jimyvr
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CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:31 am

A China Airlines with nearly 400 on board landed in Taipei on 24FEB07 performed touch and go with wheels touching the ground first.

China Airlines admit such incident occurred on rare basis.

According to the passengers, the main landing gear touched the runway during landing but suddenly the pilot pulled the nose up sharply for go-around.

Co-pilot, with flying experience of 72hours, was operating the plane during landing.

The co-pilot in the PA says due to traffic control issues, the plane had to go around. The plane was about 20-30ft altitude when the nose of the plane sharply turned upward position, wheels bumped to the land, but the rear fuselage didn't touch the runway.

Picture from Taiwan's Appledaily

1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
SEAdomer787
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:35 am

is there something i'm missing here that warrants the severity of that graphic? how much force did the 747 hit the ground with? or is it just media hype at it again?
 
Norcal773
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
but the rear fuselage didn't touch the runway.

The fuselage is not supposed to touch the ground at any one point. This story doesn't make a lot of sense.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
skibum9
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
According to the passengers, the main landing gear touched the runway during landing but suddenly the pilot pulled the nose up sharply for go-around.

I am not getting the point here. Planes do go-arounds all the time and is something the is very routine. So what is the big deal. Would you rather have the plane continue the landing and crash into whatever may be on the runway?

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Co-pilot, with flying experience of 72hours, was operating the plane during landing.

There is no way that this is correct. A co-pilot of a 744 with only 72 hours total flying time. He wouldn't even have completed his instrument rating at this point. This has to be a misprint! Maybe is should be 72 hours on type.
Tailwinds!!!
 
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LTU932
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 2):
The fuselage is not supposed to touch the ground at any one point. This story doesn't make a lot of sense.

Perhaps it's a translation error.
 
2H4
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:43 am




Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
performed touch and go with wheels touching the ground first.

I don't know about the rest of you, but this is without question my favorite method of performing a touch-and-go. I much prefer the wheels to touch the ground first.  yes 


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
KELPkid
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):
I don't know about the rest of you, but this is without question my favorite method of performing a touch-and-go. I much prefer the wheels to touch the ground first.


2H4

And I much prefer that the mains touch down before the nosegear...the airframe likes that sooo much more  Wink Nothing in what's been said so far seems to indicate it happened the other way...

BTW I doubt the first officer's total time was 72 hours. That is hopefully time in type...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
MDorBust
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
A China Airlines with nearly 400 on board landed in Taipei on 24FEB07 performed touch and go with wheels touching the ground first.

China Airlines admit such incident occurred on rare basis.

Future incidents can be prevented by not lowering the landing gear.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
2H4
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:00 am




Quoting MDorBust (Reply 7):
Future incidents can be prevented by not lowering the landing gear.

Oh, just give them some time....  Sad




Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
And I much prefer that the mains touch down before the nosegear

You'd never make it as an RAAF pilot....


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Matthew Vaughan




 Wink

2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
OPNLguy
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Gro

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:13 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
but the rear fuselage didn't touch the runway.

I should hope not--that's called a "tail strike"....

Gotta love the "sparks" from the tires in the illustration....  Yeah sure

[Edited 2007-03-01 02:14:42]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
2H4
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:21 am




Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 9):
Gotta love the "sparks" from the tires in the illustration....

Seems to be standard symbology for Chinese accident reports:



...straight from an accident report on the crash of CI 676 in 1998....


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
OPNLguy
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 10):

Seems to be standard symbology for Chinese accident reports:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 10):


...straight from an accident report on the crash of CI 676 in 1998....

It's been said that a picture is worth 1000 words, but with the exchange rate and all, I guess a picture is worth a couple of million characters....  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Lexy
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
I don't know about the rest of you, but this is without question my favorite method of performing a touch-and-go. I much prefer the wheels to touch the ground first.

I was thinking the same thing. LOL!!
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
sanjet
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:39 am

I hope the NTSB was notified. Another case of media hype.
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kaitak
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:31 pm

I think this would be investigated by the Taiwan CAA; the NTSB would only become involved if there were an actual accident. I think this is just bad terminology; they wrote "touch and go" when they actually meant go-around.

When I first looked at the title, I wondered if they had tried a touch and go with the gear up, but this situation - touching down during a go around does not seem to be a major problem; it can happen and it's not necessarily wrong when it does, as long as they reconfigure the aircraft (spoilers cancelled, flaps to 20) before takeoff.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:58 pm

that's a great graphic, haha
They're not handing trophies out today
 
cloudyapple
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:11 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
touch and go with wheels touching the ground first.

What do you think the "touch" part of "touch and go" is supposed to mean? Sounds like a normal go-around.

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
According to the passengers, the main landing gear touched the runway during landing

Are the wheels inside the plane? Or are the passengers dangling outside to be able to see the wheels? Trust nothing other than the FDR.

Quoting SEAdomer787 (Reply 1):
is there something i'm missing here that warrants the severity of that graphic? how much force did the 747 hit the ground with? or is it just media hype at it again?

Apple Daily is like News of the World or worse. It's a unique breed of broadsheet tabloids we have in the Chinese world. Half fact and half fiction all the time. I don't trust any damn thing they report.

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 3):
72 hours total flying time

72 hr on type?

Non-news.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
jimyvr
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 16):
Sounds like a normal go-around.

But don't you have certain altitude to do that? You don't have wheels bumped into the ground and take off right away.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
cloudyapple
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:33 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 17):
But don't you have certain altitude to do that?

Entirely legitimate to come into contact with the concrete before TOGA thrust is applied, anything to avoid a crash.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
andrewtang
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:52 pm

A normal go-around WILL not involve any gears touching contact with the ground. Unless it's crew training whereby a touch and go was conducted. Then it's different.

Either way they should have decided whether to land or go around by decision height. If traffic has not cleared by then they should have gone-around before that. Not waiting till really finals at 20-30ft before they execute the Go around. It may also be ATC's fault there but then the pilots have their discretion whether it is deemed safe to continue the app or not.

Few years ago, a China airlines A300 did the same thing in Japan but crashed.
 
KELPkid
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:53 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 8):
You'd never make it as an RAAF pilot....

You're right  Wink I think between landing nosewheel first and having to rappel facing the ground ("Aussie Style"), I'd wash out of their officer training within a week...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
jimyvr
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Gro

Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 16):
72 hr on type?

72hours on 747-400. Total flying time was 5322hrs

This time is a foreign pilot who was flying for China Airlines recently.

China Airlines claims the degree of angle was greater than average, led to the decision of go-around within seconds.

Of course, it is pretty much the media hype.

[Edited 2007-03-01 17:37:06]
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
airtran717
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting Sanjet (Reply 13):
I hope the NTSB was notified. Another case of media hype.

This happened in Taipei. The NTSB won't be notified unless it happened on US soil. Thus the NATIONAL Transportation Safety Board... Not ITSB for INTERNATIONAL... Not trying to be a smartass here. But you should have thought about that comment first.

717
 
airtran717
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:45 am

And for the record... someone needs to clarify the terminology. If the wheels touch the ground and they immediately use TOGA for the go around... is it not a touch and go AND a go around? LOL I suspect that even though the passengers were not hanging outside the airplane, even the dimmest of people can feel it in the seat of their pants when an aircraft's wheels touch the ground.

717
 
azjubilee
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:09 am

It sounds like what happened, was not a go around, but a balked landing. Depending on when the action to reject the landing took place has a lot to do with it. Due to the spool up time on a jet engine and the momentum from the approach to landing, it is not uncommon for the wheels to touch on a balked landing.

More media hype over something that isn't worthy of media hype. Slow news day in Taipei I guess. Don't they have government officials slapping each other to cover instead?



AZJ
 
Baron52ta
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 7):
Future incidents can be prevented by not lowering the landing gear.

In my experience the gear horn would sream long before you hit gear up, I know I tried it, not a 744 though just a PA23 Apache with a broken lever.
 
trex8
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting Andrewtang (Reply 19):
Few years ago, a China airlines A300 did the same thing in Japan but crashed

the Nagoya accident occurred because they had unknowingly selected TOGA and didn't know it and the pilots were essentially fighting the flight controls and stalled

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 24):
Slow news day in Taipei I guess. Don't they have government officials slapping each other to cover instead?

all the bigshots have been indicted or found guilty already Smile
 
boeingfixer
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:01 am

Directly from the B744 FCTM (Flight Crew Training Manual) concerning Go-Arounds:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If touchdown occurs after a go-around is initiated, the go-around
continues. Observe that the autothrottles apply go-around thrust or manually apply
go-around thrust as the airplane rotates to the go-around attitude.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Touchdown after initiation of a Go-Around is not grounds for panic and is considered normal on the 744 if the Go-Around is initiated below 50'. It's a non-event! The press is blowing it out of proportion... as usual.

Cheers,

John
Cheers, John YYC
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 22):
This happened in Taipei. The NTSB won't be notified unless it happened on US soil. Thus the NATIONAL Transportation Safety Board... Not ITSB for INTERNATIONAL... Not trying to be a smartass here. But you should have thought about that comment first.

717

The NTSB often also lends their help in investigating other accidents that occur outside of the US for multiple reasons

a)US airline involved
b)US Built Aircraft Involved
c) The flight was set to terminate or originated in the US
d)or simply at the request of the country where the incident happened.
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
Jerald01
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:37 am

I've made hundreds of "touch-and-go" landings. Sometimes two or three on any one approach (before I finally got the darn plane on the ground!)...  goodvibes 
"There may be old pilots, and there may be bold pilots, but there are darn few green cows"
 
bphendri
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:20 am

Wouldn't this not realy be a "Touch and Go" but simply a "Go around where the mains touched down after TOGA was initiated"

For the terminology of "Touch and go" to be correctly applied, wouldn't that have had to be the original intention of the pilot?

Pretty poor article all around.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
performed touch and go with wheels touching the ground first.

Yeah, and...what's so new about this concept, because this is what is suppose to happen.

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
with flying experience of 72hours

I sure hope they mean 72hrs in type or I'm running for a job!
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:36 am

Without knowing the weather, my guess is that he was doing an instrument approach, perhaps CATII or III, hit minimums, no runway in sight and went around. But as some of you said, arresting the descent of a 747 is not going to happen fast. He goes missed, wheels hit, lifts off again and continues with the missed. My CRM teacher was a former chief pilot for United and he said it's not a big deal and it happens.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
PhilSquares
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting Andrewtang (Reply 19):
A normal go-around WILL not involve any gears touching contact with the ground. Unless it's crew training whereby a touch and go was conducted. Then it's different

I suggest you review your statement. A go around from a CATII/CATIII approach will certainly result in main wheel contact with the runway.

Your comments about

Quoting Andrewtang (Reply 19):
Either way they should have decided whether to land or go around by decision height. If traffic has not cleared by then they should have gone-around before that. Not waiting till really finals at 20-30ft before they execute the Go around. It may also be ATC's fault there but then the pilots have their discretion whether it is deemed safe to continue the app or not.

show you don't understand how things work in the "real world" . Sometimes having an aircraft go around at decision height because it doesn't have landing clearance makes the whole situation worse. It's not uncommon to have a late landing clearance given.

Quoting Andrewtang (Reply 19):
Few years ago, a China airlines A300 did the same thing in Japan but crashed.


Completely different situation. Not even remotely similar to this!!!!
Fly fast, live slow
 
727forever
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 3):
There is no way that this is correct. A co-pilot of a 744 with only 72 hours total flying time. He wouldn't even have completed his instrument rating at this point. This has to be a misprint! Maybe is should be 72 hours on type.

No probable, but certainly possible. I saw above someone else replied that it was in fact 72 hours in type. However, this could become reallity in the near future. See ICAOs new Multi Crew Pilots License (MPL) for additional information.

727forever
727forever
 
747hogg
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:39 am

GROUND ..... PEOPLE, NOT RUNWAY, BUT THE EARTH! SHORT FIELD LANDING GOING BAD.
 
KGAI
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:38 am

Quoting 747hogg (Reply 35):
GROUND ..... PEOPLE, NOT RUNWAY, BUT THE EARTH! SHORT FIELD LANDING GOING BAD.

For so much shouting you're certainly quite wrong. The main landing gears touched the RUNWAY, which is perfectly normal for go-arounds in big jets.
And it wasn't a short field landing either.
 
celestar
Posts: 495
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:22 pm

I can't help but to offer my little three cents thoughts.
I read through the original report and believe there are some questions that the newspaper report did not make it clear.

1. Aircraft came from LAX non-stop full pax load. Weather conditon was good for landing. The co-pilot was not a Taiwanese or Chinese. While doing a visual landing, at the last moment, the pilot feels the landing angle (Angle of attack?) was too step and a tail strike might be inevitable. He took over the control, pull up the plane, apply full speed and did a go around. Pax reported hearing impact noise on landing wheels. I suppose one can call this a last minute MIS-APPROACH?

2. This is indeed confusing, if the aircraft already landing at a high angle of attack, and hence with noise high position, applying full speed, the aricraft would have more chance of encountering tail strike, but the report did not indicate that to be the case.

Regardless, I think the pilot intervention should have happened much earlier. At such a low height, any excessive pull-up is dangerous to say the least. I like CHINA AIRLINE, I like their service but I am still afraid of their flight safety record. I recall while flying CX from HK to TPE couple of years ago, the pilot decide to do a turn-around having declare a mis-approach, with flying attitude that is so high that I did not even see the ground. To me, that is prudent pilot!
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:19 pm

Quoting Andrewtang (Reply 19):
A normal go-around WILL not involve any gears touching contact with the ground.

On a heavy jet, and most definitely on the 747, it will involve the gear touching the runway if the G/A is commenced from lower than about 150ft. I have had this happen several times in my time on the 747.

Quoting Andrewtang (Reply 19):
Few years ago, a China airlines A300 did the same thing in Japan but crashed.

That was a completely different scenario.
 
TWA1011
Posts: 8
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:42 pm

I especially love the picture insert on the graphic of the people in their seats screaming.
 
Lexy
Posts: 1240
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RE: CI 744 Touch And Go With Wheel Touches The Ground

Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:39 pm

Just for the record, I love CI. They bring me my computer parts here everyday but Tuesdays. Now, carry on. LOL!!!!

The people screaming insert is almost comical. I had to laugh at it.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA

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