amirs
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True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:47 pm

I was wondering why there is noe replacement for the 757 and the 762. It seems there will be a huge gap between the 739 and the 788.
The 739ER will be able to carry 180 pax 3,200 nautical miles (5,925 km) - two-class layout, 2 aux. tanks.
The 788 will carry around 230 pax over 8000 nm.

1. There is no a/c for 180 - 230 pax range. Like the 752/3 and the 762.
2. There is no a/c that can carry less than 230 pax a distance more than 3,200 nm. This was one of the strongest points of the 757 and the 762.
757ER fly for many airlines across the atlantic.
There are many a/c that flew the 762 to far distances (examples down below):

What is weird is that Airbus will have an even bigger gap between the A321 and the A358. (Even now the A330 is bigger than the 762)


So what the answer? I take it it will not be addressed until 737/320 replacement. Maybe when the 737 replacement arrives they need to start with the larger variant and then go down.
First something to trruly replace the 757 and then go down to 737 replacemnts.







Taken from " Longest 767-200ER Flight " post
BFI-NBO, by Boeing, 7834nm (Discontinued)
GRR-SEZ, by Air Seychelles, 7723nm (Discontinued)
YHZ-MRU, by Air Mauritius, 7575nm (Discontinued)
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_milestones.html
TLV-MIA, by El Al, 5738nm Ding ding! We have a new winner!
CPH-GRU, by SAS, 5606nm (discontinued)
SWF-JED, 5516nm, (unscheduled)
CPH-SIN, by SAS, 5383nm (discontinued)
TLV-ORD, by El Al, 5370nm, (discontinued)
CPH-BKK, by SAS, 5353nm (discontinued)
GRU-FRA, by Varig, 5277nm (discontinued)
TLV-ADW by El Al, 5114 (flown 2-3 times a year for the Israeli P.M.)
GRU-LHR, by Varig, 5095nm (discontinued)
WAW-SIN, by LOT, 5083nm (discontinued)
TLV-YYZ, by El Al, 5030nm
MEX-CDG, by AeroMexico, 5005nm
TLV-JFK by El Al, 4934nm (now only 777 and 744 fly the route)
TLV-BKK, by El Al, 4918 nm
BOG-FRA, by Avianca, 4907nm (discontinued)
MEX-MAD, by AeroMexico, 4903nm
MRU-SYD, by Air Mauritius, 4902nm (discontinued)
MRU-GVA, by Air Mauritius, 4872nm
MRU-ZRH, by Air Mauritius, 4849nm
TLV-YUL by El Al, 4764 nm (discountinued)
MTY-MAD, by AeroMexico, 4704nm
BOG-CDG, by Avianca, 4668nm (discontinued)
MRU-VIE, by Air Mauritius, 4657nm (discontinued)
BOG-LHR, by Avianca, 4575nm (discontinued)
CLO-MAD, by Avianca 4484nm
BUD-BKK, by Malev, 4447nm
TLV-HKG by El Al, 4435nm
IAH-EZE, by Continental, 4400nm
BOG-MAD, by Avianca, 4388nm
SOF-BKK, by Balkan, 4284nm (discontinued)
MRU-HKG, by Air Mauritius, 4171nm (discontinued)
EWR-GRU, by Continental, 4134nm
MEX-GRU, by AeroMexico, 4008nm
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:57 pm

Well, at first glance that does seem a bit odd.

On the other hand, I think the 757 and 767 will be around (in service, rather than in production), for a few more years before there's widespread demand for a replacement.

On the other other hand, there have been a couple of threads recently talking about Boeing's long-term plans for new models. Basically, it sounds like there might be two cross-sections (one single-aisle, one twin-aisle) to cover planes the size of E190 though 757-300, more or less.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:58 pm

The 737RS will likely include a true 757-200 replacement. As for a 757-300/767-200 replacement, that market is quite small, and may not be worth Boeing investing in. The 757-300 was a flop, and after the release of the 767-300ER, sales of the 767-200 slowed down.
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amirs
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
As for a 757-300/767-200 replacement, that market is quite small, and may not be worth Boeing investing in.

There are about 1050 757 delivered and another 250 762.
That doesnt seems small market.
The question is how many of the 757 can be successfully replaced by 739?
 
bobnwa
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 3):
There are about 1050 757 delivered and another 250 762.

I believe he said the market for the 757-300 was small and it was.
 
amirs
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 4):

I believe he said the market for the 757-300 was small and it was.

ok, but still no real replacement for 752.
 
skibum9
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
The 757-300 was a flop

The 757-300 was not a flop. It was released too late in the life of the 757. Carrier demand for the 757 diminished to a point where Boeing shut down the line, thus killing the 757-200 and 300. That does not mean it was a flop. The carriers who have the 300, love them and wish they could get their hands on more. Jut like carriers have realized the true capabilities of the 757-200 and wish they could get a hold of more. So the 757-300 was a victim of bad timing, as demand stopped for the 757 in general, Boeing shut the line down, and now carriers want them again. If the line were still open you would probably see 757-300s in the order list. But it was definitely not a flop.
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1337Delta764
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 5):
ok, but still no real replacement for 752.

As stated, the 737RS will include a 757-200 replacement. If the 737RS is split into two families, the smaller family will probably cover all variants of the 737-600 and 737-700, while the larger familiy will cover all variants of the 737-800, 737-900, and 757-200.
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amirs
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):

As stated, the 737RS will include a 757-200 replacement. If the 737RS is split into two families, the smaller family will probably cover all variants of the 737-600 and 737-700, while the larger familiy will cover all variants of the 737-800, 737-900, and 757-200.

This is all speculation, de facto there is no a/c that is currently offered to replace it.
Even is the737RS will replace it, as I guessed in my original post, it will be many many years ......
Probably not for another 8 years.
 
bobnwa
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 6):
If the line were still open you would probably see 757-300s in the order list. But it was definitely not a flop.

You don't consider Boeing only selling about 30-35 of them total, a financial flop for Boeing?
 
VC10DC10
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 9):
Boeing only selling about 30-35 of them total

Actually 55 of them, all still in service.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 8):
Probably not for another 8 years.

Rumor has it that it should be around 2-3 years sooner than that. The question, I think, becomes whether they start with Y0.75 or Y1.25. If they start with the smaller one, then yes, the 757 replacement is further off, maybe more like the 8 year time frame you mention.
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bmacleod
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
As for a 757-300/767-200 replacement, that market is quite small, and may not be worth Boeing investing in.

Unless Boeing sees a market for a shortened 787, the 787-7 could replace the 767-200. It would probably look like a A310, but with the 787 nose and tail. As far as the 757-300, we'll just see how far the 737 can be stretched..... stretch 
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
amirs
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 11):
Rumor has it that it should be around 2-3 years sooner than that. The question, I think, becomes whether they start with Y0.75 or Y1.25. If they start with the smaller one, then yes, the 757 replacement is further off, maybe more like the 8 year time frame you mention

I take it from your nick, you have a lot of interest in the Y1-3 projects.
I think cnahces are they will be interested in starting with Y1.25
 
bobnwa
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 10):
Actually 55 of them, all still in service.

Still sounds like a financial flop for Boeing.
 
boeingmd82
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 14):
Still sounds like a financial flop for Boeing.

55 more 757s, small development costs, new customers for Boeing products (ATA, Northwest) sounds like a good deal to me.
 
bobnwa
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting Boeingmd82 (Reply 15):
55 more 757s, small development costs, new customers for Boeing products (ATA, Northwest) sounds like a good deal to me.

Northwest, new customer for Boeing products? B377, B720, B707, B727, B747, B752. Sounds like an old regular customer to me. Still think the 753 was a money loser for Boeing.
 
boeingmd82
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 16):
Northwest, new customer for Boeing products? B377, B720, B707, B727, B747, B752. Sounds like an old regular customer to me. Still think the 753 was a money loser for Boeing.

True, but NW did choose the 753 for their DC-10 replacement for many routes when they could have gone all Airbus, the DC-10 application is business that Boeing did not have with NW before the 753. Would NW choose another Boeing product if the 753 did not exist? Who knows. Unless someone from Boeing would like to tell us if the 753 was profitable or not, we're just speculating. Let's see, what is this thread about again?  Smile
 
MCOflyer
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 16):

Bobnwa,

Add the 787 in there.

NW loves its Boeing products the 753 suits them just perfectly for the routes they fly it on.

MCOflyer
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skibum9
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 9):
You don't consider Boeing only selling about 30-35 of them total, a financial flop for Boeing?

No I don't. Now if the 757-300 was available early in the 757 program, like the 767-300 was available early in the 767 program, and it only sold 30-35 copies then you could consider it a flop. However, when you look at the orders, starting when the 757-300 was made available, to when Boeing closed the line (1998 to 2004) Boeing sold a total of 155 757s, 42 were 300s and 113 were 200s. That means the 757-300 represented 38% ot total 757 orders when it was available. How can you call that a flop?

Like I said, both the airlines and Boeing missed the boat. If Boeing offered the 757-300 ealier more frames would have been sold. If the airlines realized the full potential of the 757, in general, earlier, Boeing would not have shut the line down and more 757-300s would have been sold. But bluntly calling the 757-300 a flop is just wrong IMO. Is the 767-400 a flop? No, Boeing did not lose a penny on either of these programs as they were relatively inexpensive programs, particularly the 757-300 as it was just a basic stretch. It's not like they developed an entirely new airplane.

Now when calling a plane a flop, the A380 may fall in that category, based on it current orders, costs to develop and on-going delays. Time will tell there. If they sell enough copies to cover their costs it won't be, but if they can't, which it is looking like that may be the case, that may be a flop.

[Edited 2007-03-15 23:12:16]
Tailwinds!!!
 
VC10DC10
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 19):


That's a very good rebuttal. I have no idea if this chart is correct, but if so it suggests what the 757-300 might have achieved for Boeing and the airlines had it been available earlier: http://www.answers.com/topic/b757-orders-deliveries-jpg
 
dutchjet
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:55 am

The 753 is simply an amazing airplane....an undiscovered gem that came to the market at the wrong time.

As for the issue.....both Airbus and Boeing have a rather large gap between their largest narrowbody (the 739ER or A321) and their smallest narrowbody (soon to be the 788 or A332 - the A332 is not going anywhere for the time being and may continue to be a part of the Airbus lineup even after the A350 is sorted out and introduced to service)....why? Because of the needs and demands of airlines worldwide. Consider that the 762 (and A300/A310) started off as medium haul airliners, designed to move lots of pax over short routes, eventually longer range variants of each of those types was introduced and became the more popular selling models in the family. Also consider that the 757 was originally intended as a 727 replacement with shorter range routes in mind.....the 757 evolved into one of the most versatile airplanes around. But, bottom line, most airlines prefer a minimum of 250 seats in a twin aisle arragnement for longhaul and dont want much more than 175 seats for short haul missions.......thus, the gap. Many wish that Boeing would but the 757 back into production (its not happening for many many reasons)....but the simple fact is that airlines were no longer interested in the type: airlines did innovate and have found more profitable uses for the 757 and it has become a fixture on transatlantic and some US-latin american services, but airlines are using their assets better and would not order more of the type. Boeing really did try very hard to keep the 757 line open, but sales were finished.

Over at Airbus, the A300/A310 were dropped from the model line and not replaced......Airbus offered many alternatives to the airlines to cover this segment: the A330 Lite (a very light shorter range A330 variant), the A305 (the marriage of the A330 fuselage and systems with the A300s wings), the original A350 (which has nothing to do with today's project, basically another A330 spin-off optimized for shorterhaul services)......and none of the projects generated enough interest to go beyond the discussion stage. Airlines had little interest, and many simply ordered A330s and ""misued"" them on shorter haul routes and others added A32X equipment and frequency.

With the move to multiple hub route systems, and increased frequency on shorter haul, the airlines had little need for the A300/A310/757/762.......as for long haul, most airlines seem to agree that if a route cannot be operated on a daily basis from a hub city with an airplane holding 250 passengers, the route is basically not worth flying. In some occassions, less than daily frequency is offered, and on some routes we now see 752s, but in general, for various economic reasons, smaller airplanes are not flying longhaul these days.

Thus, the replacment for the 757 and 762 is as follows:

The 739ER can fly most (but not all) routes once handled by the 757-200.
The 787-3 will indirectly replace the 757-300.
The 787-8 will indirectly replace the 762ER.

I know that the 787s are bigger than the 757/767, but the markets have changed as well.....the 787-3 moves a lot of passengers very effeciently on short to medium haul segments, just like the 753, and the 787-8 is a small widebody that can handle long thin routes, similiar to the 762ER. The successor to the 737NG will certainly offer a variant that can fly 175 passengers up to 4500-5000 miles and will be a more exact 752 replacment.

I
 
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AA777223
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:43 am

I think if the 753 were available today, there would be scores of orders. I still think the answer to LH updating the aircraft on the FRA-LHR route would be to borrow some of the condor 753s. But what do i know?
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dutchjet
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 22):
still think the answer to LH updating the aircraft on the FRA-LHR route would be to borrow some of the condor 753s

Actually, LH did just that quite a few years ago.....LH borrowed a Condor 753 and flew it on certain domestic German routes (such as FRA-MUC and FRA-Berlin) to test operational issues (the long single aisle set up was a concern) and to monitor customer reaction....the aircraft subbed for a LH A300 or A310 (I cant remember)....the result was that LH was impressed with the aircraft, had no problems boarding or disembarking pax with one door and a single aisle, had no problems with turn times, BUT passengers did not like the long single aisle configuration and seemed to prefer the twin aisle widebody arranagement offered by the A300 (I am not sure that if it was fair to compare the A300 in LH configuration to te 753 in Condor high density charter configuration, but thats another story).

LH never placed an order for the 753.
 
Tristarfreak
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:55 am

i think that once the 787 is off the ground (literally  wink  ) they will do something about that either in the form of the long rumored 737 replacement in different variants i.e. the ???-1,???-2,???-3 etc. or in a completely different model but either way i think a model o fill that gap is in the near future
 
osiris30
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 11):
Rumor has it that it should be around 2-3 years sooner than that. The question, I think, becomes whether they start with Y0.75 or Y1.25. If they start with the smaller one, then yes, the 757 replacement is further off, maybe more like the 8 year time frame you mention.

I see my nomeclature for the split Y1 project is catching on LOL. (Y0.75/Y1.25)

Quoting Tristarfreak (Reply 24):
i think that once the 787 is off the ground (literally ) they will do something about that either in the form of the long rumored 737 replacement in different variants i.e. the ???-1,???-2,???-3 etc. or in a completely different model but either way i think a model o fill that gap is in the near future

Basically yes. There will be something in Y1 to address the 757 gap that Boeing will have in the product line. It's just too big a gap for them to leave sitting there for someone else to fill. Now whether the replacement has the same magnitude of (what can best be described as) over thrust I don't know. The 757 has more thrust on the wings than it really needs IMHO. Not sure that will continue down the road, not with the emphasis on shave every percentage point possible from fuel burn.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 21):
The 739ER can fly most (but not all) routes once handled by the 757-200.
The 787-3 will indirectly replace the 757-300.
The 787-8 will indirectly replace the 762ER.

Disagree here. The 787-3 is not IMHo a 757-3 replacement. And the 788 is a replacement for the whole 762/763 lines IMHO. Finally the 739ER while a nice aircraft just cannot do what the 752 is capable of. I think the 'true' 757 replacement will be part of the Y1 package as I stated above.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
dutchjet
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 21):
Thus, the replacment for the 757 and 762 is as follows:

The 739ER can fly most (but not all) routes once handled by the 757-200.
The 787-3 will indirectly replace the 757-300.
The 787-8 will indirectly replace the 762ER.

I know that the 787s are bigger than the 757/767, but the markets have changed as well.....the 787-3 moves a lot of passengers very effeciently on short to medium haul segments, just like the 753, and the 787-8 is a small widebody that can handle long thin routes, similiar to the 762ER. The successor to the 737NG will certainly offer a variant that can fly 175 passengers up to 4500-5000 miles and will be a more exact 757 replacement.



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 25):
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 21):
The 739ER can fly most (but not all) routes once handled by the 757-200.
The 787-3 will indirectly replace the 757-300.
The 787-8 will indirectly replace the 762ER.

Disagree here. The 787-3 is not IMHo a 757-3 replacement. And the 788 is a replacement for the whole 762/763 lines IMHO. Finally the 739ER while a nice aircraft just cannot do what the 752 is capable of. I think the 'true' 757 replacement will be part of the Y1 package

Thanks for quoting half of a statement......and then disagreeing with the half that you quoted.
 
osiris30
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 26):
Thanks for quoting half of a statement......and then disagreeing with the half that you quoted.

And thanks for the snarky sarcastic remark. I could have quoted your whole post and said the same thing. I disagree with your assessment of the 753/783 replacement concept, regardless of how markets have changed in your mind. I view the 788 as a 767 replacement en-mass with no need for distinction in any way, shape or form with the possible expcetion of the 764, and finally as I stated above, I disagree the 739ER is a 752 replacement. I do agree regarding Y1.

I'm still miffed at how snipping the post for brevity is somehow worthy of your attitude though.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
cba
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 14):

Still sounds like a financial flop for Boeing.

Doesn't cost a lot of money to install a fuselage plug into the 752. The 753 project likely had a very low break-even number, and I'd bet that 55 is beyond that number.
 
dutchjet
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 28):

Doesn't cost a lot of money to install a fuselage plug into the 752. The 753 project likely had a very low break-even number, and I'd bet that 55 is beyond that number.

True..........but Boeing did hope to sell far more than 55 examples of the 753; the 753 was not the success that it should have been due to the fact that it was the wrong plane at the wrong time. It is an undiscovered gem, the operating costs on a per pax basis for the 753 are nothing short of amazing, sad, if only it came to market a few years earlier.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 27):
And thanks for the snarky sarcastic remark.



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 27):
I'm still miffed at how snipping the post for brevity is somehow worthy of your attitude though.

Relax......dont you think that you are over-reacting? How is:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 26):
Thanks for quoting half of a statement......and then disagreeing with the half that you quoted.

a snarky and sarcastic remark that left you miffed. The second part of the quote further explained my position....and we can certainly agree to disagree on whether the 783 is the ""ideological"" successor to the 753 and the like. It was not my intent to upset you.
 
osiris30
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 29):
a snarky and sarcastic remark that left you miffed. The second part of the quote further explained my position....and we can certainly agree to disagree on whether the 783 is the ""ideological"" successor to the 753 and the like. It was not my intent to upset you.

Alright, forgotten. Just came across as you nitpicking the posting style rather than the content. Call it a pet peeve of mine (seen too many people attempt to deflect posts with that sort of rubish). Sounded snide, but if that wasn't the intention, then I withdraw my objection to your objection  Wink

And yes I think we may have to agree the 783 is the ideoligcal success to the 753. I see the 783 filling the niche like a more modern 747SP (with said niche having moved down in size). I guess my disgreement comes from the fact that I think you pigeon hole the 753 a bit too much in your assessment. Frankly I don't see the 783 as being nearly as good as the 753, and I think many airlines tend to agree given the fact so few have ordered the 783 yet would kill people to get more 753s.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
dutchjet
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 30):
And yes I think we may have to agree the 783 is the ideoligcal success to the 753. I see the 783 filling the niche like a more modern 747SP (with said niche having moved down in size). I guess my disgreement comes from the fact that I think you pigeon hole the 753 a bit too much in your assessment. Frankly I don't see the 783 as being nearly as good as the 753, and I think many airlines tend to agree given the fact so few have ordered the 783 yet would kill people to get more 753s

Did you mean the 747SR.....

It will be interesting to see if the 783 gains a market outside of the Japanese domestic sector. Intially I never thought that the 783 would find a market outside of Japan, but it does seem that many airlines worldwide (including some US legacy carriers) are giving the 783 a long hard look for high demand shorterhaul operations. An interesting situation to watch.
 
osiris30
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RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 31):
Did you mean the 747SR.....

Ya.. I did.. LOL.. You know the one they built to haul gobs of people 5 miles in Japan  Wink

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 31):
It will be interesting to see if the 783 gains a market outside of the Japanese domestic sector. Intially I never thought that the 783 would find a market outside of Japan, but it does seem that many airlines worldwide (including some US legacy carriers) are giving the 783 a long hard look for high demand shorterhaul operations. An interesting situation to watch.

I do think the 783 will have *some* success in certain markets. You might be hard pressed to beat it for major hub transcon flights (lax->jfk as a random example). Where I think the 783 will fall down is on the trans-atlantic style missed the 753 is currently running. That's where I see it's Y1 successor taking over (and expanding). Airlines seem to want to be able to exploit nice long thing routes today that they would have never thought about 10 years ago.

The 783 might also be intersting somewhere like LHR where slots are at a premium. If you can use some of those instead of some of today's widebodies in areas where schedule sensitivity is lower then you might see a big win there.

Having said that I expect the 783 to be the worst selling member of the 787 family.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 29):
True..........but Boeing did hope to sell far more than 55 examples of the 753; the 753 was not the success that it should have been due to the fact that it was the wrong plane at the wrong time. It is an undiscovered gem, the operating costs on a per pax basis for the 753 are nothing short of amazing, sad, if only it came to market a few years earlier.

 checkmark 

Correct. It was expected to do a lot better than it did; it's timing was wrong. However, the few airlines that do operate the aircraft seem to love the things.

Regarding both the 752 and 753, it's a shame that airlines are only utilizing its full ability right now. Transcons and high-capacity short hauls are more economically served by the 321 and 739ER. The real strength of the 757 comes in that it can haul a full load of passengers and cargo further than 3000nm, and can take off like a rocket from just about any runway.
 
curticool
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:45 am

RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:43 am

They Wont Replace It For 10 Years Or More Beacause Of Its Major Sucsess
N102DA
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 3):
There are about 1050 757 delivered and another 250 762.
That doesnt seems small market.

It is a "small" market when you put the sales environment at the time into context.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 3):
The question is how many of the 757 can be successfully replaced by 739?

The vast majority... over approx. 90% of 757 flights.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 8):
This is all speculation, de facto there is no a/c that is currently offered to replace it.

The 739ER.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 11):
Rumor has it that it should be around 2-3 years sooner than that.

I still believe what Boeing is saying... 2014/15 EIS.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
BUT passengers did not like the long single aisle configuration and seemed to prefer the twin aisle widebody arranagement

And that is partly why some Y1 models will be twin-aisle... I am guessing for >150-seat.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 25):
Finally the 739ER while a nice aircraft just cannot do what the 752 is capable of.

I agree but that excess 752 capability is used on less than 10% of all 752 flights.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
amirs
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 35):
Quoting Amirs (Reply 8):
This is all speculation, de facto there is no a/c that is currently offered to replace it.

The 739ER.

The 739ER cannot replace an aircraft that flies farther (by more than 700 nm ) and carries more people more comfortably.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:32 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 36):
The 739ER cannot replace an aircraft that flies farther (by more than 700 nm ) and carries more people more comfortably

But the 739ER can replace the 752 on 90% of the missions that it flies........at lower costs. Thus the 739ER is defacto successor from Boeing for the 752 market. For the remaining 10% of the missions which cannot be flown by the 739ER (say transatlantic), Boeing offers no alternative at the moment (and nor does Airbus).

As far as comfort, sinced the 739ER and 757 share the same fuselage cross-section, so comfort is not an issue.....as to how many rows of seats an airline installs into an airplane and as to the comfort of those seats and other pax amenities, thats all up to the airline. I am sure that a 739ER operated by CO will be more comfortable than a 757 operated by an EU or UK charter carrier.

As pointed out above in many posts, the largest and most capable variants of Boeing's successor to the 737NG will include offerings that can handle all 757 missions and at lower operating costs.
 
amirs
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 37):
As far as comfort, sinced the 739ER and 757 share the same fuselage cross-section, so comfort is not an issue

Then how come it always feels tighter in a 737?
I always fell more comfortable in a 757.
Not just because of the seat pitch.
 
Geo772
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:40 pm

RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:47 am

At the smaller end of the market I see the natural replacements as the 737-900ER for the shorter routes, and the 737-700ER for the very thin long routes.

As has already been said before most of the routes the 757 operates on are within the range of the 739 which can operate the route more economically. Granted the cargo carrying capacity of the 737 is not that great, but the cost reduction in many cases will more cover the reduction in revenue.
For the long thin routes the 737-700ER offers a sensible capacity in my view and could open up new markets where the 757 either was too big or didn't have the range.

As for the 767 market, there is no real replacement to the 762(er) is size. However the 783 offers a good transcontinental package, and would also be well suited to higher density regional routes in Europe and the Far East. It would be better than the 788 for these routes because of the lower weight, thus lower charges to the airlines.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 38):

Then how come it always feels tighter in a 737?
I always fell more comfortable in a 757.
Not just because of the seat pitch.

Dont know......could be the interior design scheme (different types of side panels, bins and lighting can create a different atrmosphere on an airplane), the fact that the 757 is longer could influence your perception.......these things can effect the illusion of space on an airplane. This is very serious stuff.....for example, Boeing spent a lot of money designing the 777-look interior for the 737/757 because the shapes and styles of the new interior do make the airplane feel roomier.

That being said, the 737 and 757 (and the 707, 720 and 727 before them) all share the same fuselage cross-section so this could be a case of ""mind over matter"". By the way, you would not be the first one who felt this way, many passengers think that the 757 is roomier than a 737. Regards.
 
amirs
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 39):



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 40):
By the way, you would not be the first one who felt this way, many passengers think that the 757 is roomier than a 737. Regards.

I was not just a pax, I worked as a f/a for a few years.
It was always crammed working in the 737's. It seemed like the galleys were always tight and the aisles were thinner. Maybe they just had roomier seats in the 737 so they took more room and made the aisles narrower.
But that doesnt expalin why the galleys in the 757 were rommier.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 41):
But that doesnt expalin why the galleys in the 757 were rommier

The 737s you worked on probably did have smaller galleys than the 757.....thats possible, galleys are an airline specific item.

As for the rest, I dont know.......the 737 and 757 have the same fuselage cross-section, in Y class 3+3 seating with each seat being about 17 inches wide, aisles and seating tracks are usually exactly the same, etc. It goes back to what I said before, the shorter 737 cabin can make the 757 ""feel"" smaller and the sidepanel and overhead bin style can affect the illusion of space on an airplane.
 
Geo772
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:40 pm

RE: True 757 And 762 Replacements

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 41):
It was always crammed working in the 737's. It seemed like the galleys were always tight and the aisles were thinner. Maybe they just had roomier seats in the 737 so they took more room and made the aisles narrower.
But that doesnt expalin why the galleys in the 757 were rommier.

having just looked up the internal cabin dimensions on Boeing's site, the internal cabin width is the same on both aircraft as previously said.

However the cabin in the 757 is marginally taller, most likely due to the different overhead bins and ceiling trim. The difference is less than an inch though.

Galleys are an airline option and given the extra range of the 757 this could well explain the difference in size.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,

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