bastew
Posts: 741
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:25 am

Interesting after the ditching of BACON. Is BA still 'Heathrow obsessed'. Or simply expanding where it can see an opportunity for profit and ditching where it can't? Wise move I think.

From todays evening standard:

BA's ambition for City airport hub
Robert Lea, Evening Standard
14 March 2007

British Airways is today launching an ambitious expansion at London City Airport, fuelling talk that it has audacious plans to dominate the Docklands hub.



This may include launching a takeover bid for the airport's biggest airline operator, VLM.
Days after it finally ditched chronically loss-making regional operation BA Connect, the flag carrier will say it is increasing its services at London City by a whopping 70% to 250 flights a week.

The move by chief executive Willie Walsh is a bold bid to win the lucrative domestic and Continent-hopping business market serving nearby Canary Wharf and the Square Mile.

BA's initial plans are to extend its flights to Edinburgh to eight daily and fly to Glasgowfour times a day.

It is also launching to the Swiss business capital of Zurich and flying to other major European business centres in Frankfurt, Milan and Madrid.

After its expansion, BA CityFlyer operations at City Airport will account for about 20% of the hub's passenger capacity.

The move comes as well-placed aviation industry sources told the Evening Standard it is believed BA has considered and could launch a takeover bid for VLM, the privately owned Belgo-Dutch airline - a move that would see BA dominate City Airport as much as it already does its home airport, the international gateway of Heathrow.

Fast-growing VLM, owned by colourful Dutch entrepreneur Jaap Rosen Jacobsen, has been City Airport's biggest operator for some time. It launched on a route to Europe's diamond-dealing capital Antwerp 15 years ago when it was an airstrip in not much more than a wasteland.

BA CityFlyer managing director Peter Simpson refused to comment on speculation over VLM but confirmed BA will not - yet - take on the airline on its core routes into the Benelux countries or on its successful London-Manchester route.

However, BA is eyeing aggressive expansion at the airport. It plans to launch a further six or seven routes should slots at the capacity-constrained airport, which can only handle maximum 120-seat aircraft, come up.

Simpson said BA initially aims to handle 650,000 passengers a year at City Airport, bringing in an annual £60 million.

CityFlyer is forecast to make a loss this year, but Simpson is aiming for breakeven next year to make a profit in year three on the way to building a business that Walsh is demanding operates on at least 10% profit margins.

'This shows our commitment to London City Airport. We plan to focus here and are looking to expand again from next year,' said Simpson.

Now connected to the Docklands Light Railway, City Airport will play a key role in the 2012 Olympics, and as an alternative to London's congested main airports.
 
8herveg
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Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting BAStew (Thread starter):
However, BA is eyeing aggressive expansion at the airport. It plans to launch a further six or seven routes should slots at the capacity-constrained airport, which can only handle maximum 120-seat aircraft, come up.

120 seat aircraft from City Airport? Thats quite a lot for such a short runway isn't it? Or have I missed the plot here? Lol.

Also, I didn't think City Airport was that slot-constrained? I thought it was just a question of where the aircraft can park in the evenings because of the small ramp space?

Also, is BA planning on changing the titles on the LCY-based aircraft to 'BA Cityflyer'?
 
iclcy
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:06 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 1):
Also, I didn't think City Airport was that slot-constrained? I thought it was just a question of where the aircraft can park in the evenings because of the small ramp space?

An additional 5 ramps will be built over the dock adjacent to the tower, before 2010.
 
metroliner
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Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:35 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting IcLCY (Reply 2):
An additional 5 ramps will be built over the dock adjacent to the tower, before 2010.

what about further expansion to the taxiways and any prospective runway extension plans?

toni
Set the controls for the heart of the Sun
 
Concorde001
Posts: 1186
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RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:58 am

Being discussed in an earlier thread:
BA Citiflyer Expands London City Flights By 70%!

Quoting BAStew (Thread starter):
BAStew

Thanks for the article - very interesting about BA and VLM!
 
MEA-707
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:07 am

Is it me or do I see the history repeating; BA/BAcon gobbled up BCal, Dan-Air, Cityflyer, Manx etc in the last 20 years and codeshare with Brymon/Maersk UK, Deutsche BA etc only to close most routes after a while and sell most planes as these were reported loss making.
We might see VLM disappear and then LCY being ditched as major hub in 3 years time? Let's hope not. Also while BA has quite good service, VLMs personal touch and full service will be missed.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
iclcy
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:06 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting Metroliner (Reply 3):
what about further expansion to the taxiways and any prospective runway extension plans?

A taxiway between the new ramp extension & runway will also be created. As for runway extensions, no chance. LCY is blocked in by roads at both ends of the runways aswel as residential developments. The is simply no where to go.
 
BA787
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RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:24 am

Would be very cool if BA took over VLM, might mean they wont desert MAN Big grin
 
carledwards
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 2:32 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:51 pm

Hi everyone

I noticed in the CityAM Newspaper this morning in London, that BA Cityflyer is 'relaunching' itself on 26th March from LCY. This is effectively replacing the lame duck that was BA Connect with what existed before it. However does this mean that free food and drink will be brought back from this date? I think it was a great shame and a very bad selling point BA took the refreshments away from both BA Connect and GB Airways, and considering many other carriers offer free refreshments from LCY, BA are going to lose pax because of this one point, since however small it may be, it means a lot to pax.

Does anyone know the answer to this? If the answer is no - if anyone from BA is reading this - bring back the free refreshments from LCY or risk losing business traffic to the likes of the Star Alliance airlines!

Carl
Directoria
 
Concorde001
Posts: 1186
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:53 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting Carledwards (Reply 8):
However does this mean that free food and drink will be brought back from this date? I think it was a great shame and a very bad selling point BA took the refreshments away from both BA Connect and GB Airways, and considering many other carriers offer free refreshments from LCY, BA are going to lose pax because of this one point, since however small it may be, it means a lot to pax.

Does anyone know the answer to this? If the answer is no - if anyone from BA is reading this - bring back the free refreshments from LCY or risk losing business traffic to the likes of the Star Alliance airlines!

All BA, BA Connect and GB Airways services fro LHR, LGW and LCY always provided free food and drink to passengers. It was only on BA Connect and GB Airways services from MAN, EDI, GLA, BRS, EMA, SOU etc that passengers had to pay for food. So LCY has never had buy-on-board service!
 
carledwards
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 2:32 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 9):
All BA, BA Connect and GB Airways services fro LHR, LGW and LCY always provided free food and drink to passengers. It was only on BA Connect and GB Airways services from MAN, EDI, GLA, BRS, EMA, SOU etc that passengers had to pay for food. So LCY has never had buy-on-board service!

oh wow, thanks for the reply. So they have never taken it away from LCY then. BA have made their structure so complicated its difficult to know what is happenning where! So it is only the non-London regional hubs which have no food  Smile
Directoria
 
carledwards
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 2:32 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:26 pm

Quoting Carledwards (Reply 10):
So it is only the non-London regional hubs which have no food

Actually this just brings me back to the point as to why I thought this in the first place. When I booked my BA flights to Zurich for the new service in April, it clearly stated on the website:

- This flight is operated by BA Connect, food and beverages are available to purchase on board.

- However if I search for the same flight again now, it just says 'operated by BA Cityflyer'.
Directoria
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
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RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:17 pm

Maybe the owner of VLM needs money to capitalise Rekkof to launch the new Fokker 70 aircraft?
 Wink
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
carledwards
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 2:32 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
Maybe the owner of VLM needs money to capitalise Rekkof to launch the new Fokker 70 aircraft?

Has everyone seen this?

http://www.flyvlm.com/emc.asp?pageId=1128

Some nice photo-shopped images of a 146 in VLM livery! I personally however will not look forward to the Fokker 50's going, they are unique, and more environmentally friendly than the 146?
Directoria
 
sam1987
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 9):
All BA, BA Connect and GB Airways services fro LHR, LGW and LCY always provided free food and drink to passengers.

Presumambly the MAN to JFK service provides free food and drink as well?

Will the GT routes from EMA, MAN and BRS revert to free food and drink now they are no longer part of BA Connect?
Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
 
Concorde001
Posts: 1186
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:53 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:59 am

Quoting Sam1987 (Reply 14):
Presumambly the MAN to JFK service provides free food and drink as well?

Yes free food and drink. MAN-JFK offers the same service ex LHR.

Quoting Sam1987 (Reply 14):
Will the GT routes from EMA, MAN and BRS revert to free food and drink now they are no longer part of BA Connect?

I have no idea, but with GT reported to announce a new strategy/directionm, who knows! There is talk of GT ditching the BA franchise and going it alone.
 
richardw
Posts: 3135
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:19 am

The GT/BA agreement lasts until 2010, plenty of time for BA to change at LGW, GT may follow or go it alone.
 
heliflyerPDC
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:16 pm

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting BA787 (Reply 7):
Would be very cool if BA took over VLM,

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=19265 (Link in dutch)

In this Link its stated that sources in the aviation industries say tha BA wants to take over VLM . So you might be Right, but neither party has said that its true (VLM, "no talks with BA" , BA "no comment")

grtz PDC
grtz PDC
 
StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:29 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:27 pm

LCY is the new LHR.

Recently LCY has become packed out every day.

Revenues from LCY are generally £40 return higher than LHR (or any other London Airport), this is due to the time saving/cost on the Heathrow Express, the 1.5 hours it takes to get to LHR and the chaos of 3 hour checkin's at LHR since the spanish owners went to war with the government over security.

Basically business travellers are herding over to LCY, even if it's to get a connecting Long Haul flight from Europe instead.

You might think i'm exaggerating here, but I am one of these people. Ive seen LCY go from grabbing a seat at the 3 seater bar an chatting to the barman, to standing in the lounge looking for a chair, even in the new extended bar area, or even a place to stand.

The exponential growth of LCY flights and passenger numbers is staggering in the last 12 months !

VLM has extended, and Air France also announced 8 new routes in one day! Add to this the new SAS routes, nothing could be better for LCY...

and despite this growth...

You can still checkin 10 minutes prior to departure.. or finish work at 5pm in Bishopsgate, London and be on the 5.45pm flight VG444 to Manchester and if the Manchester ATC is in good shape.. I can be out of MAN Airport and in cab at 6.30pm !... come join me if you want to see !
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
richardw
Posts: 3135
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:44 pm

After recent LHR T2 chaos, LCY is top of the list for a Friday evening weekend get away and the aircraft are fun too.
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5210
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:15 pm

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 18):
Basically business travellers are herding over to LCY, even if it's to get a connecting Long Haul flight from Europe instead.

Wouldn't the exclusion then of bigger aircraft operating into LCY, as mentioned in the other thread, be a bit shortsighted or ill advised?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
richardw
Posts: 3135
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:26 pm

I think BA's pricing policy avoids their RJ100s ever being full, so no need for more empty seats, enough already.
 
Bongodog1964
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Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
Wouldn't the exclusion then of bigger aircraft operating into LCY, as mentioned in the other thread, be a bit shortsighted or ill advised?

As mentioned earlier its a city airport. The runway is on a finger of land between two disused docks, one end has water, and the other end the terminal. In addition the approach is steep due to various tall buildings.
Unless an aircraft manufacturer is willing to produce a design for a very limited market, planes at LCY will not get much larger.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:56 pm

The ERJ170/190 are certified for LCY i think, and the A318 is in the process of being certified if it isnt already. I think the A319 could, and I know Boeing has a STO enhancement package for the 737.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5210
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 22):
Unless an aircraft manufacturer is willing to produce a design for a very limited market, planes at LCY will not get much larger.

Not much larger yes, but I guess you missed these.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...318-makes-mark-at-london-city.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-and-departure-at-london-city.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...shrugs-off-a318-lcy-challenge.html

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 23):
The ERJ170/190 are certified for LCY i think, and the A318 is in the process of being certified if it isnt already.

From the last link.....

Quote:
"The Embraer 170 twinjet is undergoing testing and is due to receive steep approach certification this year. The manufacturer has started the campaign for the E-190, with approval expected in 2008."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Baexecutive
Posts: 594
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:29 pm

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:55 pm

Does anyone know if BA are going to brand the aircraft with 'CityFlyer' titles?

J
 
StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:29 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
Wouldn't the exclusion then of bigger aircraft operating into LCY, as mentioned in the other thread, be a bit shortsighted or ill advised?

Actually the fact LCY has small planes makes it easier to navigate... no 3 minute waits between take offs etc..

LCY has 1 short runway, from taxi to take off can be as little as 30 seconds, as long as 3 minutes, and not really longer.
LHR you spend 30 minutes navigating your way to the runway.

VLM's little F50 can take off at 5.45pm, spend less than 1 minute to take off, 30 minutes flying to Manchester, and 5 minutes to taxi to the gate in Manchester.

By comparison BMI's A320 can spend 30 minutes navigating to the runway at LHR, 30 minutes in the air, and 5 minutes to the gate in Manchester.
Turnaround of the A320 is about 60 minutes, the F50 can be done in 20.

In other words the F50 can actually do 3 round trips to LCY in the time it takes the A320 to do 2 to LHR.

Considering ive never seen a full A320 from LHR to MAN and the F50 is always full (and more expensive).. someones making more money.

Personally I hope BA dont buy VLM, I can see the whole operation going south at a high speed rate. I think BA have realised that the new taxes on domestic tickets are pricing them out of the market from LHR, as people are either taking the train (for the same amount of time) or flying from LCY at a premium, but passengers will pay more for time using LCY, therefore it makes sense to set up a <500 mile operation from a fast access high yield airport then continue from a slow one.

I just wish someone would set up ABZ and WAW from LCY and my rack of regular flights from LCY would be complete. (MAN, EDI, AMS, BRU, GVA, ZRH).

I actually think the A318 would clog up LCY as it's airport footprint is much larger and may require longer waits between take offs. Consider the A318 doesnt represent a seating capacity increase it's a bit of an elephant for the airport.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3072
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:15 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 24):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 22):
Unless an aircraft manufacturer is willing to produce a design for a very limited market, planes at LCY will not get much larger.

Not much larger yes, but I guess you missed these.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...318-makes-mark-at-london-city.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-and-departure-at-london-city.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html

I hadn't missed any of these

Both the E190 and A318 are in the same class as the RJ100's presently used by BA, the seating capacity only varies by a maximum of about 10 seats between any of them.

In order to provide a significant increase in capacity you would need to move up to A319/737 sized aircraft
 
A342
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Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 23):
and I know Boeing has a STO enhancement package for the 737.

True, but that does not include steep approach capability. Did you leave out the L intentionally ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: BA Plans Big LCY Expansion

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:41 pm

What we need is my patented Vertical Take-off jet liner that is fired directly upwards from a whacking great catapult and then flys in a curve until flying level - then you only need the runway for landing - you would need a ladder to get up the isle to your seat a la Space Shuttle Big grin

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