on GRU, however, destinations such as EZE and GIG cannot be competitive without nonstop flights at current market conditions.

LH isn't focussing so much on South America. Their cash-maschines are North America and Asia. This is the reason why they only have 3 flights to South America:
FRA-GRU-EZE
FRA-CCS
MUC-GRU
and they are doing good on that ones. that's enough for them I guess.

If they wouldn't code-share with LX on GRU-SCL I could believe to see FRA-GIG-SCL in the future, but now I don't think that they will lunch that one.
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 20):
LH isn't focussing so much on South America. Their cash-maschines are North America and Asia.

Thank you! for underlining my arguments.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
You are wrong.

AF/KL operations in GIG, GRU, EZE, CCS, and even CCS, SCL, LIM - all operated NONSTOP - and are very profitable. Particularly GRU, GIG and EZE are a "cash machine" for AF/KL, and can beat any destination in Asia in terms of profits and yields.

AF/KL had demonstrated that with the righ network, South American flights are highly lucrative.

Dude, I am very aware that those are nonstop flights. Also, I explicitly stated in my post that there network is seemingly doing quite well, otherwise they would not expand it. Still, I have strong doubts that GIG can beat any Asia destination in terms of yield. GRU could probably come close, for LH it does.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
LH will never manage to compete with LH if it decides to route GIG flight via GRU. For your information, AF already announced 6 added nonstop CDG-FRA which will increase its flights CDG-GIG nonstop to 11 weekly flights. If LH wants anything out of GIG, it needs nonstop flight. I hold the same comment about EZE and SCL.

that's my point. i agree they can't compete with AF/KL in terms of convenient nonstop destinations. but I'm quite sure LH doesn't want to and doesn't have to compete with them on the same level. South America seems to be a focus area for AF/KL, but not so with LH. this is nothing but a sign of different strategies for this area of the world of Europe's largest network carriers, it doesn't have to be a sign of low or no profits for LH.

some years ago, LH was serving EZE on a nonstop basis but incurring nothing but losses. they hoped to turn it around when they put the new A346s into service on that route, and the rest is histroy. if it had been successful, they would have maintained this service, but they reverted back to onestop service through GRU and they seem to be happier with it this way.

is it so unimaginable that LH now has a more viable Latin American network, routing most flights through GRU, than before? so if it is viable, and if it's not their focus area, why should they invest significantly into competing with AF/KL if that was a very difficult road to travel?
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
Still, I have strong doubts that GIG can beat any Asia destination in terms of yield. GRU could probably come close, for LH it does.

In the case of AF, GIG beats many asiain destinations. GRU is no comment, one of the strongest markets worldwide. What I said and I repeat is that LH is missing out in South America to AF/KL and, yes, AF/KL get profits and yields in South America as high as and even higher than as compared to Asian destinations.

LH is doing a terrible job in South America. It is a question of management. Look at AF performance in GIG, it is a very profitable flight. The bottom line is that AF/KL is outperforiming LH in the region perhaps because LH had this "false" anectodal understanding such as "GIG is low-yield", AF prove this wrong.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
LH doesn't want to and doesn't have to compete with them on the same level.

For me it is a question of poor management.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
s it so unimaginable that LH now has a more viable Latin American network, routing most flights through GRU, than before?

I dont think LH mini-hub in GRU is working. Sorry to disagree. AF strategy was much better and now LH has plenty to cath up, especially in markets such as EZE and GIG.

Rgs,
 
LH459
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:41 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:02 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
For me it is a question of poor management.

Allegations of poor management for one of the most consistently profitable airlines in the world? I'm sorry, that is very hard to accept. I think Johnnybgoode understands LH's position in South America quite well.
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Brazil's TAM is poised to strike a deal with Lufthansa for codesharing as the Brazilian carrier is preparing to re-launch Sao Paulo - Frankfurt soon

If it's become real, probably AF-JJ partnership could be ended or even reduced. A LH-JJ partnership IMO will take TAM to run GRU-CDG with a single 77W plane in 2008. As TAM has two A332 to be received later this year, they could run the GRU-FRA flight, but i believe Tam will face some hard time with AF at CDG.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
Thank you! for underlining my arguments.

I understand and agree that LH doesn't focus on Latin America. But IMO, as they have a strong focus on Asia, where the competition is become stronger (while only Tam and Lan nowadays are real competitors with limited widebodies fleet, Asian players are every month receiving many widebodies and increasing the routes and links with US and Europe), in the near future they will face a reduction of their profits, while AF, with a worldwide more balanced network, and not so focused on Asia, will take the advantage of other markets that could not grow so much as Asia, but where they are major players.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
For your information, AF already announced 6 added nonstop CDG-FRA which will increase its flights CDG-GIG nonstop to 11 weekly flights

Little correction: not CDG-FRA, CDG-GIG and 13 weekly flights.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
some years ago, LH was serving EZE on a nonstop basis but incurring nothing but losses. they hoped to turn it around when they put the new A346s into service on that route, and the rest is history. if it had been successful, they would have maintained this service, but they reverted back to one stop service through GRU and they seem to be happier with it this way

The only one happier is AF that received SCL, EZE and GIG as exclusive markets. LH has poor results in Brazil, a possible little profit last year and just because they run the network now with 3 planes only instead of 4 in the past. And the SCL-GRU continues for sure to face loss of money. Use to be with A346 while GRU-SCL was a 5 flights per day route, imagine now with 10 daily flights and GOL and LAN selling Y for US$ 170. No way to be profitable with an A343 even selling C and F (not the case of GRU-SCL leg).
If you ask for sources, you can read lots of reports from LH Brazil staff, and i can send some to you very easy.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
In the case of AF, GIG beats many asiain destinations.

Agree 100% and AF proves that.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:23 pm

Quoting LH459 (Reply 23):
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
For me it is a question of poor management.

Allegations of poor management for one of the most consistently profitable airlines in the world? I'm sorry, that is very hard to accept. I think Johnnybgoode understands LH's position in South America quite well.

LH certainly is one of the best managed airlines in the world. But in regards to South America Hardy is right. AF/KLM has an even better strategy there. So in comparison to them LH looks pretty dump.

I don't understnd LH's position in South America. There is no obvious reason why they should not be able to produce as good results as AF. Nobody has a natural advantage there as IB obviously has. So why can't LH do better in South America without compromising somewhere else? AF/KLM obviously can!
 
stylo777
Posts: 2013
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:35 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 25):
I don't understnd LH's position in South America. There is no obvious reason why they should not be able to produce as good results as AF. Nobody has a natural advantage there as IB obviously has. So why can't LH do better in South America without compromising somewhere else? AF/KLM obviously can!

as I said before they are focussing on North America (especially USA) and Asia. They can't or hardly can focus on more. You have also take the size of the long-haul fleet into account. There aren't any B747's or A343/6's left to make additional routes to South America, because they are utilized so much.
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:18 pm

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 26):
as I said before they are focussing on North America (especially USA) and Asia. They can't or hardly can focus on more. You have also take the size of the long-haul fleet into account. There aren't any B747's or A343/6's left to make additional routes to South America, because they are utilized so much.

LH focusses on North America and Asia and neglects South America.

AF/KLM focusses on North America, Asia, Africa AND South America. Thats the difference.

LH is short on widebodies, AF/KLM obviously not as much. So one airline has to neglect South America the other one not!
 
AF086
Posts: 509
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:45 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:58 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 25):
But in regards to South America Hardy is right. AF/KLM has an even better strategy there. So in comparison to them LH looks pretty dump.

I don't understnd LH's position in South America. There is no obvious reason why they should not be able to produce as good results as AF. Nobody has a natural advantage there as IB obviously has. So why can't LH do better in South America without compromising somewhere else? AF/KLM obviously can!

LH is indeed a very well managed airline and I agree with you all when you say that their South American policy is just rubbish.
I include BA on this list as they has also very few South American destinations: EZE, GIG and GRU being GRU the only nonstop destination.

While these two large airlines neglect South America, AF/KLM make large profits in the region.
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
Lp0815
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:34 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
LH will never manage to compete with LH if it decides to route GIG flight via GRU

???
Time waits for nobody
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting Lp0815 (Reply 29):
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
LH will never manage to compete with LH if it decides to route GIG flight via GRU

???

Hardi tried to say LH will never manage to compete with AF ....

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 30):
Hardi tried to say LH will never manage to compete with AF ....

Correct, Lipe. And I repeat, LH can ONLY enter GIG market if it introduces FRA-GIG nonstop. As of October/07 AF will offer 13 weekly NONSTOP flights CDG-GIG. And I will repeat, GIG is an extremely profitable market for AF. If LH want to go back to GIG it needs to do it properly and well managed.

LH in South America, and Brazil in particular, is certainly not well managed. As mentioned above, perhaps it is because of the central FRA-based management of LH which do not regard South America as priority - also taking into account that partner airline TAP provide about 50 weekly flights Europe-Brazil and fill the gap - however, my point is that LH mini-hub in GRU is NOT working, and its flights operations in Brazil are far from being effecive. LH concept for Brazil, routing all flights via GRU and providing secondary services to markets such as SCL, EZE and GIG, meant that AF has captured the market in the wake of LH retraction.

Rgs,
 
AF086
Posts: 509
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:45 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 31):
Lipe. And I repeat, LH can ONLY enter GIG market if it introduces FRA-GIG nonstop. As of October/07 AF will offer 13 weekly NONSTOP flights CDG-GIG. And I will repeat, GIG is an extremely profitable market for AF. If LH want to go back to GIG it needs to do it properly and well managed.

Agreed Hardi.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 31):
LH in South America, and Brazil in particular, is certainly not well managed. As mentioned above, perhaps it is because of the central FRA-based management of LH which do not regard South America as priority - also taking into account that partner airline TAP provide about 50 weekly flights Europe-Brazil and fill the gap - however, my point is that LH mini-hub in GRU is NOT working, and its flights operations in Brazil are far from being effecive. LH concept for Brazil, routing all flights via GRU and providing secondary services to markets such as SCL, EZE and GIG, meant that AF has captured the market in the wake of LH retraction.

If LH is counting on TP for connections they're making a mistake since TP can only provide intraeuropean connections and some african as well (LAD, MPM and JNB but pax from Brazil are better of with TAAG and South African, SID, OXB, DKR and TMS).
TAP cannot provide connections to Asia and LH flies nonstop only to CCS and GRU in the continent so unless the passenger has a *A mile program there's no advantage in flying with LH.

And if RG's flight to FRA is really suspended things will get even better for AF/KL specially at GIG. RG's demise would make even more room for LH's return to Rio's market. But, for the looks of it, they'll keep neglecting GIG and South America while AF/KL make big bucks in the region.

AF/KL in the other hand provide nonstop service to GIG/GRU/EZE/SCL/CCS/BOG and multi-stop service to LIM/UIO/GYE and can provide connections to all over the world with Air France/KLM and Skyteam.

Not hard to say that AF/KL's formula in the continent is the most suited by far.
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:59 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 31):
LH in South America, and Brazil in particular, is certainly not well managed. As mentioned above, perhaps it is because of the central FRA-based management of LH which do not regard South America as priority

I am really curious how you can consider yourself in a position to judge on that? how can you say that LH operations in Latin America are poorly managed? especially concerning Brazil you are wrong. Sao Paulo is home to local branch offices of more than 1,000 German companies, business traffic between Germany and Sao Paulo is significant. what is wrong with GRU being the prime destination?
what do you mean by central FRA-based management? that's where the head office is located, granted, and that's where obviously the shots are called. but LH maintains a very tight sales presence in all corners of the world, including Latin American countries. if you think they don't have local sales offices and local intelligence, you are way off.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 31):
my point is that LH mini-hub in GRU is NOT working, and its flights operations in Brazil are far from being effecive.



again, I am really astonished as to how you can judge upon this? correct, LH does not serve any Brazilian destinations apart from GRU, but those services have long been doing very well. how exactly are LH's 'operations in Brazil far from being effective', using your words? what makes you say the mini-hub is not working? what is not to work?
the passenger and fare mixes to GRU are very likely doing quite well, EZE has never performed that well for LH in the past, so why not route it through GRU if this could improve the bottom line. apart from SCL now being served via GRU iso EZE, and by LX, there is no significant change there.
passengers from ZRH can now transit at GRU and reach SCL and EZE easily, the same will likely soon apply to passengers arriving from MUC. this increases the destinations served by LH/LX from those other hubs.

feel free to provide a more detailed analysis of your claims. until LH decides to serve SCL and EZE nonstop (again), I think it is fair to assume that for them it is working alright.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:06 am

Up to now, seems that LH474 MUC-YUL will be not part of LH network for the next IATA winter. Effective October 28 they flight is not uploaded on the system which means LH will be able to use the A340-300 to run overnight flights on both ways from Munich to São Paulo.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:36 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 33):
Sao Paulo is home to local branch offices of more than 1,000 German companies, business traffic between Germany and Sao Paulo is significant. what is wrong with GRU being the prime destination?

I think you have not understood my point. I agree that GRU is the prime destination in the region, and even more regarding Germnay-Brazil business. LH is right to give attention to GRU with 3 daily flights, however, LH is missing the point by relegating GIG, EZE as stop-over destinations. In fact, GRU would deserve LH 3 daily dedicated flights alone. LH/LX legs GRU-EZE and GRU-SCL are very expensive to run and these markets are extremelly competitive whereby LH cannot extract any profits.

LH needs to keep the focus on GRU, however, it cannot abandon key markets such as EZE and GIG, which certainly deserve daily nonstop services.

Quoting AF086 (Reply 32):
multi-stop service to LIM/UIO/GYE

KLM will start LIM nonstop flights this month, with 6 weekly B772 nonstop flights to be upgraded to daily, while UIO-GYE will also get dedicated flights soon, avoiding the stop in the Dutch Caribbean. This shows yet again, that AF/KL had the right receipe for the region. AF/KL can now compete in equal terms with IB.

There are also rumours that KLM is considering REC as a nonstop destinations - currently KL subsidiary Martinair already operates two weekly AMS-FOR. In addition, KL/AF will also soon announce a Central American destinations, SJO and PTY are on the table.

Rgs,
 
DALCE
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 31):
LH in South America, and Brazil in particular, is certainly not well managed

LH is one of the best managed airlines in the world, and LH is not a very strong contender in Latin America.
The main reason is lack of widebodies,of which LH has lots on order, for both expansion and replacing.

So if you don't have unlimited aircraft available, then you look at the places where you can make money
LH choose for example to start operating FRA-CCU 3/7, MUC-DEL 7/7, but also MUC-DTW 7/7 ( S '07 AFAIK )

When the delivery of the new ordered 333's 346's 380's and later on the 747-8i you will see LH expand on the latin continent aswell.

rgds,DALCE
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
LHStarAlliance
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:21 pm

Great to see JJ back in FRA , I hope they join *A .

Will they fly the 777 to FRA ?
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
LHUSA
Posts: 529
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:15 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting DALCE (Reply 36):
but also MUC-DTW 7/7

LH is actually starting DTW-FRA double-daily both with A333s on March 25th. Also, on March 31 LH begins DEN-MUC.
 
DALCE
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:28 am

I must have mixed up those!
A lot of changes coming up again in the scedule!
Will MUC-DEN be served by 343 or 346?
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
LHUSA
Posts: 529
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:15 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting DALCE (Reply 39):
Will MUC-DEN be served by 343 or 346?

A343 - I believe it's 8F 36C 197Y.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 37):
Will they fly the 777 to FRA ?

LHStarAlliance, it could be. TAM will for sure fly the 77W to the destinations they should have some space for improvement. IMO CDG could receive all the 4 frames because with this Tam can manage to release 2 A332 from the 6 frames they use nowadays. But everything depends on they join or not an alliance, if they join, the 77W will be deployed to the hub of such alliance for sure. My opinion as today for October 2008:

77W - GRU-CDG (2)
77W - GIG-CDG (2)
A332 - GRU-FRA (2)
A332 - GRU-LHR (2)
A332 - GRU-MXP (2)
A332 - GRU-MIA (2)
A332 - GRU-JFK (2)
A332 - GIG-MIA (2)
A332 - GIG-LHR or FRA or JFK (2)

Tam will take delivery of 2 A332 later this year, 2 more next year as well as 4 77W to replace 3 M11.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
flyyul
Posts: 4405
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:56 am

LIPEGIG,

MUCYUL is always seasonal...
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 35):
however, it cannot abandon key markets such as EZE and GIG, which certainly deserve daily nonstop services.

man, i don't want to be disrespectful, but you do not have any inside knowledge of LH/LX but yet you claim LH must serve both destinations on a nonstop basis. after this post, i will rest my case, but for the last time i happily chime in again with me thoughts.

AF/KL apparently have a different strategy than LH/LX when it comes to South America. As such, AF/KL apparently are able to offer viable nonstop services while those constantly have proven to be unsuccessful for LH. now please explain to me, how you can claim that e.g. EZE and GIG both deserve nonstop service by LH? they used to serve EZE on a nonstop not too long ago, and tagged GIG onto its daily FRA-GRU in the winter 03/04 period. those services don't exist anymore. this i take as a a hint that either LH does not consider nonstop services in these markets to be money-makers or it has higher priorities are elsewhere. i believe it's both. there surely must be a question as to why AF/KL can serve Latin America more successfully than BA and LH/LX which have near identical global networks and thus should, theoretically, be able to achieve similar success in the same traffic regions. the answer to this is one of the few mysteries which can never be found on websites such as a.net.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
JJMNGR
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:06 pm

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:28 am

Felipe,

Beyond these 02 new A332 scheduled for NOV, the company is looking for additional A332 for the next months...it is not being easy but there is a light at the end of a tunnel and it is not the train coming towards....as soon as I have more information I can post I will do it.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa

Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:00 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 42):
MUCYUL is always seasonal...

Thanks FlyYUL, i really don't know about this !

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 44):
Beyond these 02 new A332 scheduled for NOV, the company is looking for additional A332 for the next months...it is not being easy but there is a light at the end of a tunnel and it is not the train coming towards....as soon as I have more information I can post I will do it.

Thanks for the info Richard. So i will try to imagine, despite turning MXP an overnight flight both ways, what JJ can begin with more birds... if FRA become a reality, for sure will be FRA. But we can also see finally a possible MIA flight from Rio. The huge investment on the lounge for sure is not for a long-haul single flight. Lets wait, thanks again!

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos