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SLCUT2777
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DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:09 am

Delta Air Lines still wants to eventually launch service to Europe from it's hub in SLC. While we've discussed this before for 2007 last fall, an article in this mornings Salt Lake Tribune got this rolling again:
http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_5391553
Here are the issues:
Does SLC really have a large enough O&D market to offer such a service?
Is CDG the best option for DL? Or if a route authority into LGW could be obtained (right now SLC isn't included on the U.S./U.K. bilateral--which would probably give BA first refusal on it), would that be better?
If LH can get PDX to work from FRA, would SLC be able to deal with such a flight given all the German tourists and skiers that show up throughout Utah during all seasons?
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:12 am

I think the 763 would really struggle to get out of SLC on a hot summer day for CDG......Probably for pax and cargo the AF A340 is a better bet
 
panamair
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter):
Does SLC really have a large enough O&D market to offer such a service?

Or the business market? The answer is pretty much a no and that's why DL will only start such a route if there is some sort of subsidy from the local govt /business community (as Whitehurst indicated in the article).
 
Evan767
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:54 am

I have heard this won't happen for a while if at all.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
haggis79
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:35 am

well, if it's going to be SLC-CDG I just hope they won't use a 763ER.... old outdated a/c which I wouldn't really like for a flight this long...

but I guess a 764 doesn't have the range and otoh I doubt AF is going to start this route.... but still I'd really like to see an AF 332 IF this route happens... one can dream...  Wink
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skibum9
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 4):
I just hope they won't use a 763ER.... old outdated a/c which I wouldn't really like for a flight this long...

but I guess a 764 doesn't have the range and otoh I doubt AF is going to start this route

So just how is a 763 old and outdated and a 764 is not? It is the same airframe with a few modifications. Same cabin width and same wing. The 764 has a newer interior, when compared to DL's 763s, but DL is upgrading its interiors. So how is it outdated? So once the interior upgrades are done, what's the big deal?
Tailwinds!!!
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:17 am

Flights from SLC to CDG/LGW can also benefit from connecting pax, not just O&D. It would be one more option for passengers wanting to get to London from the west coast. If you did not want to connect in ATL, CVG, or JFK, you could go through SLC.

I'd gladly welcome an SLC-LGW flight.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:24 am

Utah recieves ALOT of tourists from europe in both the summer for national parks etc and skiing in the winter so i think that plus the mormon missionaries plus the hub delta runs with connecting traffic are more than enough to fill 76s to paris, london, frankfurt.

If a route to europe with no tourists and no connecting traffic can work out of Portland it can work out of SALT LAKE CITY.

The thing that is holding dl back is the hot summer temperatures, the runway length, and they want a huge cash gurantee to start the route. i think dl is just waiting to get money because they know the city of slc will pay it. remember dl is locking down slc, atl and jfk as THE hubs. those are the future of delta. its better to have the cvg fligths to europe out of slc than cvg they are mostly connecting traffic from the west anyway. eastern people can be routed thru atl or jfk.
 
SESGDL
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter):
Does SLC really have a large enough O&D market to offer such a service?
Is CDG the best option for DL?

The route does not have enough O&D but connections would be enough to make it work. It provides relatively easy connecting service to Europe from a number of cities without many other alternatives (though there are still other connections): BLI, GEG, PSC, BOI, BZN, IDA, JAC, RNO, FCA, EKO, CPR, HLN, BIL, EUG, SLE, etc. Not to mention service from large cities like SFO, SJC, OAK, SMF, PDX, SEA, YVR, LAS, PHX, LAX, ONT, SNA, SAN, etc. which would attract DL Skymiles members and frequent fliers. There are also the connections in CDG, so they service would have no problem working.

The service will likely be launched in summer of 2008. I don't see the 763ER having too much of an issue getting out of SLC on the 12,000 foot runway. The only issues would likely occur in the hottest summer days, when there would have to be some weight restrictions. Thank God SLC isn't as high as DEN though, then there'd really be problems.

Jeremy
 
haggis79
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 5):
So just how is a 763 old and outdated and a 764 is not? It is the same airframe with a few modifications. Same cabin width and same wing. The 764 has a newer interior, when compared to DL's 763s, but DL is upgrading its interiors. So how is it outdated? So once the interior upgrades are done, what's the big deal?

well, for one the 764 cabin just "feels" nicer with the Boeing Signature interior... plus they have headrests in eco (don't know if they are gonna add them to the 763 as well?)...

and then of course, even if I will get flamed for that: the IFE.... the 764 and AFs 332 having AVOD (kinda AVOD in AFs case) whereas the 763ER has only the "big screen" - not even overhead screens.... and no signs this is gonna change soon...

besides, I just prefer AF over DL on intercontinental flights... imho they have a much better service (at least in Y, cannot judge about J) with free drinks etc. and if I'm not mistaken they also have more F/As on their flights for the same size of plane....
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Evan767
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 4):
well, if it's going to be SLC-CDG I just hope they won't use a 763ER.... old outdated a/c which I wouldn't really like for a flight this long...

but I guess a 764 doesn't have the range and otoh I doubt AF is going to start this route.... but still I'd really like to see an AF 332 IF this route happens... one can dream...

764's do have the range, but the route would/will be launched with a 763. Sorry.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
anthsaun
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:33 am

LGW will do better than CDG.
Over 80 years in business say a lot about success
 
SESGDL
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Anthsaun (Reply 11):
LGW will do better than CDG.

From an O&D standpoint, but due to DL's alliance with AF, SLC-CDG is definitely the better choice.

Jeremy
 
haggis79
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 10):
764's do have the range, but the route would/will be launched with a 763. Sorry.

no need to be sorry.... I don't need to fly that route if I don't want to.... there's still many possibility of connecting somewhere...  Smile
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 4):
I guess a 764 doesn't have the range

764ER can do the route

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 4):
but still I'd really like to see an AF 332 IF this route happens

More likely to see it flown with an Abomination if AF were the ones opping such a route, as that aircraft's config is slightly more tailored toward a heavily-leisure op than is their A332.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
haggis79
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 14):
More likely to see it flown with an Abomination if AF were the ones opping such a route, as that aircraft's config is slightly more tailored toward a heavily-leisure op than is their A332.

with a WHAT?  Wink
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BigGSFO
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 7):
If a route to europe with no tourists and no connecting traffic can work out of Portland it can work out of SALT LAKE CITY.

Portland is LH's gateway to the US Pacific Northwest which arguably draws just it's fair share of tourism. Stating "no tourists" is selling it short. In terms of connecting traffic - lest you forget LH's Frankfurt hub.

Not saying SLC-CDG couldn't work, but let's not compare to PDX. Two different markets altogether.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 8):
The route does not have enough O&D but connections would be enough to make it work. It provides relatively easy connecting service to Europe from a number of cities without many other alternatives (though there are still other connections): BLI, GEG, PSC, BOI, BZN, IDA, JAC, RNO, FCA, EKO, CPR, HLN, BIL, EUG, SLE, etc. Not to mention service from large cities like SFO, SJC, OAK, SMF, PDX, SEA, YVR, LAS, PHX, LAX, ONT, SNA, SAN, etc. which would attract DL Skymiles members and frequent fliers. There are also the connections in CDG, so they service would have no problem working.

I would think the economic models would have to lean towards stonrger O&D to make a long haul flight like SLC-CDG to work. Every connecting passengers dilutes the yield. Most likely DL isn't counting on the mountain communities to fills this flight although the incremental traffic would help.

SFO, LAX, SEA Elites will most likely opt for AF non-stops (which DL code-shares) They can still get their miles. Naturally they will cash in those miles for free tickets to Europe via SLC.
 
rwsea
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 8):
The route does not have enough O&D but connections would be enough to make it work. It provides relatively easy connecting service to Europe from a number of cities without many other alternatives (though there are still other connections): BLI, GEG, PSC, BOI, BZN, IDA, JAC, RNO, FCA, EKO, CPR, HLN, BIL, EUG, SLE, etc. Not to mention service from large cities like SFO, SJC, OAK, SMF, PDX, SEA, YVR, LAS, PHX, LAX, ONT, SNA, SAN, etc. which would attract DL Skymiles members and frequent fliers. There are also the connections in CDG, so they service would have no problem working.

Well that might be true to a point, but at the same time, most of these cities already have one-stop service to Europe via SEA, MSP, LAX, or others. I don't understand why people from places like Southern California, the Bay Area, or Pacific Northwest could choose SLC as a connecting point when there are already multiple nonstops to Europe from these areas (and all have nonstop service to Paris as it is).

Consider the following scenarios:

GEG - FRA; easy one-stop connection in PDX, or two stop via SEA and LHR/CPH/AMS/CDG. DL through SLC would require 2 stops regardless (SLC and CDG, or SLC and ATL/JFK).

RNO - LGW; would still require 2 stops as it would today. Could just as easily make one stop through SFO.

BIL - CDG; this would reduce the number of stops, but how many markets like this can really support a flight through SLC?

The problem is, only where people from these cities want to fly to PARIS will there be any advantage of routing through SLC. For any other European city, they will still need to make two connections on DL under the best-case scenario. Thus, if they're flying to one of the more major destinations (LON, FRA, AMS, etc.) they'd still be likely to pick a different carrier because they'd have fewer connections. And for any other smaller market, DL can just as easily route them through SLC and either JFK/ATL. Sure, DL would probably be able to pick up some traffic from bigger markets like SEA, SFO, and LAX, but the only passengers willing to do so would be bargain-hunters looking for the best fares (which certainly won't produce yields that would make such a flight profitable).

The real question boils down to this: how many SLC O&D pax and mountain state pax want to fly to Paris? If that number could support a daily flight, it could be successful. But when you look at total demand to Europe from the same places, this flight becomes less relevant because it really won't save these people that much time. It might be nice for SLC pax headed to BOM to be able to change in CDG instead of JFK, but will that really do anything to help DL's bottom line?
 
rwsea
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 7):
If a route to europe with no tourists and no connecting traffic can work out of Portland it can work out of SALT LAKE CITY.

PDX has a stronger business base than SLC (consider Nike and Adidas, for example, which have been discussed as contributing to the success of this flight), and is also a larger metro area. PDX and the Pacific Northwest in general also has quite a bit of tourists. And despite not being a hub, PDX does have some feeder service on UX. Finally, UA can use the service to route some of the lower-yielding traffic away from SFO/LAX flights to FRA.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 7):
The thing that is holding dl back is the hot summer temperatures, the runway length, and they want a huge cash gurantee to start the route. i think dl is just waiting to get money because they know the city of slc will pay it. remember dl is locking down slc, atl and jfk as THE hubs. those are the future of delta. its better to have the cvg fligths to europe out of slc than cvg they are mostly connecting traffic from the west anyway. eastern people can be routed thru atl or jfk.

I disagree - see my post above. I think the main thing holding the route back is simply that SLC and the mountain region doesn't have the demand for Paris flights to make them work. Also, DL has added so many new destinations that the AF codeshare arrangement becomes less and less important each year. As such, there is less demand to Paris to feed these flights.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:01 am

Imagine yourself for a moment, walking through CDG, passing aircraft going to BOS...JFK...MIA...LAX....ORD....PHL....IAH....then, out of nowhere, SLC. What's wrong with this picture? How does SLC think it can support a Paris flight? Or any European flight for that matter? Is the market really there to fill up that BizElite cabin on a consistent basis? I don't want to hear about tourists...tourists = low yield. I don't want to hear about connecting traffic from SFO/LAX/LAS/PHX/PDX/SEA...all of those cities have nonstop service to Europe. Do you think that SLC...with the help of some of the small Skywest cities in the region...generates enough traffic to support a service to Europe? I have my doubts. Perhaps i'll be proven wrong, but I don't see how this could work in any stretch of the imgination.
 
SESGDL
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:43 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 19):
Imagine yourself for a moment, walking through CDG, passing aircraft going to BOS...JFK...MIA...LAX....ORD....PHL....IAH....then, out of nowhere, SLC. What's wrong with this picture? How does SLC think it can support a Paris flight? Or any European flight for that matter? Is the market really there to fill up that BizElite cabin on a consistent basis? I don't want to hear about tourists...tourists = low yield. I don't want to hear about connecting traffic from SFO/LAX/LAS/PHX/PDX/SEA...all of those cities have nonstop service to Europe. Do you think that SLC...with the help of some of the small Skywest cities in the region...generates enough traffic to support a service to Europe? I have my doubts. Perhaps i'll be proven wrong, but I don't see how this could work in any stretch of the imgination.

SLC thinks it can support European service because it can, and DL thinks it can too. It's just a matter of aircraft availability and whether or not there are better routes for the aircraft, which there likely will be. But I definitely foresee DL giving SLC-LGW/CDG (most likely CDG) a try in 2008, whether it will work is anyone's guess.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
Well that might be true to a point, but at the same time, most of these cities already have one-stop service to Europe via SEA, MSP, LAX, or others. I don't understand why people from places like Southern California, the Bay Area, or Pacific Northwest could choose SLC as a connecting point when there are already multiple nonstops to Europe from these areas (and all have nonstop service to Paris as it is).

DL Elites would certainly fly from SFO, LAX, etc. to SLC to go to Europe, though there are AF nonstops. If the price is right, the times are good, and the miles are there, people will fly. It may not make money though.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):

RNO - LGW; would still require 2 stops as it would today. Could just as easily make one stop through SFO.

DL is increasingly servicing smaller western cities from ATL. Passengers can now travel with just one stop on DL from SEA, YVR, GEG (was this cancelled?), BOI, RNO, SJC, OAK, SMF, LAX, ONT, PSP, BUR, SNA, SAN, BZN, FCA, and JAC to ATL and hop on flights to over 25 cities in Europe. This does diminish the importance that SLC could have to Europe.

Jeremy
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 19):
Imagine yourself for a moment, walking through CDG, passing aircraft going to BOS...JFK...MIA...LAX....ORD....PHL....IAH....then, out of nowhere, SLC. What's wrong with this picture? How does SLC think it can support a Paris flight? Or any European flight for that matter? Is the market really there to fill up that BizElite cabin on a consistent basis? I don't want to hear about tourists...tourists = low yield. I don't want to hear about connecting traffic from SFO/LAX/LAS/PHX/PDX/SEA...all of those cities have nonstop service to Europe. Do you think that SLC...with the help of some of the small Skywest cities in the region...generates enough traffic to support a service to Europe? I have my doubts. Perhaps i'll be proven wrong, but I don't see how this could work in any stretch of the imgination.

...jealous poopsie?  Wink
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
MSYtristar
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 21):
...jealous poopsie?

Jealous? No. Realist? Yes. Although I support DL 100% these days, so if they can make good on SLC-Europe, good for them.
 
haggis79
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:18 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 20):
DL Elites would certainly fly from SFO, LAX, etc. to SLC to go to Europe, though there are AF nonstops.

why would they...? It's not that they don't have elite benefits on AF codeshare flights....?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:33 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 22):
Jealous? No.

Stop lying!
Yeah you are, and so am I... but c'est la vie  Sad
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 20):
DL is increasingly servicing smaller western cities from ATL. Passengers can now travel with just one stop on DL from SEA, YVR, GEG (was this cancelled?), BOI, RNO, SJC, OAK, SMF, LAX, ONT, PSP, BUR, SNA, SAN, BZN, FCA, and JAC to ATL and hop on flights to over 25 cities in Europe. This does diminish the importance that SLC could have to Europe.

Keep in mind Jeremy that some of the places mentioned are seasonal. YVR, BZN, FCA and even GEG & BOI come and go depending upon the time of year. Some like YVR especially need year around service to ATL since it offers good alternative Caribbean connections as well as U.S. eastern seaboard connections.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 18):
PDX has a stronger business base than SLC (consider Nike and Adidas, for example, which have been discussed as contributing to the success of this flight), and is also a larger metro area.

Not really that much larger. The Willamette Valley and the Wasatch Front have similar population figures of being roughly 2.1-2.6 million people. PDX is larger than SLC, but not to the degree that DEN or PHX are. Nike & Adidas might require many to travel abroad, but the biggest travelers in both PDX and SLC are the software developers and programmers. I've flown this past year to PDX, SEA and YVR multiple times and it seams most of the PAX around me are involved somehow some way in the computer processor chip or software systems. Intel is VERY big in both, especially PDX.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 19):
Imagine yourself for a moment, walking through CDG, passing aircraft going to BOS...JFK...MIA...LAX....ORD....PHL....IAH....then, out of nowhere, SLC. What's wrong with this picture? How does SLC think it can support a Paris flight? Or any European flight for that matter? Is the market really there to fill up that BizElite cabin on a consistent basis? I don't want to hear about tourists...tourists = low yield. I don't want to hear about connecting traffic from SFO/LAX/LAS/PHX/PDX/SEA...all of those cities have nonstop service to Europe. Do you think that SLC...with the help of some of the small Skywest cities in the region...generates enough traffic to support a service to Europe? I have my doubts. Perhaps i'll be proven wrong, but I don't see how this could work in any stretch of the imgination.

While I see your point, your jargon comes out that SLC is in the same hicks-ville league as BOI  snaggletooth  !
There are a number of rust-belt cities like PIT that had Europe flights once upon a time, but have had their market growth stagnate to the point that they became money losers. While some might question the market size and demography of SLC, it is moving upward rather than stagnating or losing as some places in the northeastern states or upper midwest are doing. I think beyond the marquee of having a Europe flight, I think DL simply wants to continue as the predominant carrier and not lose out as bi-laterals between countries or regions, especially the EU take on a different appearance. SLC is perceived as an up and up market that is transitioning into a much larger urban area than many realize that it is. It does after all support an NBA team (the same as PDX).  twocents 
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:28 pm

With Delta expanding long range operations out of ATL, growing its JFK transatlantic gateway, mantaining tranatlantic service out of CVG, rumored to be considering more longrange flights out of LAX, and supposedly considering a latin american gateway out of FLL (plus the odd rumor about new long range services out of BOS and/or MCO), is it realistic to think that DL will ALSO risk opening SLC-Europe nonstops in the near-term future?

1. Does DL have aircraft to run these proposed routes? The 772LRs and ex-TW/AA 752s can only handle so much expansion.....where is DL going to come up with 767s to run these potential routes. I know that most expect huge DL aircraft orders just as soon as DL says goodbye to the bankruptcy court, but its gonna take a while until those aircraft are delivered to DL even if these orders materialize as expected.

2. As pointed out, SLC is a good hub to distribute traffic travelling to/from the western US, and has taken on increased importance in the DL network since DL's DFW hub operation was phased out....but does SLC have enough O&D traffic and enough premium traffic to make these flights work? We are now talking about the New Delta, an airline which does not have much interest in flying airplanes filled with low fare passengers travelling LAX-SLC-CDG....the New Delta actually wants and needs to make money.

3. Back in the early 1990s, when DL first took over the PA tranatlantic operation, many thought that SLC-FRA (where DL then had its European hub) was a given......and it never happened. While that was then, and this is now, and many things have changed, I still do not believe that DL seriiously thinks that there is money to be made with SLC-Europe flights, and now that DL is expanding its horizons....there are probably better opportunities elsewhere.
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:31 pm

Honestly, I think Delta would be able to make more money flying Ft. Lauderdale-Paris than Salt Lake City-Paris. Not that I think they would, I just think it would be a better oppurtunity for them.
a.
 
eva777sea
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:08 pm

Like pretty much everyone on this thread has stated, where is the O&D going to come from to support the flight, paticularly the premium pax?

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 25):
Not really that much larger. The Willamette Valley and the Wasatch Front have similar population figures of being roughly 2.1-2.6 million people. PDX is larger than SLC, but not to the degree that DEN or PHX are. Nike & Adidas might require many to travel abroad, but the biggest travelers in both PDX and SLC are the software developers and programmers. I've flown this past year to PDX, SEA and YVR multiple times and it seams most of the PAX around me are involved somehow some way in the computer processor chip or software systems. Intel is VERY big in both, especially PDX.

2.6 is stretching it and it is actually very close to DEN.
 
cba
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:52 pm

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 1):
I think the 763 would really struggle to get out of SLC on a hot summer day for CDG......Probably for pax and cargo the AF A340 is a better bet



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 4):
but I guess a 764 doesn't have the range

At 4400nm, CDG-SLC is well within the range of both the 763ER and 764ER. The A343 is somewhat underpowered, whereas both 767 variants are twins and have a higher thrust to weight ratio, so it would actually be harder for the A340 to get off the ground fully loaded during the summer. The perfect planes for the route from a technical standpoint would be the 777 or A332, however I doubt that AF will start this flight, and there's no way that DL will commit a 777 to this route.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
Flights from SLC to CDG/LGW can also benefit from connecting pax, not just O&D.

Ok, but where are these people going to originate? The smaller markets in the north west mentioned earlier are not going to provide more than a trickle of passengers for this flight. People on the west coast could just as easily fly to LAX, SFO and now SEA and connect to Air France. They could also just as easily fly through ATL, or use another Skyteam partner and connect through DTW, EWR or IAH on NW and CO. Opening a SLC-CDG flight does not really open up any new connection possibilities.

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 9):
besides, I just prefer AF over DL on intercontinental flights... imho they have a much better service

 checkmark 

AF's Tempo (long haul Y product) is light years ahead of DL's long haul economy.
 
jkudall
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:36 pm

I knew the moment I saw the title of this thread there were going to be a handful of posts in here from people who have put SLC down over the years and always said "this will never happen in SLC" only for it to happen.

If you go back just a few years ago from today and if someone were to tell you SLC would have nonstop service to more destinations than any other western US hub, have DL mainline flights to OGG, MEX, GDL, CUN, PVR, SJD, and end up being DL mainline's second largest hub, can you honestly say that person would not be considered crazy to say something like that just three or four years ago? Look how far SLC has come in just those few years. Do you really think SLC-CDG is that far-fetched? Especially since DL has said they are interested in it?

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 28):
2.6 is stretching it and it is actually very close to DEN.

It actually isn't stretching it.

Counties within 1.5 hrs drive of SLC (and their populations):
Salt Lake County: 948,172
Utah County: 443,738 (approx 35min-1 hr south of)
Davis County: 268,187 (15-30 min north of)
Summit County: 35,001 (45 min-1 hr east southeast of)
Wasatch County: 18,974 (1-1.5 hr southeast of)
Weber County: 210,749 (40 min - 1 hr north of)
Box Elder County: 46,440 (1 hr north of)
Cache County: 98,055 (1.5 hr north of)
Tooele County: 51,311 (30 min-1 hr west of)
Juab County: 9,113 (1.5 hr South of)
Morgan County: 7,906 (1 hr northeast of)
Uinta County (Wyoming): 19,939 (1.5 hr east of)

Total of the counties listed above: 2,157,585

Do I have too much time on my hands? Well right now, yes.

Keep in mind those are only counties within roughly a 1.5 hrs drive of SLC. In actuality the people who use SLC airport drive in from much further distances than that (including from all over Utah, southeastern Idaho, southwestern Wyoming, Eastern Nevada and even parts of Colorado). Scheduled buses from Idaho Falls and Pocatello (and other places) arrive SLC airport on a regular basis for pax to originate here. Those population numbers (from census.gov) are also from 2005. Utah is one of the fastest growing states and the population has gone up since then. So when you add all these factors together, the 2.6 million estimate is pretty close if not higher. Also, SLC is the only airport with scheduled airline service out of any of the counties listed.

Quoting Cba (Reply 29):
Opening a SLC-CDG flight does not really open up any new connection possibilities.

I disagree. I think it opens up many more possibilities. It certainly reduces the amount of 2-stop connections to get to CDG. People who choose to fly DL (or code-share partners) to CDG or where ever will end up being routed through SLC as a connecting point just as people are routed through SLC going to other cities (SEA,ANC,HNL,SAN, etc) today.
 
Evan767
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:49 pm

O&D would come from Salt Lake Citians (?) going to Paris. I am sure that a lot of them would like to travel there...
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
flyorski
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:53 pm

I hope that DL does start SLC-CDG, it would open all kinds of cities from Europe and the west. I would definitely use this, and I do think that DL could do well.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 31):
O&D would come from Salt Lake Citians (?) going to Paris. I am sure that a lot of them would like to travel there...

Yes, the citizens of Salt Lake cant wait to get to Paris.....you are kidding?

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 32):
I hope that DL does start SLC-CDG, it would open all kinds of cities from Europe and the west

Which kind of cities are you talking about? What opportunites would SLC offer? Even with DL, connection possbilities are already available via ATL or CVG or JFK.....and in a few markets, UA via ORD is currently the better choice. The reality is that SLC- Europe does not add a whole lot to the DL system, and the result will be planes filled with pax travelling between California or Las Vegas and Europe looking for bargain fares....not a profitable venture.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 29):
The A343 is somewhat underpowered, whereas both 767 variants are twins and have a higher thrust to weight ratio, so it would actually be harder for the A340 to get off the ground fully loaded during the summer.

In perfect conditions yes, only problem is that operations are planned with technical difficulties in consideration.

Lord knows I'm no fan of quadjets, and I despise the A340 for everything that it's worth-- which isn't much.......... but that said, even the likes of me would have to admit that quads are often more suited for high-elevation airports due to the simple fact that they're less hobbled in OEI scenarios.

Quoting Cba (Reply 29):
The perfect planes for the route from a technical standpoint would be the 777 or A332

Again, you're taking generic performance and nothing else into account, which in a realworld situation just doesn't cut it.

Yes, the 777 is an overwhelmingly superior aircraft in nearly every application to the A340; and yes the A332's performance often grants potential for higher revenue procurement than does the 767; but one would also have to take other elements into account-- namely, in the case of the AF A332 vs. A343, the fact that the latter's configuration is tailored more toward leisure or lower-yielding small/medium markets than the former's.

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 31):
I am sure that a lot of them would like to travel there...

...I'm sure that a lot of people anywhere would like to travel to Paris.
The question is, are they willing to pay the amount of J and Y fares that the airline would need to justify placing a widebody on that route as opposed to somewhere else.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting Anthsaun (Reply 11):
LGW will do better than CDG.

No it wont..in fact I dont think any DL gateway does better to LGW than to CDG thanks to SkyTeam connection beyond CDG....THere will tons and I mean tons of double conencts
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 35):
THere will tons and I mean tons of double conencts

...which is an attribute that'd actually work against any such flight
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
eva777sea
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 30):
Keep in mind those are only counties within roughly a 1.5 hrs drive of SLC. In actuality the people who use SLC airport drive in from much further distances than that (including from all over Utah, southeastern Idaho, southwestern Wyoming, Eastern Nevada and even parts of Colorado).

Well you can say that for pretty much any major airport in the US...

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 35):
LGW will do better than CDG.

With all the skyteam connections in CDG, how could LGW possibly do better?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:53 am

There is precious little demand between SLC and CDG....I think less than AUS or even ABQ. I would expect AF to fly to DEN long before touching SLC, and there are not many unique ODs that DL can capture over SLC that they can't get over ATL or CVG, nevermind via other carriers over other hubs. And of those unique ODs, they probably won't fill a 763, nevermind anything larger.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 30):
have DL mainline flights to OGG, MEX, GDL, CUN, PVR, SJD



Quoting Jkudall (Reply 30):
and end up being DL mainline's second largest hub,

To be fair, most of that Mexican expansion is in response to F9 and SLC became the second largest hub after CVG was anihilated.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 30):
Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 28):
2.6 is stretching it and it is actually very close to DEN.

It actually isn't stretching it.

Counties within 1.5 hrs drive of SLC (and their populations):
Salt Lake County: 948,172
Utah County: 443,738 (approx 35min-1 hr south of)
Davis County: 268,187 (15-30 min north of)
Summit County: 35,001 (45 min-1 hr east southeast of)
Wasatch County: 18,974 (1-1.5 hr southeast of)
Weber County: 210,749 (40 min - 1 hr north of)
Box Elder County: 46,440 (1 hr north of)
Cache County: 98,055 (1.5 hr north of)
Tooele County: 51,311 (30 min-1 hr west of)
Juab County: 9,113 (1.5 hr South of)
Morgan County: 7,906 (1 hr northeast of)
Uinta County (Wyoming): 19,939 (1.5 hr east of)

Total of the counties listed above: 2,157,585

Do I have too much time on my hands? Well right now, yes.

Keep in mind those are only counties within roughly a 1.5 hrs drive of SLC. In actuality the people who use SLC airport drive in from much further distances than that (including from all over Utah, southeastern Idaho, southwestern Wyoming, Eastern Nevada and even parts of Colorado). Scheduled buses from Idaho Falls and Pocatello (and other places) arrive SLC airport on a regular basis for pax to originate here. Those population numbers (from census.gov) are also from 2005. Utah is one of the fastest growing states and the population has gone up since then. So when you add all these factors together, the 2.6 million estimate is pretty close if not higher. Also, SLC is the only airport with scheduled airline service out of any of the counties listed.

Actually, the 2.1 million figure is what I intended to be for SLC's catchment area, and yes you did the math!    As I pointed out in reply #25 above, there are a few too many a.netters that do put SLC in the "hicks-ville" league as if it were some BFE locality like BOI or a whole host of other small western U.S. codes. The other point I failed to mention is that both SLC and PDX are in a virtual dead heat for total O&D PAX for 2005 at roughly 11 million, the last year I readily have figures available for. While SLC isn't adding 125,000 a year as PHX is, they are adding enough that the Wasatch front population has in fact doubled in less than 20 years, and that hasn't gone unnoticed by many in the business world. It is a steady growth market that DL COO Jim Whitehurst has taken note of as well as his boss (Jerry Grinstein). In fact, if there are any casualties in the DL hub structure for Europe flights if they try one from SLC, it will likely be CVG since they are a more stagnant market for growth much as PIT has been in the HP+US system. While I agree that CDG isn't the best form an O&D standpoint, it is doable and could catch on even more than the doom-sayers think. But that said, I think LGW would do considerably better if it could be allowed. At the very least this noise says SLC needs to be mentioned in any forthcoming bi-laterals with the E.U. and the U,K. If any current bi-laterals can't allow SLC-LGW on DL, then i think it is safe to assume BA might just be missing the plane (no pun intended!)

[Edited 2007-03-10 18:10:11]

[Edited 2007-03-10 18:11:46]
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WesternA318
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 4):
but I guess a 764 doesn't have the range and otoh I doubt AF is going to start this route.... but still I'd really like to see an AF 332 IF this route happens... one can dream...

I honestly would rather see the A332 here (something new, and my fave widebody) as well...

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
I'd gladly welcome an SLC-LGW flight.

Same here, just wish it was on CO metal (One can indeed dream)...

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 34):
Lord knows I'm no fan of quadjets

But Concorde...isnt the Concorde a quad?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
WesternA318
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 4):
but I guess a 764 doesn't have the range and otoh I doubt AF is going to start this route.... but still I'd really like to see an AF 332 IF this route happens... one can dream...

I honestly would rather see the A332 here (something new, and my fave widebody) as well...

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
I'd gladly welcome an SLC-LGW flight.

Same here, just wish it was on CO metal (One can indeed dream)...

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 34):
Lord knows I'm no fan of quadjets

But Concorde...isnt the Concorde a quad?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:07 am

of course if the EU and US sign an open skies deal, SLC service would be to LHR which would undoubtedly be much more valuable.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 37):
With all the SkyTeam connections in CDG, how could LGW possibly do better?

The latest figures I've heard are that SLC-CDG is about roughly 20,000 O&D PAX per year and SLC-London (LGW/LHR) as over 40,000 PAX per year.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Humberside
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 43):
of course if the EU and US sign an open skies deal, SLC service would be to LHR which would undoubtedly be much more valuable.

I think SLC would be low priority for LHR service though. I imagine DL would start 2/3 daily ATL/JFK flights and once daily CVG before thinking about SLC. And with LHR access they may even consider LAX-LHR

For European service, I think CDG would be a better bet wth AF's hub to provide connections at both ends
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 45):
and once daily CVG before thinking about SLC. And with LHR access they may even consider LAX-LHR

If such ever reached fruition I agree they'd go for LAX before SLC, but CVG is a stagnant market for them, and I think SLC would get the nod over them, IF such a thing ever materialized.
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EXAAUADL
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 29):
At 4400nm, CDG-SLC is well within the range of both the 763ER and 764ER. The A343 is somewhat underpowered, whereas both 767 variants are twins and have a higher thrust to weight ratio, so it would actually be harder for the A340 to get off the ground fully loaded during the summer. The perfect planes for the route from a technical standpoint would be the 777 or A332, however I doubt that AF will start this flight, and there's no way that DL will commit a 777 to this route.

Interesting because when I was at UAL, it was UA's 777 that had problems flying DEN-FRA, not LH's A340

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 36):
...which is an attribute that'd actually work against any such flight

Totally incorrect.....ORD-FRA, DTW-AMS, ATL-CDG are all highly profitable and are all full of double connects...you see airlines, especially with joint ventures, prefer OD fares, not simply segment fares. Their whole Rev Mgmt systems are set up based on OD, not segment

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 37):
Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 35):
LGW will do better than CDG.

With all the skyteam connections in CDG, how could LGW possibly do better?

Youre correct, i mistyped
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 46):
If such ever reached fruition I agree they'd go for LAX before SLC, but CVG is a stagnant market for them, and I think SLC would get the nod over them, IF such a thing ever materialized.

No they wouldn't. As "stagnant" as CVG is, Cincinatti has more demand to London than Salt Lake City, and provides more connections through their hub.
a.
 
mtsubshe
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RE: DL: Still Interested In SLC-CDG In 2008, LGW?

Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:44 am

how come there is no flight from Atlanta to LHR, even BA flies to LGW from ATL