airmailer
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Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:05 am

I just saw this on WSJ.
I looked but didn't see anything other than the UPS Post (I assume that this wasn't contained in there).
Sorry if it ended up bein a double-post.


DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
March 1, 2007 11:59 a.m.

FRANKFURT (Dow Jones)--European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. NV (5730.FR), or EADS, Thursday told Dow Jones Newswires it has halted work on the freight version of its A380 jet.
 
airtran737
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:07 am

I don't think any of us are surprised.



filler
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PEET7G
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:14 am

Just wish playing the Lottery would be that easy...  duck 


Anyway, a good decision IMO.
Peet7G
 
redflyer
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:47 am

There is a new development schedule for the freight version A380F, he said, adding that the company sees sales potential for 400 models of the A380 freight aircraft in the next 20 years.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...s/EU-FIN-Germany-France-Airbus.php


I've been reading about the 400 models of the freight version for the last 10 years. I wonder which 20 year period they are talking about? It's sounding more and more like a self-perpetuating mantra.
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SEPilot
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
There is a new development schedule for the freight version A380F, he said, adding that the company sees sales potential for 400 models of the A380 freight aircraft in the next 20 years.

They'll be a lot more visible to mark closed runways throughout the world than just those yellow X's-that's the only way I can see 400 of them in use.
 duck 
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travelin man
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
the company sees sales potential for 400 models of the A380 freight aircraft in the next 20 years.

??? They are stopping the development of an aircraft for which they see a market of 400 aircraft in the next 20 years? Even though their biggest potential customers have either cancelled or "postponed" their orders by 10 years?

Do they really believe what they say?
 
NYC777
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:55 am

Comment from UPS, not good:

United Parcel Service Inc., Airbus's only remaining customer
for the plane, said the Airbus move took it by surprise.
''We've not made any decision,'' Mark Giuffre, a spokesman for
UPS's airline operations, said in an interview. UPS never asked for
a delay in the A380 freighter program, he said.
''Airbus has had problems in terms of delivering the aircraft
in the A380 program,'' he said. ''It has not been UPS asking for
delays in the program.'
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Sangas
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
There is a new development schedule for the freight version A380F, he said, adding that the company sees sales potential for 400 models of the A380 freight aircraft in the next 20 years.

Even David Sutton's (of FX) very sanguine projection back in 2005 was for a much smaller worldwide fleet in 20 years and that estimate was inclusive of conversions as well:

Quote:
Sutton says he expects that there will be "a fleet of 200 A380 freighters in the marketplace over the next 20 years".

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...380f-fleet-expansion-strategy.html
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redflyer
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:08 am

Here's an update from Bloomberg:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...s/EU-FIN-Germany-France-Airbus.php

Airbus Chief Executive Louis Gallois said yesterday in an interview that he expected United Parcel Service Inc., Airbus's only remaining customer for the freighter, to postpone its order for 10 planes by a decade and said then that Airbus would soon make a decision on whether to push back plans for the plane.

Asked then whether Airbus expected to keep the planes in its order book as a deferral, or book them as cancellations, he said he didn't know yet, as it would depend on UPS and what happened to pre-delivery payments.


By stopping development of the F model, it sounds like Airbus unilaterally made the decision for UPS.
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PEET7G
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 6):
United Parcel Service Inc., Airbus's only remaining customer
for the plane, said the Airbus move took it by surprise.
''We've not made any decision,'' Mark Giuffre, a spokesman for
UPS's airline operations, said in an interview. UPS never asked for
a delay in the A380 freighter program, he said.
''Airbus has had problems in terms of delivering the aircraft
in the A380 program,'' he said. ''It has not been UPS asking for
delays in the program.'

Could this be true? Could it be that Airbus took decision without reconciling with UPS? Could it be that the earlier comments from the Airbus pipeline, that UPS will delay it's order for 10 years was a plain decision from the side of Airbus? I find it hard to believe that this decision took UPS with surprise and that they had no knowledge of this coming. If so... then the behaviour of Airbus is simply outrageous, and deserves every bad thing coming to them! I just can't believe it was so... this would be to much to get away with... No, this can not be true... NO ONE can get away with such business behaviour...

I still believe there is some sort of agreement behind the scenes, and that it was a decision made together with UPS, and as already discussed... a win-win situation for both.
Peet7G
 
douwd20
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:27 am

This means the 747-8F has no competition for many years to come.
 
Poitin
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting Douwd20 (Reply 10):
This means the 747-8F has no competition for many years to come.

Yes it does -- the 744 BCF.


Side issue:

Given that the city of Hamburg has invested many hundreds of millions of Euros in the Airbus plant in Hamburg, not to mention the expansion of the run way at XFW so that the A380F can be tested on it, has there been any reaction from the German politicians regarding this apparent waste of money?
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osiris30
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:45 am

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 9):
I still believe there is some sort of agreement behind the scenes, and that it was a decision made together with UPS, and as already discussed... a win-win situation for both.

If there is, that quote is certainly extremely unflattering for Airbus. I'm not sure what to make of this mess right now.
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threepoint
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:53 am

Reading the entire article provided above, it appears that UPS announced a postponement in their order last week. Did they? I don't know, but Airbus' position is that they are concentrating on the pax version in light of this UPS-induced delay.
It sounds like both sides are claiming the decision was made by the other party. Whatever, let's not vilify any side until it becomes more clear.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 2):
Just wish playing the Lottery would be that easy...

I was thinking the same thing.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 6):



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
There is a new development schedule for the freight version A380F, he said, adding that the company sees sales potential for 400 models of the A380 freight aircraft in the next 20 years.



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 6):
United Parcel Service Inc., Airbus's only remaining customer
for the plane, said the Airbus move took it by surprise.
''We've not made any decision,'' Mark Giuffre, a spokesman for
UPS's airline operations, said in an interview. UPS never asked for
a delay in the A380 freighter program, he said.
''Airbus has had problems in terms of delivering the aircraft
in the A380 program,'' he said. ''It has not been UPS asking for
delays in the program.'

A bit over optimistic I would say, at least at this point.
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douwd20
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 11):
Yes it does -- the 744 BCF

That's not much in terms of real competition.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 9):
Could it be that the earlier comments from the Airbus pipeline, that UPS will delay it's order for 10 years was a plain decision from the side of Airbus?

That's how I've interpreted the situation. Airbus wanted the delay, not UPS.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 9):
I find it hard to believe that this decision took UPS with surprise and that they had no knowledge of this coming.

UPS was informed, and they have been given the option to cancel based on the new delivery dates. With this announcement, we now know that there are in fact no delivery dates at all. A 5X cancellation is now a formality.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
I've been reading about the 400 models of the freight version for the last 10 years. I wonder which 20 year period they are talking about? It's sounding more and more like a self-perpetuating mantra.

Well powerplant and structural improvements that would allow the A388F to lift more then 150t the same distance as the 747-8F with better efficiency would probably help sales a good bit.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 11):


Quoting Douwd20,reply=10:

This means the 747-8F has no competition for many years to come.

Yes it does -- the 744 BCF.

The 744BCF does not have the same flexibility and capability as the dedicated freighter model has. While I have no doubt 744BCF kit sales will increase, especially with 744P operators with cargo arms using 744Fs, the 748F should still see strong sales for many, many years to come.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 11):
Side issue: Given that the city of Hamburg has invested many hundreds of millions of Euros in the Airbus plant in Hamburg, not to mention the expansion of the run way at XFW so that the A380F can be tested on it, has there been any reaction from the German politicians regarding this apparent waste of money?

Perhaps getting a third A320 line (at the expense of TLS?) and the entire A320RS production quota has been deemed "sufficient compensation"?
 
katekebo
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 9):
Could this be true? Could it be that Airbus took decision without reconciling with UPS? Could it be that the earlier comments from the Airbus pipeline, that UPS will delay it's order for 10 years was a plain decision from the side of Airbus? I find it hard to believe that this decision took UPS with surprise and that they had no knowledge of this coming. If so... then the behaviour of Airbus is simply outrageous, and deserves every bad thing coming to them! I just can't believe it was so... this would be to much to get away with... No, this can not be true... NO ONE can get away with such business behaviour...

The reality is that Airbus situation is worse than what Airbus cheerleaders want to accept. Airbus is in cash-crunch. They don't have enough free cash to develop the A380F, the A350 and the A320E, all at the same time, so they have to delay something in order to concentrate their limited financial resources on the project with the highest NPV and strategic importance. If they dilute the limited amount of money over too many projects and consequently delay the A350, they will concede the entire widebody market to Boeing - their current products (A330 / A340) are simply not competitive enough against Boeing's offering (B787 / B777).

On top of the limited cash, Airbus is also facing human resources limitation - with 10,000 jobs going away there is no way their R&D and Engineering force won't suffer cuts, too. Airbus won't have enough engineers to develop A380F, A350 and A320E simultaneously. Giving up on the A380F won't harm them too much (espacially with only 10 orders left), but not concentrating 100% of their available resources on the A350 would be suicidal. Delaying (cancelling) A380F is no longer a matter of making a business choice, it's a matter of survival.
 
777STL
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting Douwd20 (Reply 15):
That's not much in terms of real competition.

The cargo sector is typically much more receptive to used aircraft than the pax industry. E.G., FX and 5X and the MD11, FX and the 757, etc. Add to the fact that there's going to be a glut of used 744s on the market in the next 10 years or so, and I think the 744 BCF will do fine.
PHX based
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 18):
Delaying (cancelling) A380F is no longer a matter of making a business choice, it's a matter of survival.

Sadly, you're absolutely right. Airbus needs to use their available resources in much higher priority projects.
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TeamAmerica
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 18):
Airbus is in cash-crunch. They don't have enough free cash to develop the A380F, the A350 and the A320E, all at the same time, so they have to delay something in order to concentrate their limited financial resources on the project with the highest NPV and strategic importance.

No, I don't see that EADS/Airbus is in that much of a bind. They have no customers for the A380F, hence there's no point in building the thing. Simple as that.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 18):
The reality is that Airbus situation is worse than what Airbus cheerleaders want to accept. Airbus is in cash-crunch. They don't have enough free cash to develop the A380F, the A350 and the A320E, all at the same time, so they have to delay something in order to concentrate their limited financial resources on the project with the highest NPV and strategic importance.

Yet even if Airbus was "cash flush", stopping work on the A388F due to such low sales would not be a bad idea. Many "Boeing Boosters" felt that Boeing halting work on the 748I when sales were non-existant and just going with the 748F was a good idea, so I don't think we should castigate "Airbus Aficionados" for offering the same, even if it is true the financial position of Airbus is worse then Boeing's.

Quote:
If they dilute the limited amount of money over too many projects and consequently delay the A350, they will concede the entire widebody market to Boeing - their current products (A330 / A340) are simply not competitive enough against Boeing's offering (B787 / B777).

I'm beginning to wonder if the design itself is the problem with the A350XWB and why it continues to be revised again and again and pushed back farther and farther.

And no matter how good the 777 and 787 are vis-a-vis the A340 and A330, Airbus will still sell those planes and do so at a profit, even if it means undercutting Boeing on price.

Quote:
On top of the limited cash, Airbus is also facing human resources limitation - with 10,000 jobs going away there is no way their R&D and Engineering force won't suffer cuts, too. Airbus won't have enough engineers to develop A380F, A350 and A320E simultaneously.

While I expect cuts in HR and direct management as facilities are closed or sold, nothing I have read has stated that Airbus intends to close any of their engineering centers. So I don't see where Airbus would be making cuts in their engineering ranks, unless they are people who are only qualified to work on the A388F program. And even then, I am sure Airbus or EADS can find something for them to do within the company.
 
redflyer
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
I've been reading about the 400 models of the freight version for the last 10 years. I wonder which 20 year period they are talking about? It's sounding more and more like a self-perpetuating mantra.

Well powerplant and structural improvements that would allow the A388F to lift more then 150t the same distance as the 747-8F with better efficiency would probably help sales a good bit.

Like I said, I've been hearing the "market demand for 400 F models over the next 20 years" for the last 10 years. And that was long before any discussion of new engines, structural improvements, etc.

However, since you've brought it up, how much in improvements/efficiency gains could Airbus recognize with new engines (are we talking GenX here?) and theoretical structural improvements? If there was a market demand for 400 F models, would it not be worth it for Airbus to go down that path? I would think so. Boeing has shelled out ~$4 billion (the number I've seen thrown about) for development of the 8F/8i and between the two versions they only predicted sales of around 400. I would think if Airbus REALLY believed a market for 400 A380Fs existed, then they would surely spend the ~$1 billion to develop their freighter.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 21):
They have no customers for the A380F, hence there's no point in building the thing. Simple as that.

Well, Boeing didn't have any customers either when they launched the 748F, but they built it anyway. The more appropriate point would be to say that Airbus had customers for the A380F, but then lost them all.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 5):
??? They are stopping the development of an aircraft for which they see a market of 400 aircraft in the next 20 years? Even though their biggest potential customers have either cancelled or "postponed" their orders by 10 years?

Do they really believe what they say?

It is amazing the kind if spin Airbus tries to put on this stuff. No small wonder they have a credibility problem.

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 18):
The reality is that Airbus situation is worse than what Airbus cheerleaders want to accept.

Right on.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
I'm beginning to wonder if the design itself is the problem with the A350XWB and why it continues to be revised again and again and pushed back farther and farther.

I think it is more of the case where they are cannot match the performance they are seeking in term of the "30% less fuel burn and operating costs" vs the 777 they are shooting for. It's either that, or the 787 is far better than we know.
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NYC777
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 20):
Quoting Katekebo (Reply 18):
Delaying (cancelling) A380F is no longer a matter of making a business choice, it's a matter of survival.

Sadly, you're absolutely right. Airbus needs to use their available resources in much higher priority projects.

Funny, if Airbus has taken the 787 very very seriously in 2003 when the 787 was launched, they would not be in this situation today vis a vis the A350 vs 787.

Instead they let loose with a barage of insults at the 787 and Boeing all the while Boeing was racking up sales scores against the various interations of the A350.

I suspect they tried for as long as possible to deride it publically and delay customer decisions with multiple inferior versions of the A350 becasue they couldn't develop an appropriate response due to the lack or resources to devote to a proper 787 competitor.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 23):
Like I said, I've been hearing the "market demand for 400 F models over the next 20 years" for the last 10 years. And that was long before any discussion of new engines, structural improvements, etc.

Well 10 years ago the A3XXF was going up against the 744F (and maybe the 744ERF) and compared much more favorably to that model then it does to the 748F, so perhaps Airbus' belief appeared more...justified...a decade ago then it appears now.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 24):
I think it is more of the case where they are cannot match the performance they are seeking in term of the "30% less fuel burn and operating costs" vs the 777 they are shooting for. It's either that, or the 787 is far better than we know.

Well Airbus did have at least five versions of the original A350, of which it was conceived could possibly be stretched to meet the 777-200ER in terms of capacity and perhaps range.

But it may in fact be that at least airlines think the 787 is better then we know, and as such Airbus has been unable to successfully convince enough of them otherwise, so they keep going back and trying to make it more and more like the 787 to generate interest in it.
 
NYC777
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
But it may in fact be that at least airlines think the 787 is better then we know, and as such Airbus has been unable to successfully convince enough of them otherwise, so they keep going back and trying to make it more and more like the 787 to generate interest in it.

Hence the "Me-Too" 787 produced by Airbus.

If they do cointinue with the A350 don't be surprised if they go to a spun composite barrel vs teh fuselage panel approach as well as the all electric power distribution and the bleedless engines of the 787. Hence pushing out EIS to 2015 and beyond.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 24):
I think it is more of the case where they are cannot match the performance they are seeking in term of the "30% less fuel burn and operating costs" vs the 777 they are shooting for. It's either that, or the 787 is far better than we know.

I think they totally underestimated the 787 and have been attempting to match it with half-baked hurry-up updates of the A330 and they keep getting their hats handed to them by the customers. According to the latest rumors on another thread they have finally decided to go with full CFRP barrels; maybe they'll get it right this time.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
dank
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
Well 10 years ago the A3XXF was going up against the 744F (and maybe the 744ERF) and compared much more favorably to that model then it does to the 748F, so perhaps Airbus' belief appeared more...justified...a decade ago then it appears now.

 checkmark  couple this with the fact that there is no way that anyone could have possibly anticipated the boondoggle that the delays in production would become. Had there been no delays, we wouldn't have been talking about these freighter cancellations.

cheers.
 
NYC777
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
Well 10 years ago the A3XXF was going up against the 744F (and maybe the 744ERF) and compared much more favorably to that model then it does to the 748F, so perhaps Airbus' belief appeared more...justified...a decade ago then it appears now.

Fine but 10 years ao the 744F hand teh nose door and I find it hard to believe that Airbus wasn't told that the freight carriers wanted a nose door on the A380F.

This has been cited as one of the many reasons that the sales of the 748F has taken off vs the A380F. If they had designed a nose door into the A380F I think Airbus wold have ahd a few more sales of that airplane and they wouldn't be "cancelling" the project.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 23):
Boeing didn't have any customers either when they launched the 748F, but they built it anyway.

 no They may not have had signatures, but Boeing had Cargolux and Nippon Cargo lined up as customers when they made the launch announcement.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
dank
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 30):
Fine but 10 years ao the 744F hand teh nose door and I find it hard to believe that Airbus wasn't told that the freight carriers wanted a nose door on the A380F.

I think that the nose door issue is a wee bit overblown here. For some cargo carriers, it is a big deal, but for many, it is just the "given all other things are equal, this is one thing the 747 has over the 380"

cheers.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 28):
I think they totally underestimated the 787 and have been attempting to match it with half-baked hurry-up updates of the A330 and they keep getting their hats handed to them by the customers. According to the latest rumors on another thread they have finally decided to go with full CFRP barrels; maybe they'll get it right this time.

The only way Airbus will be able to do this is to copy Boeing. I do not understand that Airbus cannot seem to understand that this (barrels, all electric, etc) is what customers want. I've really got to hand it to the sales team at Boeing for this. I think they did such a good job at selling the entire concept that unless Airbus copies it (787 concept) and significantly improves on it, no version of the A-350 will sell nearly as well as the 787. The only way this will not happen is if the 787 fails to live up to the promises made.
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Stitch
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 30):
Fine but 10 years ao the 744F hand teh nose door and I find it hard to believe that Airbus wasn't told that the freight carriers wanted a nose door on the A380F.

Many 747F operators do not use the nose door, so I don't believe it is a "deal-maker/deal-breaker" for many carriers.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 30):
This has been cited as one of the many reasons that the sales of the 748F has taken off vs the A380F. If they had designed a nose door into the A380F I think Airbus wold have ahd a few more sales of that airplane and they wouldn't be "cancelling" the project.

Yet that would have required pushing the cockpit up onto the second deck (instead of the hybrid position between them) and I am not sure how well Airbus could have sculpted the forward section (which already looks awkward to my aeronautic-untrained eyes) to allow such a placement.
 
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 5):
??? They are stopping the development of an aircraft for which they see a market of 400 aircraft in the next 20 years? Even though their biggest potential customers have either cancelled or "postponed" their orders by 10 years?

Do they really believe what they say?

Wow, the spin just boggles the mind, doesn't it? How can they be expected to be taken seriously with regard to the operating and economic specs they claim on the 350 if they have the audacity to characterise stopping work on an entire A/C variant in this nebulous and deceitful fashion?

So I guess a 10 year "delay" by UPS IS actually seen as a cancellation by Airbus, even if they are not calling it that."

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
There is a new development schedule for the freight version A380F, he said, adding that the company sees sales potential for 400 models of the A380 freight aircraft in the next 20 years.

That's like calling an airplane crash "an arrival time adjustment."
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Many 747F operators do not use the nose door, so I don't believe it is a "deal-maker/deal-breaker" for many carriers.

I very rarely disagree with you, but having a wife who works for one of the biggest European Cargo airlines, I think the nose door is vitally important for a few freight carriers. LH Cargo is known for it's ability to carry large, unusually shaped, bulkly and heavy cargo. The people there miss the 747's nose door. Perhaps they'll see it again.
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pygmalion
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:34 am

UPS never said they wanted a 10 year slide... Airbus said UPS wanted a 10 year slide. Not the same thing at all.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 35):
So I guess a 10 year "delay" by UPS IS actually seen as a cancellation by Airbus, even if they are not calling it that

I question whether there ever was any 10-year deferral at all. That statement was made by Airbus, not UPS. All we know with any certainty is that UPS has the right to cancel if not satisfied with the "new delivery dates" expected from Airbus.
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dank
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 33):
The only way Airbus will be able to do this is to copy Boeing. I do not understand that Airbus cannot seem to understand that this (barrels, all electric, etc) is what customers want.

I don't buy this. The airlines could care less whether the systems are electric, a full barrel, etc. as long as the plane is cheaper to buy and fly (the biggest benefit to boeing for the barrels is manufacturing cost). At present, this has favored the 787, but there are plenty of confounding factors to the whole 350 saga (i.e. much later entry into service, not many 1 on 1 sales of the latest 350 vs. 787, etc., not that this isn't airbus' fault, but...). Airbus missed the boat because they simply thought that a refreshed 330 would do enough to steal some of the sales from the 787 until they were ready to develop a new plane.

cheers.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 36):
I very rarely disagree with you, but having a wife who works for one of the biggest European Cargo airlines, I think the nose door is vitally important for a few freight carriers. LH Cargo is known for it's ability to carry large, unusually shaped, bulkly and heavy cargo. The people there miss the 747's nose door. Perhaps they'll see it again.

I admit I myself am only going from my own conversations with cargo pilots and staff. I fully understand it is not "rare", but it also does not seem to be "common" based on my discussions with those people. Some work for airline arms (CX and NH's cargo arms) while others work for dedicated heavy cargo operators (Atlas, Cargolux).

Of course, the true answer is somewhere in the middle. Some carriers may very well find it a requirement, but only in certain percentages. So if 10% of your annual cargo is odd-sized pallets which need nose-loading, you may only wish to have 10-15% of your fleet having that capability.

Which is why I believe that the 744BCF and 748F will find homes with both dedicated cargo carriers and airline cargo arms. CX may be happy with the majority of their fleet having no nose-door, so the 744BCF could make up a large part of their fleet. Yet they may also need at least a certain percentage with a nose-door to handle special cargo, so they would add a few nose-door configured 748Fs, as well.
 
thebry
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Dank (Reply 32):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 30):Fine but 10 years ao the 744F hand teh nose door and I find it hard to believe that Airbus wasn't told that the freight carriers wanted a nose door on the A380F.
I think that the nose door issue is a wee bit overblown here. For some cargo carriers, it is a big deal, but for many, it is just the "given all other things are equal, this is one thing the 747 has over the 380"

This is moot. The majority of 747F flying are converted from passenger jets (and many more will be converted as the 747-8i comes online). None of these conversions have nose doors.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting Thebry (Reply 41):
The majority of 747F flying are converted from passenger jets...

36 744BCF conversion kits have been sold (and most have not been installed) whereas 166 744 and 744ERFs have been built. So either IAI has been real busy or your figures are incorrect.  Wink


A question to the forum - is the nose door is an option or standard equipment on new-build 747 freighters?
 
dank
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting Thebry (Reply 41):
This is moot. The majority of 747F flying are converted from passenger jets (and many more will be converted as the 747-8i comes online). None of these conversions have nose doors.

Can I ask why you quoted my post on this? I was saying that the nose-door requirement was overblown.

cheers.
 
dank
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
36 744BCF conversion kits have been sold (and most have not been installed) whereas 166 744 and 744ERFs have been built. So either IAI has been real busy or your figures are incorrect.  

But I think you would have to add in the 747 classics, too (your numbers do not refute the original comment that "most 747F" are conversions. The question will be how many of the 744s get converted to freighters in the future, since they must be second hand frames. We'll know more as pax carriers start to retire more 744s.

cheers.
 
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
is the nose door is an option or standard equipment on new-build 747 freighters?

It's standard. Oddly enough, the side loading door is optional.
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RIXrat
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:31 am

Several months ago I went back to Seattle to visit a friend of mine who is a top-ranking Boeing design engineer. He told me that the original 7E7, viewed by his company's intelligence from Airbus, was a fluke and destined for the trash pile just like the Sonic Cruiser.

He said it took Airbus more than three years to realize that this aircraft was not just a boosted-up version of the B767, and by that time it was too late to emulate it, to copy it, or to make different design changes to make the A350 superior.

He also said that by the time the B747i and or F versions came out, that's when Airbus got the message that Boeing was not just kidding around, exactly about the time that the great Airbus debacle started with delays and more delays.

I guess that's lucky for Boeing.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 35):
That's like calling an airplane crash "an arrival time adjustment."

Great line!
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 46):
He told me that the original 7E7, viewed by his company's intelligence from Airbus, was a fluke and destined for the trash pile just like the Sonic Cruiser.

I'd guess Boeing's "intelligence" came from reading A.Net. wink 
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Sangas
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 46):
He also said that by the time the B747i and or F versions came out, that's when Airbus got the message that Boeing was not just kidding around, exactly about the time that the great Airbus debacle started with delays and more delays.

The first major A380 program delay was announced in June 2005, the 748 was formally launched in November 2005.
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RE: Eads Halts Work On Freight Version Of A380

Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:13 am

Quoting Sangas (Reply 48):
The first major A380 program delay was announced in June 2005, the 748 was formally launched in November 2005.

Although formally launched in November, 2005, the 747-8 was in the news since early 2004.
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