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DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:42 pm

Here's the link to the story from Reuters. Was this expected? The 767 ball just keeps on rolling!!!

https://www.etrade.wallst.com/v1/stocks/news/news_story.asp?docKey=354-WEN5230-41G29TD5C6IFKOVBMTS2C2D5E9&DMSourceID=RTRIDS&Source=Reuters&docDate=2007-03-08%2013:21:00&headline=Boeing%20says%20DHL%20orders%20six%20freighter%20aircraft&refSymbols=|US;BA|&

[Edited 2007-03-08 16:00:33]
 
manni
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:01 am

That's a first for DHL, a nice amount of aircraft (again an order for 6 freighters) but given the size of DHL a rather small order. Orders appear to be accounted for on Boeing's website. I assume last weeks unidentified order for 6 767's

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070308/bs_nm/boeing_dhl_dc_1
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DfwRevolution
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:07 am

Well how about that?  eyebrow 

Crafty ole' Bassler surely had some idea this was coming before he published his latest blog about the recent momentum in the 767 family.
 
CV580Freak
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:09 am

New aircraft order, now that's a first for DHL .....
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floridaflyboy
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:09 am

I take it these will be for their european operation, eh?
Good goes around!
 
flyorski
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:11 am

Is the first time DHL has ordered new, rather than used?
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floridaflyboy
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 4):
I take it these will be for their european operation, eh?

Oops, I guess I should read further. It says it's for the US operation. Do you suppose these will go to ABX Air, or do you think they will go to replace Astar's aging fleet of A300's? Interesting question, seeing as DHL doesn't own either.

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 5):
Is the first time DHL has ordered new, rather than used?

I think some of the DHL 757's in europe were new order aircraft. But I'm not 100% positive on that.
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kc135topboom
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 4):
I take it these will be for their european operation, eh?

I would guess transatlantic, between Europe ant the US, as well as between the middleeast and Europe.

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 5):
Is the first time DHL has ordered new, rather than used?

I believe it is. Hmmm, big yellow B-767-300ERFs.
 
quickmover
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 6):
It says it's for the US operation

I didn't think they were allowed under law to operate aircraft within the US.
 
manni
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 6):
I think some of the DHL 757's in europe were new order aircraft. But I'm not 100% positive on that.

Most (perhaps all) 757's DHL has in Europe are ex BA aircraft.

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 5):
Is the first time DHL has ordered new, rather than used?

I'm not 100% on this one, but I believe it is.
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floridaflyboy
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 8):
I didn't think they were allowed under law to operate aircraft within the US.

They can't. It would have to be operated by one of their two contract carriers here. Of course, they could always have their european carriers fly it on Trans-atlantic flights.
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osiris30
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:21 am

You know I was wondering... Are Boeing selling these freighters to keep the line open for the tanker, or have they already been told they pretty much have the tanker deal and are actively selling filler slots on the line?

Boeing has moved an impressive number of 767s in the last little while and I doubt all of them were needed to keep the line open for the tanker project. Personally I think they've already been told the deal is pretty much theirs. I'm sure Putin's posturing hasn't helped the 330 tanker bid.
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LifelinerOne
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 11):
You know I was wondering... Are Boeing selling these freighters to keep the line open for the tanker, or have they already been told they pretty much have the tanker deal and are actively selling filler slots on the line?

If that's the case, it would eventually leak out and it would mean that the whole process will be restarted once again because Northrop Grumman would be kicking, screaming and probably deliver a law suit at Congress' doors.

I think Boeing has an advantage with the B767F because it's available on rather short notice and, because they need to keep the line open, probably offer good discounts for the potential customers involved.

Hamlet already said that this order would be a surprise and a surprise it is! I've never expected DHL to order new planes, as they were big fans of reconfiguring old passenger planes. Would be an awesome sight, those yellow planes!

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CV580Freak
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:31 am

I'm not too sure if these would operate within Europe as they have their B757's and A300's covering the major trunk routes and the transatlantic routes are operated by MD11's either jointly with LH or leased in from Gemini.

There are also plans to expand their Latin American operations so maybe they'll operate to/from there.

It really depends who actually purchased these aircraft, ie was it the DHL group direct or their contracted operators ABX or Astar ?.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 11):
You know I was wondering... Are Boeing selling these freighters to keep the line open for the tanker, or have they already been told they pretty much have the tanker deal and are actively selling filler slots on the line?

I think they are selling 767F because it is a very capable freighter and one of the only widebody aircraft in the world with near-term availability.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 12):
I think Boeing has an advantage with the B767F because it's available on rather short notice and, because they need to keep the line open, probably offer good discounts for the potential customers involved.

Even with discounts, orders like these toward the end of the production life can be some of the most profitable....
 
atmx2000
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
I think they are selling 767F because it is a very capable freighter and one of the only widebody aircraft in the world with near-term availability.

I think early during its life as a jet it was more popular than the competition as a passenger jet, so Boeing demanded a premium that freight carriers less willing to pay, so those carriers went with the A300. Now with passenger airline orders significantly reduced, Boeing is willing to be more aggressive with pricing, and they can afford to given the 767 family is paid for. It also helps that Airbus no longer is advantaged by extremely weak European currencies and that the A300 line is be closed down.
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ikramerica
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:11 am

Also, Airbus closed down the A300F line, the competition. Companies may have been waiting to see what the A330F was like, and now they are making their choice between the two. Some are choosing the A330F, others the 767F, some will choose both...
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BrowntailWhale
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:27 am

All of you so called "experts" have conveniently left out the one US airline that DHL own 49% of ...... Polar.
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting BrowntailWhale (Reply 17):
All of you so called "experts" have conveniently left out the one US airline that DHL own 49% of ...... Polar

I thought of it, but I wasn't sure if DHL had hashed out the actual flying agreement with Polar yet. I guess it's always possible that these will go to them. I think it's also possible that these may go to Astar to replace the A300 aircraft, seeing as Astar has six or seven A300 aircraft and this order is for 6 767 aircraft.
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eraugrad02
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:27 am

Well the new order is def. listed now as DHL...

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/

I wonder who the other 3 will be for? Also would Boeing make a 767 BBJ? Based of the new model 767-200LR.
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columba
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:43 am

Cool I recently heard rumors that DHL wants to expand and will place an order for 767 because of commonality with their 757s.
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floridaflyboy
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 20):
Cool I recently heard rumors that DHL wants to expand and will place an order for 767 because of commonality with their 757s.

Yeah, I remember hearing that on this forum a few months back that they were considering replacing some of the A300's in Europe with 767 aircraft for the commonality.
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eraugrad02
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 21):
Yeah, I remember hearing that on this forum a few months back that they were considering replacing some of the A300's in Europe with 767 aircraft for the commonality.

You'd think they'd order more than 6. Maybe this is just a start. Did they say anything about further options? On another note, will Boeing start building more than 2 a month now that they have like 68 planes to build as of now?
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ER757
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:42 am

Well, this is a surprise - there isn't even anything about this order on our intranet site! I'll keep watching to see if there's a blurb about whether these will go to Astar/ABX etc. I am sure they aren't for PO, our agreement with them is just that we get space on their aircraft between N America & Asia
 
legoguy
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:46 am

How long has the 767-300ERF been offered for by Boeing? There seems to have been alot of orders for it recently!!  Smile
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:01 am

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fxramper
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:05 am

A small order for World Express. I guess they wanna keep the line clear for the FX order.  duck 
 
Ward86IND
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:17 am

It'll be pretty neat to see this plane being produced alongside the aircraft intended to replace it. Long live the 767!
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CV580Freak
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:27 am

The Boeing site quotes 'DHL International' so I expect they will either operate in Europe or Asia. Seems a bit too much of an aircraft for the short European routes though.
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tayaramecanici
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 15):
I think early during its life as a jet it was more popular than the competition as a passenger jet, so Boeing demanded a premium that freight carriers less willing to pay, so those carriers went with the A300

Container commonality with the B747 (the Long haul work horse) was one of the deciding factors for most airlines choosing the A300-600 over the B767 which has a narrow fuselage in comparison.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):
Also, Airbus closed down the A300F line, the competition. Companies may have been waiting to see what the A330F was like, and now they are making their choice between the two. Some are choosing the A330F, others the 767F, some will choose both...

Bear in mind the poor inservice record of the A330 pax. At launch the A330 almost killed the B767 sales due to its superior op economics but now that the structural defects due to cyclic loading are showing up i.e Rib 9 cracks. Aircrafts need to be grounded for 6weeks for this repair. B767 maint costs are any day lower than a A330. The A300 are plagued with their own problems of FR47 cracks that cost over a $1m to repair not accounting for the loss in revenue.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 24):
How long has the 767-300ERF been offered for by Boeing? There seems to have been alot of orders for it recently!!

This is an absolute body blow to Airbus its only selling WB gets renewed competition from rival it had nearly finished off.
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EA772LR
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:40 am

Congrats to the 767 family!
Just a thought, but would it make any sense for Boeing to make a 767-400ERF?
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floridaflyboy
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:42 am

Well, they're definitely not going to ABX. I called my dad (who's a pilot for ABX) this morning and he was in a meeting with the system chief pilot and the CEO (Joe Hete), and this was the first they'd heard of any of it.
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glideslope
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:01 am

Congrats DHL!!! New frames "Holy Cow." Airbus better get that 332F in the air ASAP.  bigthumbsup 
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2wingtips
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:13 am

FedEx, UPS and now DHL have apparently rejected the A330F. I would have thought all 3 would have been major targets for Airbus and they failed on all 3. Somehow, I don't think the 330F is going to be a runaway success.
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting CV580Freak (Reply 28):
The Boeing site quotes 'DHL International' so I expect they will either operate in Europe or Asia. Seems a bit too much of an aircraft for the short European routes though.

This was announced by DHL's USA division head, and most of the articles about it specify that they are for the United States operation, not Europe or Asia.
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EA772LR
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:18 am

When is the A332F supposed to enter service anyway? I would have thought with the extensive Airbus fleet in FedEx and UPS that they'd have waited for the A332F, unless they needed more lift ASAP. Any thoughts??
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wjcandee
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:29 am

Here's my guess:

DHL orders 763Fs for some part of its operation.

Noting all the free publicity that the other Big Boys in the US got from their Boeing orders, DHL decides to say something in the press release about its "strong third" ("strong" being open to interpretation) in US overnight delivery. It would be bizarre for them to place these aircraft wtih AStar, given ABXAir's experience with the type and given their superior operating standards (e.g. CATIII landing procedures, approvals, and capabilities). However, I don't pretend that DHL's operational decisions in the US have made much sense... I'm guessing that they get used on routes TO the US from elsewhere.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
Even with discounts, orders like these toward the end of the production life can be some of the most profitable....

Agreed, all your costs are already paid so probably every plane means $$.

Cheers!  wave 
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floridaflyboy
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 36):
However, I don't pretend that DHL's operational decisions in the US have made much sense...

My sentiment exactly  Smile

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 36):
I'm guessing that they get used on routes TO the US from elsewhere.

I think that's highly possible. Maybe with Polar.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 36):
would be bizarre for them to place these aircraft wtih AStar

I agree. It's just that the number seems to fit Astar so well.
Good goes around!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 24):
How long has the 767-300ERF been offered for by Boeing? There seems to have been alot of orders for it recently!!

Launched - January 15, 1993
Entered service - October 16, 1995

Orders to date - 83
Deliveries to date - 46

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 35):
When is the A332F supposed to enter service anyway?

If Airbus maintains their delivery schedule, late 2009.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 35):
I would have thought with the extensive Airbus fleet in FedEx and UPS that they'd have waited for the A332F, unless they needed more lift ASAP. Any thoughts??

Both FedEx and UPS do need immediate lift because they were both anticipating A380F deliveries in 2008. Why didn't they convert their order into the A330F? After their experience with the A380F, perhaps just the letter A in A330....

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 33):
FedEx, UPS and now DHL have apparently rejected the A330F. I would have thought all 3 would have been major targets for Airbus and they failed on all 3. Somehow, I don't think the 330F is going to be a runaway success.

New-build freighters usually aren't barn-burners as the demand for about 75% of freight aircraft is fulfilled by the conversion of passenger aircraft.
 
EA772LR
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:14 am

Perhaps you're right DfwRevolution. I didn't even think of that. Maybe with the delays of the 380 (unfortunately) The 3 major players (FedEx, UPS, DHL) got a little nervous waiting on the 332F. I would love to see either 380 or 332F in any of the freighters colors!
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legoguy
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 39):
Launched - January 15, 1993
Entered service - October 16, 1995

Orders to date - 83
Deliveries to date - 46



Quoting Tayaramecanici (Reply 29):
This is an absolute body blow to Airbus its only selling WB gets renewed competition from rival it had nearly finished off.

Why the sudden large amount of orders after 12 years, especially with newer cargo aircraft around?

What is the price difference between the 763F and a332F?
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727forever
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:23 am

Astar currently operates 6 A300B4-200s. The leases on these aircraft are up starting this year and the last one will be gone in 2009. DHL does not like these aircraft as they have a very poor dispatch reliability and are very inefficient. They burn roughly 13,000 lbs/hr which is quite a bit more than the roughly 8-9,000 lbs/hr that the 762s burn. The A300 does carry quite a bit more freight than the 762F can carry. It would make sense that the 763 order is to replace these A300s that are going away. However, as to which operator is anyone's guess. DHL is going to use them as a bargaining chip to the ABX and Astar pilot groups both of which are stalled in years of bitter contract negotiations. Carrot anyone???

727forever
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atmx2000
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:35 am

Quoting Tayaramecanici (Reply 29):
Container commonality with the B747 (the Long haul work horse) was one of the deciding factors for most airlines choosing the A300-600 over the B767 which has a narrow fuselage in comparison.

While that was important for some passenger airlines, it isn't so important for cargo airlines, who use other types of containers and pallets.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 41):
Why the sudden large amount of orders after 12 years, especially with newer cargo aircraft around?

It's in a smaller size category than the newer cargo aircraft, and the newer cargo aircraft are members of of aircraft families that have passenger models that are in high demand. Competition for slots between airlines increases the manufacturers pricing power, and makes them less likely to discount.

One also could have asked the same of the A300, which sold well as a new build freighter in the early 90s some 20 years after its debut. The A300 is a 10 year older family than the 767, and the passenger A300s weren't so competitive in direct competition against similar sized 767 passenger models. Now the 767 is doing the same as a new build freighter some 25 yrs after the debut of the family after it has been superceded by new passenger aircraft models.
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SpinalTap
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 41):
Why the sudden large amount of orders after 12 years, especially with newer cargo aircraft around?

My guess is that with so many 787 orders they expect a lot of cheap 767s to be floating around in a few years ripe for conversion to freighters. Ordering a few new 767 at this stage may just be a stop gap measure as they may need capacity sooner.
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ERJ170
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:31 am

Where are all the 737 orders? only 3 for the first 3 months? that's not a good sign is it?
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floridaflyboy
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting 727forever (Reply 42):
DHL is going to use them as a bargaining chip to the ABX and Astar pilot

DHL doesn't get to bargain with either company's pilots. In fact, DHL could care less about the pilots' negotiations as long as it doesn't effect the cost of their ACMI agreement. I agree with you, though, that this could go to either carrier.

[Edited 2007-03-09 03:04:06]
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ER757
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 38):
Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 36):
I'm guessing that they get used on routes TO the US from elsewhere.

I think that's highly possible. Maybe with Polar.

Yes they could be used on flights TO the US, but no they won't be with Polar. DHL's agreement with Polar is simply confirmed space on Polar's flights between North America and Asia. DHL (or more accurately Deutsche Post) does not "own" Polar/Atlas - they bought a stake in the company (and not a controlling one at that) and as part of that investment, got the recurring space for 20 years. Atlas/Polar will be handling all their own fleet purchases.
 
warszawa
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:15 pm

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070308a_nr.html

" "Adding the wide-body 767 Freighter to our network allows us to grow our business considerably," said John Mullen, CEO DHL Express. "This acquisition will support the DHL Express strategy with particular emphasis on renewing and updating the network supporting operations that serve the U.S. market." DHL has successfully established a solid number 3 market position in the U.S. and is striving to expand its overall leadership in the global express business. "

Based on that - It appears they are going to be based in the USA. "Reneweing and updating" to me, with the 6 old A300B2's DHL has, it appears those will be replaced by these 763's.

As to whom it'll go to...ABX air (Has 762's and the Pilots for this aircraft), versus, Astar Air Cargo (Has the A300B2's that have to be replaced - Doesnt fly 767's)...tough call. They'll probably go to Astar, in my opinion (as odd as that is), and the A300B2 pilots will train for these 763's at ABX's facilities (If this is possible? I'd assume so).

It also seems likely that these aircraft are to replace the contracts currently in place with Northwest and Gemini Air Cargo (Lufthansa Group). Eliminate NWA Cargo on the ILN-ANC runs, GAC on the England run, and possibly initiate DHL's first Hawaiian flights (Contracted out to various airlines including passenger airlines). Though, as to the A300's in this case...no idea what would come of those.

[Edited 2007-03-09 05:18:07]
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wjcandee
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RE: DHL Order 6 767-300ERF

Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:15 pm

Quoting 727forever (Reply 42):
Astar currently operates 6 A300B4-200s. The leases on these aircraft are up starting this year and the last one will be gone in 2009. DHL does not like these aircraft as they have a very poor dispatch reliability and are very inefficient. They burn roughly 13,000 lbs/hr which is quite a bit more than the roughly 8-9,000 lbs/hr that the 762s burn. The A300 does carry quite a bit more freight than the 762F can carry. It would make sense that the 763 order is to replace these A300s that are going away. However, as to which operator is anyone's guess.

This all makes sense, particularly since the headline has to do with "refleeting US operations". But I have to say that it would seem odd to put these aircraft with AStar when ABX has so much experience with them. OTOH, I would think that if they planned to play the carriers off on each other, DHL would have at least TOLD ABX that they were doing this. According to a post above, Hete, of ABX, knew nothing about it when it was announced.

That said, why they would want new-build freighters when they're not getting the kind of hours that would justify the capital cost is also beyond me. Running the thing from JFK-ILN and back doesn't justify a new aircraft. Running the thing across country or on more than one round-trip per day might.

But, like I said, it seems like DHL's operational decision-making process in the US isn't one that makes any sense to me...

[Edited 2007-03-09 05:18:46]

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