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No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:11 pm

ATWOnline are announcing today that GE have ruled out the GP7000 as a powerplant for the A350XWB-1000.

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8150

Interesting that the announcement comes from GE rather than the Engine Alliance. I wonder if PW are happy with this.

And it seems that talks between Airbus and GE to put the GEnx on the A350-800/-900 are still some way from agreement.

Looks like RR will have the A350-1000 all to itself.
 
ikramerica
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting PM (Thread starter):
Looks like RR will have the A350-1000 all to itself.

Why can't PW build their own engine? Is there some restriction on thrust? Can't PW enter a full range of engines if they choose?
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:29 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Why can't PW build their own engine? Is there some restriction on thrust? Can't PW enter a full range of engines if they choose?

I should imagine that Airbus would be happy to talk to PW about it and I've no doubt that PW could design and build such an engine but it seems unlikely. PW have been cautious about designing engines for new models (starting with the A340-500/-600 if not sooner) and the A350XWB must still be seen as quite a gamble.

It seems out of the question that PW would propose an engine solely for the -1000 so unless Airbus want to offer three engines on the A350 range (and I'm sure they don't) then GE would need to be knocked out of the picture before there's room for PW.

Airlines have apparently said that they want an engine choice on the A350. RR are signed up but Airbus may have trouble finding a second supplier.
 
LH452
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:56 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Why can't PW build their own engine?

If P&W couldn't get their business case to close on the B787, they are definitely not going to be able to do it on the A350 XWB.

Since airlines demand an engine choice, it seems to me that GE is in a pretty good negotiation position. Even if GE officially is saying that they will not develop an engine for the A350-1000, they have plenty of time to change their minds.
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:07 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Airlines have apparently said that they want an engine choice on the A350. RR are signed up but Airbus may have trouble finding a second supplier.

Yes, and GE has their hands full with the 787, 777 LR series, 748, future 767/777 tanker, and the 737NG and 737RS engines they are involved in.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:20 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
future 767/777 tanker

For what it's worth, PW were actually chosen for the aborted 767 tanker programme.
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Yes, and GE has their hands full with the ... 777 LR series, 748,

Of which GE are the sole engine suppliers, which doesnt sit well with :-

Quoting LH452 (Reply 3):

Since airlines demand an engine choice, it seems to me that GE is in a pretty good negotiation position.

If Airlines can sit fine with the 777-300 series being single manufacturer supplied, then the A350-1000 should also be OK.
 
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scbriml
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:47 pm

Quoting LH452 (Reply 3):
Since airlines demand an engine choice

Airlines might prefer to have a choice of engines, but the lack thereof doesn't seem to have had any impact on the sales of 772LR, 773ER, A345, A346 or 748.

If airlines want a particular plane, the lack of an engine choice is a poor reason not order it.
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:03 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
Airlines might prefer to have a choice of engines, but the lack thereof doesn't seem to have had any impact on the sales of 772LR, 773ER, A345, A346 or 748.

Or the 737 for that matter!  Wink
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:32 pm

Quoting PM (Thread starter):
And it seems that talks between Airbus and GE to put the GEnx on the A350-800/-900 are still some way from agreement.

Looks like RR will have the A350-1000 all to itself.

If ever the term "Pie in the Sky" seem appropriate it is now with the A350-1000. On e could argue that the A350 XWB is still miles from being frozen in design. Since the big SQ announcement the game keeps changing from panels to barrels and so forth.

I suspect that the lack of announcements and orders (SQ included) means that the engineers are having trouble trying to match Leahy's glossy brochure. Apart from FinnAir who seem to have 'screwed' Airbus into honouring the original A350 version 6 price there has been a distinct lack of progress in the orders department.

With the delay in Boeing launching the 787-10 I believe is because they are waiting for Airbus to freeze the design. I also think that Boeing are finding it difficult to achieve the -10 objectives with around 245T MTOW and a four wheel main bogie. I suspect Airbus are also struggling in 'matching' the 787 let alone beating it.

The problem for Airbus is how do they tackle the the physical uplift and size of a 773 with only a 4 wheel main gear and somewhere around 250T MTOW.

The Airbus cheerleaders on this site have always proclaimed that the A350-1000 will slaughter the 77W for range and payload. I would like to know how. Maybe the A350 will have 6 wheel main gear and much larger than planned engines and a MTOW approaching the 340 odd ton of 77W and therefore even longer delay and cost to EIS

I find it very interesting that GE are not particularly interested in the A350 (particularly) the stretch 1000 version.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Yes, and GE has their hands full with the 787, 777 LR series, 748, future 767/777 tanker, and the 737NG and 737RS engines they are involved in.

This appears quite logical but there is no doubting that GE and Boeing have become quite close. Is GE taking a calculated risk not to enter or are their hands too full as mentioned above.

Did Boeing have some sort of agreement regarding the GE 90-115B that it cannot be used on anything else.

It all comes back to Airbus trying to compete with the 777/787 combo with the one aircraft. Perhaps they should have slapped Trent 1000s and GEnx on the A330 and developed a twin engined competitor to tackle C market 777s which are killing Airbus A345/6 sales.

PM RR being the sole supplier will be great for RR but not the Airlines as the market will lack the competitive contests to supply powerplants which obviously bring the price down.

Interesting times ahead.... when was SQ supposed to sign??.... maybe when their lawyers have finished with the performance guarantee part of the contract........  scratchchin 
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:35 pm

Quoting LH452 (Reply 3):
Since airlines demand an engine choice,

A myth imo. The best selling aircraft in the history 737 has no engine choice.
 
baroque
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:02 pm

Quoting PM (Thread starter):
Interesting that the announcement comes from GE rather than the Engine Alliance.

The 350 Trents appear not to have been fully defined, which make me wonder if they will not come in quite a bit ahead of the T1000s? The 787 Trents have been running for ?about a year while RR do not seem to have finalized the configuration for the T-XWBs - or am I not reading the RR site correctly?
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:16 pm

Maybe the GP7000 engine are outdated when A350-1000 EIS, who knows..

Btw, I didn´t know that Boeing have monopoly on engine manufactures

Micke//   

[Edited 2007-03-08 11:21:39]
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LH452
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:27 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 10):
A myth imo. The best selling aircraft in the history 737 has no engine choice.

Do you seriously believe that Boeings successor to the 737 will be offered with only one engine.
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting LH452 (Reply 13):
Do you seriously believe that Boeings successor to the 737 will be offered with only one engine.

We know very little about next generation engines for narrow-bodies so it is to early to call. My point is an aircraft can sell very well with 1 engine available only - ie 737 or 773.
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:31 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
The 350 Trents appear not to have been fully defined, which make me wonder if they will not come in quite a bit ahead of the T1000s?

Well its unlikely that they will not be a further development of the 787 trents.
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:47 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 14):
My point is an aircraft can sell very well with 1 engine available only - ie 737 or 773.

I don't disagree, however from a customer point of view it's always better to have a choice.
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:51 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 9):
M RR being the sole supplier will be great for RR

Possibly, but only if the A350 itself is a success. And that's still far from being a given. Having de facto exclusivity on the A345/A346 hasn't been a huge moneyspinner for RR.  Sad

Quoting LH452 (Reply 13):
Do you seriously believe that Boeing's successor to the 737 will be offered with only one engine.

Well, the successor to the 737-300/-400/-500 has only one engine and it has been widely rumoured that Boeing only wanted one engine on the 787. I wouldn't rule it out.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
The 350 Trents appear not to have been fully defined, which make me wonder if they will not come in quite a bit ahead of the T1000s?

Being so far behind the 787 and especially the GE90s on the 777LRs, RR and Airbus must come up with some winning cards if they really want to beat Boeing. The Trent 500 was no great development of previous engines and Airbus (and RR) are paying the price. RR really need to pull some rabbits out of their hat this time.
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 17):
Quoting LH452 (Reply 13):
Do you seriously believe that Boeing's successor to the 737 will be offered with only one engine.

Well, the successor to the 737-300/-400/-500 has only one engine and it has been widely rumoured that Boeing only wanted one engine on the 787. I wouldn't rule it out.

I would not be surprised to see just one CFM56 based engine choice
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:45 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 17):
The Trent 500 was no great development of previous engines and Airbus (and RR) are paying the price.

You are not wrong there PM. As a RR fan you are very aware that the Trent 500 is a disappointment when compared to the rest of the Trent Family and in particular A330 and 772 RR powerplants.

As for the GE 90-115B that performed way above what anyone would have expected in terms of reliability and efficiency.

We may see in the future with the A350-1000 a glimpse of what the Trent 8104 might have been had RR got onto the "C" market 777s.

Quoting PM (Reply 17):
RR really need to pull some rabbits out of their hat this time.

I suspect that with similar twin engine airframes that the differences between Trent 1000 and GEnx will not be as great as between GE 90-115B and Trent 500. Actually PM despite GE picking up QF for 787 powerplants I expect GE and RR to maintain the same sort of similar "duopoly" that Airbus and Boeing have now.........
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:53 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 19):
Actually PM despite GE picking up QF for 787 powerplants I expect GE and RR to maintain the same sort of similar "duopoly" that Airbus and Boeing have now.........

I would have been more confident had QF gone for RR and closed the gap. As it is, it'll take a while for RR to claw their way back. SQ choosing RR (if they do) will be a start...
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 17):
Well, the successor to the 737-300/-400/-500 has only one engine and it has been widely rumoured that Boeing only wanted one engine on the 787. I wouldn't rule it out.

I wouldn't rule anything out, but I believe there very specific reasons behind IAE's decision not put the V25 on the 737NG. Boeing was very clear on that wanted two engines on the 787 based on lessons learned from the initial 777, where the airlines had three options. It did not make economical sense for the engine companies.
 
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting LH452 (Reply 21):
I believe there very specific reasons behind IAE's decision not put the V25 on the 737NG

It was touted for a while but never happened. My understanding is not that IAE "decided" not to put the V2500 on the 737NG but that Boeing wouldn't have them.

Quoting LH452 (Reply 21):
Boeing was very clear on that wanted two engines on the 787 based on lessons learned from the initial 777, where the airlines had three options. It did not make economical sense for the engine companies.

Yes and no. What they were "clear" about was not wanting three engines. That doesn't mean they were all that keen on two.
 
atmx2000
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting LH452 (Reply 21):
Boeing was very clear on that wanted two engines on the 787 based on lessons learned from the initial 777, where the airlines had three options. It did not make economical sense for the engine companies.

Boeing considered one, but airlines objected.
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EI321
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 23):
Quoting LH452 (Reply 21):
Boeing was very clear on that wanted two engines on the 787 based on lessons learned from the initial 777, where the airlines had three options. It did not make economical sense for the engine companies.

Boeing considered one, but airlines objected.

Is objected the right word? I cant see airlines objecting to having another option available to them on the 787, it could even give them a reason for further discounts on the engines! They probably just did not have much interest. How many airlines have ordered 787s that dont have GE or RR on their 767s?
 
atmx2000
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 24):
Is objected the right word? I cant see airlines objecting to having another option available to them on the 787, it could even give them a reason for further discounts on the engines! They probably just did not have much interest. How many airlines have ordered 787s that dont have GE or RR on their 767s?

Boeing considered having one engine manufacturer only. They were told no by the airlines.

[Edited 2007-03-08 15:41:03]
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
SCAT15F
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:12 am

One thing is for sure- P&W has got to get on the ball with a next generation replacement for the PW-4000 series if it plans to be competitive with GE in the future. GE being the only game in town is not a good thing. It almost appears as if P&W is ceding the market to GE and RR.  fight 
 
EI321
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 26):
One thing is for sure- P&W has got to get on the ball with a next generation replacement for the PW-4000 series if it plans to be competitive with GE in the future.

Isnt the GP7200 based on the GE90 with a 4000 fan?
 
Areopagus
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 26):
P&W has got to get on the ball with a next generation replacement for the PW-4000 series if it plans to be competitive with GE in the future.

P&W has said that it is concentrating on recovering its position in narrowbody engines, and will not pursue the A350.
 
Lemurs
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:40 am

If Pratt is really as far along with the Geared Turbofan as they've been saying, and they can bring the product to market quickly, they will own the next-gen narrowbody market for a good spell that should make their bottom line look very good. That is the next great leap in engine efficiency, so being ahead of the competition is a big deal. They have to actually deliver on that of course. (A problem for them in recent years, as many have pointed out.)

Still, if they get that to work, look for them to run away with the 737/320 replacement market until GE and RR manage to catch up. If they bomb...they're in serious, serious, trouble. (For commercial aviation.)
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
LAXintl
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting LH452 (Reply 16):
however from a customer point of view it's always better to have a choice.

Maybe not..

To date both manufacturers have done a good job with their exclusive engine choices. By only offering a single choice, manufactures have secured quite preferential pricing on those engines which benefits all customer. In addition aircraft standardization helps with the manufacturing and certification processes along with providing benefits with after sale maintenance and valuation.

Exclusive engine use is only one item of many such that manufactures are doing pushing for lean production methods. For instance Boeing recently announced the 748 would only be available with a single suite of avionics. Until recently airlines had to haggle with multiple choices, while Boeing sat on the sidelines. Now with a single vendor pricing is inclusive of the overall aircraft purchase and not additional extra that had to be negotiated individually by every airline.

As long as the manufactures continue to share the benefits of such standardization with airlines and dont lead to abusive pricing practices, many of these exclusive supplier deals can be quite beneficial.
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scbriml
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting PM (Reply 8):
Or the 737 for that matter!

Doh! How could I have forgotten the biggest-selling, no engine choice type?  banghead 

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 9):
the game keeps changing from panels to barrels and so forth.

Only here on a.net. When did Airbus ever say they were doing a CF barrel for the A350?

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 9):
with only a 4 wheel main gear

Has Airbus said the A350 will only have 4-wheel MLG?
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jacobin777
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 6):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Yes, and GE has their hands full with the ... 777 LR series, 748,

Of which GE are the sole engine suppliers, which doesnt sit well with :-

Quoting LH452 (Reply 3):

Since airlines demand an engine choice, it seems to me that GE is in a pretty good negotiation position.

If Airlines can sit fine with the 777-300 series being single manufacturer supplied, then the A350-1000 should also be OK.

..its all about economics friend......especially in this day and age when engine servicing is contracted out (i.e. such as "power by the hour".....

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 9):

I find it very interesting that GE are not particularly interested in the A350 (particularly) the stretch 1000 version.

....I'm certainly no expert on this subject...but something to consider is the "deficiency" (I'm using the term loosley) of the double-spool design of the GENx versus the triple-spool design of the Trents...

IIRC, I do remember reading that the GENx is basically approaching the top-end range of its thrust, so there is a possibility of GE not being able to design an engine for the A350-1000 if they needed to (with current GENx technology that is)..

We need the input of fellow engine guru A.netter Lightsaber here.....

....where art thou oh wise one...?  Smile

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 9):
I also think that Boeing are finding it difficult to achieve the -10 objectives with around 245T MTOW and a four wheel main bogie. I suspect Airbus are also struggling in 'matching' the 787 let alone beating it.

IIRC, it will possibly be a triple bogie also....

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 9):

It all comes back to Airbus trying to compete with the 777/787 combo with the one aircraft.

ILFC and EK have been on record stating this also.....the problem is trying to take on two markets with one plane...the plane will be "optimised" to suit its strengths.....but that will leave some obvious weaknesses somewhere..and I think Airbus feels its better to leave the "lower end" of the spectrum (i.e. the B787-8) and focus on the larger end (B773, A340's, etc).....

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 12):
Maybe the GP7000 engine are outdated when A350-1000 EIS, who knows..

See above....also, GE stated that they would only go with the A350-900 via the Engine Alliance (which they are balking at right now it seems)...
"Up the Irons!"
 
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Stitch
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:55 am

GE may be waiting in order to try and develop a new family of engines able to scale beyond 100,000lbs thrust so they can power not only the XWB, but also Y3.
 
LH452
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 30):
For instance Boeing recently announced the 748 would only be available with a single suite of avionics

The reason that a single suit of avionics and a single choice of engine etc. is available on the 748 is that the market size is relitavily small and development of alternatives is not justifiable from an economical point of view.

If you were to buy a specific car for example, would you like to be able to choose between a number of dealerships and then play them against each other or just a single one? Which scenario do you think will get you the best deal? It's supply and demand 101.
 
LAXintl
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting LH452 (Reply 34):
The reason that a single suit of avionics and a single choice of engine etc. is available on the 748 is that the market size is relitavily small and development of alternatives is not justifiable from an economical point of view.

Trust me, the 748 avionics standardization has nothing to do with a small market. The 748 is using basically a common cockpit as with the 744 with multiple available suppliers. Boeing went to a single supplier strictly based on its desire to drive down cost and help produce a leaner manufacturing process. It could very well left all the 744 suppliers in the game.

From an airlines perspective as a I elaborated in the earlier post, the single supplier arangement for the most part so far have been beneficial.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
LH452
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 35):
From an airlines perspective as a I elaborated in the earlier post, the single supplier arangement for the most part so far have been beneficial.

From your logic I deduct that the from an airline perspective the best possible scenario is to have one aircraft, one engine, etc. to choose from. I doubt that! Just out of curiosity, does the same logic apply to the travelling public? "Give the American Consumer more Choices"
 
LAXintl
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RE: No GP7000 For A350XWB-1000

Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting LH452 (Reply 36):

What I am saying is in the case of the airframe manufactures exclusive supplier deals they have worked out quite well do date for many airlines. Simplifying the myriad of options and configuration versions which serve to drive prices up has significant benefits to both the suppliers, manufacturers and airlines.

Keep in mind this is a two way street also. Its not only the manufactures pushing for this, its the airlines also looking to simplify things. For instance Star Alliance has projects to simplify and design common items ranging everything from the cups used serve drinks onboard to entire aircraft configurations which all yield financial and operational benefits.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California