collin260
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Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:57 am

Approximately how much was a ticket on BA Concorde from New York to London?
The approximate flight time today will be 6 hours in First Class and 12 hours in Economy.
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting Collin260 (Thread starter):
Approximately how much was a ticket on BA Concorde from New York to London?

When? Prices in 1980 were quite different to prices in 2000...
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
XXXX10
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:10 am

It depends when, by OCT 2003 the standard price was £4,000 one way, allthough there were deals that could be done, a consuer tv show here in the Uk showed how people were paying much less by booking there Concorde trip as part of a longer sector connecting through LHR.

Obviously the ticket price was less the further back in time you go.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:34 am

When BA first announced the phaseout of Concorde operations just about 4 years ago, the initial "celebration" fares were discounted way down to as low as $3,999. USD for a round trip, although that offer was only one way on Concorde with the other leg on a 747 in coach. If you wanted to do the round trip entirely on Concorde, the fare rose to $6,999. USD. Both were a big discount from the standard fare which wa normally around $6000 one way and over $10,500 round trip. I did the lowest offer naturally but even one way on Concorde was a wonderful experience.
 
Tristarfreak
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:33 am

I sadly never got to fly on the beauty
 
Viscount724
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:22 am

When I made my one Concorde flight on BA JFK-LHR in July 1989, they sometimes had a special fare for airline employees which at that time was USD499 one way. Being used to paying almost nothing to fly as an airline employee, that seemed like a lot of money but I decided to splurge and the experience was worth it.
 
SpencerII
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:29 am

BA would occasionally place free concorde tickets in the give aways at some of the Interline Parties that used to be held for airline employees. My name got drawn for a set, and that is how I got to go on the Concorde. This was in 1987
 
dutchjet
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:55 am

R class fares were expensive, but from time to time there were offers to be found that signficantly reduced the cost of Concorde travel. I was lucky enough to fly the BA Concorde one-way and return by sea on the QE2.....and the upgrade price for Concorde was ""reasonable"" due to a bulk sale agreement maintained by Cunard and the fact that I flew over the summer months when Concorde demand decreased (vacation time for many). I also flew the AF Concorde on an attractive offer that allowed Concorde travel one-way and biz class on the return......for the price of a standard J class return ticket (this was very low season travel and the offer was valid on a few limited days in January). Standard walk up fares for Concorde were very costly: R (Supersonic) Class was generally 20% over F (First) Class.....see what a F class ticket on BA costs for JFK-LHR these days, add 20%, and then sit down and have a drink because you will be shocked at the cost.

Concorde was a luxury for the rich and famous and for high-powered biz people that could justify the expense because time=money......and for some crazy a.netters who searched high and low for (almost) affordable offers.
 
COEWRNJ
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:01 am

Did BA or AF allow you to redeem FF Miles for tickets on Concorde?
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:07 am

Yes of course you could redeem miles, it was 160,000 miles return with AF, and in summer they ran a promotion where you could get 2 tickets if travelling together. I did it once with a friend and it was the best time of my life.
 
COEWRNJ
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:31 am

160,000 miles isn't too bad. I just spent 120,000 one way coach, one way BizFirst on CO EWR-HKG-EWR. What were the mileage bonuses like when paying full fare?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting COEWRNJ (Reply 8):
Did BA or AF allow you to redeem FF Miles for tickets on Concorde?

As well as DL, QF, and several other airlines.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Rivet42
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:52 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
When I made my one Concorde flight on BA JFK-LHR in July 1989, they sometimes had a special fare for airline employees which at that time was USD499 one way. Being used to paying almost nothing to fly as an airline employee, that seemed like a lot of money but I decided to splurge and the experience was worth it.

BA did have a general 'ID90' fare, which not so many people seemed to know about (they knew plenty about the free courier tickets, for which there was a lengthy queue!!), and when I did a Concorde ID90 a couple of months before the end was announced, it was GBP500. Not bad, IMO, for the flight of a life-time. The flight was half empty, too, so it was even more enjoyable.

PhiL P
I travel, therefore I am.
 
ptcflyer
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:43 am

Flew AF Concorde in May 2002 with my spouse. JFK-CDG. Used Delta FF Skymiles.

160,000 per ticket round trip. Included domestic first class connection from/to ATL.

The flights were 1/3 full both ways.

Could "pick my date" for redeeming. Lots of availability.

Experience of a lifetime.

Was invited to the cockpit during the flight....

Sad that the experience may not be repeatable in my lifetime.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:16 pm

In the late '90s, a one way on BA JFK-LHR was $7400 (USD) all in.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
carduelis
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:43 pm

You could have tried what I did for my 50th birthday - LHR JFK LHR on the same day!

At the time BA had genuine Day Return Fares which were £600 less than the usual rate!
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:19 pm

I believe you got 200% base miles for flying paid on BA Concorde.

I saved enough AF miles for a Concorde ticket in 2003.. to find the canceled it.. today ive still got those miles, plus an add 500 miler here and there to keep them valid. My alliance is Star so these miles are "shelved" until I figure what to use them for.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
shankly
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:53 pm

The missus and me flew LHR-JFK-LHR in August 2003, out on BA001 (G-BOAF) and back in Club World (744 top deck) for £7,000 total

Best £7,000 grand I ever spent or ever will spend
L1011 - P F M
 
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Stitch
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:04 pm

Most of my travel on her was paid for by my employer, but in the mid-1990's I booked a tour to LHR on BA and the airfare part was around $4,000USD for R over and J back or another $1000 got you in R both ways, which of course I took.  Smile
 
jetfuel
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:27 pm

I think I paid $400 for a joy ride out of Oshkosh with BA - up over Canada and return
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
twa727
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 3):
When BA first announced the phaseout of Concorde operations just about 4 years ago, the initial "celebration" fares were discounted way down to as low as $3,999. USD for a round trip, although that offer was only one way on Concorde with the other leg on a 747 in coach.

British Airways had a limited number of those tickets (one way on Concorde, return in coach) for just $3000, and I was lucky enough to get one of those (I heard they sold out in just 24 hours after the announcement). I'm sure some people thought I was crazy for deciding in just a few hours to spend that much money on a plane ticket, but those who knew me weren't surprised (though perhaps a bit jealous). I got a "good" seat (row 4, window) and it was well worth the money to have had that experience. BA was even nice enough to upgrade me to World Traveler Plus on the way back when I asked; however, the woman who checked me in wondered how I ended up in coach for the return when I was on Concorde for the first leg.
 
Fyano773
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
Quoting COEWRNJ (Reply 8):
Did BA or AF allow you to redeem FF Miles for tickets on Concorde?

As well as DL, QF, and several other airlines.

Yes, AeroMexico offered the JFK-CDG leg on Concorde as well:

MEX-JFK-CDG = 320,000 kms Premier (200,000 miles) per ticket r/t.

Fyano
 
ARGinLON
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting COEWRNJ (Reply 10):
160,000 miles isn't too bad. I just spent 120,000 one way coach, one way BizFirst on CO EWR-HKG-EWR. What were the mileage bonuses like when paying full fare?

But how much easier is to get miles today compared to 5-10 years ago?
 
dutchjet
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 22):

But how much easier is to get miles today compared to 5-10 years ago?

Its easier to earn miles today, with all of the tie-in promotions, alliance deals, hotel offers, etc..........sadly, its harder to use those miles today as airlines are far more careful with allocations and inventory of award seats, especially in the premium classes.
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:04 am

Our best deal ex Portugal (FAO or LIS or OPO / LON / NYC / LON / FAO or LIS or OPO) on BA was one way Club / one way Concorde for EUR 2000.00 . This was when she was back in service after the Paris crash.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
zrs70
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:14 pm

In 1999, the one way LHR-JFK was about $6000. But I bought a ticket that went:

Pisa-Gatwick (BA, C)
Heathrow-JFK (BA, Concorde)
JFL-Los Angeles (UA, F)

this one way, multi-city from Pisa to Los Angeles was only $3500
17 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2016
 
GDB
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:39 pm

As stated, the standard fare on this scheduled service, was 1st Class + 20%
Interesting to read many of the responses and the various ways of getting a ticket, if you were not one of the 80% of high end business traveller that made up a JFK load, or one of the 15% of 'Celeb or related'. Most business pax were on annual corporate travel accounts, unlike the 'Celeb and realated' ones.

Of course, the alternative to this, was a charter trip, the basic 'round the bay' from LHR-or several times a year, other UK airports. Through all the others, from tourist trips worldwide and the ultimate one-the Round The World charters.
In the late 1990's, around 30-40 LHR-LHR 'Round The Bays' were operated a year, an example of the most numerous type of charter.

Charters were of course, of a lower priority to scheduled services-the scheduled ones making up some 90% of BA Concorde revenue.
Not having the standby aircraft-unless it was a high profile political VIP one, as time went on, and before the AF accident, BA looked to cutting charters back, since the amount of airframe life used was not in proportion to their revenue.
In the end, events, culminating in the real killer for us, Sept 11th, ended charters until the weeks leading up to retirement.
(But not long after the retirement annoucement, the scheduled services filled right up and were in effect, given the reason most of the pax were now flying on it, charters of a sort).
 
LimaNiner
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:32 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
Concorde was a luxury for the rich and famous and for high-powered biz people that could justify the expense because time=money

There was a very interesting tidbit in the NOVA episode "Supersonic Dreams":

"JOCK LOWE: We did some research which showed that the Concorde passengers actually didn't know how much the fare was. When we asked them to guess how much it was, they guessed that it was higher than it actually was, so we just started to charge them what they thought they were paying anyway."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/concorde/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3203_concorde.html

Unfortunately, the episode is not available online from the PBS website...
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:01 pm

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 27):
so we just started to charge them what they thought they were paying anyway."

 biggrin 

Quoting GDB (Reply 26):

On a Saturday in April 1995 I saw Concorde at DFW --- thought "odd" -- turns out it was said RTW charter, appropriately Flight 1995.


Didn't AF have CDG loop charters as well?
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
GDB
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:54 am

Flying Texan, yes AF did Round The Worlds, in fact they did more than of them than us.
The last BA one, operated by G-BOAD in 1999, was seen as the last BA one even then.

I suspect charters made up more % of revenue for AF, than BA's roughly 10%
They had a smaller scheduled opean, single JFK daily each way after 1982, but for most of Concorde's life, BA did double daily JFK's, plus the winter weekend schedule to BGI between the late 1980's to the end, up to 1994 a 3 x weekly to IAD, (AF gave this one up in 1982).
 
UAL747
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:27 am

Probably the best "deal" on Concorde was on their "Around the World" charters. My grandparents did this, it was $50,000 per person. But damn, one way on the concorde to London from JFK was about 5-10,000. The $50,000 included 5 star hotel stays in various cities around the world. If I had the cash back then, I would have loved to do that.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 29):
up to 1994 a 3 x weekly to IAD

Don't forget MIA... I often wondered if, utilizing the same techniques later employed to BGI, if that one could've been doine nonstop as well?

I figured you'd prolly know-- was it ever considered?

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 30):
Probably the best "deal" on Concorde was on their "Around the World" charters.

Depends on how one would define "best deal", considering it was possible to ride one of AF's weekend supersonic loops for 95% less money than that...
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Jeremy
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
When I made my one Concorde flight on BA JFK-LHR in July 1989, they sometimes had a special fare for airline employees which at that time was USD499 one way. Being used to paying almost nothing to fly as an airline employee, that seemed like a lot of money but I decided to splurge and the experience was worth it.

When I saw this, I chose not to splurge.
Oh, how I regret that decision!
You are now free to be sexually harassed and then terminated for filing a complaint--Southwest Airlines to me.
 
mirrodie
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 12):
BA did have a general 'ID90' fare, which not so many people seemed to know about (they knew plenty about the free courier tickets, for which there was a lengthy queue!!), and when I did a Concorde ID90 a couple of months before the end was announced, it was GBP500. Not bad, IMO,

Definitely not bad at all!

Quoting Jetfuel,reply=19I think I paid $400 for a joy ride out of Oshkosh with BA - up over Canada and return[/quote]

That's probably the best way to do it. And I am sure the pilots had a bit more fun flying around for OshKosh as well.

[quote=Twa727
(Reply 20):
British Airways had a limited number of those tickets (one way on Concorde, return in coach) for just $3000, and I was lucky enough to get one of those

back in 2003, I flew one way WT+, return on Concorde. Best $1500. ever spent.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
retrolivery
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:45 am

In 1994, My mother was fortunate enough to fly roundtrip JFK-CDG on the AF Concorde on business for the International Monetary Fund. However, it was on the IMF's tab (where she still works) back in the days when all Fund travel was F Class, no matter what. Nowadays, they have a "one class above economy" situation (meaning travel on BA has declined significantly :-P). She even got miles for the run (somewhere in the neighborhood of 22,000 with DL, IIRC)- that has got to be the deal of a lifetime.
A3, AA, AC, AI, AK, AM, AP, AZ, B6, BA, CO, DL, EK, EY, FL, FI, FR, KL, KM, LH, MA, MH, MS, OA, OK, OS, SR, TA, TG, U2,
 
GDB
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RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:10 am

Concorde Boy (good to see you back), not sure on that one, bit before my time on the fleet, the IAD-MIA run ended in 1991, I was involved from 1997.
However, I suspect LHR-MIA would have been marginal to say the least, BGI of course had the high altitude equatorial conditions, cooler, thus boosting range.
I also think that MIA was added to make the IAD run more profitable, BA were loathe to give up the IAD route, though the JFK one starting 18 months after IAD must have had an effect.

In the end, BA did give it up, my first flight on the bird was IAD-LHR in November 1993, it was far from full.
What a comparison with the 3 commercial sectors I did in 2002, but post Sept 11, the double daily could not be justified loads wise, just a single. But even when quite or very full, a single daily could not get the revenue to support the operation in the medium term, in that crisis like business market, add in the impending rise in support costs, well we know what happaned next.

I'll always blame Bin Laden and those 19 men, for Concorde's slightly early retirement. (Even without that, and/or the AF crash/grounding, we'd have probably retired it by now, or would be about to).
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 35):
I'll always blame Bin Laden and those 19 men, for Concorde's slightly early retirement. (Even without that, and/or the AF crash/grounding, we'd have probably retired it by now, or would be about to).

Indeed...
know anything about the oil price threshold that supersonic ops could've tolerated? I'd imagine leading up to the days of nearly $80/barrel oil, BA must've calculated the point at which it would become cost prohibitive to op, no?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Rivet42
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:14 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 35):
but post Sept 11, the double daily could not be justified loads wise, just a single. But even when quite or very full, a single daily could not get the revenue to support the operation in the medium term, in that crisis like business market, add in the impending rise in support costs, well we know what happaned next.

In actual fact, it wasn't quite so - whilst the Concorde fleet was grounded, some of the flight crew were redeployed/retrained, and the opportunity was taken to perform a cabin refit. (Indeed, not all the Concordes returned to service in 2001 - G-BOAA and G-BOAB never flew again after being grounded in August 2000, being cannibalised to keep the remainder serviceable.)

By the time the service was resumed, it was not operationally possible to run a twice daily, and so it was realigned into a single LHR-JFK-LHR each day, with a standby aircraft at LHR in case there was any technical issue with the nominated aircraft (it was quite odd watching two Concordes being towed to T4 each morning, only for one to take off, whilst the other was towed back to 'base'). Punctuality was seen as a key issue, but ironically, the reduction in frequency also contributed to the service's eventual demise, as it was no longer possible to do a day-trip from JFK to LHR, which had been a key selling point prior to the AF crash. Exec.s not being allowed to travel R class post 9-11 was undoubtedly at least as significant, but it wasn't the economic downturn alone.

PhiL P

[Edited 2007-03-20 02:37:28]
I travel, therefore I am.
 
ARGinLON
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:26 pm

RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
Its easier to earn miles today, with all of the tie-in promotions, alliance deals, hotel offers, etc..........sadly, its harder to use those miles today as airlines are far more careful with allocations and inventory of award seats, especially in the premium classes.

Still... the balance still favors the consumer and not the airlines.
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Concorde Ticket Price

Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:59 am

Rivet, I was there at the time, saw all this at close hand.
We had always had a standby for a scheduled service, usually (hopefully), the standby was towed over to T4, sometimes ramp space considerations kept it at base.

Pre Sept 11th, (which happened just 6 days after the return of the types C of A), the plan was to certainly mod 6 of the aircraft, though with a gap after nos. 4 & 5 (OAD and OAC), test fit the first full cabin refit on OAB, then return that to service.
However, pre Sept 11th, the intention was to do OAD and OAC at the same time (which we did with nos.2 & 3, OAE and OAG), but this was amended to doing OAC after OAD.
In the original timescale then, OAB would have been back by summer 2002, the target was to definately acheive this prior to the winter 02 season starting late October, when the full JFK double daily would resume.

With the prior intention to reduce charters, OAA would be returned to cover for those that we would still do, the hope for this to be by end 2003.

It was intended, from when it was announced in 1999, to do the 'Project Rocket' cabin upgrade (always intended to be the third and last BA one), in two parts. The easier part, the new seats, carpets, general cabin decoration, then the challenging new lavs, galleys, lighting, cabin displays, would follow.
The galleys came out heavier than planned, more important after the tank mod refit (though the 8 new mainwheel tyres reduced weight by 160kg).

The full cabin trial fit commenced on OAB in summer 2002, now the intention was to hopefully have OAB back in the pack by 2003. Difficulties, not uncommon in these things, with the 2nd stage re-fit, a shortage of staff, the need to concentrate on the day to day more, had this abandoned in November 2002.
By then, it was suspected that the effect of Sept 11, would maybe mean a Concorde retirement in late 2004.
So dropping the labour and costs of the 2nd stage re-fit might have been linked to this too.
We'd have to sign a new support agreement with the major vendors-the biggest being EADS/BAE, in 2005 anyway.

All the planning for a definate 6 aircraft re-fit, the double JFK dalies to return by late 2002, was changed on Sept 11th 2001, for me and 99 other Concorde staff, this day had another ironic aspect; Concorde Operational Evaluation Flifgt (by GDB Sep 15 2001 in Trip Reports)

The above TR was written a few days later, when we had indications that the return to service would carry on, if delayed some.
I guess most of us knew though, that the operation would inevitably be curtailed, unless loads went right back to normal.

Also, prior Sept 11th, the intention was to operate Concorde until 2006/7, not a fixed plan, more an intention.
After that, BA at least (with their far higher hrs/cycles on Concorde), would have to commit to 'Re-Life 2', an expensive structural inspection programme, with some new build elevons, rudders, intake ramps and lower body panels, as well as new avionic items as needed by legislation.
Re-Life 1 in the mid 1990's, had shown few structural items of any concern, this allowed the 'supersonic cycle' limit to go from the original 6700, to 8500. Re-life would increase this to 10000.
In real terms, had the BA operation stayed the same less some charters, that meant retirement averaging at around 2011-13.
This was ended by the costs of the grounding and mod programme.

A decision on Re-life 2, prior to the AF accident, was needed in 2004. The grounding and expected lower utlisation as the fleet returned to normal, would put this back to 2006, but it was a moot point by then.

In reality, various new work packages, largely ageing aircraft and most not even Concorde specfic, would push up costs over two years from 2003, for BA, by over $20 Million.
Post Sept 11th, that was a blow, it also prompted AF to decide to pull the plug, which would be terminal whenever it happaned, one airline could not reasonably carry the whole, specialised, expensive support.
The 2002/3 period was terrible for BA's premier travel packages agreed with corporate customers, not only for Concorde, but 1st class too.
That's why BA did, at the time seemingly stupidly, moved the BA001 to 18.30, more the BA003 time, to try and gain a more lesuire market, whilst the business one hopefully recovered. Then, the double daily back, BA001 back 10.30, the 18.30 being BA003 again.
As it turned out, too many events, Concorde, airline industry and geopolitical related, all too close to each other.

Concordeboy, as the fuel costs rocketed in 2004 onwards, I and others I'm sure, thought that 'this could have killed us if we were still flying'.

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