jhiller
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DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:11 am

When I was in Israel two weeks ago one of the TLV airport managers told me that NWA was going to begin a nonstop from DTW to TLV. Could that be true ?
Jim
 
LHUSA
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:14 am

I wonder if thier A330-200's can make it that far. I don't think they would do the route with a 744. I think it would be a pretty strong route though.
 
jhiller
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:18 am

I wondered if this might be a future 787 route ? That might make the most sense.
Jim
 
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 1):
I wonder if thier A330-200's can make it that far. I don't think they would do the route with a 744. I think it would be a pretty strong route though.

Its well within the A332's range, and even the A333 could do it, but westbound would be a challenge with headwinds and all.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:37 am

Highly, highly doubtful.

Just doesn't seem to be a market that NW would enter, considering that DTW doesn't have the mega O&D that is found places like ORD & JFK/EWR, or the ATL mega-hub.

The A330's are way too big capacity-wise for such a route, regardless of performance.

787's maybe, but NW is going to use those for Asia first and foremost. You would see 787 flights to Asia & India first before NW ventures into the Middle East. Its possible although unlikely, at least several years out.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting Jhiller (Thread starter):
When I was in Israel two weeks ago one of the TLV airport managers told me that NWA was going to begin a nonstop from DTW to TLV. Could that be true ?

That's a new one.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
Highly, highly doubtful.



Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
787's maybe, but NW is going to use those for Asia first and foremost. You would see 787 flights to Asia & India first before NW ventures into the Middle East. Its possible although unlikely, at least several years out.

Maybe 757's from out of AMS might work. I could see that.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
Maybe 757's from out of AMS might work. I could see that.

NW won't fly 757's beyond AMS and do intra-Europe flights, those are KLM routes. I assume KLM flies AMS-TLV which is more than suitable for the time being.
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
787's maybe, but NW is going to use those for Asia first and foremost

Isn't TLV in Asia? Big grin
 
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:04 am

Technicality, smarta$$, you know what I meant, as in the Far East.
 
cba
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 3):
Its well within the A332's range, and even the A333 could do it, but westbound would be a challenge with headwinds and all

 checkmark 

This flight would really be pushing the limits of the 333, but is easily doable with the 332.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
The A330's are way too big capacity-wise for such a route, regardless of performance.

I disagree. The A332 seems like the perfect-sized airplane to start this route. It's got the legs to make the trip work in both directions and is easier to fill than a larger aircraft.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
NW won't fly 757's beyond AMS and do intra-Europe flights, those are KLM routes. I assume KLM flies AMS-TLV which is more than suitable for the time being.

I think, eventually the 757's will be flying beyond Europe out of AMS.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:20 am

The A332 is still 243 seats, 34 of which are WBC, from DTW, that is a large aircraft to TLV. Not going to see it within this decade.

I completely disagree with you JetJack, not unless the NW/KLM alliance falls apart will you see NW operate anything within Europe. That would be like KLM coming in and flying routes like DTW-LAX.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 3):
Quoting LHUSA (Reply 1):
I wonder if thier A330-200's can make it that far. I don't think they would do the route with a 744. I think it would be a pretty strong route though.

Its well within the A332's range, and even the A333 could do it, but westbound would be a challenge with headwinds and all.

It's 5,212nm which is really pushing what the A333 could do westbound, even way weight restricted. It's quite possibly too large for the route as well though. The A332 would be able to make that route, though, probably with a near full load westbound even. DL and CO seem to be doing very well on their TLV routes, I'm sure NW could join in.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
787's maybe, but NW is going to use those for Asia first and foremost. You would see 787 flights to Asia & India first before NW ventures into the Middle East. Its possible although unlikely, at least several years out.

The 787 would certainly perform this route well, but the A332 is really fairly similar to 787-8 in seating capacity, and A332 would fit better into NW's A330 transatlantic fleet, but it could be either or.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
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jetjack74
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):
I completely disagree with you JetJack,

Ok
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hjulicher
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:45 am

I actually disagree... I think that DTW-TLV is a very good flight considering that DTW does have enough of and O/D to operate this route. I'm not saying that NW will start it, but I don't think that it's out of the question as being a possible route. It's just not NW's style to start a route like that. I believe that metro-detroit has a very large Jewish population. I mean, i'm sure it's not to the size of NYC or Chicago, but I bet it's bigger than most other top 10 metro areas in the US. Anyways, I believe that DTW has the facilities and connections to offer such a flight if NW decided to start it, and it would be ideal for the A332.
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dtwclipper
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 14):
I believe that metro-detroit has a very large Jewish population

78,000 in the metro area, and shrinking.

21st largest jewish community in the US.

http://www.thisisfederation.org/downloads/MajorThemesReport.pdf

[Edited 2007-03-15 04:55:14]
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VC10DC10
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:46 pm

O&D is vital, of course, but don't forget NW's favorite thing ever (even more than DC9s): connecting passengers! All the folks from MSP, SEA, PDX, MKE, GEG, BIL, and all those other historically NW cities will come to DTW for the run to Israel. Personally, I suspect this would work out just fine -- NW might want to start slow, with just 3 flights per week for example, and later move up to daily service.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:46 pm

Yeah, and I'll raise the same argument that happens everytime someone brings up the size of a certain ethnic population.....it is a very minimal factor in determing the demand for a specific route. How many of those 78,000 people are actually wanting to fly to TLV on a regular basis....not enough to fill an A330. I mean this is NW we are talking aboutm who won't even fly MSP-CDG yet, or restore DTW-FCO, let alone some route like DTW-TLV.
 
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:53 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):

Again, connections, connections, connections... surely there are some people in the United States who live outside of any airline's hub cities who would like to travel to some of these major, world-class cities without making two enroute stops (e.g., DTW and AMS). Just a humble opinion.

Also, FCO is well-served by NW's partner Alitalia, but TLV (and much of the Middle East, for that matter), isn't well-covered by Sky Team.

[Edited 2007-03-15 05:54:33]
 
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 16):
O&D is vital, of course, but don't forget NW's favorite thing ever (even more than DC9s): connecting passengers! All the folks from MSP, SEA, PDX, MKE, GEG, BIL, and all those other historically NW cities will come to DTW for the run to Israel.

Of which there is so little demand that still won't fill up 240 seats a day, or even 3 times a week.
Considering NW doesn't even fly GEG-DTW, BIL-DTW at all and doesnt' even fly PDX-DTW year round, places like this are a moot point and would require double connections.

Seriously, United doesn't even fly to TLV, and you would sure see a ORD-TLV on United, long before NW even considered a DTW-TLV.

People can easily fly KLM through AMS!!!!
 
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 19):

Fair enough. Still, airlines have done crazier things.
 
masseybrown
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:11 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 16):
O&D is vital, of course, but don't forget NW's favorite thing ever (even more than DC9s): connecting passengers!

I've read in the local paper that 8% of Washington's Jewish population makes a trip to Israel each year. I have no idea if you can use that number for Detroit's 78,000 or for MKE, MSP, SEA etc.
 
VC10DC10
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 21):

Is that Washington State or Washington, D.C.?
 
ei a330-200
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:24 pm

One thing that most people are forgetting is that DTW holds a large Palestinian population. TLV would be the ideal airport for these passengers. They could also offer connecting traffic if they partner with LY.
 
masseybrown
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:39 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 22):
Is that Washington State or Washington, D.C.?

D. C.
 
rjpieces
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 21):
I've read in the local paper that 8% of Washington's Jewish population makes a trip to Israel each year.

If that percentage is accurate, which I doubt, it probably represents VFR traffic and not the high-end business traffic that makes any route to Israel, or anywhere for that matter, profitable.
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VC10DC10
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:45 pm

Quoting EI A330-200 (Reply 23):
They could also offer connecting traffic if they partner with LY.

Or, for that matter, provide LY with some competition to the Midwest and Western states (though I'm guessing from your username that you wouldn't welcome this as much  Wink).
 
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:49 pm

The connections thing is key. There may not be a huge community in Detroit (although it's not small)...but there are lots of smaller communities in the midwest that could connect into DTW easily and would prefer to do so over NYC/ATL/ORD. Cleveland, Minneapolis, Memphis, St. Louis...you get the idea. There are also communities in NW focus cities like PDX and SEA that would likely use it. None of these are huge, but they're all in the area and/or NW has good service/brand name to them. Right now all those communities go to one of those other places, but if they play it right, NW can siphon off one 332 a day.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
VC10DC10
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 27):
Right now all those communities go to one of those other places, but if they play it right, NW can siphon off one 332 a day.

I'm with you 100%.
 
Lemurs
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 25):
If that percentage is accurate, which I doubt, it probably represents VFR traffic and not the high-end business traffic that makes any route to Israel, or anywhere for that matter, profitable.

Don't doubt it too much, and don't entirely disassociate VFR from business. In typical Jewish communities, trips to Israel are often a strange combination of both. There are plenty of wealthy individuals who do some aspect of their business in both locations because they serve the community itself. Any one city may not fill a cabin by itself, but if it can offer one or two premium flyers a day, you can fill a good number of those 32 seats up front.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
dutchjet
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:08 pm

Consider the following:

1. Detroit is not the greatest of transatlantic gateways due to geographical position and O&D traffic potential.....for years, NW has only offered London, Paris and Frankfurt (the three no-brainer destinatnons) and is only now making a conservative transatlantic expansion. DTW-TLV is a longshot.

2. The size of Detroits Jewish community is not an important factor for several reasons......ethnic VFR traffic is very much over played at a.net again and again.

3. The more important issue is O&D demand from Detroit, demand from pax in the region that would prefer to travel via Detroit instead of EWR, ATL, JFK, etc, and premium demand. There really does not seem to be much to support this flight.

4. KL connections out of AMS to TLV is the answer here.

And, do consider that many Christians and Muslims utilize TLV......and also consider that TLV is a major business destination......why does every discussion concerning flights to TLV focus on the number of jews in a given city or what the local synagouge is planning? Please take a look at the LH schedule to TLV and then think about TLV as a destination.
 
Lemurs
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:20 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 30):
why does every discussion concerning flights to TLV focus on the number of jews in a given city or what the local synagouge is planning?

Because, at least when you enter into the religous aspect of judaism (espcially orthodox), there is a much stronger attachment to Israel that in other ethnic groups. The land of Israel itself is a central part of the religion, and is thought of and spoken of on a daily basis. That doesn't mean it's not important to other groups of people of course, but tapping into the religious communities is vital to any USA-TLV route. It's not purely ethnicity that drives Jews in NYC (whose grandparents live in the pale of Russia for a hundreds of years, and have lived in the US for a hundred more) to Israel. Get on your average ATL, NYC, MIA, LAX flight to TLV, and you see a lot of yarmulkes. It's not a coincidence, and it's entirely out of proportion with the population.
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dutchjet
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:25 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 31):

Because, at least when you enter into the religous aspect of judaism (espcially orthodox), there is a much stronger attachment to Israel that in other ethnic groups. The land of Israel itself is a central part of the religion, and is thought of and spoken of on a daily basis. That doesn't mean it's not important to other groups of people of course, but tapping into the religious communities is vital to any USA-TLV route. It's not purely ethnicity that drives Jews in NYC (whose grandparents live in the pale of Russia for a hundreds of years, and have lived in the US for a hundred more) to Israel. Get on your average ATL, NYC, MIA, LAX flight to TLV, and you see a lot of yarmulkes. It's not a coincidence, and it's entirely out of proportion with the population.

Agreed, 100%.........I think that you mis-took what I was saying.......my point is that there is far more to the TLV bound traffic than Jewish people visiting Israel. TLV is a large business destination as well.

Its funny, travelling from Europe to Tel Aviv, I have always been surprised by the small portion of pax that are observant or orthodox jews.
 
Lemurs
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 32):
Agreed, 100%.........I think that you mis-took what I was saying.......my point is that there is far more to the TLV bound traffic than Jewish people visiting Israel. TLV is a large business destination as well.

Its funny, travelling from Europe to Tel Aviv, I have always been surprised by the small portion of pax that are observant or orthodox jews.

Ah gotcha, you're right that I didn't get where you were going...makes more sense now. The Europe part isn't such a surprise for me. There aren't many Jews left in Eastern or Western Europe (surprise, surprise) AND Israel is a popular tourist destination there. It's probably the shortest flight to a warm, tropical location that gets you out of the EU at the same time. I recall that at one point the biggest non-American visitors to Israel were in fact Germans, since the spas around the Dead Sea were considered therapudic and paid for under health programs there...not a bad way to get your medicine.  Smile
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
amirs
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 18):
Also, FCO is well-served by NW's partner Alitalia, but TLV (and much of the Middle East, for that matter), isn't well-covered by Sky Team

TLV isnt well covered?


CO fly 2x daily to TLV from EWR
DL flies daily to TLV from ATL and codeshares on the El Al NYC - TLV flights.
AF has 2 daily flights
AZ have 2-3 daily flights.
KLM has a daily flight

Here is a small example of Skyteams option to TLV from LAX today:
CO 090 Los Angeles (LAX) 01:00 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 03:10 PM + 1 day(s) EQV* 17h10min /1

DL 152 Los Angeles (LAX) 01:25 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 04:25 PM + 1 day(s) EQV* 18h00min /1

DL 1842 Los Angeles (LAX) 11:27 AM New York (JFK) 07:54 PM 752 18h13min
DL 8978 OP New York (JFK) 10:20 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 02:40 PM + 1 day(s) 744

DL 044 Los Angeles (LAX) 11:48 AM Paris (CDG) 08:45 AM + 1 day(s) EQV* 19h12min /1
AF 1620 Paris (CDG) 10:30 AM + 1 day(s) Tel Aviv (TLV) 04:00 PM + 1 day(s) 320

CO 016 Los Angeles (LAX) 10:25 AM New York (EWR) 06:45 PM 738 19h15min
DL 8978 OP New York (JFK) 10:20 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 02:40 PM + 1 day(s) 744

CO 1703 Los Angeles (LAX) 08:20 AM New York (EWR) 04:41 PM 757 19h30min
DL 8976 OP New York (JFK) 08:30 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 12:50 PM + 1 day(s) 744

DL 8549 OP Los Angeles (LAX) 07:25 PM Paris (CDG) 02:00 PM + 1 day(s) 77W 19h40min
AF 2220 Paris (CDG) 06:35 PM + 1 day(s) Tel Aviv (TLV) 12:05 AM + 2 day(s) 320

AF 069 Los Angeles (LAX) 07:25 PM Paris (CDG) 02:00 PM + 1 day(s) 77W 19h40min
AF 2220 Paris (CDG) 06:35 PM + 1 day(s) Tel Aviv (TLV) 12:05 AM + 2 day(s) 320

CO 016 Los Angeles (LAX) 10:25 AM New York (EWR) 06:45 PM 738 19h45min
CO 090 New York (EWR) 10:50 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 03:10 PM + 1 day(s) 777

DL 148 Los Angeles (LAX) 08:00 AM New York (JFK) 04:19 PM 752 19h50min
DL 8976 OP New York (JFK) 08:30 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 12:50 PM + 1 day(s) 744

this is from ORD:

CO 1147 Chicago (ORD) 11:10 AM New York (EWR) 02:30 PM 735 14h05min
CO 084 New York (EWR) 03:50 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 08:15 AM + 1 day(s) 777

CO 1174 Chicago (ORD) 06:00 PM New York (EWR) 09:25 PM 735 14h10min
CO 090 New York (EWR) 10:50 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 03:10 PM + 1 day(s) 777

AF 051 Chicago (ORD) 06:35 PM Paris (CDG) 08:50 AM + 1 day(s) 343 14h25min
AF 1620 Paris (CDG) 10:30 AM + 1 day(s) Tel Aviv (TLV) 04:00 PM + 1 day(s) 320

DL 8505 OP Chicago (ORD) 06:35 PM Paris (CDG) 08:50 AM + 1 day(s) 343 14h25min
AF 1620 Paris (CDG) 10:30 AM + 1 day(s) Tel Aviv (TLV) 04:00 PM + 1 day(s) 320

CO 1186 Chicago (ORD) 05:05 PM New York (EWR) 08:40 PM 735 15h05min
CO 090 New York (EWR) 10:50 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 03:10 PM + 1 day(s) 777

AZ 627 Chicago (ORD) 04:40 PM Milan (MXP) 07:35 AM + 1 day(s) 767 15h25min
AZ 804 Milan (MXP) 10:10 AM + 1 day(s) Tel Aviv (TLV) 03:05 PM + 1 day(s) 321

DL 8163 OP Chicago (ORD) 04:40 PM Milan (MXP) 07:35 AM + 1 day(s) 767 15h25min
AZ 804 Milan (MXP) 10:10 AM + 1 day(s) Tel Aviv (TLV) 03:05 PM + 1 day(s) 321

DL 769 Chicago (ORD) 05:45 PM Atlanta (ATL) 08:50 PM M88 15h40min
DL 152 Atlanta (ATL) 10:40 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 04:25 PM + 1 day(s) 777

DL 5371 OP Chicago (ORD) 09:17 AM New York (JFK) 12:38 PM CRJ 15h58min
CO 084 New York (EWR) 03:50 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 08:15 AM + 1 day(s) 777

CO 1170 Chicago (ORD) 04:00 PM New York (EWR) 07:34 PM 735 16h10min
CO 090 New York (EWR) 10:50 PM Tel Aviv (TLV) 03:10 PM + 1 day(s) 777


seems like enough
 
amirs
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:08 pm

BTW -
Chance of a DTW - TLV flight on NW is like the possibilty of a PHL - TLV on US.
I am surprised UA or AA are not trying to operate ORD - TLV now that LY left ORD.
I think AA would be able to start operating flight to TLV soon, its been 6 years since TWA was taken over by AA.
 
IAD380
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:21 pm

Although I would like NW to fly from DTW to TLV, I think this route would be a very big gamble for the airline. ORD, rather than DTW, seems a better choice for flights from the Midwest to TLV. Yet, LY is suspending flights to Chicago. Nonetheless, a route between ORD and TLV would seem to attract more business and VFR traffic and a DTW-TLV route. Also ORD offers better domestic connections than NW's hub at Detroit. If ORD does not work, why would DTW?

Other airlines are supposedly considering whether to establish new routes from the United States to Israel. As discussed on other threads in this forum, CO is considering a new route from IAH to TLV while US may inaugurate a new PHL-TLV route when it receives new aircraft. This week, the Jerusalem Post reported that the Boston airport authority wants LY or another airline to start two or three nonstop flights a week from to BOS to TLV because every day,at least 90 passengers fly between the two cities, connecting in New York or Europe.
 
amirs
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 36):
Also ORD offers better domestic connections than NW's hub at Detroit. If ORD does not work, why would DTW?

You cannot simply say that ORD was not sucessful. It was not successful for LY for many reasons.
LY's flights were not nonstop to TLV , they were via YYZ and EWR.
LY only has codeshare agreements with DL, DL does not have a hub in ORD.

If another US airline offer nonstop flights to TLV from ORD they will be much more successful. In this way they can :1. Get the O&D ORD traffic and 2. offer excellent one stop flights from the WestCoast/Midwest to TLV.
This would definetly be more successful than CO via IAH.

[Edited 2007-03-15 16:24:24]
 
airplanetire
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:39 pm

DTW-TLV might be a longshot, but let me throw a few things out there:

1) KLM via AMS is a very bad option. I just recently booked a ticket to TLV from ATL and would have loved to fly KLM via AMS (DL from ATL was way too expensive), but the timing was terrible. I would have arrived in AMS in the morning and then would have had to wait until about 9:00pm for the flight TLV, which then arrived around 2:00am. Almost no other airline had a similarly bad schedule for passengers originating in North America. The return would be fine (leave early in the morning, arrive AMS in the morning in time to make connections), but the outbound was terrible. I booked on Continental via EWR instead.

2) Based on the fares into TLV, there seems to be a lot of demand. NW could possibly take advantage of that at DTW, even if there was not a lot of O&D traffic. Connections are fairly good at DTW. Furthermore, I've heard it's a very nice airport for international flights, so for passengers who would make a connection anyway to get to TLV, it might be a good option (for that segment of the population that knows and cares about airports).
 
rjpieces
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RE: DTW-TLV

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:44 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 30):
And, do consider that many Christians and Muslims utilize TLV......and also consider that TLV is a major business destination......why does every discussion concerning flights to TLV focus on the number of jews in a given city or what the local synagouge is planning? Please take a look at the LH schedule to TLV and then think about TLV as a destination.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  There should be a disclaimer saying the above in every A.net thread regarding service to Israel.

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 31):
Because, at least when you enter into the religous aspect of judaism (espcially orthodox), there is a much stronger attachment to Israel that in other ethnic groups. The land of Israel itself is a central part of the religion, and is thought of and spoken of on a daily basis.

Of course, but this doesn't translate into an economic argument. Most Orthodox Jews that I know rarely travel to Israel. My dentist recently travelled to Israel for his first time in over 20 years; another I know is a rabbi with four children who simply can't afford to travel there. Sure, there are PLENTY of Orthodox Jews on any NYC-TLV flight but you can not argue that the religious aspects of Judaism make a flight profitable.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 32):
Its funny, travelling from Europe to Tel Aviv, I have always been surprised by the small portion of pax that are observant or orthodox jews.

That doesn't surprise me...The same can not be said for JFK-TLV flights though  Smile
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
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RE: DTW-TLV

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 37):
You cannot simply say that ORD was not successful. It was not successful for LY for many reasons. . . .If another US airline offer nonstop flights to TLV from ORD they will be much more successful.

OK. What you say makes sense. However, which American airline is likely to fill the void that LY left at ORD? I doubt that AA or UA will inaugurate flights from their hubs at ORD to TLV anytime soon. AA apparently has an unsettled labor dispute with former TW employees in Israel which could prove costly to resolve. Most of UA's transatlantic flights originate at IAD rather than ORD. Neither airline has indicated any interest in starting flights to TLV.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 37):
This would definitely be more successful than CO via IAH.

I understand why you consider ORD a better base for flights to TLV than IAH. However, CO is a dominant American carrier on transatlantic routes and it has a strong market position in Israel. In fact, CO may be the foreign carrier with the strongest market presence in Israel. United's transatlantic route network is weaker than CO's, and it has never flown to TLV. Under these circumstances, is it likely that CO, operating a new IAH-TLV route, would outperform UA on ORD-TLV?
 
amirs
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RE: DTW-TLV

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:09 am

BTW - Does the labor dispute that AA has with the TWA employyes, affect AA in other countries?
I sthat the reason why AA doesnt fly to too many destinations in Europe?
 
bobnwa
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RE: DTW-TLV

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 36):
Also ORD offers better domestic connections than NW's hub at Detroit.

I don't think that is true. I would say the domestic connection possibilities would be about the same.
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
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RE: DTW-TLV

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 41):
BTW - Does the labor dispute that AA has with the TWA employyes, affect AA in other countries?
I sthat the reason why AA doesnt fly to too many destinations in Europe?

Then, why are surprised that AA does not jump at the chance to fly from ORD to TLV?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DTW-TLV

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 42):
I don't think that is true. I would say the domestic connection possibilities would be about the same.

For domestic connections, DTW & ORD are pretty much even. ORD offers better connections to the West Coast and more frequencies in some instances. DTW offers much better regional connections to smaller markets in the Great Lakes & Mid-Atlantic than ORD, since due to the limited slots and lack of turboprops at ORD. However, this is just a drop in the bucket in the big picture. Not to mention the delay/jam factor at ORD.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 41):
BTW - Does the labor dispute that AA has with the TWA employyes, affect AA in other countries?
I sthat the reason why AA doesnt fly to too many destinations in Europe?

Its only in TLV due to Israel's labor laws. When AA acquired TWA, and wanted to drop the TLV route, there was a dispute about laying off the local TWA employees in TLV. Basically they weren't allowed to terminate employees in the manner that they did. In the US, it would've been perfectly legal, but it not over there. Hence why AA is reluncant to return, and may never return because of this. Its a one-off situation. AA still flies to a sustancial number of European destinations, all considering their hub locations and Trans-Atlantic aircraft fleet.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4457
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RE: DTW-TLV

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 36):
If ORD does not work, why would DTW?

Simple, It wouldnt. The local population and the connections are not high enough.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 36):
CO is considering a new route from IAH to TLV

Wont happen. I think that TLV is covered very well. IAH TLV would be redundant and I dont think IAH has the local market for it either. I think ORD-TLV nonstop or maybe IAD should come before IAH.
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DiscoverCSG
Posts: 525
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RE: DTW-TLV

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 45):
Wont happen. I think that TLV is covered very well. IAH TLV would be redundant and I dont think IAH has the local market for it either. I think ORD-TLV nonstop or maybe IAD should come before IAH.

CO's service to TLV is a bit of a special case. Without considering demographics, you might think the twice-daily EWR-TLV flights rely on connecting traffic over the strong EWR hub.

Wrong.

CO could easily fill both EWR-TLV 772's with local O+D traffic. NYC is the world's largest Jewish city, to say nothing of Arabs, plus other business and leisure traffic.

Why would CO operate something like IAH-TLV, too? Well, there is a fair amount of traffic nationwide to TLV (of all the types I just mentioned) which could fill a connecting flight. See DL flying ATL-TLV, for example. If CO flew IAH-TLV and filled it with more connecting traffic, it could sell more of its EWR-TLV seats as O+D and sell more (potentially high-yielding) seats on routes like LAX-EWR, FLL-EWR, and on and on. As it stands now, a customer might pay, say, $3500 for a J ticket LAX-EWR-TLV. If that customer had the option of flying LAX-IAH-TLV, CO might sell the LAX-EWR seat for $1500 and the EWR-TLV seat for $3000, thus making $1000 more on the EWR seats, not to mention the $3500 the LAX-IAH-TLV customer is paying. Does that make sense?

Yes, I basically pulled those numbers out of my head.

I wouldn't be shocked to see CO start IAH-TLV once a few 787's have cut their teeth.

Cheers!
 
nwa744tpa
Posts: 44
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RE: DTW-TLV

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:40 am

Fares to Israel are quite high from the USA, same goes for India-US, so I don't see why NW wouldn't want to start nonstop flights to either locale. Flights to most European cities suffer from huge swings in demand (and price), but flights to Israel/Middle East are pretty stable and command minimum fares of at least $1000 USD for the least expensive fare. It might work...........
 
klwright69
Posts: 2357
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RE: DTW-TLV

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:36 am

[

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 46):

CO's service to TLV is a bit of a special case. Without considering demographics, you might think the twice-daily EWR-TLV flights rely on connecting traffic over the strong EWR hub.

Wrong.

CO could easily fill both EWR-TLV 772's with local O D traffic. NYC is the world's largest Jewish city, to say nothing of Arabs, plus other business and leisure traffic.

Why would CO operate something like IAH-TLV, too? Well, there is a fair amount of traffic nationwide to TLV (of all the types I just mentioned) which could fill a connecting flight. See DL flying ATL-TLV, for example. If CO flew IAH-TLV and filled it with more connecting traffic, it could sell more of its EWR-TLV seats as O D and sell more (potentially high-yielding) seats on routes like LAX-EWR, FLL-EWR, and on and on. As it stands now, a customer might pay, say, $3500 for a J ticket LAX-EWR-TLV. If that customer had the option of flying LAX-IAH-TLV, CO might sell the LAX-EWR seat for $1500 and the EWR-TLV seat for $3000, thus making $1000 more on the EWR seats, not to mention the $3500 the LAX-IAH-TLV customer is paying. Does that make sense?

Yes, I basically pulled those numbers out of my head.

I wouldn't be shocked to see CO start IAH-TLV once a few 787's have cut their teeth.

Cheers!

Maybe CO could add a third EWR-TLV flight to serve the strong local market in addition to serving connecting passenger.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: DTW-TLV

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 46):
I wouldn't be shocked to see CO start IAH-TLV once a few 787's have cut their teeth.

I really think CO shouldnt fight Geography and the local market. Adding a 3rd EWR-TLV would be better than IAH. The local market really isnt there and Geographically Houston is in a very poor location for service from the US to TLV. I could see CO going for a IAH-Far East flight first.

TLV is a market that is served extensivly from the US and really doesnt need many (if any) new markets from the US. LY serves the markets that are the biggest local markets in the US. The biggest local markets to TLV are going to be (in order): NYC, MIA, LAX, PHL, ORD, SFO, BOS, and WAS. Past that, you really need a connection powerhouse like ATL for a flight to TLV. ATL can make it work because of its super hub prescence. I dont know how many other markets could pull it off. I dont think DTW can, IAH would be a little better, but IAH needs service elsewhere first.
It is what it is...