ASMVPGOLD
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AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:00 am

I suppose this helps clear the way for AS to Hawaii...

"Hawaiian Airlines Partnership Ending: Effective April 30, 2007, our Mileage Plan partnership with Hawaiian Airlines will be ending. Customers will be able to redeem awards on Hawaiian Airlines until April 30, 2007, and they will be valid for travel from one year from date of issue. Tickets purchased by April 30, 2007, on Hawaiian Airlines will also be eligible for mileage credit one year."
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jimyvr
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:09 am

Only mention FFP partnership ends but didn't say about the codeshare.
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777fan
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:47 am

Could this be the precursor of AS service to the Islands?

777fan
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Mason
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:17 am

Wow, with HA announcing 21 weekly flights SEA-Hawaii, UA operating SEA-HNL on Saturdays, plus NW with 753s on the SEA-HNL flights, I wonder if there is much more room for expansion in this sector. Unless AS plans on going from PDX (which already has HA service) or ANC (which has range issues), I don't see how this would be profitable. Again, it could be argued that an additional daily 73G isn't going to hurt anybody in a sector with 700-900 seats daily. We shall see.
 
N1120A
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 1):
Only mention FFP partnership ends but didn't say about the codeshare.

If the FF membership is ending, the codeshare will almost certainly end as well.

Quoting Mason (Reply 3):
ANC (which has range issues),

ANC-HNL has no range issues with the 73W
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Mason
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:38 am

No range issues? Fair enough. What about ETOPS cert? I thought this was still unofficial. Besides, if AS wanted to operate ANC-HNL, why would they cancel their deal with HA? This doesn't add up.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting Mason (Reply 3):
Unless AS plans on going from PDX (which already has HA service) or ANC (which has range issues), I don't see how this would be profitable.

One word: loyalty. AS would pull a lot of SEA pax who fly with them elsewhere from the HA, NW and UA flights if they started service to the islands. SEA is Alaska's largest market by far, I really don't see any reason why Hawaii wouldn't work for them. If anything, it will force NW and HA to cut frequencies.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
ha763
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:13 am

Because HA does not codeshare or FFP partnership on any Hawaii-Mainland flights if the other airline has Hawaii-Mainland flights. They will codeshare/FFP partnership on interisland routes only.
 
N1120A
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:25 am

Quoting Mason (Reply 5):
What about ETOPS cert?

I believe their -800s are already ETOPS certified, the -700s maybe as well. Even if they are not yet, this makes it easier to do so.
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Lemurs
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 6):
One word: loyalty. AS would pull a lot of SEA pax who fly with them elsewhere from the HA, NW and UA flights if they started service to the islands. SEA is Alaska's largest market by far, I really don't see any reason why Hawaii wouldn't work for them. If anything, it will force NW and HA to cut frequencies.

Right...AS's customer loyalty is not to be underestimated in both ANC and SEA. They have to stay competetive, but they can pull from a pretty big pool of people who'd like to keep their money with AS. Problem there of course is that people will be looking to cash in their miles on this route.

As for range, SEA-HNL is almost exactly the same stage length as SEA-MIA, which AS operates with the 739's...though I imagine that is with a bit of a payload penalty. ANC-HNL would require something with more legs though. And of course the unresolved ETOPS issue...
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
eva777sea
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 9):
One word: loyalty. AS would pull a lot of SEA pax who fly with them elsewhere from the HA, NW and UA flights if they started service to the islands. SEA is Alaska's largest market by far, I really don't see any reason why Hawaii wouldn't work for them. If anything, it will force NW and HA to cut frequencies.

I'm pretty sure UA has a pretty loyal FF base in the SEA area too. Not sure about NW though...
 
HikesWithEyes
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
believe their -800s are already ETOPS certified

Not yet...there is training/proving going on, but no certification/approval from the FAA yet.
Also, it is a very limited number of -800s that are ETOPS equipped.
First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
 
flyboy80
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:25 pm

What does HA do right now from SEA-Hawaii? 2HNL and one OGG, or one HNL, KOA, OGG?
 
rwsea
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:54 pm

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 10):
I'm pretty sure UA has a pretty loyal FF base in the SEA area too. Not sure about NW though...

SEA is one of NW's top FF bases outside of its hubs. Same goes for UA.

Quoting Flyboy80 (Reply 12):
What does HA do right now from SEA-Hawaii? 2HNL and one OGG, or one HNL, KOA, OGG?

This summer it will be 2x daily to HNL and 1x daily to OGG. HA does not fly KOA-SEA.
 
eva777sea
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:16 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 13):
SEA is one of NW's top FF bases outside of its hubs. Same goes for UA.

That's what I thought, thanks for clarifying. If this is the case then if AS started service, it would probably not affect NW all that much.
 
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SANFan
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:27 pm

Quoting Mason (Reply 3):
...PDX (which already has HA service)...

and NW, daily...
If (when) AS starts to HNL, I will be curious to see if it's 1x or 2x daily, and if it will in fact have an effect on HA or NW frequencies.

Quoting Mason (Reply 5):
Besides, if AS wanted to operate ANC-HNL, why would they cancel their deal with HA?

Because they will also fly from SEA; I wouldn't see them flying to HNL only from ANC. Even if there is already enough capacity to the Islands from SEA and PDX, I can't imagine them not serving both of those routes from at least HNL. Who knows, if AS gets to like Hawaii, and has enough equipment, they could eventually start SJC, SMF, ONT and SAN routes as well, all cities they already serve which currently have only one carrier to HNL (in most cases, HA...) stirthepot 

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 10):
I'm pretty sure UA has a pretty loyal FF base in the SEA area too. Not sure about NW though...

I think NW is still pretty popular in the SEA area, partially due to the past history of SEA on the NW route map.

bb
 
AirlineBrat
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:39 pm

I would love to fly AS from ACV to Hawaii but AS/QX fails to time flights for us to connect to much of anything except for Mexico, PDX, SEA, ANC and the dreaded redeye to the East Coast. If you don't care about a 5 hour layover in SEA or PDX there are a few more cities you can add to the list....... Perhaps a few flights on AA or DL but that is it......
I'm leavin on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again....
 
HA767
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:05 pm

Alaska's code share discontiuation will have little effect on Hawaiian's SEA and PDX loads. Most of Hawaiian's traffic is local in these cities and have been loyal for years.

Hawaiian Flt 27/28 (2nd daily flight) will go to 7 days a week starting June 22nd and will be permanent (used to be seasonal). Add that to the daily OGG (Maui), will give SEA 3 daily departures. PDX has 2 daily departures to HNL and OGG.

As for Alaska's Hawaii service?? Etops cert still not final and aircraft 737-700/800 will have serious weight restrictions during winter months (strong headwinds) making it unprofitable. I suspect they will wait until the -900ER becomes avialiable.
ANC service has been done with the -700 (Aloha) whom only lasted about 6 months (Hawaiian Vacations) Had issues with passenger luggage being bumped because of wieght issues.

Stay tuned
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:19 pm

I've been flying SEA-HNL about every 6 weeks over the last year, usually on the NW 757's. They have been flying virturally full each flight (1-2 seats top being open) . Although I like NW, I would prefer to go on AS but price and schedule still win. NW's times are quite good on their flights.
 
RyDawg82
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:31 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 2):
Could this be the precursor of AS service to the Islands?



Quoting Ha763 (Reply 7):
Because HA does not codeshare or FFP partnership on any Hawaii-Mainland flights if the other airline has Hawaii-Mainland flights. They will codeshare/FFP partnership on interisland routes only.

AS going to HI has to be one of the oldest rumors around; however, if it is HA's policy not to codeshare with an airline who serves the same market (Mainland-Hawaii), than that adds a little more room for speculation. I could only guess that if this is indeed the reason, it should become clear very soon.

-R
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:38 pm

AS has an extensive route structure (and add the QX factor), which could feed pax from around the country to Hawai‘i.

That has been a big question, whether the HA/AS partnership would continue when AS begins flights here. I guess we now know the answer.
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QXRamperMEII
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:02 pm

There's been so many AS to Hawai'i rumors floating around lately...every little piece adds some fuel to the speculation.
There was a huge rumor started because AS was / is trying to get some of thier aircraft ETOPS certified...I'm only a lowly QX ramper...my understanding of the "Big Picture" of AS / QX is limited.

My understanding about the ETOPS certs is that it is to allow AS to fly thier Mexico routes more directly (ie over the Gulf of Mexico, and the Pacific), vice having to follow the dogleg around...I know a pilot for AS who was one of the ones chosen to do the demos for the FAA; that's where I got this info...

Another rumor with some teeth to it is an idea that AS might aquire Aloha Airlines, taking over thier routes from the mainland, and using a QX hub in Hawai'i to do the inter-island stuff. I would certainly sign up to ramp in HNL for a while, but the idea sounds pretty far out there to me...

More speculation, that if AS did in fact start service from the mainland to Hawai'i, it wouldn't be from PDX or SEA to begin with. I imagine it would be due to the saturation of these markets already. I've heard ANC-HNL considered, as well as some stranger city pairs... SJC-HNL, SMF-HNL, SNA-HNL, YVR-HNL. I think AS might be on to something with the idea of a YVR-HNL service...who else does this route?
 
ha763
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:26 pm

Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 19):
adds a little more room for speculation.

Usually, cancellaation of the FFP partnership agreements comes only after service is announced/started. I've also heard rumors of AS not being satisfied with the codeshare/FFP partnership with HA. It's not like HA was the only one AS partnered up with to Hawaii. They still have agreements with CO, NW, DL, and AA.

Quoting QXRamperMEII (Reply 21):
YVR-HNL service...who else does this route?

Air Canada, Harmony, Air Pacific (soon to be discontinued)
 
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SANFan
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting QXRamperMEII (Reply 21):
some stranger city pairs... SJC-HNL, SMF-HNL, SNA-HNL, YVR-HNL. I think AS might be on to something with the idea of a YVR-HNL service

And, as I listed earlier, SAN-HNL has also been mentioned...

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 22):
YVR-HNL -- Air Canada, Harmony, Air Pacific (soon to be discontinued)

Aloha ran it for a year or so relatively recently as well.

I would sure love to see an American carrier in the market but, if given the choice, I'd much rather see SAN to the Islands by Alaska. SAN expansion rumors by AS have been fueled by their acquisition of an additional gate at Lindbergh Field earlier this year... [stirthepot]

bb
 
N1120A
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 13):
Same goes for UA.

Their Microsoft contract may have a little something to do with that.  Wink
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Lemurs
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Their Microsoft contract may have a little something to do with that.

Microsoft has no direct contract with UA that I know of. We use AmEx travel services, so there may be a negotiated fare rate, but if it's not on the top of the list, we don't book it. I rarely fly UA inside the US because they're almost never the best choice fare-wise except into their hubs. I also hate the idea of transiting through Denver in the winter and O'Hare pretty much any day of the week, so that's no loss from my standpoint.  Smile
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
roseflyer
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 9):
Problem there of course is that people will be looking to cash in their miles on this route.

That's a big concern for other airlines, however AS already has a ton of flights to warm sunny places that are used for cashing in miles. Hawaii won't be that different than the beach resorts in Mexico.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Lemurs
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 26):
That's a big concern for other airlines, however AS already has a ton of flights to warm sunny places that are used for cashing in miles. Hawaii won't be that different than the beach resorts in Mexico.

Except for the passport requirement. That's always the thing with HI routes. All the benefits of exotic tropical vacation travel, very few of the hassles. You're right though, in that people at least have other options in their southern routes. Personally I use my vouchers and miles with them to fly to Alaska, but then I recongize I am weird.  Smile
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
cirrusdriver
Posts: 115
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Mason (Reply 3):
UA operating SEA-HNL on Saturdays

Man, where have I been? I work for UA and haven't heard this one! That is great! When does it start and what type of equipment?
 
Bicoastal
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting CirrusDriver (Reply 28):
Man, where have I been? I work for UA and haven't heard this one! That is great! When does it start and what type of equipment?

United SAN-HNL and SEA-HNL have been operating since last June....Saturdays only using 757s. It would be great to see these flights go daily but UA needs the 757s elsewhere during the week. Originally they were going to be summer only flights but they did well and went year round.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
ASMVPGOLD
Topic Author
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):


Their Microsoft contract may have a little something to do with

United use to be one of our main prefered carrier a few years ago... that is no longer the case. CO, AA, AS, NW, DL and UA are all listed and we use the one with the best price.
721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,741/2/3/4,752/3,762/3/4,772,DC9/30/50/80/90,DC10,MD11,L1011,F100,319,320,332,CRJ,ERJ,DH8/2/4
 
N174UA
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 6):
One word: loyalty. AS would pull a lot of SEA pax who fly with them elsewhere from the HA, NW and UA flights if they started service to the islands. SEA is Alaska's largest market by far, I really don't see any reason why Hawaii wouldn't work for them. If anything, it will force NW and HA to cut frequencies.

Yep. Lot of people here with an AS credit card, and as long as Menzies stays out of the media, AS will do well. If AS starts flights to HNL, OGG and KOA, it's lights out for UA, and I would expect them to move that 757 elsewhere. It's only a matter of time before AS flies to the islands, and it will be a fight between them and NW, and HA.

It's sad, because UA has long dominated the west-coast to Hawaii market with DC-10s, DC-8s, and 747s back in the day. The resurgence of HA has made them a formidable player, and winglets on 737s means AS can play, too.
 
Bicoastal
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Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting N174UA (Reply 31):
It's sad, because UA has long dominated the west-coast to Hawaii market with DC-10s, DC-8s, and 747s back in the day. The resurgence of HA has made them a formidable player, and winglets on 737s means AS can play, too.

UA is still quite strong to Hawaii from the west coast....SFO and LAX...... and will be even if they end up dropping Saturday only service from SEA and SAN...which exists mainly to serve its contract with Pleasant Hawaiian Holidays.
United has many seat miles on 767s, 777s and 757s going to, I believe, four islands.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
ORD2PHL
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:15 am

RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 32):
UA is still quite strong to Hawaii from the west coast....SFO and LAX...... and will be even if they end up dropping Saturday only service from SEA and SAN...which exists mainly to serve its contract with Pleasant Hawaiian Holidays.
United has many seat miles on 767s, 777s and 757s going to, I believe, four islands.

Sounds about right, UA serves OGG, KOA, HNL, and LIH all from the US mainland. Somebody can correct this if I'm wrong but I know they are on the following city pairs, not sure of the frequencies

SEA-HNL (Saturday only 757)
SAN- HNL(Saturday only 757)

SFO-HNL
SFO-OGG
SFO-KOA
SFO-LIH

LAX-HNL
LAX-OGG
LAX-LIH
LAX-KOA

DEN-HNL

ORD-HNL (1/daily 777)
ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD (1/daily 777)

ORD2PHL
 
HAL
Posts: 1750
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
ANC-HNL has no range issues with the 73W

Actually with a 737 both ANC-HNL and SEA-HNL are problematic. It's not just a matter of range - ETOPS rules require more fuel onboard in case there's a problem at the midpoint of the flight, so there's always a lot of fuel required. Also, the 737 flying ETOPS 180 requires the APU to be run continuously, which is another fuel cost. AS flights from MIA to SEA can land with just a few thousand pounds of fuel at destination, but going across the Pacific requires a lot more, and that cuts into payload - especially when the winter winds are blowing against you at 100+ knots for six hours. It can be done, but as Aloha proved when they tried both YVR-HNL and ANC-HNL, a 737NG just just to give up something to make it. That would be either passengers or baggage.

Quoting Flyboy80 (Reply 12):
What does HA do right now from SEA-Hawaii? 2HNL and one OGG, or one HNL, KOA, OGG?

Right now we (HA) have one daily SEA-HNL, and a second that runs three times a week. That one will go daily too on June 22nd. We also have a daily SEA-OGG.

Quoting HA767 (Reply 17):
Alaska's code share discontiuation will have little effect on Hawaiian's SEA and PDX loads. Most of Hawaiian's traffic is local in these cities and have been loyal for years.

I think that is true. It's already happened with us against Aloha's 737's in several markets, and even AWA's 757's out of PHX and LAS. In all those cases we've either held steady or increased our RPM's. I get the feeling that people (after trying our competitors once or twice) still prefer our service and widebody aircraft over the others.

Quoting QXRamperMEII (Reply 21):
Another rumor with some teeth to it is an idea that AS might aquire Aloha Airlines

That one's dead and gone. AS came in, saw AQ's financial condition an hightailed it back to Seattle. It's not going to happen without some major changes in AQ's finances.

Quoting QXRamperMEII (Reply 21):
I've heard ANC-HNL considered, as well as some stranger city pairs... SJC-HNL, SMF-HNL, SNA-HNL, YVR-HNL. I think AS might be on to something with the idea of a YVR-HNL service...who else does this route?

We (HA) already fly out of SJC and SMF (1x/day at SJC, 11x/week at SMF). Aloha's big market is SNA, and there's several Canadian carriers (and others) that go out of YVR. Their ticket prices are so low that the competition would preclude AS from trying that.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 23):
And, as I listed earlier, SAN-HNL has also been mentioned...

We do daily flights from SAN to HNL and OGG.

I like AS, and respect their business plan. Based on talking to my friends who work there however, I think that they are already reconsidering having much (or any) of a Hawaii presence, because of the lackluster performance other airlines have had with their 737's. Unless AS moves to another type of aircraft, going to HI for them might be nothing more than a FF moneypit.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
HA767
Posts: 22
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RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:55 pm

Hawaiians Service from the mainland

LAX-HNL 3 flights daily starting June 22nd

SAN-HNL daily
SAN-OGG daily starting Mar 14th

PHX-HNL daily

LAS-HNL daily 2nd flight 6 days a week

SMF-HNL daily 2nd flight 4 days a week

SFO-HNL daily

SJC-HNL daily

PDX-HNL daily
PDX-OGG daily

SEA-HNL 2 flights a day starting June 22nd
SEA-OGG daily

ANC -HNL twice a week (Hawaiian Vacations)

In addition to American Samoa, Tahiti, and Australia.

[Edited 2007-03-08 07:59:39]
 
eskimo1
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:23 pm

RE: AS Ends Partnership With Hawaiian...

Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:52 pm

I agree that service to the islands may turn out to be a ff money pit. I think that there are other destinations in the lower 48 that are more worthy of these aircraft. I think that AS should stick to what works and continue to execute their fleet plan. Before we get too big for our britches, there are some other issues we need to resolve first including luggage reliability and facilities at our sea station. Service to the islands may be a huge distraction and the costs of failure could be huge for an airline that is finally regaining its balance, both financially and pr wise.

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