jimyvr
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JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:39 pm

Japanese media reports on Monday (12MAR07), that A pilot, co-pilot and the flight attendant has received "critical warning" for taking photos in the cockpit in flight.

Incident occurred in December 2006, JL422 LHR -- KIX with 190 on board the 777. The 28 y/o flight attendant went into the cockpit and took a picture with the 45 y/o pilot when the plane was cruising at 10000m altitude over Siberia.

The flight attendant even sat on the pilot seat, touching the controlling bar as a pose when taking picture. Although the plane was on auto-pilot, but the digital camera could cause interference.

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20070312-00000022-jij-soci
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md80fanatic
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:53 pm

Interference? That's absurd.

I sat in the same seat (727 though) and a picture was taken with a huge flash bulb (large nasty uncontained EM field was emitted) with no effects.....none that would prevent me from making this post 39 years later.

If this was against airline policy.....or against controlling authority regulations, then their warning was justified.....but to attempt to pin a modern digital camera as a possible flight safety risk....is preposterous.
 
ktachiya
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:04 pm

Well in the article, it says that JAL explained that the digital camera could not cause interference (well, there are 190 pax in the back and probably more than a quarter of them had digital cameras).

Well, its ridiculous for the Japanese media to bring out every single small example like this............... Do they hate JAL or something?

And it is stated that it was taken with the captain's digital camera (so if the captain decided this was safe to do, then there should have been no problem since the flight is the captain's responsibility. And the strange part is, they did this when the flight attendant came to serve drinks to the FO and the captain.

And this article? What's the big deal? Besides, these people in the media are known for their naive knowledge about aviation.
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cinja
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:15 pm

English link can be found here: http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/nation...news/20070312p2a00m0na007000c.html

For those of you in the business, is this really an uncommon occurrence? Is the punishment (temporary suspension from flights) fair? I don't think this is a huge issue, but wonder how others would react?

She showed her colleagues these pics, which makes me wonder if this was an expressly forbidden situation and she just blanked or if there was pressure after the fact, seeing as how it was 3 months ago.

CinJA
 
fly727
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:21 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 1):
Interference? That's absurd.

I sat in the same seat (727 though)

Well., it's not really the same seat. Whatever a 727 was fitted with can't be compared with all the electronic stuff a 777 has...

Also, I don't see why it is absurd! If the aircraft and certain components' manufacturers plus the controlling agencies are saying that the darn devices must be turned off during flight, I see no point doing the opposite or trying to prove them wrong. We should leave the testing and regulations to those who actually know -scientifically- what they talk about.

Though I agree it sounds like an exaggeration of the media.

RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
jimyvr
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:25 pm

Oops, missed translation.

But I guess the point is, at the time you have extreme circumstances of in flight security, you're not really supposed to allow anyone including flight attendant drop in to the cockpit unless it is something extraordinary.
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jeffrysky
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:26 pm

Absolutely ridiculous: firstly, the article pinpointed no reason as to why the crew were reprimanded : re: the use of digital cameras or allowing a flight attendant to sit on the captain's seat. Secondly, there was this contradictory statement mentioning that the safety of the flight was not compromised - if so, then what actually drives the reason for this punishment?

As to the point about FAs being restricted from the cockpits, that's quite contrary to safe practice. Besides the fact it is an act of courtesy to offer coffee to pilots flying the long-hauls, it is a good check to see whether the flight crew are even conscious sometimes! .. given the long hours of flying and unearthly schedules.

The only reason I can speculate is that some officials may be concerned in light of the Aeroflot A310 crash enroute to Hong Kong when the captain's son fiddled with the controls. Otherwise, it may be likely that a resident b**** onboard decided to land one of her colleagues in hot soup.

[Edited 2007-03-12 06:31:35]
 
Norcal773
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:26 pm

Apparently, JL, NH and most Japanese carriers do not allow digital cameras while on the ground. This is per someone here on a.net and the FA won't let me use my camera in flight last week. Heck, the Japanese make most of the digital cameras out there so maybe they know something we don't.

This story would have been complete if they showed the pic of the FA.  biggrin 
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md80fanatic
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:26 pm

Quoting Fly727 (Reply 4):
We should leave the testing and regulations to those who actually know -scientifically- what they talk about.

I agree. That's why I decided to make my comment.
 
777ER
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:49 pm

Quoting Fly727 (Reply 4):
Also, I don't see why it is absurd! If the aircraft and certain components' manufacturers plus the controlling agencies are saying that the darn devices must be turned off during flight

JAL who is the legal owner of the B777, said in the article, that digital cameras being used in-flight DON'T interupt with the equipment onboard, so all this fuss over the digital camera being used is pathitic

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 5):
But I guess the point is, at the time you have extreme circumstances of in flight security, you're not really supposed to allow anyone including flight attendant drop in to the cockpit unless it is something extraordinary

The FA went into the cockpit during the meal/drink rounds
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TG992
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 5):
But I guess the point is, at the time you have extreme circumstances of in flight security, you're not really supposed to allow anyone including flight attendant drop in to the cockpit unless it is something extraordinary.



Quoting JeffrySkY (Reply 6):
As to the point about FAs being restricted from the cockpits, that's quite contrary to safe practice. Besides the fact it is an act of courtesy to offer coffee to pilots flying the long-hauls, it is a good check to see whether the flight crew are even conscious sometimes! .. given the long hours of flying and unearthly schedules.

I can confirm JeffrySkY's remarks. At Air NZ we have procedures for regular, scheduled contact with the flight deck to ensure everything's OK up there and we're regularly going in and out of the cockpit to deliver drinks, snacks, etc. On any flight that carries only two flight crew, an f/a has to enter the cockpit whenever one crew member needs to use the toilet (or leave for any other reason) and remain there until they return.

Photos are commonly taken in the flight deck of just about every airline the world over. I've seen some beautiful photos taken by our pilots of aircraft we pass during cruise, and I"m sure the act of taking the photograph wasn't the issue - however, given the Aeroflot accident in the 1990s where the Captain's son accidentally caused the plane to crash by putting pressure on the control column, perhaps letting the f/a touch the controls while the captain was out of his seat wasn't such a wise idea.
-
 
EMBQA
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:56 pm

I think the story is lost in translation. By ...interfearance... they mean the distraction of the camera and flash. Not an actual mechanical interfearance. If you want to pull your hair out in lost translation just read an MU-2 AMM. Some of the stuff in there will have you wondering what they really are talking about.
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aWombat
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:09 pm

I am personally not worried about the photos irrespective of what type of camera was being used. Unless you have an old 'box browny', it is electically powered producing electical noise.

What does worry, is having the F/A sitting in the seat with their hands on the controls. This reminds me of a Russian Airbus where the pilot lets his kids 'fly' the plane into the ground. Okay this might be excessively worded but as a passenger down the back, I don't mind people taking photos but I don't want unqualified people sitting in the chair while it is flying/ This is what the ground is for. 'Augering In' from that altitude don't not hurt..  Wink
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:31 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Japanese media reports on Monday (12MAR07), that A pilot, co-pilot and the flight attendant has received "critical warning" for taking photos in the cockpit in flight.

Minus the F/A, this happens every day in cockpits around the world. Don't really know why it's such a big deal. I guess the fact that FA sat was probably unnecessary but not a big deal, what could she do?
 
iairallie
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 5):
But I guess the point is, at the time you have extreme circumstances of in flight security, you're not really supposed to allow anyone including flight attendant drop in to the cockpit unless it is something extraordinary

That is so far from the truth. Pilots strictly speaking are the ones with the restrictions. They technically aren't supposed to leave the flight deck inflight unless it is for physiological needs, faa speak for potty breaks. FA's are encouraged to check in regularly with the cockpit see if they need anything to drink make sure everyone is allright. Pilots also encourage visits on long (especially night flights) to break the monotony.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
gh123
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:55 pm

What a load of crap - I've got a picture of me when I was about 3 or 4 years old in the captain's seat of a British Airways 747 when I was on the way to Barbados.

Paranoia, if you ask me......
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 2):
these people in the media are known for their naive knowledge about aviation.

That's a true statement.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 1):
What's the big deal?



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
I guess the fact that FA sat was probably unnecessary but not a big deal, what could she do?

Not knowing JALs policies I can only comment regarding my co. NO ONE is allowed in either front seat unless they are a qualified part of the flight crew. It even means the S/O (on 3 man jets) will not sit in the front seats. The rational being that there is no chance of something stupid happening when someone is pre-occupied with "entertaining". There was a time many moons ago when the S/O may get a little "stick time" but no longer. Did it hurt anything? Probably not. Unfortunately I've seen over the years that it's the 5% that ruin it for the rest by going one step further and having a problem. So policy is changed for the stricter. Yes we all take pictures but of course there's the right time for it. I know of a J/S that snapped a flash photo over the capt. shoulder just as the runway came into view on a CATII app. Not good.

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 15):
I've got a picture of me when I was about 3 or 4 years old in the captain's seat

Yep, that was then and this is now. When I was about 5 yr. I had an aunt that worked for Delta C & S (Chicago & Southern) and was going to take me on a trip and the capt said I "could help fly".
 
474218
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):

The flight attendant even sat on the pilot seat, touching the controlling bar as a pose when taking picture.

Please explain: did the flight attendant sit ON or IN the pilots seat and what is a pilots "controlling bar"?
 
airtran717
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 2):
And it is stated that it was taken with the captain's digital camera (so if the captain decided this was safe to do, then there should have been no problem since the flight is the captain's responsibility.

I can't speak for foreign carriers, but it is most definitely against FAR's here in the US. During flight, NO ONE but flight crew... in other words, the pilots... may occupy a pilot seat. Photo opps are fine on the ground, and at the gate. I agree the camera would not create interference. I have taken many a photo up there myself when sitting on the jumpseat. But the flight attendant should not sit in the pilot seat during flight.

717
 
jimyvr
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 17):
Please explain: did the flight attendant sit ON or IN the pilots seat and what is a pilots "controlling bar"?

Give me a break for forgetting what's that called  Embarrassment
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Morvious
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:13 am

Offcourse a camera won't intterupt systems in the cockpit but I can understand why they are warned.

3 people were not doing the job they were hired for, and that would give me a warning to if I did it. Not really news worthy if you ask me though.
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
airtran717
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 15):
What a load of crap - I've got a picture of me when I was about 3 or 4 years old in the captain's seat of a British Airways 747 when I was on the way to Barbados.

While I don't know your age. This was obviously pre-9/11. This is not 1977 anymore. Security has gotten tighter, as it should have. Unless you are a trained, certified crew member, the only time you should be allowed in the cockpit is on the ground, at the gate.

717
 
BA787
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:16 am

So I'm guessing all the A.net uploaders who get a picture while at cruising, (some of which are really amazing, especially the night time ones), especially the pilots, are going to get a slapped wrist from now on. I couldn't read the articel (something about language) but what sort of action wil JAL take, and is it really that major? Maybe the F/A sitting in the seat is OTT, but if the F/O is still in his seat, then it isnt really that major.

Its like the pilot going to the bathroom.

Its not as though the F/A is going to mess with anything, or be able to fly it (unlike an SU incident i remember)
 
airtran717
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 17):
Please explain: did the flight attendant sit ON or IN the pilots seat and what is a pilots "controlling bar"?

ON or IN, what's the difference? She sat in the seat or she sat on the seat. It's proper either way. And the controlling bar is most likely meaning the flight yolk. Dude, figure out that there is a language barrier and words are not always translated literally. Sheesh.

717
 
bphendri
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:23 am

The only thing that converns me with this, is the flight attendant being allowed to touch the yoke.

Rememeber the Aeroflot crash, where the captain let his children think they where controlling the plane while the autopilot was in command mode?
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 2):
so if the captain decided this was safe to do, then there should have been no problem since the flight is the captain's responsibility

Co. poicy ALSO dictates how the jet will be flown regardless of what the capt. may think. Otherwise 1000 capt.s can say what they think is safe.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting Morvious (Reply 20):
3 people were not doing the job they were hired for, and that would give me a warning to if I did it. Not really news worthy if you ask me though.

I agree, The people in the cockpit should behave in a professional manor and not be farting around with cameras and flight attendants. Fly the plane and leave the screwing around for when the plane is on the ground. Least this happen again


Date: 23 MAR 1994
Time: 00:57
Type: Airbus A.310-304
Operator: Aeroflot Russian International Airlines
Registration: F-OGQS
C/n / msn: 596
First flight: 1991-09-11
Engines: 2 General Electric CF6-80C2A8
Crew: Fatalities: 12 / Occupants: 12
Passengers: Fatalities: 63 / Occupants: 63
Total: Fatalities: 75 / Occupants: 75
Airplane damage: Written off
Location: near Mezhduretshensk (Russia)
Phase: En route
Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
Departure airport: Moskva-Sheremetyevo Airport (SVO/UUEE), Russia
Destination airport: Hong Kong-Kai Tak International Airport (HKG/VHHH), Hong Kong
Flightnumber: 593
Narrative:
The aircraft was en route from Moscow to Hong Kong at 10100m when, approaching the Novokuznetsk reporting point, the captain's daughter entered the cockpit. She was allowed to sit the left-hand seat while the captain demonstrated some autopilot features, using HDG/S and NAV submodes to alter the heading. The captain's son then took the left front seat. The captain intended to demonstrate the same manoeuvre when his son asked if he could turn the control wheel. He then turned the wheel slightly (applying a force of between 8-10kg) and held it in that position for a few seconds before returning the wheel to the neutral position. The captain then demonstrated the same features as he did to his daughter and ended by using the NAV submode to bring the aircraft back on course. As the autopilot attempted to level the aircraft at its programmed heading, it came in conflict with the inputs from the control wheel which was blocked in a neutral position. Forces on the control wheel increased to 12-13kg until the torque limiter activated by disconnecting the autopilot servo from the aileron control linkage. The autopilot remained engaged however. The aircraft then started to bank to the right at 2,5deg/sec, reaching 45deg. when the autopilot wasn't able to maintain altitude. The A.310 started buffeting, which caught the attention of the captain who told the co-pilot to take control while he was trying to regain his seat. The seat of the co-pilot was fully aft, so it took him an additional 2-3 seconds to get to the control wheel. The bank continued to 90deg, the aircraft pitched up steeply with +4,8g accelerations, stalled and entered a spin. Two minutes and six seconds later the aircraft struck the ground.


http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19940323-0&lang=en
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OlegShv
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 15):
What a load of crap -...
Paranoia, if you ask me......

 checkmark  that, and it seems like Japanese media doesn't have anything else to report.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:37 am

Let's see the photos!!!  camera   bouncy 
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VEEREF
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting BA787 (Reply 22):
but if the F/O is still in his seat, then it isnt really that major.

Actually, it still is major. It's not the matter of how many people were in their seats at the time. Not sure about the rest of the world, but in the US only the person qualified for that particular seat may occupy it during flight.
Sure, we all know nothing bad is likely to happen in the few minutes while the F/A is in the seat, but from a regulatory standpoint JAL has them dead to rights.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
PIA777
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:17 am

A digital Camera causing interference??? That is such bull.

PIA777
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VonRichtofen
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:34 am

Japanese F/A..... I'd like to see these pics! Big grin Big grin


Kris
 
iairallie
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 29):
Not sure about the rest of the world, but in the US only the person qualified for that particular seat may occupy it during flight.

I'd really like to see that FAR. This is the first I've ever heard it in 6 years in the industry are you sure it is not a company policy. I have sat in the CA/FO seat many times in flight while babysitting for a potty break (I don't touch any of the controls). None of the pilots have ever objected in fact they 99% of the time initiate it with a "take a seat". It can be very uncomfortable even for a shorter person like myself to stand in a smaller cockpit. If it is against the rules then I'll avoid doing it in the future.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
bphendri
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:22 am

I agree JAL has the cockpit crew dead to rights.

Very poor judgement all around. The fact of the matter is, their unprofessional behavor was not acting in good faith for the hundres of paid customers that where onboard that flight. Who excect the flight crew to conduct themselves in a professional manner at all times, but to do NOTHING that could endanger the safety of that flight.

With it being that cut and dry, I'm surprised that the only thing the media was concerned with is interferance from a digital camera
 
VEEREF
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 32):
I'd really like to see that FAR. This is the first I've ever heard it in 6 years in the industry are you sure it is not a company policy. I have sat in the CA/FO seat many times in flight while babysitting for a potty break (I don't touch any of the controls). None of the pilots have ever objected in fact they 99% of the time initiate it with a "take a seat". It can be very uncomfortable even for a shorter person like myself to stand in a smaller cockpit. If it is against the rules then I'll avoid doing it in the future.

It's a combination of FARs. Part 61- Pilot certification, Part 91- Operating Rules, Part 25- Aircraft Type Certification and an individual company's own policy.

The catch all however is FAR 91.13: Careless and Reckless Operation. A sort of "catch all".

It does happen everyday as you describe above. Most crews including myself have no problem with allowing cabin crew to sit in the seat while one of the pilots is taking a break.
Just be careful, if there is a company or FAA Inspector in the cabin who is having a bad day and happens to notice, things could get a little sticky as they would have little trouble caling out the crew on one of the above.

[Edited 2007-03-12 21:57:45]
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Morvious
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
Just be careful, if there is a company or FAA Inspector in the cabin who is having a bad day and happens to notice, things could get a little sticky as they would have little trouble caling out the crew on one of the above

Well, it won't be a problem if he is in the cabin. The door will be locked so he won't be able to see the F/A in the seat right? The F/A could also be just standing in the cockpit what is offcourse allowed. It would be a problem if the F/A is the inspector  Wink
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
N867BX
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 1):
I sat in the same seat (727 though) and a picture was taken with a huge flash bulb (large nasty uncontained EM field was emitted) with no effects.....none that would prevent me from making this post 39 years later.

You are only here to make this post because you beat the odds and are extremely lucky to be alive.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting Morvious (Reply 35):
It would be a problem if the F/A is the inspector

OR the F/O wants to move up a number and turns him in....It has happened before.
 
iairallie
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:15 am

In other words there is no FAR stating "During flight, NO ONE but flight crew... in other words, the pilots... may occupy a pilot seat." The FAR's you cited don't say anything about this.

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
It's a combination of FARs. Part 61- Pilot certification, Part 91- Operating Rules, Part 25- Aircraft Type Certification and an individual company's own policy.

The catch all however is FAR 91.13: Careless and Reckless Operation. A sort of "catch all".

Nothing careless or reckless about a crewmember (FA) sitting in the only seat available while waiting for the 2nd pilot to return. From what I've studied in my Aviation law class there would be no legal issues with a crewmember sitting in a pilot seat at cruise. Perhaps if that crewmember started screwing around with instruments (like thats going to happen) there would be an issue but a crew member could do that as easily standing. So maybe before you start making broad claims about US aviation rules you should have something to back it up with.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
scramjetter
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:30 am

Was she cute? What was she wearing?

 bigthumbsup 
 
VEEREF
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38):
So maybe before you start making broad claims about US aviation rules you should have something to back it up with.


Broad? No, there is no specific sentence in any of those regs. But you're right. Only been in aviation for 18 years and seen fellow crewmembers get violated for much lesser things, what could I possibly know about it?
Maybe you also missed the part where I said I used to do the same thing? A.Net at it's finest.
Fly safe.

[Edited 2007-03-12 23:59:08]
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
tootallsd
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:02 pm

RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 5):
But I guess the point is, at the time you have extreme circumstances of in flight security, you're not really supposed to allow anyone including flight attendant drop in to the cockpit unless it is something extraordinary.

Have you ever boarded a commercial aircraft? Every time a pilot / copilot leaves the cockpit, an F/A enters the cockpit and remains there until he /she sounds the all clear and requests re-entry.
 
Bellerophon
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:24 am

Tootallsd

...Every time a pilot / copilot leaves the cockpit, an F/A enters the cockpit and remains there until he /she sounds the all clear and requests re-entry....

As a general statement, this is rubbish.

It may have some validity if you are talking about two pilot crew aircraft flying under FAA regulations, but is far from correct regarding many other examples of commercial aviation.


VEEREF

Whilst I'm not an expert on FAA regulations, I do tend to agree with you that an FAA inspector would have something to say if he (officially) noticed such an incident.


Regards

Bellerophon
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:55 am

RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 42):
Whilst I'm not an expert on FAA regulations, I do tend to agree with you that an FAA inspector would have something to say if he (officially) noticed such an incident.

This is true, and it can even depend on the individual inspector. At a former airline we had a flight crew taxiing in after landing at XYZ. As they were taxiing in, the F/O was picking up the outbound ATC clearance as the turn was going to be short. As they shutdown at the gate they were greeted by an FAA inspector who wrote the crew up for violation of sterile cockpit. Sounds nitpicky because it happens everyday, probably hundreds of times a day. But technically the FAA inspector had them by the short hairs.

I took quite a bit of carpet dancing by the chief pilot to keep the crew from being violated, but they still ended up with letters in their files.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
tootallsd
Posts: 458
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:42 am

Hey Bullerephon: I fly several times a week. I have the good luck to sit in First Class on most flights. I'm only telling you what I see over and over on US and non-US airlines. So if you're saying that I'm a liar, be clear about it. But it is what I see several times on virtually every flight.

Regards
 
Baron52ta
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:52 am

RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 15):
What a load of crap - I've got a picture of me when I was about 3 or 4 years old in the captain's seat of a British Airways 747 when I was on the way to Barbados

You are talking pre 911 days when you could visit the flight deck .
As to the question of photos on the flight, there are many pics on this site taken during different phases of flight including final approach which is definately frowned on but you don't hear of anyone being suspended in those cases. Actually handling the controls with the autopilot on can disengage part of the auto-flight system depending on the autopilot fitted to the aircraft in question though.
 
iairallie
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RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 40):
Only been in aviation for 18 years and seen fellow crewmembers get violated for much lesser things,

But have you ever seen a Flight Attendant violated by the FAA (again maybe your company policy is more restrictive) for sitting in a pilots seat during cruise or the CA for allowing it? Doubt it because it is not against the rules.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
malaysia
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Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:57 am

Also I got photos of me in the jumpseat and F/O seat of a MH 747 on approach to ironically NRT in the 90s.
Big Deal. But I wish I had a digital camera then, cause Id have had a better quality shot. I had sadly a 35mm Vivitar haha
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:47 pm

Ladies and gentlemen, The bottom line here is co. policy.
You can sit here a post and post about whether it was safe or unsafe or ok or stupid but if it's co. policy NOT to do this (like mine) you're just asking for it. Whether or not there's a specific FAR addressing this it doesn't matter. VEEREF made a good and accurate point about how the FAA would look at it. AS VEEREF 's example illustrates the reality and I tolo know a couple of similar stories, one resulting in the capt. being terminated.
 
Sketty222
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:36 am

RE: JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit

Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:53 pm

I think that the whole issue here is the fact that the FA was sitting in the pilots seat and not the digital camera.

Quoting AWombat (Reply 12):
This reminds me of a Russian Airbus where the pilot lets his kids 'fly' the plane into the ground. Okay this might be excessively worded but as a passenger down the back, I don't mind people taking photos but I don't want unqualified people sitting in the chair while it is flying..

Im with you 100% on this one


Lee
There's flying and then there's flying

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