NW7E7
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Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:58 pm

Burmese python dies during move from Alaska

"Belinda was shipped via Delta Airlines in a box. According to vonKoehnen, everything went as-planned until Belinda got to Atlanta."

"They put her at the wrong gate and left her at the wrong gate for five and a half hours, outside...."

"VonKoehnen says several Delta officials have told her there's nothing they're going to do about her loss."


"According to the U.S. Department of Transportation, from May 2005 to January 2007, three animals flying Delta Airlines have died, and that's compared to 17 on Continental Airlines, nine on American Airlines and eight on United Airlines."

They should have at least put it inside. Has anybody ever had any problems of their own?

NW7E7
 
PanHAM
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:30 pm

Cargo has always been a stepchild at Delta, which is rather surprising for an airline that size.

I would not ship anything on DL and definately no life animals. Life animals need special attention and special handling and that was obviously not guaranteed at this airline.

I don't know if the shipper in ANC has used proper packaging, made sure that the box was labled on the outside marking "LIVE ANIMAL HANDLE WITH CARE" and instructions such as keeping the box in a sheltered envrionment at a certainj tremperature.

If not, the shipper is at fault here as well.
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ltbewr
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:31 pm

The transportation of pet animals (not service animals) on Commercial flights as cabin or checked luggage has become more difficult in recent years for their owners and airliners. As as result, we will see higher numbers of pet animals die during and to, from and connecting flights or people not bringing their pets with them. Pax are part of the problem too in that they cannot live without their pets with them at all times, perhaps unrealistic of the risks and bringing unusual animals (snakes, etc) as pets.
Increased security, allergy fears, more connecting flights exposing luggage transported animals to extreme heat, cold and trauma during loading and connections, the additional and insufficiently compensated costs of the special treatment needed and the increase use of lawsuits when things go wrong among other issues, are making some airlines to totally decline to transport pet animals. Pets that escape in the pax cabin or during handling (escaping from their cages when as luggage) had seemed to have increased with it's costly hassles and bad publicity. Other airlines are increasing the fees, not allowing the cargo transport of pets at certain times of year, being more selective as to what kind of pets can be with pax or as cargo or requiring all pet animals be transported as check luggage. The liquids limits on USA domestic and foreign flights to/from the USA means you may not be able to have enough water aboard into the pax area with you for your Fluffy or Fido. You have more crowed pax cabins that limit the room available for people to bring on their pets. Some LCC's have never allowed the transport of pet animals to reduce the costs including liability risks, hold down turnaround times and fares in turn.
To me, the pax transporting their pet animals on their flights is sadly becoming a thing of the past.
 
movingtin
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting NW7E7 (Thread starter):
"According to the U.S. Department of Transportation, from May 2005 to January 2007, three animals flying Delta Airlines have died, and that's compared to 17 on Continental Airlines, nine on American Airlines and eight on United Airlines."



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
I would not ship anything on DL and definately no life animals. Life animals need special attention and special handling and that was obviously not guaranteed at this airline

And yet you single out Delta!!?? Looks like they are doing better than the others!
 
PanHAM
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:19 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
The transportation of pet animals (not service animals) on Commercial flights as cabin or checked luggage has

This was not a pet animal. It was shipped from an "Animal rescue organization" to a Zoo. People shipping their pets by air should either do it as baggage, that means the least time the creaturs have to spend in the kennels. If that is not possible, they should use the services of a freight forwarder specialized in handling libe animals. That may cost a few bucks more for handling but you get the expert knowledge for that money which may save the life of your dog, cat or pet elefant.


Quoting Movingtin (Reply 3):

And yet you single out Delta!!?? Looks like they are doing better than the others!

I am neither singling out Delta nor do they better than the others, they may have more luck or get less animals for transport. The figures how many are killed per airline mean nothing unless you know the total number shipped on that particular airline.

Delta was the one in question here and when you look up the dtails, you will find that Delta was the only possible choice because of the size of the crate, nothing less than an MD80 could have handled the job and only DL serves PNS with mainline metal.
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burnsie28
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:40 pm

It happens a lot, most airlines will not except animals in weather over like 80F. NW has a special program called priority pet. Others have some programs but none as extensive as NW's.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):

I know a lot of people who use NW for that reason. They are a very good airline for shipping pets.

Does anyone know if a single airport in the US has a pet kennel like LHR (correct me if i'm worng, but its either LGW or LHR)?

MCOflyer
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PanHAM
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:13 pm

They need the Kennels at LHR etc because the poor critters have to endure 6 months quarantine.

.
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deltagator
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
I am neither singling out Delta nor do they better than the others

They have less deaths total (by a fair amount) which seems better to me though I do understand the whole concept of per capita deaths per animals transported but...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
they may have more luck or get less animals for transport.

You need to back this up with facts before tossing it out there if you want to use per capita deaths as your argument.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Cargo has always been a stepchild at Delta, which is rather surprising for an airline that size.

Source? Or just an unfounded opinion?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
I would not ship anything on DL and definately no life animals. Life animals need special attention and special handling and that was obviously not guaranteed at this airline.

Again, do you have a source that special attention and handling is not guaranteed at Delta as part of their SOP or is it just another unfounded opinion on your part?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
They need the Kennels at LHR etc because the poor critters have to endure 6 months quarantine.

I would guess that the Australian and Hawaiian airports would have them given their quarantine requirements.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:39 pm

If the box was not properly labeled to indicate live creature was inside then it comes down to the person receiving the box in Alaska. They didn't ask all the proper questions to find out what was in the box. But also to the some understanding, if the box said live snake on it with no other markings, how does anyone know what kind of snake it is or what the suitable climates are for it. It's easy to know what dogs and cats will handle but airline employees don't know what all animals can live in, 50 degrees sounds reasonable to me for an animal to be ok outside.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 20):
ONA had a walrus for Sea World in SAN dropped from DC-9 deck height by a forklift. Ruined a perfectly good walrus.

And more in Unwanted "Guests" On Flight Deck (by Goinv Oct 20 2005 in Tech Ops)
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airfoilsguy
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:39 am

The people shipping the snake did not ship it properly. It should have been in a climate controlled box with a "hot rock" It looks like the people who shipped the snake did it the cheapest way passable and suffered the consequences.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
radarbeam
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:58 am

There is a good rule of thumb when shipping pets on a flight.

Don't do it!

Animal go through an extremelly stressful time on the ramp when all they hear is engine whine, hydrolics ...etc
In flight it's the same thing. The hold might be pressurized but it's not warm in there and again they have to deal with unknown sounds and other pets who are just as scared as yours.

If you love your pet don't send him in the hold.
 
slider
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting NW7E7 (Thread starter):
They should have at least put it inside.

Airline rules (and perhaps DOT, can't recall) prohibit reptiles from being in cabin. Only dogs, cats, service animals.



Even dogs transported as cargo consistent with rules can be problematic--ie: snub-nosed dogs, like pugs, etc. They are susceptible to breathing problems and some breeds even are not well suited for flying.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):

You need to back this up with facts before tossing it out there if you want to use per capita deaths as your argument

read the little word MAY in my reply.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 8):

Source? Or just an unfounded opinion?



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 8):

Again, do you have a source that special attention and handling is not guaranteed at Delta as part of their SOP or is it just another unfounded opinion on your part?

37 years of airfreight forwarding on my back. Call it experience. When DL took over from PA at FRA, i gave that part my business to other carriers.

From the routing, Delta was likely the only choice as it can be assumed that the case was too big for a CRJ or Embraer. If not, I would have chosen CO and IAH as transfer. Better even, don't transship, which is a rule of thumb when it comes to shipping live animals. (Besides not shipping them at all)

The shipper has made that initial mistake, they should have arranged that the Pensacola Zoo sends a van to ATL to pick up the snake. If that was too expensive, keep the snake for 2 or 3 more months until warmer weather. Next - the case - if it was not properly marked, its shippers fault. If not properly provided with insulation material, whatever snakes need, shippers fault.

However, the receiving agent's duty is, to ask for the contents of the shipment. It then is his/her duty, to make all arrangements, ask the above questions, add markings if not already on the box, the whole kit and kaboodle it takes.

Read the manual when in doubt.
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iclcy
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
They need the Kennels at LHR etc because the poor critters have to endure 6 months quarantine.

The Animal Reception Centre at LHR is just that, a reception centre.

Those animals that are not travelling/arriving under the 'Pet Passport' scheme, who require quarantine are only held there until they are collected & transported to the relevant professional quarantine centre, of which there are many for a variety of animals all over the UK.
 
TheCol
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:04 am

Ground Staff have to take specific cautions while shipping AVI cargo (live animals). Even in when all the procedures are followed, some animals can't take the stress and die inside the aircraft. In my experience, DOA (dead on arrival) cases are rare. Following the set procedures for shipping animals minimizes these risks further. Regulations differ from airline to airline, but some basic shipping regs are:

- Dogs and Cats must be shipped in kennels.
- Dogs and Cats must be able to stand up, lie in their natural positions, and circle around inside their kennels.
- Kennels must made of fiberglass, metal, or rigid plastic.
- Kennel doors must be constructed of metal.
- Pets under 12 weeks old must be certified by a vet for travel.
- A vet must certify a pet that is to be sedated during travel.
- Pregnant pets must be certified by a vet for travel.
- AVI bookings are restricted to one flight connection only.
- The number of pets shipped on any one aircraft are limited.
- 24 hour contact information for the shipper and receiver are required.
- Reptiles must be shipped in a warm and dark enclosure.
- Glass enclosures are prohibited.

Quoting Radarbeam (Reply 12):
Animal go through an extremelly stressful time on the ramp when all they hear is engine whine, hydrolics ...etc

Some airlines require that pets are to be the last items transported to the plane, as well as being the last to be offloaded. That way pets can stay warm/cool and dry inside the bagroom or hold until the ground staff is able to immediately deliver them. It also minimizes the chance of pets getting stressed out by all the noise on the ramp, while they are waiting to be loaded or delivered. Some airlines also require that pets have to be transported in covered carts with curtains installed

Quoting Radarbeam (Reply 12):
The hold might be pressurized but it's not warm in there

Most airlines that I have worked with have aircraft with pressurized holds that are both heated and air conditioned (whichever is appropriate for the season). Most airlines also designate areas within the holds where animals are to be transported in.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:08 am

Exotic reptiles are extremely sensitive to cold temperatures.
The average temperature for Python molurus bivittatus is 85-88 (daytime ) and 78-80 F (nightime ).The animals normally live in the Asian tropical rainforests.
I agree that animals should not travel by plane- but then there are circumstances where you can't avoid it.
The Burmese Python is becomming a rather common sight in the Everglades ,due to some reptile owners dumping their outgrown snakes into the wilderness ,where they cause damage to the the Florida wildlife eco-balance.
That is no reason to accept two mistakes :
-the shipper has wrongly crated the animal and most likely not ensured proper en-route supervision
-the airline should have better supervised their cargo, based on the shipping -documents (I suppose it was mentioned life animal)
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Radarbeam (Reply 12):
There is a good rule of thumb when shipping pets on a flight.

Don't do it!

Animal go through an extremelly stressful time on the ramp when all they hear is engine whine, hydrolics ...etc
In flight it's the same thing. The hold might be pressurized but it's not warm in there and again they have to deal with unknown sounds and other pets who are just as scared as yours.

If you love your pet don't send him in the hold.

I have to agree. But when a person is moving from city to city and needs to have their pet transported by air, I believe there are special services that handle only pets. I love my cats too much to ever take them on a commercial airline. Should I ever leave Los Angeles and I cant drive them, I would try to get some sort of transport service to take care of them.
It is what it is...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting IcLCY (Reply 15):

Those animals that are not travelling/arriving under the 'Pet Passport' scheme, who require quarantine are only held there until they are collected &

yes, our family dog had to endure that some 40 years ago. Was received at EDI by the vet who owned the kennels somewhere between EDI and Perth.
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VonRichtofen
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:14 am

Before working for AC, i worked for a handling agent called ATS. We did the ground handling for Jetsgo (ugh). Anyway, one day we opened up the front hold and there was a terrible odour. There was a kennel with a dead Rottweiler with puke and blood everywhere. The dog had totally kicked the $hit out of his cage too. It was disgusting. Anyway, the owners of the dog tried to sue the airline, when the vet did an autopsy during an investigation the vet said the dog had been under extreme stress and had some kind of seizure. Also, and here's the kicker, the owners admitted that it was the 7th time that dog had been on an airplane within the last 2 weeks.... well no wonder it was stressed out!!!


Kris
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:09 am

I notice a couple of things here that sort of poke out at me, given the knowledge I have of Delta's animal handling services.

First of all, when shipping a snake or any temperature sensitive reptile, as someone already said, there should have been a self-contained heating apparatus in the box. I once helped a customer recieve a small ball python that he had shipped in to breed with another he owned. With the color variations, he paid $5,000 for this one, and when they mated, he could sell the babies for $1,500 a pop. Multiply that by how many babies pythons can have and you'll see why I'm in the wrong business. This python was no more than a couple of feet long and arrived in a small box not much bigger than a couple of shoeboxes. But inside the styrofoam box(to preserve the heat inside), was the snake in a canvas bag, and outside of that was a heating pad. The snake literally was shipped across the country from San Francisco to the East Coast in the middle of winter and arrived just fine. To the best of my knowledge nothing in the story states anything about the snake being given some sort of heating ability inside its crate. Now, a snake that size would need a lot more than a heating pad to stay warm, but if you are shipping a snake from Alaska to Atlanta in the dead of winter, you better have the crate heated, or you will wind up with a dead snake.

Secondly, any animal shipped into ATL and left for a period of time is taken either to the freight house for cargo or to a special kennel under the south end of A Concourse. It is a covered, climate controlled indoor kennel. All animals are signed in and staff is available for any watering or feeding the animal may require. A local vet is also on call in case of any sickness developed by the animals. Now, from what the article states, if the snake was left for 5 hours outside, not only was the crate insufficient for a travelling reptile(after all, it does drop to 50 or below in ATL in winter, duh!), but it was apparently not labeled that it was a coldblooded creature needing temperature control. Its not uncommon for freight to be left at the gate if a flight is missed and waiting for the next one, but if the next flight is 5 hours later(uncommon for a flt to PNS), the freight will be taken back to the freight house if needed(inclimate weather, caged reptile, etc.) But the crate has to be labeled for anything to be done about it. Otherwise, it will just appear to be another box with tractor parts inside or what not.

Given that Delta is the third largest carrier by size, and according to that report, has had 3 animals die in its care, compared to 8 and 9 by its larger counterparts, United and American, and far less than smaller Continental Airlines, I think can testify that Delta apparently DOES take care of animals in its control.


OttoPylit
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N231YE
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:15 am

Speaking from someone who worked at a pet store,

Most of the animals that were not fish usually came in well, I only remember like two animals dying in transit in two years.

On the other hand, DL had a problem with shipping fish, often, the water got so hot in the summer from mishandling, that an order for 500 feeder goldfish would be shot, with like 420 dead, another 50 ill, and just a handful of good fish.

Afterwards, the store used WN, who did a much better job at the fish handling.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
The figures how many are killed per airline mean nothing unless you know the total number shipped on that particular airline.

Very true. CO's numbers seem high, but they have a very well known pet program that attracts many customers.

Anyway, when you are talking such small numbers for ALL the airlines, it's statistically insignificant if it's 3 or 17 over a 2 year period. Either way, very few, if any, pets die! All the uproar is silliness.

And claiming they are "killed" is also silliness. Animals are not as hardy as people, they have shorter life spans and though don't tend to get sick as much, when they do, they die quickly.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
CO's numbers seem high, but they have a very well known pet program that attracts many customers.

Does this pet program cater to euthenasia?  rotfl 

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
Anyway, when you are talking such small numbers for ALL the airlines, it's statistically insignificant if it's 3 or 17 over a 2 year period.

I wonder if the same could be said about fatal airline crashes?

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
Animals are not as hardy as people, they have shorter life spans and though don't tend to get sick as much, when they do, they die quickly.

And what better way to go than in a loud, dark aircraft bin while stuck in a plastic crate and being paralyzed with fear of the strange smells and sounds? I can't think of any other way I'd want to go.



OttoPylit
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ikramerica
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
And what better way to go than in a loud, dark aircraft bin while stuck in a plastic crate and being paralyzed with fear of the strange smells and sounds? I can't think of any other way I'd want to go.

Whatever, man. Animals in the wild go through their whole freaking lives in fear, with strange sounds and smells. It's their natural state of being.

What is unnatural is the security of a human home. We spend our whole lives catering to pets, making their lives way, way, way easier than they would otherwise be. One or two flights in a LIFETIME when you are moving from one place to another is not going to permanently traumatize them. It just isn't.

Should we do everything we can to make sure they don't get hurt in the hold? Yes.

But the answer YOU seem to have to this whole thing is that if you are moving across the country, you should just euthanize your pet right away if you can't find a new home for it, rather than take the VERY SMALL RISK of putting them on an airplane.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
Does this pet program cater to euthenasia?

Again, you need to watch out about making claims that the airlines committed CRIMES here. You are claiming animal cruelty. You wanna back that up?

CO has a strong pet program. They don't treat pets as regular cargo. They have air conditioned vans for hub transfers, won't carry pets on extreme weather days, have special kennels at hubs, vets on staff, etc., etc. They have become trusted, so they get a lot more pets, and because animals are inherently weak, pets die. CO handles at least 72k animals in a 2 year period (based on a low estimate of 100 a day in their system), and 0.025 percent of that number died.

Animals dying is a fact of life that you don't seem to be able to grasp.

Just to do some math: if the average pet lives 10 years (dogs and cats together including accidents and illnesses), then their odds of dying in any one day are 0.025 percent. No shit. So, CO's rate of death is no different than an animal sitting on the couch!

But scare mongering is more fun than reality, I guess.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
What is unnatural is the security of a human home. We spend our whole lives catering to pets, making their lives way, way, way easier than they would otherwise be.

That is part of the problem. Dogs and cats have been bred for thousands of years to loose the natural fear you talk about. Most of the animals that people put on planes are complete wimps compared to their brothers in the wild and can die if over stressed.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
So, CO's rate of death is no different than an animal sitting on the couch!

I wounder how many humans have died on their flights from natural causes. I bet it is more then the animals.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:00 am

This thread made me think of the question:
Has there ever been an emergency declared for an animal on board? In other words, if a passengers gets seriously ill and needs medical attention, the flight is diverted. If someone with a pet had this happen to their pet, is there a procedure for declaring an emergency and diverting or is the attitude "tough luck"?
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
474218
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Cargo has always been a stepchild at Delta, which is rather surprising for an airline that size.

Delta had (and my still have) a "small package" service called DELTA DASH. I used it several time for AGO shipments (not live animals) and found it to be very efficient.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
Whatever, man. Animals in the wild go through their whole freaking lives in fear, with strange sounds and smells. It's their natural state of being.

Yea, if its a wild animal. But it appears that most of the animals shipped(dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, etc.) are domesticated animals. And they only know the dangers by being exposed to them in the wild. Being that most pets will never see what the wild is like, they do not have that natural "fear" you speak of.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
One or two flights in a LIFETIME when you are moving from one place to another is not going to permanently traumatize them.

As you say, our pets are catered to their entire lives and do not experience fear. Therefore, being put in a strange place with strange noises, sounds, and environments will be extremely stressful for them. Whether it is permanently traumatizing depends on the animal's natural timidness. Otherwise, you're saying that every animal has the same reaction to such actions, which is extremely innacurate.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
But the answer YOU seem to have to this whole thing is that if you are moving across the country, you should just euthanize your pet right away if you can't find a new home for it, rather than take the VERY SMALL RISK of putting them on an airplane.

Liar, liar, pants on fire. Please point to me where that was ever said in my post? I'll be waiting...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
Again, you need to watch out about making claims that the airlines committed CRIMES here. You are claiming animal cruelty. You wanna back that up?

Actually, I was making a joke throughout the entire post, something you APPARENTLY can't pick up on. You are so involved in your defense of your beloved Continental, you can't face the fact that sometimes they f*ck up and an animal may die, whether overstressed or what not. The animal may also die of natural causes, but this seems to be your defense on the death of every animal on any CO flight, which is also highly innacurate. And I never said anything about any airline committing any crime. As an airline employee, I'm quite aware and knowlegable of how airlines treat pets. And if I wanted to claim animal cruelty just for the heck of it, I most certainly could, but then I would be as innaccurate as you have been so for in your assumptions.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
They have air conditioned vans for hub transfers, won't carry pets on extreme weather days, have special kennels at hubs, vets on staff, etc., etc.

Wow, they have all of that just for the pets? Its impressive...although it would be more impressive if many other airlines didn't already have the same kinds of things.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
They have become trusted

Given their current track record, apparently they've become a little too trusted, hmm? And this black mark on their record will affect that trust in the future with customer's who lost beloved pets.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
They have become trusted, so they get a lot more pets, and because animals are inherently weak, pets die.

Survival of the fittest in a domesticated society? Beautiful! Provided what you have said, because animals are inherently weak, they die on Continental, but do not on United, American, and Delta. I guess those carriers only carry super strong pets cloned with steroids?

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
CO handles at least 72k animals in a 2 year period (based on a low estimate of 100 a day in their system), and 0.025 percent of that number died.

I'm not saying your wrong here, but I'm just curious where that figure came from. Would you please provide your source?

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
Animals dying is a fact of life that you don't seem to be able to grasp.

No, I can grasp that quite well. But you can't seem to grasp that animals can die because an airline f*cks up, and that Continental may, just may, sometimes f*ck up and cause an animal death. For some reason, you can't seem to grasp that in your desperate defense of any move CO may make.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
So, CO's rate of death is no different than an animal sitting on the couch!

But more cats and dogs are sitting on couches than flying on airplanes. So your equation and percentages do nothing to support your argument. Basically, your trying to tell me that if I have a 5 yr old dog, it has more of a chance of dying on the couch than by being stuck in a dark aircraft bin, away from its regular environment(or comfort zone, if that makes more sense for you) and being extremely stressed and traumatized. Hard to believe.


It would be interesting if you would have seen the joke my post originally was, but since you want to debate, I'm game. And frankly, your debate is weaker than I expected.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:27 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 28):

Delta had (and my still have) a "small package" service called DELTA DASH. I used it several time for AGO shipments (not live animals) and found it to be very efficient.

yes, but that is small change for a carrier of that size. aircargo has never been a real priority for them, they always have been belly only and that means space available behibnd baggage and mail and the "small packages".
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:07 pm

My dad got a kitten shipped air, and it went well... till we realised a day or two later one of the other animals on the shipment was diseased and gave it to the kitten.

Must have been something bad since her kittens all got it shortly after their birth too.

The cattery the kitten came from didn't have whatever it was, and never did. If they did it would have put them under in a hurry loosing a third to half of their kittens or more every litter.

Point is that even if the people do their jobs perfectly its NOT as safe as you might think since there are very little rules regarding health checks and the like for most animals.
 
TERRA
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:09 pm

Another point, and the shipper is made aware of this, is that the carrier is never held responsible for the death of an animal during transport. If they were to be held responsible no airlines would accept animals for transport.

Also fyi in the Middle East a few airlines allow pax to take their falcons on board as hand baggage.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:39 pm

Quoting TERRA (Reply 32):

Also fyi in the Middle East a few airlines allow pax to take their falcons on board as hand baggage.

I like the term hand baggage.  Smile

I've been on an EK flight DXB KHI once, in C and 2 o 3 passengers had their falcons on their arm. They were met in KHI direct at the plane and driven off in an SUV. I guess they belonged to the familiy that makes the rules there.

anyway, they would never ship these animals as baggage or freight.
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slider
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
CO has a strong pet program. They don't treat pets as regular cargo. They have air conditioned vans for hub transfers, won't carry pets on extreme weather days, have special kennels at hubs, vets on staff, etc., etc. They have become trusted, so they get a lot more pets, and because animals are inherently weak, pets die. CO handles at least 72k animals in a 2 year period (based on a low estimate of 100 a day in their system), and 0.025 percent of that number died.

Animals dying is a fact of life that you don't seem to be able to grasp.

Just to do some math: if the average pet lives 10 years (dogs and cats together including accidents and illnesses), then their odds of dying in any one day are 0.025 percent. No shit. So, CO's rate of death is no different than an animal sitting on the couch!

But scare mongering is more fun than reality, I guess.

Great response.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 29):
Given their current track record, apparently they've become a little too trusted, hmm? And this black mark on their record will affect that trust in the future with customer's who lost beloved pets.

You don't know the details of those incidents, so perhaps you should refrain from judgement.

There is a reason I mentioned the "snub-nosed" dogs.
 
nwafflyer
Posts: 888
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:39 am

Most airlines require a health certificate, from a local veterinary within 10 days of an animal flying - whether as cargo, or in the cabin
 
Lucky42
Posts: 297
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):
NW has a special program called priority pet. Others have some programs but none as extensive as NW's.

I agree with Burnsie on this one..NW although not perfect even in the pet ship biz this is a good program. Delta has a less than stellar animal shipping track record.. I remember a whole bunch of German Shepards that were shipped from germany on DL and they were transferred to another DL flight in ATL I believe and they cooked in the cargo hold of the second a/c all were killed. It was a major embarassment for DL not to mention the poor animals.
 
highflier92660
Posts: 542
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RE: Animals Dying On Commercial Flights

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:05 pm

Pets have been shipped for decades aboard jet/turboprop/piston airliners and happily 99.99% of the time they have been re-united with their owners at the end of the flight. Unfortunately, the occasional snafu does occur.

The one memorable incident I remember happened to XX Airlines when they used to fly the route between between Cleveland and Los Angeles. While the elderly owner wined and dined sumptuously in first class enjoying the Red Carpet Mainliner service, her prized award-winning cat "Blue Boy" flew in slightly less opulent surroundings in the forward cargo compartment of the westbound Boeing 727.

Nearing Twenty-Nine Palms on decent to LAX the poor rookie F/E discovered that he was having difficulty driving the cabin altitude down because his darn captain kept retarding the thrust levers to flight idle, but being young and creative he thought of a solution and thought it up quick! In an instant he closed the cargo heat outflow valve.

At LAX the wealthy cat owner gazed with eager anticipation out the pane glass window of the terminal while a conveyor belt off-loaded the baggage from her flight: soon she would be re-united with "Blue Boy." After a few minutes she spotted the crate housing the feline with the Gainsborough name moving slowly down to the ramp workers below. But at the base of the belt the baggage handlers took the crate aside and stared inside. They consulted with each other and shook their heads...and consulted some more. A ramp supervisor walked over and he too peered inside the crate. After much further collaboration the crate was opened (in full view of the terminal) and "Blue Boy" was taken out looking like something that had been buried eons in arctic permafrost.

The wealthy cat owner fainted on the spot.

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