legoguy
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EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:18 am

I am unaware if this has been posted already so if a thread exsists this thread may be deleted by a moderator.

The European Union on Monday banned almost the entire Pakistan International Airlines' (PIA) fleet from flying to the 27-nation bloc, and lifted restrictions on two other carriers that had previously been on the EU's “blacklist”.

http://www.dawn.com.pk/2007/03/06/top17.htm

Pakistan International Airline (PIA) will acquire aircraft on wet lease to support its operation in the 27-member European bloc which has been badly hampered after the European Union slapped a ban on all but seven Boeing 777 aircraft for the airline’s failure to meet safety standards.

http://www.dawn.com/2007/03/07/top10.htm

Regards,
Dave
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting Legoguy (Thread starter):
I am unaware if this has been posted already

Well there was a big thread on this, but it got long - and slightly "uninformative", so I'm glad you started this one up.

The second point you mention is new. Let's discuss it here, and I'm glad you chose a neutral title...

Any idea where they would be able to wet-lease planes at presumably short notice?
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
na
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:06 am

How long until the 777s will be added to the blacklist?
 
N1120A
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:09 am

This is so absolutely ridiculous. When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed? When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism? So ridiculous
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a3
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:02 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed? When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism?

Date: 17 DEC 2000
Type: Boeing 747
Operator: Pakistan International Airlines - PIA
Passenger with false passport grabbed a butter knife and a fire extinguisher during a routine travel document check during stopover at Dubai. He locked himself in the cockpit and was later overpowered by security officers.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 28 SEP 1992
Time: 14:30
Type: Airbus A.300B4-203
Operator: Pakistan International Airlines - PIA
PIA Flight 268 departed Karachi at 11:13 for a flight to Kathmandu. The en route portion of the flight was uneventful and the aircraft was cleared for a Sierra approach to Kathmandu runway 02. The crew were instructed to maintain 11500 feet and report at 16DME (16 miles from the VOR/DME beacon, which is located 0,6nm short of the runway). The Kathmandu approach is very difficult, since the airport is located in an oval-shaped valley surrounded by mountains as high as 9665 feet. Runway elevation is 4313 feet amsl. The next approach fixes for PIA268 were at 13 DME (at 10500 feet), 10 DME (at 9500 feet) and 8 DME (at 8200 feet). A few seconds after reporting 10 DME, the aircraft was descending through 8200 feet (the altitude for 8 DME!). The Airbus crashed into a steep cloud-covered hillside at approx. 7300 feet amsl., at 9,16 DME.
Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
 
N1120A
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:10 pm

Quoting A3 (Reply 4):
Date: 17 DEC 2000
Type: Boeing 747
Operator: Pakistan International Airlines - PIA
Passenger with false passport grabbed a butter knife and a fire extinguisher during a routine travel document check during stopover at Dubai. He locked himself in the cockpit and was later overpowered by security officers.

1) Pre-9/11 2) Security overpowered him.

Quoting A3 (Reply 4):
Date: 28 SEP 1992
Time: 14:30
Type: Airbus A.300B4-203
Operator: Pakistan International Airlines - PIA
PIA Flight 268 departed Karachi at 11:13 for a flight to Kathmandu. The en route portion of the flight was uneventful and the aircraft was cleared for a Sierra approach to Kathmandu runway 02. The crew were instructed to maintain 11500 feet and report at 16DME (16 miles from the VOR/DME beacon, which is located 0,6nm short of the runway). The Kathmandu approach is very difficult, since the airport is located in an oval-shaped valley surrounded by mountains as high as 9665 feet. Runway elevation is 4313 feet amsl. The next approach fixes for PIA268 were at 13 DME (at 10500 feet), 10 DME (at 9500 feet) and 8 DME (at 8200 feet). A few seconds after reporting 10 DME, the aircraft was descending through 8200 feet (the altitude for 8 DME!). The Airbus crashed into a steep cloud-covered hillside at approx. 7300 feet amsl., at 9,16 DME.

Not a long haul aircraft, but still, that was 15 years ago.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
a3
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:27 pm

Date: 17 DEC 2000

Is only six years (plus some months) away...............
Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
 
N1120A
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:29 pm

Quoting A3 (Reply 7):
Date: 17 DEC 2000

Is only six years (plus some months) away...............

Did you read how I seperated my responses?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:34 pm

Pakistan Int'l May Get Airbus Jet To Avoid EU Ban by Jimyvr

The other thread was getting too long for some to download, please continue the discussion in this thread thank you.
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
a3
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:56 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism?

Did you make any separation line pre or after 911???

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Did you read how I seperated my responses?

It makes no difference if ti was pre or after 911, an incident is an incident no matter what date it was. I am sorry to say that , but pre 911 incidents can not be whipped out just because this date is a turning point for DOMESTIC US aviation safety.
For the rest of the world security was an issue especially after the Lokerby incident.
Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
 
LTU330
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:35 pm

A3....

A British Airways 747-400 on a flight to or from Africa "pre 9-11" had a person enter the flight deck and attack the crew. The aircraft lost a lot of altitude during the struggle between crew members and the attacker. Then of course previously there was the 747 that almost landed on the hotel alongside the A4, and the 747 that fuel diverted to MAN after flying from LAX on 3 engines. Then there was the British Airtours 737 tragedy at MAN ( B.A subsidiary, and maintained by B.A ). So.....with these incidents, and plenty more, maybe British Airways should be banned from flying within the European Union ? Maybe also ban Air France ? They have had a few accidents over the years. My point is, I have worked on PIA aircraft and they are no worse than a lot of other airlines. Some of the aircraft look old and tired, but then so did aircraft I worked on from quite a few European and North American airlines.
 
a3
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:14 pm

Dear LTU330 ,
Facts:
BA fleet , routes and mileage is multiple of PIA fleet , routes and mileage .
British Airways has 70 occupancies starting 1974 .
56 of them concern the Concord (which by the way stopped flying) .
Since 10-SEP-1976 with the HS-121 Trident, never again had any total loss.
If you are satisfied comparing BA safety record with PIA S.R you are free to do so but let me come to a different conclusion then yours.

Rgds
A3
Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
 
flyboy_se
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
This is so absolutely ridiculous. When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed? When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism? So ridiculous

This has nothing to do with terrorism.And would you prefer to see a PIA crash before they can ban their aircrafts??
I think that if there are any concerns about safety, then they have right to ban whatever company they want , and whatever planetype they want.Safety comes first.
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
David L
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:51 pm

I'm still waiting to hear exactly why the ban is in place. Once we know why, we can decide how fair it is instead of just guessing. Maybe it's for good reason, maybe it's not. So far, all we've got is:

X: "The reasons for the ban are ridiculous!"
Y: "What are the reasons?"
X: "Um... I don't know."
 
a3
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 13):
I'm still waiting to hear exactly why the ban is in place. Once we know why, we can decide how fair it is instead of just guessing. Maybe it's for good reason, maybe it's not. So far, all we've got is:

X: "The reasons for the ban are ridiculous!"
Y: "What are the reasons?"
X: "Um... I don't know."

Actually this is a continuation of the below mentioned highly provoking post :

Pakistan Int'l May Get Airbus Jet To Avoid EU Ban (http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3290074/)

Still after 166 posts there was no proof whatsoever that EU banned PIA just to sell Airbus to them !!!
Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
 
David L
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting A3 (Reply 14):
Actually this is a continuation of the below mentioned highly provoking post :

Pakistan Int'l May Get Airbus Jet To Avoid EU Ban (http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3290074/)

I assume that wasn't directed at me since I took part in that.  Smile

Quoting A3 (Reply 14):
Still after 166 posts there was no proof whatsoever that EU banned PIA just to sell Airbus to them !!!

Nor any proof that the EU couldn't find a good reason but imposed the ban anyway.
 
a3
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:36 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 15):
I assume that wasn't directed at me since I took part in that. Smile

Not specific direction  Wink

Quoting David L (Reply 15):
Nor any proof that the EU couldn't find a good reason but imposed the ban anyway.

The primary topic was "Pakistan Int'l May Get Airbus Jet To Avoid EU Ban".............

The implemented accusation is that EU did that in order Airbus sells more planes!!!
Please don't forget that he who makes the allegations have to prove them.
Not the accused.
Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
 
Curious
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:58 pm

Will this be a temporary ban on the fleet until PIA carries out steps to reomove the ban? Surely PIA is not going to leave the aircraft as they are on the ground and without use?
 
a3
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting Curious (Reply 17):
Will this be a temporary ban on the fleet until PIA carries out steps to reomove the ban? Surely PIA is not going to leave the aircraft as they are on the ground and without use?

I guess that their baned aircraft will be making flights to countries that are not EU.
Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
 
Asturias
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
This is so absolutely ridiculous. When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed? When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism? So ridiculous

Safety concerns are much better before disaster happens. It doesn't matter one squat when or if *anything* has *ever* happened to a PIA airliner.

PIA is not up to EASA standards and has to remidy this, if they wish to be taken off the black-list. I can't imagine you're going to claim to be a better authority on EU safety standards than EASA and that you're going to claim to have a better picture of the safety standards at PIA..

Playing out the emotional card always sits well with Americans when they're defending the impossible. Aviation safety is not run on emotion.

saludos

Asturias
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oly720man
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:32 pm

Some routes going off line for a while.....


"According to reports, services to Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Milan and Chicago have been stopped altogether. Flights to destinations including Manchester, New York, Istanbul and Paris will continue, but with reduced frequency."

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006669210
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
sandrozrh
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
This is so absolutely ridiculous. When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed? When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism? So ridiculous

This is not about previous crashes, it's about the safety standard which PIA is in. A safety standard as in this case doesn't have anything to do with how many crashes an airline had or how recent their latest crash is, it's about in what condition their fleet is in. This is obviousely a precautionary measure by the EU and im glad they acted BEFORE an incident occurs, as usually, people tend to react after a disaster rather than before. Again, the EU judged PIA's safety standard by their failure to meet maintenance requirements, and not based on their crash record. So no, it's definately not ridiculous but rather your statement is. Oh and on a sidenote, terrorism doesnt have anything to do with this.
 
ZRH
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
This is so absolutely ridiculous. When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed?

Nothing to ad, Sandro beat me for a few minutes, he is absolutely right.
 
Curious
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:03 pm

Curious as why the EU hasnt placed IR on a ban there aircraft specially 742 are nearly 30yrs old and with the Embargo on parts?
 
David L
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting A3 (Reply 16):
The primary topic was "Pakistan Int'l May Get Airbus Jet To Avoid EU Ban".............

You're right - I was just pre-empting such remarks that appeared in the previous thread.  Smile
 
oly720man
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting Curious (Reply 23):
Curious as why the EU hasnt placed IR on a ban there aircraft specially 742 are nearly 30yrs old and with the Embargo on parts?

Possibly because there aren't any safety issues with IR aircraft.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
ZRH
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Curious (Reply 23):
Curious as why the EU hasnt placed IR on a ban there aircraft specially 742 are nearly 30yrs old and with the Embargo on parts?

Age of an aircraft is often no factor. Maintenance is important.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Curious (Reply 23):
Curious as why the EU hasnt placed IR on a ban there aircraft specially 742 are nearly 30yrs old and with the Embargo on parts?

Their MX people are absolutely wonderful - miracle workers. Massive, massive respect to IR.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
BigOrange
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting Curious (Reply 23):
and with the Embargo on parts?

There is no embargo on parts. The embargo does not apply to supplies for humanitarian or safety purposes.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
This is so absolutely ridiculous. When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed?

July 10 2006 was the last one. http://www.dawn.com/2006/07/26/nat1.htm

There have been a number of incidents involving PIA aircraft at MAN, and it's more good luck than good management that there have not been more serious accidents.
 
roseflyer
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:53 am

I for one support the EU taking measures to keep safety at the forefront. It is vitally important. It is good that the regulatory body is strict. I would guess that they had a list of requirements that they demanded of PIA. PIA does not meet the requirements, and then gets banned. It inconveniences a lot of people, but no one is hurt because of it. The EU is strong in what they prevent. They have to be stronger than the United States in banning of airlines since there are so many more international airlines flying to the EU. The United States benefits from being isolated and only certain airlines have the capabilities of flying to the United States. Of course furthermore there are airlines and countries banned from the US. I don't know the current list, but I've seen it before.

With due time I would guess that PIA will continue service as normal. But if they can't meet the safety requirements that every other airline serving the EU can, then there must be something wrong. This is more than just politics. It is about safety. I commend actions done for safety even if they may be somewhat misguided. Everything has problems, but taking action that could improve safety is a step in the right direction even if it isn't a solution.

This isn't a sudden irrational decision. Yes it extremely hurts one country, but PIA was warned before. The EU has banned airlines before. Phuket Air was banned for not meeting safety standards, but that ban was just lifted because they have started to comply with regulations. PIA can improve maintenance on its older aircraft and then they can fly to the EU. I support the EU regulations. We all can see what happens when there is inadequate transportation safety regulation. A simple look at Indonesia shows how many crashes of planes and sinking of boats has occurred because of the lack of a strong regulatory body. The EU is safer because of their regulations and their willingless to take steps like banning PIA even though there will be political fallout.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Curious
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 28):
There is no embargo on parts. The embargo does not apply to supplies for humanitarian or safety purposes.

Correct me if I am wrong but IR cannot obtain parts openly and if the issue about this not applying for humanitarian or embargo purposes they could also order Boeing or Airbus which they cant.
 
legoguy
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 1):
Well there was a big thread on this, but it got long - and slightly "uninformative", so I'm glad you started this one up.



Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 8):
The other thread was getting too long for some to download, please continue the discussion in this thread thank you.

Whopps, I did search but nothing came up.  Sad

What aircraft type could they possibly lease from the leasing company? One A310 is currently leased from the same company so would they really lease another aircraft out to PIA?
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
eyflyer88
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 20):
According to reports, services to Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Milan and Chicago have been stopped altogether. Flights to destinations including Manchester, New York, Istanbul and Paris will continue, but with reduced frequency

FRA/AMS/MXP completely stopped?? What about the passengers booked on those flights?
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OA260
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting EYFlyer88 (Reply 32):
FRA/AMS/MXP completely stopped?? What about the passengers booked on those flights?

Will be re routed or refunded as per normal procedures.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 27):
Their MX people are absolutely wonderful - miracle workers. Massive, massive respect to IR.

I second that !!!!


I still would like to know by way of a EU statement what was wrong with PK's AC for them to ban them. For one thing the public in the EU have the right to know for a start!!! I dont think the EU has banned them because they want to sell PIA more Airbus AC!!! Thats totally stupid and belongs with the 9/11 conspiracy theories!!!!

I do hope PIA get flying ALL their AC again . I always liked PIA.
 
detroitflyer
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:49 am

ive got a question that has been on my mind since this whole thing started....
since PIA has not had any recent accidents or incidents with their fleet, how does the EU know that these aircraft are unsafe or not unsafe. I mean arent they serviced in Pakistan, by pakistani mechanics???
Also, do any of yal think that the US will follow suit??
Boiler Up!!!
 
na
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:56 am

"The EU's concerns focused on maintenance problems and old aircraft, specifically its Boeing 747s and Airbus 310s."

A. Only the two 747-200s are old, the -300s and A310s are just past mid-age.
2. Quoting the maintenance problems, do you think PIA is maintaining its 777s with more care than the 747s or A310s? That would be ridiculous. They are just brandnew, thats all about them.
 
legoguy
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 34):
since PIA has not had any recent accidents or incidents with their fleet, how does the EU know that these aircraft are unsafe or not unsafe. I mean arent they serviced in Pakistan, by pakistani mechanics???

IIRC they recently had a Fokker F27 crash
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
khobar
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lea

Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 13):
So far, all we've got is:

"EU aviation sources said last month that experts had agreed that PIA should be added to the 27-nation bloc's blacklist because of its ageing fleet."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070306...fp/pakistaneuaviation_070306201515

Quoting A3 (Reply 14):
Still after 166 posts there was no proof whatsoever that EU banned PIA just to sell Airbus to them !!!

True, but not relevant to the reasons the EU stated for the ban.

Quoting David L (Reply 15):
Nor any proof that the EU couldn't find a good reason but imposed the ban anyway.

Can you prove that Elvis didn't walk on the moon?

There is no proof that the EU could find a good reason for the ban. There is, however, proof that the EU does not need a good reason to impose a ban.

"Pakistan International Airlines has disputed media reports that said the European Union planned to suspend 33 of PIA's 40 aircraft from flights to Europe because the planes failed to meet international safety standards, Gulf News reported. PIA officials said the airline recently passed an on-site inspection from the EU's Air Safety Committee. The EU body did however recommend that PIA modernise its fleet."

http://www.businessportal24.com/en/PIA_EU_136805.html

Quoting Asturias (Reply 19):
PIA is not up to EASA standards and has to remidy this

"On November 22, 2006, after a maintenance check on its Boeing 747 fleet, PIA flew a Boeing 747-300 to London Heathrow from Karachi for an inspection by the Safety Assessment of Foreign Aircraft Programme. After checking, the EASA approved PIA to use its Boeing 747 fleet in European countries."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_International_Airlines

PIAE is certified by EASA and is ICAO Category 1 - meets or exceeds ICAO standards. Thus far, I have found no reference to them losing that certification.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 21):
This is not about previous crashes, it's about the safety standard which PIA is in. A safety standard as in this case doesn't have anything to do with how many crashes an airline had or how recent their latest crash is, it's about in what condition their fleet is in. This is obviousely a precautionary measure by the EU and im glad they acted BEFORE an incident occurs, as usually, people tend to react after a disaster rather than before. Again, the EU judged PIA's safety standard by their failure to meet maintenance requirements

The SAFA criteria does not require establishing the actual condition of the aircraft.

As was posted in the previous thread, an airline can be banned for something as simple as a paperwork error.

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 25):
Possibly because there aren't any safety issues with IR aircraft.

"A generation of international isolation has undermined safety standards within Iran's civil and military aviation fleet, experts say, increasing the likelihood of major air disasters.

"The problem is likely to be one of maintenance," Chris Yates, an aviation safety expert with Jane's Transport, told the BBC News website."

One does wonder...

Quoting ZRH (Reply 26):
Age of an aircraft is often no factor. Maintenance is important.

Age of aircraft is given as a specific, though not unique, criteria for being banned.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):
I still would like to know by way of a EU statement what was wrong with PK's AC for them to ban them.

Did the EU physically inspect the aircraft affected by the ban and impose the ban based on what they found?

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 34):
since PIA has not had any recent accidents or incidents with their fleet, how does the EU know that these aircraft are unsafe or not unsafe. I mean arent they serviced in Pakistan, by pakistani mechanics???

"EU aviation sources said last month that experts had agreed that PIA should be added to the 27-nation bloc's blacklist because of its ageing fleet."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070306...fp/pakistaneuaviation_070306201515

It will be interesting to see how this ultimately turns out.
 
a3
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 37):
Quoting A3 (Reply 14):
Still after 166 posts there was no proof whatsoever that EU banned PIA just to sell Airbus to them !!!

True, but not relevant to the reasons the EU stated for the ban.

As you mention on several posts the reason is safety issues.

The reason exists.

Its a different story if you (and some others ) think that the reason is not well justified by EU.

As for the rest of your post, i have told you before: I expect to see the legal actions of PIA against EU decision.
If no action is taken then PIA is accepting what EU alleges them off.
Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
 
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Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2290
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 37):
There is no proof that the EU could find a good reason for the ban

You mean that you don't have it. Which doesn't mean that it cannot exist.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 37):
There is, however, proof that the EU does not need a good reason to impose a ban.

"Pakistan International Airlines has disputed media reports that said the European Union planned to suspend 33 of PIA's 40 aircraft from flights to Europe because the planes failed to meet international safety standards,

Please look up the definition of "proof". Someone disputing something does not prove anything other than the existence of a dispute.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 37):
As was posted in the previous thread, an airline can be banned for something as simple as a paperwork error.

Exactly. So rather than saying "There is, however, proof that the EU does not need a good reason to impose a ban", you may raise the valid point whether it is right to ban an airline for paperwork - regardless of whether that was actually the case here.

Aviation safety depends on much more than aircraft maintenance or age as I'm sure you know.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
David L
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 37):
Quoting David L (Reply 15):
Nor any proof that the EU couldn't find a good reason but imposed the ban anyway.

Can you prove that Elvis didn't walk on the moon?

I'm saying we don't know the specific reason(s). Why do I need to prove anything? You're saying you know the specific reason - prove that. I'm saying you may, or may not, be right (but I'd be surprised if you are). You're insisting you already know.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 37):
"EU aviation sources said last month that experts had agreed that PIA should be added to the 27-nation bloc's blacklist because of its ageing fleet."

And that's the sum total of the EU's case, is it? One sentence?
 
BigOrange
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting Curious (Reply 30):
Correct me if I am wrong but IR cannot obtain parts openly and if the issue about this not applying for humanitarian or embargo purposes they could also order Boeing or Airbus which they cant

From http://www.bsaexport.com/aecu/aecu-1999-11.php

The Clinton Administration has approved a license to allow Boeing, through a European intermediary, to provide aircraft parts to Iran Air. After a painstaking review, the administration agreed to grant a waiver for the export and approve the license because the parts are necessary to ensure the safety of seven Iran Air 747s. According to State Department spokesman James P Rubin, "The American government seeks to ensure safe air travel for citizens of all nations. This waiver should not be viewed in terms of political content or messaging."
 
khobar
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lea

Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting A3 (Reply 38):
As you mention on several posts the reason is safety issues.

Age of aircraft is not, in iteself, a safety issue.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 39):
You mean that you don't have it. Which doesn't mean that it cannot exist.

I said it appears the EU is banning airlines based on age of aircraft rather than actual "safety concerns".

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 39):
Please look up the definition of "proof". Someone disputing something does not prove anything other than the existence of a dispute.

"Bans and operational restrictions are only imposed based on evidence of violation of objective and transparent criteria which are published in the above mentioned regulation. These criteria focus on the results of checks carried out in European airports; the use of poorly maintained, antiquated or obsolete aircraft; the inability of the airlines to rectify shortcomings identified during inspections; and the inability of the authority responsible for overseeing an airline to perform its task properly."

The EU criteria includes "poorly maintained OR antiquated OR obsolete aircraft."

One might be tempted to try to read this as "poorly maintained antiquated or poorly maintained obsolete", but then that would mean "poorly maintained newish aircraft are okay." That would be a very strange stance for a safety agency to take.

Quoting David L (Reply 40):
I'm saying we don't know the specific reason(s). Why do I need to prove anything? You're saying you know the specific reason - prove that. I'm saying you may, or may not, be right (but I'd be surprised if you are). You're insisting you already know.

Your argument was based on trying to prove a negative - there is no proof the EU could not find a good reason. Hence my comment about trying to prove Elvis did not walk on the moon - you would be hard pressed on that. That's all.

No, I'm not insisting that I already know with certainty though I can understand how it might seem that way, and I apologize. I tried to preface my comments with "it appears to me" or words to that effect. Whether I actually wrote that each and every time or not, it was at least meant to be implied. Apparently it wasn't. And you are correct - I may not be right on this. In fact I'm hoping I'm wrong.

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 41):
The Clinton Administration has approved a license to allow Boeing, through a European intermediary, to provide aircraft parts to Iran Air. After a painstaking review, the administration agreed to grant a waiver for the export and approve the license because the parts are necessary to ensure the safety of seven Iran Air 747s. According to State Department spokesman James P Rubin, "The American government seeks to ensure safe air travel for citizens of all nations. This waiver should not be viewed in terms of political content or messaging."

And then in 2003:

"The United States has stepped up its pressure on Lufthansa over the German airliner's maintenance and overhaul of Iran Air plane engines, the weekly Stern magazine said Thursday, IRNA reported from Berlin.

The unnamed American engine spare parts supplier has threatened to terminate all its business activities with Lufthansa, should it continue to provide Iran Air with US-made engine spare parts.

Lufthansa has reportedly caved in to American pressure and will no longer US-made engine spare parts in Iran Air planes.

The German national carrier has been in charge of Iran Air's maintenance and overhaul for the last four decades. "
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...s/iran/2003/iran-031009-irna01.htm

It's a bit unclear - it first says the US itself, and then it says it was the engine parts supplier. Can anyone clarify this?
 
PIA777
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:02 am

I heard they might shut down ORD flights because of this, is that true?

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
a3
Posts: 212
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 42):
Age of aircraft is not, in iteself, a safety issue.

Correct , age in itself is not , but combined age + lack of proper maintenance and non standard procedures is........

Quoting Khobar (Reply 42):
I said it appears the EU is banning airlines based on age of aircraft rather than actual "safety concerns".

Thats is your assumption , many many more of us participating in this topic think otherwise......
Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
 
imiakhtar
Posts: 611
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting EYFlyer88 (Reply 32):
FRA/AMS/MXP completely stopped?? What about the passengers booked on those flights?

 scratchchin  I think PK has a code-share agreement with TK on the FRA-IST route.

http://www.piac.com.pk/Schedule/pia-Schedule.asp
I just found this revised schedule on the PIA website. unfortunately no mention of the equipment to be used.
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
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solnabo
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:49 am

Why would PIA shut down flights to ORD, they´re flying 777´s.

Micke//  

[Edited 2007-03-09 22:17:43]
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
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solnabo
Posts: 5021
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:14 am

Reading this site, PIA stating they "have a better safety record than even certain European airlines", why dont they say which airline?

http://www.dawn.com/2007/03/07/top10.htm

Micke//  Yeah sure
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
imiakhtar
Posts: 611
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 46):
Why would PIA shut down flights to ORD, they´re flying 777´s.

My guess is that now all aircraft bar the 777 have been banned in the EU, the 777s are being re-scheduled to serve the airports with the higher yields eg. LHR (was served with B743)
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
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RE: EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lea

Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting A3 (Reply 44):
Thats is your assumption , many many more of us participating in this topic think otherwise......

I have provided ample documentation from multiple sources including the EU itself that supports my "assumption" and all it's been countered with is "we think otherwise." Hmmm...