BoomBoom
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The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:50 am

An article from the Times (UK). Boeing is in talks with customers to ascertain what they want in a 737 replacement and confirms that it will be a composite fuselage. The rumored 2-fuselage approach is still very much alive:

Quote:
The 737 is on its ninth variation, but, at heart, is more than 40 years old. It is also under pressure from Airbus’s newer A320, and Boeing has decided that the 737 needs an overhaul.

The Times understands that two early prototypes have been drawn up: a wider, twin-aisle version and a shorter, single-aisle jet. These have been dubbed Fat Boy and Little Boy.

There remains a big market for smaller city-hopper flights and Boeing is unlikely to leave this to Airbus or Bombardier and Embraer, which have traditionally built sub100 seat aircraft. A second, shorter 737 with up to 150 seats could therefore be launched to fill this gap.

Doug McVitie, of Arran Aero-space, said of the 737: “Airlines love this plane and Boeing has to keep that interest.”

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...ors/engineering/article1499824.ece
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NAV20
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:00 pm

In business terms Boeing are in such an INCREDIBLY strong position. Positive cash flow assured for years, all-composite fuselage technology close to being proven out, every existing and 'under-development' model selling well, R & D resources soon to be freed up as the 787 moves into the assembly/testing stage.......

Even if they could solve the 'political interference' problem tomorrow, what on EARTH can Airbus do from here?

[Edited 2007-03-12 05:02:37]
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WestJetYQQ
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:08 pm

I can't wait for this program to reach the production stage! It would be great to see Boeing advance another step ahead of it's competitors. This will give Boeing a strong edge against Airbus, who would be stupid to try to advance their 150-200 seat products, in the state that they are in.

Will This Aircraft look anything like the 737 has in the past, and up till now, or will it be completely revamped?

Cheers
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silentbob
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:14 pm

Quote:
Mr McNerney has also confirmed that the new 737, which will appear in the middle of the next decade,...

Assuming Boeing is on time any slips by Airbus could result in it arriving about the same time are the currently planned A350.

*Please note both are best/worst case assumptions and not any comment of expectation of said events.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 1):
Even if they could solve the 'political interference' problem tomorrow, what on EARTH can Airbus do from here?

I'm still hesitant to the idea of two fuselage diameters, but I will admit that a two-family approach to replacing the 737NG would put a tremendous burden on Airbus. They either scrap the A320 and follow Boeing or they risk being cornered into a substantially smaller piece of the market. I see NO way around that much...

If the 777 and 787 were the one-two punch, this sort of 737NG replacement could be punches three, four, five, and six.

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 2):
Will This Aircraft look anything like the 737 has in the past, and up till now, or will it be completely revamped?

If Boeing proceeds with the two-family replacement, the 737 heritage will almost certainly be abandoned.

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
An article from the Times (UK). Boeing is in talks with customers to ascertain what they want in a 737 replacement and confirms that it will be a composite fuselage. The rumored 2-fuselage approach is still very much alive:

The temp of news emerging about the 737 replacement, while still limited in detail, would suggest that Boeing is actively engaged in pre-launch studies and evaluations. I will place my hot-sports opinion now: no later than 2014, Southwest Airlines will be operating a new-generation of short-haul aircraft.  Wink
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:38 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
I'm still hesitant to the idea of two fuselage diameters, but I will admit that a two-family approach to replacing the 737NG would put a tremendous burden on Airbus. They either scrap the A320 and follow Boeing or they risk being cornered into a substantially smaller piece of the market. I see NO way around that much...

I could see a 2 fuse / 2 or 3 wing setup with common cockpit, APU, etc being a formidable seller. The 5 across small diameter fuse could cover the 120-170 pax range, with the smallest wing for short range, the middle wing for long range, and the large wing for very long range. The larger diameter (6 abreast and wider aisle) would use the middle and large wing to cover the 150 - 220 range of the current 737-800, 900 and 757 models.

The first model launched would be the one that WN wants. However, EIS for the full range of models would be over like 6 years. I could see also that the initial model overlay may be such that the 737 could remain in production if say the new models straddle the 737-700 or -800
 
kaitak
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:11 pm

Since Bombardier have a lot of experience in the field of short haul, small airliners, wouldn't it make sense for Boeing and Bombardier to work together on Bombardier's new C-series aircraft? This seems to be around the size of Boeing's proposed "little boy" model.

I'm sure that mutual co-operation could make this a very successful aircraft, with Boeing providing a cockpit design which would give the type commonality with existing (and planned) Boeing models.

(In any case, do Boeing and Bombardier not have some relationship; I thought Boeing had bought de Havilland Canada a few years ago; I don't follow Canadian aviation that closely, so I'm not clear how Bombardier came into the picture. I always associate them with Dublin buses!)
 
BWIA 772
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:24 pm

Can any of you remember sometime ago Boeing applying for a patent on a twin ailse jet under 200 seats. Check the following link

[Edited 2007-03-12 07:31:40]
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silentbob
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:28 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 6):
(In any case, do Boeing and Bombardier not have some relationship; I thought Boeing had bought de Havilland Canada a few years ago; I don't follow Canadian aviation that closely, so I'm not clear how Bombardier came into the picture. I always associate them with Dublin buses!)

Boeing sold DeHaviland to Bombardier.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
These have been dubbed Fat Boy and Little Boy.

For accuracy's sake, shouldn't this be "Little Boy" and "Fat Man."?


Regards,

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grantcv
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:58 pm

So 18 months from now Boeing is openly promoting the new B797 family. The B787 is in service and Boeing has resources freed up to devote to what will arguably be its most important offering for the next two decades or so. Airlines start lining up to buy this new aircraft - and B737 and A320 sales go soft as the world's airlines move on to new technology. What is Airbus to do - suggest reengining the A320? They will still have 5 years worth of A350XWB development to digest - adding one or two more projects would seem unrealistic. Why does it already seem that the A350 fiasco is going to repeat itself? Airbus seems to be playing the airliner game like my brother plays chess - thinking only of the current move.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:10 pm

One might note it took 4 years 1 month for boeing to go from a board decision to do the 737NG, to delivering the first 737NG to WN.

I'm expecting the 737RS to arrive no later than 2012 for WN, and as such will soundly beat the A350 program on EIS. More importantly given the lack of info on just what the A320E really entails and gives the customers... The 737RS might just match or beat it on being officially announced.
 
MakeMinesLAX
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:35 pm

I wonder if I can get any royalties for suggesting this approach six months ago....

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...d=3001997&s=MakeMinesLAX#ID3001997
 
HAL
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:44 pm

I think some of you may be missing the point. Boeing has two different ideas going around - the twin aisle and the single aisle - but I doubt they would go ahead and make both at the same time. They are just two different ideas circulating to see which one the airlines like best. My money would be on the twin aisle in shorter and longer versions to cover most of the segments already covered by the current 737. But with a new fuselage diameter, new length, new engines, and new systems and avionics, it won't be a new 737, but rather a new plane to fill the 737's (large) niche.

HAL
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par13del
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:02 pm

Based on past history - 737-6 and A-318 - I don't think a single width fuse would be very efficient, could they use the same wings? If one a/c is shorter, would not a seperate wing set be more efficient, than a larger wing essentially "downsized" for a shorter a/c? Probably better to have two seperate a/c as masters in their own domain rather than a jack of all trades, one fuse width for 2x2x2 seating - fat and "longer" and another smaller "shorter" 2x2 with wings optimized for each, could the same engine work for both?
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:04 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 13):
I think some of you may be missing the point. Boeing has two different ideas going around - the twin aisle and the single aisle

Boeings problem is that WN will want a 149 seat at 32-33" pitch single class arrangement, as will most of the other current 737-800 customers. They will also want it to go as far into the gap between the current 737 and 787, so it would not surprise me if they push it as far as 249 seats in a reasonable pitch. That alone is a huge huge range to cover. However there is the sub 737-800 market, which is where a second frame at 5 abreast comes in. replaces all the people who only have a 737-700 because the 737-600 is retarded, and the MD-80/DC-9 has as of yet no real replacement. So its not a case of they are thinking of one or the other, but how big should the big one be, and if they should make a DC-9/MD-80 replacement with some commonality to it
 
axio
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:31 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 9):
For accuracy's sake, shouldn't this be "Little Boy" and "Fat Man."?

Well spotted.....
I'm not sure naming aircraft after atomic bombs is the greatest marketing strategy out there....
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BrianDromey
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 15):
Boeings problem is that WN will want a 149 seat at 32-33" pitch single class arrangement, as will most of the other current 737-800 customers.

Just a small point, WN operate the 737-700, not the -800. The -800 fits 189 at the max. Im not sure many operators operate teh 737-700 because the 736 is a "retarded" aircraft. The market that boeing would be targeting with the five abrest would be sub-700, not sub -800.

Two wings and two diameters could really make sense, Boeing will have seen the success that Embraer is having on the 70-100 seat market with its E-Jets. What is also quite clear is that as that a single platform will not be able to repace the DC-9 AND the 757 in one go. Just a few short years ago the 757 would not have needed a successor, beacuse the 737-900ER would have done just fine, but with the move of 757s to trans cons and t/a routes the 757 WILL need replacement.

Maybe two wings might just do the trick?
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XT6Wagon
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 17):
Just a small point, WN operate the 737-700, not the -800. The -800 fits 189 at the max. Im not sure many operators operate teh 737-700 because the 736 is a "retarded" aircraft. The market that boeing would be targeting with the five abrest would be sub-700, not sub -800.

I'm very sure WN will be going for a larger aircraft than the 737-700 with the 737RS. 149Y gives them the same crew requirements, but 12 more paying seats. Lower trip costs than their current 737's mean the up size does NOT hurt them when loads are low like some of the routes. More over WN will have 737-300, 500, and 700 for a long while to come, so Its not like they won't have a couple decades to phase out the older and smaller planes. Though I bet the 500's leave ASAP along with the oldest of the 300's.

The fact that many if not most who operate both the 737-700 and 737-800 opt for only the 800 in later orders is telling where the 737 is best sized at.
 
PEET7G
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting Axio (Reply 16):
Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 9):
For accuracy's sake, shouldn't this be "Little Boy" and "Fat Man."?

Well spotted.....
I'm not sure naming aircraft after atomic bombs is the greatest marketing strategy out there....

Especially if you have a large Japanese market on the table  Yeah sure
Peet7G
 
dougbr2006
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:04 pm

Two different fuselages isn't that going to make development more costly and complex. The one tube fuselage seems to work with most aircraft designs why change or are there in reality going to offer two clearly different aircraft like 7x7 and 7y7.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:12 pm

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 20):
two clearly different aircraft like 7x7 and 7y7.

yes, you can offer two different aircraft that however have massive commonality. The major structures may be different, but sharing engine family, APU's, interior fittings, cockpits, and other major hardware makes it far cheaper to design, build, and operate the two compared to two completely different aircraft.

Think 757/767, but pushed even farther for commonality from just type rating to actual parts content
 
dougbr2006
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:21 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 21):
yes, you can offer two different aircraft that however have massive commonality.

Is there a danger here of Boeing creating a new category of jet between thw regionals and the 150-170 market, could we see more piloting issues here. Where would the little boy fit lets call the new cat "remain" regional/main then the pilots can decide to move or "remain" where they are. ooops now we have a terminorogy problem, HOUSTON, HOUSTON!
 
tsnamm
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:46 pm

Quoting Axio (Reply 16):
I'm not sure naming aircraft after atomic bombs is the greatest marketing strategy out there....



Quoting PEET7G (Reply 19):
Especially if you have a large Japanese market on the table

Bingo...I think new monikers are needed immediately! Besides the fact the connection of a plane being a bomb( literally and figuratively).
 
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SEPilot
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:03 pm

Quoting Axio (Reply 16):
I'm not sure naming aircraft after atomic bombs is the greatest marketing strategy out there....

They might just be figuring on blowing the competition away.
Actually, when you consider that the 787 is larger than the 767 this leaves 3 models to be replaced; the 737, 757, and 767. I can easily see how they would do better with 2 diameters to cover this range.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
LH452
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:37 pm

I recently read that Boeing had postponed the planned introduction of the 737RS to 2015/16. This puts a Boeing intro at about the same time as Airbus. I would think that this is a smoke screen since it's in their best interest to maintain a first mover advantage, unless new versions of the 787 requires more resources to respond to the XWB.

In any case, it's a message to P&W that Boeing doesn't need the GTF anytime soon.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting LH452 (Reply 25):
recently read that Boeing had postponed the planned introduction of the 737RS to 2015/16. This puts a Boeing intro at about the same time as Airbus. I would think that this is a smoke screen since it's in their best interest to maintain a first mover advantage, unless new versions of the 787 requires more resources to respond to the XWB.

In any case, it's a message to P&W that Boeing doesn't need the GTF anytime soon.

no there was some wild speculation about the timing, but boeing said 'when the engines are ready' and GE shortly after said definitely by 2012. The GTF is expected to be ready sooner than that, but as far as I know its not on boeings radar as far as "go/no go" for the project. RR has publicly stated they are investgating a triple spool engine, but have not given a time for its completion.

The real question is will Boeing push hard enough to get Y3 done by 2016 or so.
 
ATCGOD
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 10):
They will still have 5 years worth of A350XWB development to digest - adding one or two more projects would seem unrealistic.

Which is why I thought for sure they'd postpone the A350. It's a short term fix with long term consequences just to be "competitive". They should have given that market to Boeing, called it good and moved on. Now their problems are compounded.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 24):
They might just be figuring on blowing the competition away.

This might be the foot on the neck that Boeing's been looking for.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 26):
GE shortly after said definitely by 2012

It seems plausible. Do you have the source of this statement?
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FriendlySkies
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:51 pm

This sounds like a new 757/767 project, perhaps with even more commonality. Boeing would have an almost unbeatable line up with a narrowbody with 100-180 seats, small widebody 180-240 seats, medium widebody 250-320 seats, and large widebody 300-500 (or even 600) seats, all with common technology, very similar cockpits, etc...

It's almost as if Boeing is trying to reinvent Airbus' strategy with the 320/330/340/380 lineup, while bringing Airbus to it's knees at the same time.

If they do go for the two aircraft/high commonality approach as the 737/757 replacement, anyone else thinking it'll have two seperate designations as well (maybe 807 & 817?)?
 
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SEPilot
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 29):
If they do go for the two aircraft/high commonality approach as the 737/757 replacement, anyone else thinking it'll have two seperate designations as well (maybe 807 & 817?)?

Yes, I think they would. It would be kind of weird to have two different widths share the ame designation.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
ksupilot
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 7):
Can any of you remember sometime ago Boeing applying for a patent on a twin ailse jet under 200 seats. Check the following link

This could be a good approach for Boeing. The smaller model would be quite similar to the An-148 (a very nice aircraft that could be a hit if it weren't Russian) with a high wing.

The larger model could either use the high wing approach as well, or go with a lower wing...the patent shows both of these.

You do have to keep in mind that manufacturers take patents out on designs all of the time. However, this idea does look pretty close to what Boeing has been hinting at. The only thing in the patent that would change is the nose...I see it looking more 787 like, rather than the C-17 like nose in the patent.
 
airfrnt
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 1):

Even if they could solve the 'political interference' problem tomorrow, what on EARTH can Airbus do from here?

Don't assume that Airbus is out by any stretch of the imagination. Political interference has a benefit, it opens up the coffers of the governments in three ways - purchase of stock to keep the capital markets open (already happening as German banks and the Russian government steps in), launch aid (again, already standard operating practice) and direct capital infusions (which are being talked about). Money makes a difference.

As for this, I suspect that Boeing will take both concepts to the authority to offer stage. I suspect that like the A318 and the 766, the market simple will never materialize for the smaller option, even though carriers may clammer for it.

I also would not be surprised to see a carrier like AA or WN do a insanely huge order (250+) to get the ball rolling on this frame. If the customers are there, Boeing and the vendors will make it happen.

I do suspect that we will hear more about the launch early next year as the 788 development effort winds down. I think work on the 787-10 and this will commence once Airbus commits to the A350 to the point they can not extract themselves.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 32):
I also would not be surprised to see a carrier like AA or WN do a insanely huge order (250+) to get the ball rolling on this frame. If the customers are there, Boeing and the vendors will make it happen.

Good point. Add to the list CO and possibly DL who have older 737s. Across the pond, LH needs to replace its 737 Classics and A300s. BA will eventually need to replace its 757s. A two fuselage family concept will be tough for these carriers to pass by and vendors to avoid being aggressive.
Only the paranoid survive
 
DAYflyer
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting Axio (Reply 16):
I'm not sure naming aircraft after atomic bombs is the greatest marketing strategy out there....

Especially with JAPANESE customers like JAL, ANA, etc...

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 18):
Though I bet the 500's leave ASAP along with the oldest of the 300's.

Yes, they will retire these first and place an order of 100 or so to cover it.
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1337Delta764
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 33):
Good point. Add to the list CO and possibly DL who have older 737s. Across the pond, LH needs to replace its 737 Classics and A300s. BA will eventually need to replace its 757s. A two fuselage family concept will be tough for these carriers to pass by and vendors to avoid being aggressive.

Actually, DL has retired their older 737s, the 737-200s and 737-300s. However, Delta will be looking towards a replacement for their MD-88s, MD-90s, and 757s. Delta will likely indeed be a large customer for the 737RS.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
ksupilot
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:15 am

And further down the road, AirTran will want to replace their 717 and 737 fleet. Fat Boy and Little Boy will work perfectly for them.
 
kbdude
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 26):
no there was some wild speculation about the timing, but boeing said 'when the engines are ready' and GE shortly after said definitely by 2012

Is it possible for BOEING to EIS the 737RS by say... 2013?

can we speculate possiblities?

Program anouncement? late 2008?
Industrial launch? Mid 2009?
First flight? Mid 2012? (3 year development cycle)
EIS? Mid 2013? (1 year cert cycle)


When is the proposed EIS of the first A350XWB variant?
 
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Stitch
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 37):
Is it possible for BOEING to EIS the 737RS by say... 2013?

Probably. But will sufficient advances be on hand to make it worth EISing it that early?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 11):
One might note it took 4 years 1 month for boeing to go from a board decision to do the 737NG, to delivering the first 737NG to WN.

I'm expecting the 737RS to arrive no later than 2012 for WN, and as such will soundly beat the A350 program on EIS.

That would require a board decision in the next twelve months, which seems highly unlikely unless Boeing reveals the 737RS program in the next few months. I'm sure we will hear additional rumblings at the Paris Air Show, but I very much doubt Boeing is ready to officially announce the 737RS program.

Even after Boeing announces the new program, it typically follows that another 12-18 months are required to precisely define the airplane before a customer steps forward to launch the airplane. Heck, the 7E7 was announced in December 2002, but it wasn't until April 2004 that ANA placed their launch order. Likewise, a huge amount of work was done with 737 customers prior to the 1993 launch of the 737NG program.

The 737RS is coming, but I would change "no later than" to "no sooner than."
 
kbdude
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
Quoting Kbdude (Reply 37):
Is it possible for BOEING to EIS the 737RS by say... 2013?

Probably. But will sufficient advances be on hand to make it worth EISing it that early?

I agree. Engines hold the key to EIS. .

However, just imagine the pressure that would put on BOEING's NB competitors to match a similar EIS or fear losing large market share of the NB market (cash cow).
 
Areopagus
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RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:51 am

Quoting Axio (Reply 16):
I'm not sure naming aircraft after atomic bombs is the greatest marketing strategy out there....

Maybe they would get some positive attention if they took the anti-nuclear route and called it the "No Bikini Atoll".  duck 
 
Tangowhisky
Posts: 666
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:26 am

RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
But will sufficient advances be on hand to make it worth EISing it that early?

I believe that many 737 Classic (backlog) orders were converted to NGs when the NGs were launched. The same could be done here. In fact, I would not be surprised if there may be agreed language in recent NG contracts.

DFW brought up a good point last week that the 737NG sales are drying up fast. Sure airlines have ordered in large numbers, and the backlog is strong, for the NG but Boeing's cash machine (737NG) will need a replacement within 5 years to stimulate new demand and keep the growth rate. A lot of that demand can be converted into orders with an optimized dual family design covering the 100-220+ seat range of aging aircraft out there.
Only the paranoid survive
 
silentbob
Posts: 1540
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 41):
Maybe they would get some positive attention if they took the anti-nuclear route and called it the "No Bikini Atoll"

Or pander to pop culture and call them fat bastard and mini-me
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 6):
Since Bombardier have a lot of experience in the field of short haul, small airliners, wouldn't it make sense for Boeing and Bombardier to work together on Bombardier's new C-series aircraft?

No, the CSeries will be "old tech" compared to the 737 replacement. And BBD is an integrator... just like Boeing - so they compete, not complement each other.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 6):
In any case, do Boeing and Bombardier not have some relationship; I thought Boeing had bought de Havilland Canada a few years ago; I don't follow Canadian aviation that closely, so I'm not clear how Bombardier came into the picture.

No, Boeing and BBD do not. Boeing was "forced" to sell de Havilland Canada back to the Ontario Provincial Government. And "a few years ago" is actually 22 years ago!  Smile

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 8):
Boeing sold DeHaviland to Bombardier.

No, de Havilland was "gifted" to BBD by the Ontario government.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 14):
Based on past history - 737-6 and A-318 - I don't think a single width fuse would be very efficient, could they use the same wings?

With CFRP, even with a single width fuse the future 737 replacement would be much more efficient than the current 736 or A318.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 42):
DFW brought up a good point last week that the 737NG sales are drying up fast. Sure airlines have ordered in large numbers, and the backlog is strong, for the NG but Boeing's cash machine (737NG) will need a replacement within 5 years to stimulate new demand and keep the growth rate. A lot of that demand can be converted into orders with an optimized dual family design covering the 100-220+ seat range of aging aircraft out there.

Drying up fast? Only last week AA announced that there was no way that they could wait for the next 737 design before replacing their narrowbodies. So 737NG sales are going to be getting a big boost from just AA alone replacing their almost 300 MD80s (and some of their 140 757s). Now factor in DL with 130 MD80/90 (and replacements for some of their 120 757s). In fact, there are over 1,200 DC9/MD80/90 still in service with a majority requiring replacement before the new 737 would be available. Now also add in 737 Classic replacements from the still substantial aircraft in service (732 - 379: 733 - 937: 734 - 445: 735 - 364)... so between MD and Classics replacements alone (and some 752 replacements of the 818 in service), 737NG sales are going to continue clipping along just fine!
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1556
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 pm

RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 32):
Don't assume that Airbus is out by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree. Airbus will do what ever it takes to stay in the game. The 320 is Airbus' bread and butter and has a huge following of avid fans. Many of the airlines who fly the 320 will want an Airbus replacement and I am sure Airbus is planning for it right now. Lots of skilled engineers in Russia and elswhere could be rounded up to assist.

Airbus will find the money to match Boeing plane for plane in this category.

It could be that Airbus is being very coy -- with all the attention focused on its seeming inability to launch a new plane, the company may be setting us all up for a very big surprise, just when we least expect it. Airbus loves a good surprise!
 
silentbob
Posts: 1540
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 44):
No, Boeing and BBD do not. Boeing was "forced" to sell de Havilland Canada back to the Ontario Provincial Government. And "a few years ago" is actually 22 years ago!...

No, de Havilland was "gifted" to BBD by the Ontario government.

Thanks for the clarification, I was not aware the OPG's role.
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Axio (Reply 16):

Well spotted.....
I'm not sure naming aircraft after atomic bombs is the greatest marketing strategy out there....



Quoting PEET7G (Reply 19):
Especially if you have a large Japanese market on the table  

Well, it could be problematic if Boeing is working with Japanese suppliers like on the 787, but it should be said that there is no large Japanese market for narrowbodies.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8590
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 42):
DFW brought up a good point last week that the 737NG sales are drying up fast.

I did?  Confused

I think you have me confused with someone else.
 
BoomBoom
Topic Author
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:26 am

RE: The 737 Replacements: Fat Boy And Little Boy

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 7):
Can any of you remember sometime ago Boeing applying for a patent on a twin ailse jet under 200 seats. Check the following link

Looks like a

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 45):
Airbus will find the money to match Boeing plane for plane in this category.

Can they match the technology of a monolithic composite fuselage barrel, instead of sticking composite panels on an aluminum frame?

They are years behind Boeing in this regard.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...