md11sdf
Posts: 77
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UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:53 am

Hello A-Neters,
Here in Louisville (KSDF) there is obvious interest in the UPS fleet. With the 727's soon to be retired and there still being a need to serve smaller markets, I was wondering.... With a ton of UPS's money on hand from the deferred/cancelled orders, could Airbus offer UPS the A320F? The Union for the Pilots (IPA) would most likely insist on a conventional control column, instead of the side-stick. The A320 Freighter IS already something that is being developed.

It's a fair bet that EADS-Airbus does NOT want to refund their long held deposit money. How many million Dollars was it?
UPS has enough A300's and the A330-200, while a great aircraft will not happen. The 27 ship 767 order they recently announced killed off any chance it had. I have this fantasy of an A340-600F with cargo doors fore and aft of the wing...

The botton line is that SOMETHING will need to be done to resolve this situation. This being the home to UPS's massive WORLDPORT, I can say that there (for the most part) is a HUGE sigh of relief that the A380F is dead on arrival.

Terry
LOUISVILLE, where your camera may as well be a stinger misslie to the Airport Police.
 
Lumberton
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:30 am

Isn't UPS looking for 757s? Wouldn't that be a better 727 replacement than an A320?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
manni
Posts: 4049
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
It's a fair bet that EADS-Airbus does NOT want to refund their long held deposit money. How many million Dollars was it?

We can only speculate what will happen with the deposits. As far as the size of the deposit is concerned, US$160 million would be a good guess.

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
I can say that there (for the most part) is a HUGE sigh of relief that the A380F is dead on arrival.

That's a funny thing to say. And why exactely is that? Did UPS' home airport already started investing in A380 airport modifications?
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ken4556
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:32 am

UPS may not need anything smaller then the 757. UPS flies late in the evening with either a 757 or the A300 into our Airport here in Albany, GA, loads, and then departs. It arrives back in the early morning, unloads, and then heads out.

UPS has probably found it cheaper to operate bigger plans with a couple stops instead of having dedicated smaller planes to the smaller cities. Less plans and less crews probably equal a higher profit for UPS.
 
eraugrad02
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:41 am

I'd assume if the wanted/needed something smaller they'd order the 737-700F. It's available now. a frieghter a320 is not. but i dought they'd get it. even thought it goes good in between the atr42/72 and 757-200F.
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
Riddle274
Posts: 66
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:16 pm

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know exactly how many of each aircraft type are currently serving in the UPS fleet? I couldn't find any data online for the past few years. Additionally, does UPS utilize any feeders (they must) and if so, who?
 
boeingfever777
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting Riddle274 (Reply 5):
does anyone know exactly how many of each aircraft type are currently serving in the UPS fleet?

A300 = 53
747 = 10
757 = 75
767 = 32
MD-11 = 33

On orders:

767 = 22
744F = 10

What is the point to this post? It is very clear that 5X will most likely get there deposits back... after talks with A in Toulouse about they can walk away any time if A delays the program. They DID! 10yrs!

5X will now look at 748F/777F.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
manni
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):
It is very clear that 5X will most likely get there deposits back... after talks with A in Toulouse about they can walk away any time if A delays the program.

What has been agreed between Airbus and UPS is not been made public. You raised one possibility.

Airbus and UPS might have agreed that UPS can cancel the contract, without paying a penalty, if Airbus further delays the aircraft. Under normal circumstances (no delay) an additional penalty, on top of losing the deposits might have been agreed to pay to cancel the contract. That could be another possibility.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):
On orders:

767 = 22
744F = 10

That's 27 763F's.
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fxramper
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:01 pm

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
could Airbus offer UPS the A320F

Sure they could. 5X isn't interested in short-haul a/c though.

They are in currently negotiations with Boeing to replace their A380 order.

Look for an official announcement in 4-6 weeks.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:13 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
Airbus and UPS might have agreed that UPS can cancel the contract, without paying a penalty, if Airbus further delays the aircraft. Under normal circumstances (no delay) an additional penalty, on top of losing the deposits might have been agreed to pay to cancel the contract. That could be another possibility.

I have read this many times, but can't understand what is is your trying to say.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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PM
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
The Union for the Pilots (IPA) would most likely insist on a conventional control column, instead of the side-stick.

They can "insist" all they like but I doubt if they'd get it!

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
Isn't UPS looking for 757s? Wouldn't that be a better 727 replacement than an A320?

Not for the retiring and already retired 727-100s Though who's to say they'd want the same capacity in new planes?
 
boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
That's 27 763F's.

 Big grin

Long day at the office... thanks Manni!
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
md11sdf
Posts: 77
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:20 pm

I have been trolling around the Pilots web-blogs for the past several years and many have called the A380 a PIG and were not looking foreward to having it here. I wonder if the monster K-Loaders needed for the upper deck have even been DESIGNED? Runway 17R/35L is being extended, but I'm not sure if the taxiways are being widened The Airport Authority states that UPS needed the extra length even without the A380. This will allow the 747's to takeoff with a heavier fuel load.

As to feeders, you can go to FlightAware (arrival airport LOUISVILLE, KY) and see them after 11:00PM.
There are a mix of Shorts 330's/360's and ATR42's. I can't remember the names of the operators. No feeders are used on the "day-side", which is mostly a 2nd Day Air operation. There are many more flights at night.

I do not work for UPS, although I was on the ramps at the hub 1988-90. I drive tractor-trailers for a company who's warehouse is less than 1/2 mile from the end of runway 35L/ 17R. If you look up inflight photos of SDF, you can see
that the UPS hub complex is located on the south side of the airport, between the runways. You will also see the totally bizarre location of our new ATC tower. I have never understood it... They have a better view of the Ford plant (where the Explorers are built) than of the airport!! Anyway, the bottom line of my original post was about the UPS deposit money.
Maybe by summertime, we will know what will happen.... Any Brown-Tail guys out there?

Terry
LOUISVILLE, where your camera may as well be a stinger misslie to the Airport Police.
 
baron95
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
The botton line is that SOMETHING will need to be done to resolve this situation.

Could you please explain what you are talking about? I read yout OP and other posts and I still don't get what "situation" needs to be fixed. What situation exists that SOMETHING needs to be done about?

UPS got the same lift capacity on the 27 767s as they previously had on order with the A380F. Ranges are in the same ballpark. So what is it that you are concerned about?
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
manni
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
I have read this many times, but can't understand what is is your trying to say.

When signing up for aircraft Airbus requires a deposit from the customer. This deposit is the first payment of the total sum that needs to be payed. The rest of the sum will be payed according the agreement between both parties, a cancellation fee and compensation for delays will also be included in the agreement. There's no indication whatsoever that the deposit equals the cancellation fee.

What I'm saying is that one of the possible scenarion could be that the deposit might be lossed but that due to the various delays of the A380, UPS can now cancel the order without paying a cancellation fee (if that's what has been agreed). While under normal circumstances they would not only loose their deposits but might have been obliged to also pay a cancellation fee.

Having said that, I'd be very surprised if UPS would let a deposit of US$160 million go. Perhaps they've negotiated a more favorable contract or someone else is prepared to chip in, by offering an additional discount on a new order...
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SDF21
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:43 pm

It is very unlikely that UPS will order any Airbus aircraft any time soon. Since we mainly move packages the company mainly only uses structured ulds. The A332F would only have a marginal increase (1 position) of space over 763F, and with the much larger wing span the A332F could not be parked "on wing" at SDF. It is much more likely that UPS will order 748F or 744 converted freighters.
 
hb88
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting Md11sdf (Reply 12):
I have been trolling around the Pilots web-blogs for the past several years and many have called the A380 a PIG and were not looking foreward to having it here.

Given that none of them would have flown the 380F yet (unless any Fedex or UPS pilots had flown a pax version in TLS), why would they call the A380F a PIG with negligible knowledge of the aircraft and the fact that it hadn't been built in the freight variant yet?

Other than the traditional antipathy toward the 380 what was this opinion based on?
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1993
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 14):
What I'm saying is that one of the possible scenarion could be that the deposit might be lossed but that due to the various delays of the A380, UPS can now cancel the order without paying a cancellation fee (if that's what has been agreed). While under normal circumstances they would not only loose their deposits but might have been obliged to also pay a cancellation fee.

According to Arbus in October, all of the orders with the exception of some new options exercises were in the cancellation zone, and up to max damage caps. That plus reports on how lax the original contracts were in terms of cancellation clauses makes it pretty obvious that UPS and Fedex are only going to be out the money that they were investing trying to get their hubs "A380 ready"
 
Go3Team
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):

A300 = 53
747 = 10
757 = 75
767 = 32
MD-11 = 33

No more DC8s?  Sad
Yay Pudding!
 
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kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
Isn't UPS looking for 757s? Wouldn't that be a better 727 replacement than an A320?

No, it is FedEx looking for B-757-200CFs.

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
I have this fantasy of an A340-600F with cargo doors fore and aft of the wing...

Why would anyone, including UPS be interested in an A-340-600F? There is no development in any version of the A-340 into an "F" version, and I doubt there ever will be. It would compete directly with Airbus's A-330-200F, and Boeing already has the B-777-200LRF in the works, too.

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
It's a fair bet that EADS-Airbus does NOT want to refund their long held deposit money.

I think you are right.

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 4):
I'd assume if the wanted/needed something smaller they'd order the 737-700F. It's available now. a frieghter a320 is not.

I doubt that UPS would order a B-737-700F/-800F. They can pick up plenty of used B-737-300/-400 and have them converted into CFs.

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):
On orders:

767 = 22
744F = 10

That's 27 763F's.

Correct, and the B-747-400F order is for 8 airplanes, not 10.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):
5X will now look at 748F/777F

Yes, But, I doubt they will look closely at the B-777-200LRF, without canceling some of the B-767-300ERFs. But, I think the B-747-800F is a safe bet.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):
A300 = 53
747 = 10
757 = 75
767 = 32
MD-11 = 33

What happened to the DC-8-71F/-73F and the B-727-100CFs? Are they all gone from the current UPS fleet already?

Quoting Manni (Reply 14):
What I'm saying is that one of the possible scenarion could be that the deposit might be lossed but that due to the various delays of the A380, UPS can now cancel the order without paying a cancellation fee (if that's what has been agreed). While under normal circumstances they would not only loose their deposits but might have been obliged to also pay a cancellation fee.

Having said that, I'd be very surprised if UPS would let a deposit of US$160 million go. Perhaps they've negotiated a more favorable contract or someone else is prepared to chip in, by offering an additional discount on a new order...

You can bet that if Airbus refuses to return the A-380-800F deposits to UPS, this will end up in the US Federal Court in Louisville. If Airbus looses that suit, they not only have to repay the deposits, but a court ordered penilty, and the legal costs for UPS.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 16):
Given that none of them would have flown the 380F yet (unless any Fedex or UPS pilots had flown a pax version in TLS), why would they call the A380F a PIG with negligible knowledge of the aircraft and the fact that it hadn't been built in the freight variant yet?

Since UPS WAS an A-380 customer, I'll bet they were receiving many more updates on flight testing than we on a.net were. They were probibly also getting updates from the FAA and JAA.
 
Lumberton
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
You can bet that if Airbus refuses to return the A-380-800F deposits to UPS, this will end up in the US Federal Court in Louisville. If Airbus looses that suit, they not only have to repay the deposits, but a court ordered penilty, and the legal costs for UPS.

Not to mention "poisioning the well" for a very long time.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
No, it is FedEx looking for B-757-200CFs.

I was aware of FEDEX, but I thought I had read that UPS was looking as well. Oh well, the problem with aging....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20):
I was aware of FEDEX, but I thought I had read that UPS was looking as well. Oh well, the problem with aging....

I am in that same age group, my friend. Now, what were we talking about?  Confused
 
SEPilot
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:33 am

My take on the whole situation: 5X ordered a bunch of A306F's and then decided they didn't want them. Airbus sold them on the A380F's and agreed to transfer the deposits, basically with no refund clause. Airbus stubs its toes bigtime with the A380, and 5X is unhappy and wants to bail. Airbus says if you do you lose your money. This standoff continues until a few weeks ago when Airbus and 5X reach an agreement that the order will stay on the books but be deferred 10 years. Airbus realizes the futility of building a plane for which they have no customers and, desperately needing the resources for other projects decides to suspend development on the freighter. UPS cries Bingo! due to the clause in the previous agreement about any further delay in the A380F and gets their deposits back. Airbus undoubtedly realized when they suspended the A380F they would lose 5X's money which they were desperately trying to hold onto but the cost of doing so was encroaching on resolving the A380 problems and getting the A350 program off the ground, and therefore they threw in the towel.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
threepoint
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 22):
My take on the whole situation:

Thanks SEPilot, for summing this up for a latecomer to this story. It appears the UPS has either ordered some new freighters to replace the lift offered by the 380 (those 27 763's) or is currently in negotiations for a new order (747F, 777F, etc).
Am I getting this straight?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
justloveplanes
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 22):
My take on the whole situation: 5X ordered a bunch of A306F's and then decided they didn't want them. Airbus sold them on the A380F's and agreed to transfer the deposits, basically with no refund clause. Airbus stubs its toes bigtime with the A380, and 5X is unhappy and wants to bail. Airbus says if you do you lose your money. This standoff continues until a few weeks ago when Airbus and 5X reach an agreement that the order will stay on the books but be deferred 10 years. Airbus realizes the futility of building a plane for which they have no customers and, desperately needing the resources for other projects decides to suspend development on the freighter. UPS cries Bingo! due to the clause in the previous agreement about any further delay in the A380F and gets their deposits back. Airbus undoubtedly realized when they suspended the A380F they would lose 5X's money which they were desperately trying to hold onto but the cost of doing so was encroaching on resolving the A380 problems and getting the A350 program off the ground, and therefore they threw in the towel

From the UPS press release, I think they should be taken at their word. They really sounded like they would wait until 2012 to get the planes, but Airbus has put the 380F at the bottom of the stack. There is no prediction to when they will get the planes. It looks like A and UPS were trying to work things out and the situation got the better of the deal.

UPS will get their deposits back without a fight and A will be gentlemen about the whole thing. Can't imagine A insisting on a A300 order now or anything else having had to retrace on TWO programs with UPS. My two cents.
 
2H4
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:19 am




Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
The Union for the Pilots (IPA) would most likely insist on a conventional control column, instead of the side-stick.

Why?


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
The Union for the Pilots (IPA) would most likely insist on a conventional control column, instead of the side-stick.

What is that about? Do the pilots in that union have a strong point of view or contract point in this regard? Is it not an easy thing to adjust to? I learned on the control column, and therefore I prefer it, but I suppose I could learn the side stick, Thousands of pilots do it.... Can anyone extroplate on this issue for me? Is there controversy over which is easier or safer to manipulate? (and sorry for the thread drift).
I come in peace
 
2H4
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:49 am




Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 26):
Is there controversy over which is easier or safer to manipulate?

Better yet, is there evidence over which is easier or safer to manipulate? I've yet to see any...


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
hb88
Posts: 760
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:25 am

RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:51 am

....

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
Quoting HB88 (Reply 16):
"Given that none of them would have flown the 380F yet (unless any Fedex or UPS pilots had flown a pax version in TLS), why would they call the A380F a PIG with negligible knowledge of the aircraft and the fact that it hadn't been built in the freight variant yet?"

Since UPS WAS an A-380 customer, I'll bet they were receiving many more updates on flight testing than we on a.net were. They were probibly also getting updates from the FAA and JAA.

That's precisely my point. All of the flight-test results released internally within Airbus and externally with customers have certainly not shown the 380 to be a 'pig'. Quite the opposite in fact. So, the original comment doesn't make much sense.
 
Asturias
Posts: 1953
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
You can bet that if Airbus refuses to return the A-380-800F deposits to UPS, this will end up in the US Federal Court in Louisville. If Airbus looses that suit, they not only have to repay the deposits, but a court ordered penilty, and the legal costs for UPS.

Airbus has a written contract with UPS. There is no way UPS can sue. Airbus will honor any written contract with UPS, of course.

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
The Union for the Pilots (IPA) would most likely insist on a conventional control column, instead of the side-stick.

UPS had ordered the 380F and it has a sidestick. The pilots' union must have been happy with it.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
SkepticAll
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
I have this fantasy of an A340-600F with cargo doors fore and aft of the wing...

A cargo version of an A340-600F? Yes.........and a fantasy it surely will remain!
 
dc10rules
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:41 am

RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 25):
The Union for the Pilots (IPA) would most likely insist on a conventional control column, instead of the side-stick.

I think I remember reading a thread about whether or not the 787 would be offered with a choice of side stick or yoke. I seem to remember people a lot smarter than me said it wasnt possible.

Would (or better yet, could) Airbus do that?
 
CF188A
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:10 am

try and keep this short. Last time i checked there were not enough 757s circulating to fill the 727 slot for both UPS / FedEx. So without verbal diarrhea please fill me in?
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
scottieprecord
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:17 am

5X fleet according to 2007 Aviation Week Source Book:

727-100F......... 31
747-100SF....... 7
747-200F......... 4
757-200PF....... 75
767-300ERF..... 32
A300F4-600R... 53
DC-8-71F......... 20
DC-8-73F......... 26
MD-11F........... 34

-Mike
 
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kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 24):
Can't imagine A insisting on a A300 order now or anything else having had to retrace on TWO programs with UPS.

I doubt Airbus will do that. They want to close the A-300/A-310 production line in a few more months. Even though Power 8 was not the original reason for closing that line, I believe the production reduction Airbus currently needs can be helped by closing that line.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 29):
Airbus has a written contract with UPS. There is no way UPS can sue.

Airbus actually breached the A-380F contract by slipping the delivery dates of the UPS airplanes, 1, then 2, and now 10 years.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 32):
Last time i checked there were not enough 757s circulating to fill the 727 slot for both UPS / FedEx. So without verbal diarrhea please fill me in?

That is currect, unless Boeing decided to reopen the B-757 line, which I doubt they have the capacity to do now with the huge backlogs they have with the B-737, B-747, B-767, B-777 and B-787. So, a possible solution is to convert (less capable) B-737-300s & -400s to CFs. IIRC, Kitty hawk is doing that now to replace some older B-727-200CFs.
 
Philly Phlyer
Posts: 356
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 29):
Airbus has a written contract with UPS. There is no way UPS can sue. Airbus will honor any written contract with UPS, of course.

I do not follow your first two sentences since most civil lawsuits are due to some form of "breach of contract." As such, if Airbus is contractually bound to return the deposits, UPS most definitely can and would file a lawsuit if Airbus were to drag its feet in returning the deposits.

Of course, I doubt it will come to this. I would be shocked if Airbus did not refund the money. It would be contrary to everything they appear to do to keep customers and potential customers.
 
pygmalion
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:52 am

The 757 line no longer exists. The 737NG and the 737MMA took over the space. All the tooling is scrapped.
 
CF188A
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
the huge backlogs they have with the B-737, B-747, B-767

they still have 747 and 767 backlogs? I know there were a few cargo orders but arent airlines trying to get rid of their 747s now ?
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
BoomBoom
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:52 am

Canceled Airbus Deal Won't Hurt UPS Growth Plans

Quote:
UPS's plan to cancel a multibillion-dollar order for 10 new Airbus A380 freighter aircraft won't slow long-term growth plans for the global package carrier, a company spokesman said Friday.

He noted that UPS already plans to take delivery on new 747s in the next two years. UPS could add to that order, although the company has no plans to do so now. UPS will also continue to buy used MD-11 passenger aircraft and convert them to freighters.

While UPS was widely expected to cancel its A380 order, Doug McVitie, an aviation consultant at France-based Arran Aerospace Ltd., called UPS' public lack of confidence in Airbus' ability to adhere to delivery schedules "a slap in the face" for the plane maker.

"The (freighter) program is now effectively dead for a long time," he said.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...0302-712778.html?mod=moj_companies
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B777fan
Posts: 135
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting Dc10rules (Reply 31):
...a choice of side stick or yoke. I seem to remember people a lot smarter than me said it wasnt possible.

In a fly by wire aircraft, the type of input device, stick or yoke, is irrelevant as far as transmitting commands to the controls. So it is very possible to offer both, but from a development standpoint, not very economical. They would both have to be certified etc. The FBW yoke for the B777 is very elaborate with force feedback to the pilot and was not cheap to develop.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:13 am

UPS is looking to Boeing... From the Wall Street Journal Online: UPS's Canceled Order Isn't All Bad for Airbus
Two notable quotes...

Re: Cancelling the A380:
"We just have no confidence that they can deliver the freighter version of this plane by 2012," the planned delivery date, UPS spokesman Norman Black said after the shipping company terminated its order, which had a catalogue value of roughly $3 billion.

Re: What to do instead:
"UPS has already begun talks with Airbus rival Boeing Co., of Chicago, about a possible order to sustain its rapidly growing international package business. UPS declined to specify which models it is considering, and a Boeing spokesman declined to comment. People familiar with the talks said UPS is eyeing Boeing's planned 747-8 jumbo jet."

This is strong confirmation that "lack of confidence" is impacting Airbus' business. It also confirms that the A380F cancellation may be a direct benefit to Boeing, which to my knowledge is the first time we've seen that said unequivocally.

[edit - formatting]

[Edited 2007-03-04 22:15:03]
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boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
without canceling some of the B-767-300ERFs. But, I think the B-747-800F is a safe bet.

I think you mean a conversion.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
manni
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:06 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 17):
According to Arbus in October, all of the orders with the exception of some new options exercises were in the cancellation zone, and up to max damage caps.

Despite all this TG would have lost US$97 million in deposits if they had cancelled their order.

Quoting Philly Phlyer (Reply 35):
Of course, I doubt it will come to this. I would be shocked if Airbus did not refund the money.

IF that's what has been agreed between both parties I would be shocked to see Airbus refund the money.
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kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 36):
The 757 line no longer exists. The 737NG and the 737MMA took over the space. All the tooling is scrapped.

Was the B-757 tooloing scrapped already?

Quoting CF188A (Reply 37):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
the huge backlogs they have with the B-737, B-747, B-767

they still have 747 and 767 backlogs? I know there were a few cargo orders but arent airlines trying to get rid of their 747s now ?

I believe Boeing has a backlog of about 40 B-767s, 10 B-747-400s, and about 80 B-747-800s.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 41):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
without canceling some of the B-767-300ERFs. But, I think the B-747-800F is a safe bet.

I think you mean a conversion.

Yes, I did mean conversion. Thanks for correcting me.
 
SEPilot
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 29):
Airbus has a written contract with UPS. There is no way UPS can sue. Airbus will honor any written contract with UPS, of course.

A lawyer friend of mine once said that any idiot with a typewriter can start a lawsuit. Any contract can venture into unforseen territory, and that is where most (ligitimate) lawsuits originate. I'm sure neither Airbus or 5X envisioned what has happened with the A380 program, and therefore was not covered by the contract. That said, I'm sure they will come to agreement out of court, because Airbus would like to sell 5X planes in the future.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
B777ER
Posts: 431
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 8):
They are in currently negotiations with Boeing to replace their A380 order.

Look for an official announcement in 4-6 weeks



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
But, I think the B-747-800F is a safe bet.

Agreed. I imagine we will be reading about UPS's 748 order.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 22):
My take on the whole situation

Nice summation.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 43):
I believe Boeing has a backlog of about 40 B-767s

And this does not include the Air Force 767 order possiblity.
 
boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

RE: UPS And Airbus....

Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
Correct, and the B-747-400F order is for 8 airplanes, not 10.

UPS U.S.A. North America 747-400F GE 16-Aug-2005 8 Big grin oops... haha!

Thanks KC135.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
brendows
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:55 pm

RE: UPS And Airbus....

Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 43):
I believe Boeing has a backlog of about 40 B-767s

The 767 backlog has actually grown to 65 or 66 now!  bigthumbsup 

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 43):
10 B-747-400

The 744 backlog is at about 35-37 IIRC.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: UPS And Airbus....

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting Brendows (Reply 47):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 43):
I believe Boeing has a backlog of about 40 B-767s

The 767 backlog has actually grown to 65 or 66 now!

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 43):
10 B-747-400

The 744 backlog is at about 35-37 IIRC.

About 100 airplane backlog for the B-747-400 and B-767? That is better than I thought, and that does not include a possible USAF order for up to 179 B-767-200LRFs as new tankers.