PEET7G
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IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:15 am

Anyone have any detailed know-how on the economics and performance data of some Russian planes, especially the IL96? What I mean we always have discussions and comparisons with the B and A products, but never have I seen reasonable data nor discussion of the same with this beautiful bird. Things like cargo, and standard containers, take-off performance, payload economics, galley servicing.... things that we pretty much know about the 777, 747, A330, etc. Is there any downloadable detailed characteristics data sheet anywhere like there is for the A and B products? I simply can not get enough of russian metal...  Silly
Peet7G
 
EI321
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:25 am

These kind of figures would be hard to find, I can imagine. But the IL96 is almost definitly less efficient than its Boeing or Airbus counterparts, but obviously less expensive to aquire also.
 
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OA260
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting PEET7G (Thread starter):
I simply can not get enough of russian metal...

I love the IL96 also. I wish we saw more of them .
 
EI321
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
Quoting PEET7G (Thread starter):
I simply can not get enough of russian metal...

I love the IL96 also. I wish we saw more of them .

It would be great to see a modern Ilyushin widebody twin based on the fuselage. I wonder have they any serious design studies for one. Obviously it wont happen now that the 787 and A350XWB are around.
 
CJAContinental
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:44 am

For a start, the engines on the il-96 are a complete exageration of the hair dryers you would see on an A340-200/300, its equivalent. The extremely low bypass ratio means this bird gobbles up lots and lots of fuel. As for the shape of the aircraft, the pitch of the wing, long distance efficiency, then I'm not sure. Put some new engines on the il-96, and it would make a massive difference I think.
Work Hard/Fly Right.
 
EI321
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:53 am

Its cruising speed of .80 mach does not help matters either.

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 4):
For a start, the engines on the il-96 are a complete exageration of the hair dryers you would see on an A340-200/300, its equivalent. The extremely low bypass ratio means this bird gobbles up lots and lots of fuel.

Which engines do you men, there is the Aviadvigatel PS-90 & P&W2337 on different versions.
 
Rj111
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 4):
Put some new engines on the il-96, and it would make a massive difference I think.

The Il-96M has PW2043s.

Or 2337s even.

[Edited 2007-03-12 00:03:23]
 
PanAm747
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:22 am

Quote:
The extremely low bypass ratio means this bird gobbles up lots and lots of fuel.

Unfortunately so, but considering the challenges of operating aircraft in an environment such as Russia, I would bet the Russian aircraft are extraordinarily tough and durable.

Most Russian passenger aircraft have been designed with extra strength landing gear built into the wings to spread the load on gravel runways. I'm not sure about the IL-96, but even if not, I would imagine it is still a product of this school of thought.

Wasn't there a thread a while back about a video of an IL-96 taking off at Phuket? And the loud howl as the low-bypass ratio engines struggled to get the plane airborne in time?
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
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LTU932
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:04 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 6):
The Il-96M has PW2043s.

Correct, but AFAIK, not a single one IL-96M with PW2000 engines was sold.

I don't know if Ilyushin still offers the IL-96M (aka IL-96-400) and -96T (T for freighter model) with PW2000s, but I believe they also offer it with PS-90 engines, probably to make it more attractive for Russian carriers and others who can't afford to buy it with Western engines.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
Wasn't there a thread a while back about a video of an IL-96 taking off at Phuket?

I'd like to know where to find it. For now, here's a vid of an IL-96 taking off from PRG.  Wink

http://flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_I..._Aeroflot_Aviation_Video-1503.html
 
Lumberton
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
Wasn't there a thread a while back about a video of an IL-96 taking off at Phuket?

I remember one about an IL-86; used the entire runway!
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
KL808
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:22 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
Wasn't there a thread a while back about a video of an IL-96 taking off at Phuket?



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
I remember one about an IL-86; used the entire runway!

Here's a picture not a video of an IL-96 take off:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui



and IL-86


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Sam Chui




Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
afay1
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:23 am

No IL-86 or IL-96 production aircraft have P&W engines on them, although tests were done (w/ CFM in the IL86's case). And yes, the economics and range of both aircraft in extant are hopeless in everything except high density config. However, new IL-96's are coming with an upgraded version of the PS90 engine, and combined with the much lower cost of acquisition, makes it a more viable option. From a purely butt-in-the-seat perspective, however, the IL-86 is a pleasure to fly!
 
ABpositive
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:11 pm

I think one of the big problems is the unavailability of global product support, which of course there is no point of having in place without a large enough customer base, which is hard to attract without a proper support... you get the message, a bit of a catch 22. So without a decent capital injection (e.g. government subsidies...) it'll be hard to see any serious contention to giants like A&B, as much as I'd like to see another aircraft manufacturer out there.
 
PEET7G
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:33 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
Most Russian passenger aircraft have been designed with extra strength landing gear built into the wings to spread the load on gravel runways.

You said it, as an old time frequent flier of the TU154s and TU 134s (well at least as long as they where in service with MALEV) I can say nothing beats the feeling of drag when those massive bogies fold out for landing! Those sounds and forces when them babies fly!!! During my last visit to Moscow I took an Aeroflot TU154... when we came in for landing all those goosebumps came back and good old memories struck me when the massive bogies popped open!
Peet7G
 
EI321
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:20 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
Quoting RJ111 (Reply 6):
The Il-96M has PW2043s.

Correct, but AFAIK, not a single one IL-96M with PW2000 engines was sold.

Funding for the P&W version was pulled before it gained any momentum.
 
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OA260
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
I would bet the Russian aircraft are extraordinarily tough and durable.

Yeah the IL 86 I flew on a few years back was like a tank lol...but amazingly big inside like a living room. Was a cool experience. The interior is kind of Square shaped. It did feel like it was struggling to get off the runway though but maybe thats the way it works.

The Phuket photo is dramatic, looks like they just made it !!!!
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:23 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 3):
It would be great to see a modern Ilyushin widebody twin based on the fuselage. I wonder have they any serious design studies for one. Obviously it wont happen now that the 787 and A350XWB are around.

There used to be mention of a twin IL-98 project. I haven't heard about it in a while.

I believe from looking at the data here that in a 3-class configuration the IL-96-300 has 3 class seating of 235 which is comparable to the Airbus 330-200 in capacity. They also have very similar operating empty weights of about 121 metric tons. The IL-96 has atrocious range/payload specs though so I suspect that if they put the engines from the 787 and A350 onto a slightly upgraded wing they'd have a competitive product. In theory at least.
 
EI321
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 16):
The IL-96 has atrocious range/payload specs though so I suspect that if they put the engines from the 787 and A350 onto a slightly upgraded wing they'd have a competitive product. In theory at least.

Putting geNX type engines would not be enough in my opinion. The basic design is still too 1980s in terms of systems, cockpit, etc, not to mention the issues around product support around the world. If the RRJ cant sell well as a truely modern design outside of russia than its unlikely that the IL96 can

[Edited 2007-03-12 15:40:17]
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:36 pm

I assume you meant that it would not be enough.

You're right though. They'd be wise to use the cockpit from the RRJ or Superjet or whatever Sukhoi is calling it these days and make sure the MS-21 project is compatible as well. Full commonality of all three aircraft families would certainly help their business case.
 
IADCA
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 5):
Its cruising speed of .80 mach does not help matters either.

IIRC, that's faster than the A340 (at least according to Air France's numbers) and the 767, which both did decently well (somebody correct me if I'm wrong)...the fuel consumption, reputation (deserved or not) of Russian airliners, and lack of product support in all manners (logistics, spares, etc) seem to be the real problems.
 
r2rho
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:04 am

Love Russian aircraft, but we will have to wait some time until we see them flying regularly in the West (because yes, I do believe there will be a comeback of Russian aviation). Let's wait and see what happens with the Sukhoi Superjet. They've teamed up with Snecma for the engine and are in partnership with Alenia which guarantees them logistic support and maintenance in Western countries, one of the big problems Russian aircraft usually face. It could be an interesting competitor to the EMB 190. If it proves succesful, it would open the way for future widebody designs. But all in due time, you have to do things step by step.
 
Lumberton
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting R2rho (Reply 20):
They've teamed up with Snecma for the engine and are in partnership with Alenia which guarantees them logistic support and maintenance in Western countries, one of the big problems Russian aircraft usually face.

Snecma knows their stuff for sure and this should be a big plus for marketing this aircraft. However, will the Russians be willing to discount deeply in order to gain an edge over Embraer and Bombardier? After all, they are the new kid on the block and they are going to have to convince a few airlines to take a chance on them. A good way to ease the fear is with a great deal up front.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:58 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 21):
After all, they are the new kid on the block and they are going to have to convince a few airlines to take a chance on them. A good way to ease the fear is with a great deal up front.

Many premier airlines have already showed a huge interest, so no convincing is really necessary.

Aeroflot777
 
Lumberton
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:35 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 22):
Many premier airlines have already showed a huge interest, so no convincing is really necessary.

You and I can "show interest". Question is, will they buy? Nothing like incentives to persuade. Remember "money talks and"...well, something else "walks".  Wink
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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autothrust
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:53 pm

Quoting IADCA (Reply 19):
IIRC, that's faster than the A340

Totally wrong, that has been discussed to death, most airlines fly the A340 at mach 0.82 ~ 0.83

Would like there would be more IL96 flying around, such a grace and loud. (love loud planes) Big grin
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A342
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:19 pm

Quoting Afay1 (Reply 11):
No IL-86 or IL-96 production aircraft have P&W engines on them, although tests were done (w/ CFM in the IL86's case).

I'm quite sure you got that wrong. The IL-96M with P&W engines actually flew, the IL-86 with CFMs didn't.

Data about the IL-96 can be found here:

http://www.ifc-leasing.com/en/il-96.php
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
WSOY
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 24):
(love loud planes)

The IL-96 is an ICAO chapter 3 airplane, the IL-86 a chapter 2 airplane.
Noise certification database: http://noisedb.stac.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
afay1
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:39 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 25):
I'm quite sure you got that wrong. The IL-96M with P&W engines actually flew, the IL-86 with CFMs didn't.

-I didn't say it never flew, I am saying it never made it into production and the engines were removed a long time ago (in 1997 I believe). Incidentally, I would be interested to see photographic proof of the P&W version in the air as I doubt that happened either (but I could be wrong). The IFC website could use an overhaul, but that is a separate matter...
 
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LTU932
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:47 am

Quoting Afay1 (Reply 27):
Incidentally, I would be interested to see photographic proof of the P&W version in the air as I doubt that happened either (but I could be wrong).


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dmitry Petrochenko
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Vercruijsse

It's an IL-96T though (which is basically the same IL-96M/-400, only built as a freighter model).

Here a picture of the IL-96M/T's flightdeck, which is equipped with Collins avionics (although I believe the -400 model will be sold with Russian built avionics, correct me if I'm wrong though).

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrei Pechenkin

 
AC777LR
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:05 pm

Having flown in one to Cuba, I would say its a pretty comfortable aircraft. I thought it would be loud but I found it quite plesent. I reminded me of the A340 in a way, I wouldn't hesitate to fly on one again.
Member since April 2000
 
afay1
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:18 pm

Gotcha, I had forgotten that I myself may have seen it at MAKS. I know there were some EX-IM bank difficulties and the engines and avionics were repo'd, anybody know exactly when? In any case, according to flight international, there was only ever one plane so equipped and never used commercially. New versions, as aforementioned, are PS90-A powered.
 
aviopic
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 28):
which is equipped with Collins avionics

This is indeed a Rockwell Collins FMP and if you compare it with this:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Willem Honders


You will see a "certain" similarity  Wink

Right after the development of the Fokker AFCAS my friends from the US and UK left to Russia for the IL96.
We must be talking '85 -'87 or so.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
IADCA
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 24):
Totally wrong, that has been discussed to death, most airlines fly the A340 at mach 0.82 ~ 0.83

Yeah, sorry about that, I was looking at the wrong line of the chart. I believe the point stands for the 767, although the fuel savings on twinjets more than makes up for the speed. As for it being discussed to death, I've only been around here three weeks or so, so I apologize.
 
airliner777
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting AC777LR (Reply 29):

I have to agree with you. In fact, I love this picture..  yes 


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Kryst




Regards,
Airliner777
 
PEET7G
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:43 pm

OK, now back to the original question  Smile

Does any one have something about their operational environment? Gate compatibility, Cargo hold capacity, what type of containers are used and in what configuration and things like that... perhaps some performance charts and seating config maps or anything...
Peet7G
 
A342
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 34):
Does any one have something about their operational environment? Gate compatibility, Cargo hold capacity, what type of containers are used and in what configuration and things like that... perhaps some performance charts and seating config maps or anything...

Go to the link I provided in reply 25. Almost everything you want is there.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Superfly
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:28 am

When the embargo on Cuba is lifted, I hope Cubana keeps there IL-96s and fly them here to the United States.
I wish Aeroflot still flew them here.
The IL-96 is a beautiful aircraft.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Lumberton
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 36):
I wish Aeroflot still flew them here.

IIRC, they just ordered 6 cargo versions. Maybe we'll see those here?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
A342
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 37):
IIRC, they just ordered 6 cargo versions. Maybe we'll see those here?

No, the additional order for 6 aircraft was for the pax version.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 3):
It would be great to see a modern Ilyushin widebody twin based on the fuselage. I wonder have they any serious design studies for one. Obviously it wont happen now that the 787 and A350XWB are around.

With Aeroflot's impending order for 22 A350XWB's and the Russian investment bank's purchase of (up to) 6% of EADS combined with the consolidation of Ilyushin, Tupolev and Yakovlev resources, I think we'll find that your wish will come true in the form of sizable Russian participation in the new Airbus twin.

IMHO of course
Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
Lumberton
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 38):
No, the additional order for 6 aircraft was for the pax version.

This says cargo....
http://www.kommersant.com/p747749/Cargo_Airlines_Fleet/

Quote:

Aeroflot Cargo has entered talks with the Ilyushin Finance Co. leasing company to acquire six Il-96-400T cargo aircrafts, Andrey Goryashko, director general of Aeroflot Cargo, a subsidiary the Aeroflot passenger airline, told reporters on Monday. This jet with the capacity of 92 metric tons has not as yet been certified, and its price is estimated at $60 million. Aeroflot Cargo currently runs nine DC-10s and is soon to receive three MD-11s. The first three Il-96s may be delivered in the first half of 2008.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
PEET7G
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 38):
No, the additional order for 6 aircraft was for the pax version.

What is the delivery schedule of these planes? And are there other orders awaiting delivery?

Quoting A342 (Reply 35):
Go to the link I provided in reply 25. Almost everything you want is there.

Great infos there, thanks! Now anything on the cargo side? About the containers and how they use it them in the bely?
Peet7G
 
A342
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:02 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 40):
This says cargo....

Well, those are not ordered yet. IIRC SU recently confirmed the follow-up order for 6 pax IL-96-300, but I'm not sure.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 41):
What is the delivery schedule of these planes? And are there other orders awaiting delivery?

I don't know that. There are outstanding orders for the IL-96-400T (Volga-Dnepr) and other cargo airlines, maybe also one or two Cubana -300s.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 41):
Now anything on the cargo side? About the containers and how they use it them in the bely?

Do you happen to need glasses ?  Wink It's also on that site.

Quoting Ilyushin Finance:
18 containers LD-3 and crew rest room are positioned on the lower deck. (-300)

IIRC the versions with the longer fuselage can carry 32 LD-3 containers on the lower deck.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
PEET7G
Topic Author
Posts: 468
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RE: IL96 And Economics

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 42):
Do you happen to need glasses ? It's also on that site.

Well I guess I am as dumb as I can get.... as been reading that site and saving the data... somehow it slipped my sight... guess I was looking for some drawings... thanks for pointing it out! Big grin
Peet7G

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