SKY1
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Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:13 am

From Boeing.es:

Airplanes in the Boeing 737 size range will account for 70 percent of all commercial jetliners delivered to Spanish airlines over the next 20 years. Fifteen to sixteen percent will be twin-aisle airplanes like the Boeing 777 and 787. Eleven percent will be smaller regional jets while the Boeing 747 size or larger represents three to four percent of the market


Los aviones de pasillo único del tamaño del Boeing 737 sumarán el 70% de todos los reactores comerciales entregados a las aerolíneas españolas en los próximos 20 años. Entre un 15 y un 16% serán aviones de doble pasillo como el Boeing 777 y 787. El 11% serán reactores regionales más pequeños, mientras que la categoría del Boeing 747 o tamaño superior representa entre un 3 y un 4% del mercado



Since A380 is too big for IB, I see this Boeing forecast like dropping a hint to IB.

Obviously, neither UX nor JK don't need a 747 airliner size.


In English: Boeing Projects $36 Billion Market for New Airplanes in Spain

In Spanish: Boeing Estima en 36.000 Millones de Dólares el Mercado Español de Aviones Nuevos
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corey07850
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:27 am

I think you're stretching a bit here...
 
SKY1
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:40 am

No.

Even IB is saying for some routes the A346 is a bit small. They need, at least 4 or 6 bigger planes than the exiting Iberia's largest aircraft.
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EI321
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:43 am

............And I was all excited whan I saw the title!
 
SKY1
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:06 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 3):
And I was all excited whan I saw the title!

Did I say IB will buy the 747-8I for sure?  Yeah sure

This is a forecast from Boeing for the Spanish Market. IF they (Boeing) are saying for the SPANISH Market "Boeing 747 size or larger represents three to four percent" ...what might you think? That forecast is for UX?

IF Boeing believes there is 0 chance they will say nothing for sure. And again: IB has said many many times the A380 are too large. I don't know IB will buy any 747-8I, but I believe there are more chances to see 747-8 with IB colours before A380.
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:22 am

I think Boeing has a better chance with the 787 at IB than the 748I.
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:25 am

Interesting piece......but the fact that Boeing projects that 3 to 4 percent of new airplanes for the Spanish market will be 747 sized (or larger) does not lead me to believe that IB will be ordering the 748I any time soon. Sorry, I just dont see the connection.
 
SKY1
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:03 am

The forecasts % in annual traffic growth must be also taken into account. According to Boeing during 2005-2025 the most natural IB market, Europe-LatinAmerica will grow 5,1% per year ...I remember IB is the leader on this market

http://www.boeing.es/website_2/pages...e_17003/uploads/CMO%20final(6).pdf (page 8)

It's in Spanish language, but it's easy to understand as there are many figures.

Honestly, I don't think IB will have on the mid-term (within 3 or 5 years) an unique A-340 fleet for the long-haul market. And I don't think nobody believe such thing.

[Edited 2007-03-16 03:15:40]
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LTU932
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:36 am

I would have thought IB would rather look into the A380, but given their apparent interest in the 747-8I, I presume even the A380 is too big for them. I do like how "Boeing 747-856I" would sound.  Wink

It would be nice to see the 747 make a comeback at IB. I could see it serve Central America (especially SJO and PTY, the perhaps two biggest Central American markets) in the future, if they do go for the 747.
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
Airplanes in the Boeing 737 size range will account for 70 percent of all commercial jetliners delivered to Spanish airlines over the next 20 years. Fifteen to sixteen percent will be twin-aisle airplanes like the Boeing 777 and 787. Eleven percent will be smaller regional jets while the Boeing 747 size or larger represents three to four percent of the market

I really don't trust these figures. Spanair has gone down the line of operating the A320 family, as has Vueling, ClickAir and Iberia... so that leaves Air Europa who are a fairly dedicated Boeing customer to be ordering a lot of 737 sized aircraft. The time period is completely ambiguous anyway, and it's just about as good as saying what they would like to see happen in the next 20 years.

The 748 could make sense for IB though, it sits nicely in that gap between the 346 and the 388, but there has been a rift between the two companies for a while, so I'm not sure if Boeing could offer a sweet deal and smooth things over. Still though, considering the demand for flights to South America from the Iberian Peninsular, it would not surprise me if IB did purchase, a small fleet of 380's.


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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 9):
I really don't trust these figures. Spanair has gone down the line of operating the A320 family, as has Vueling, ClickAir and Iberia... so that leaves Air Europa who are a fairly dedicated Boeing customer to be ordering a lot of 737 sized aircraft.

737 sized aircraft would seem to include A320s. They aren't going to mention the competitions products in their forecasts.
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:06 pm

note that while there might be a "market" for a certain aircraft size, and the Airline might admit a "need" for that size of aircraft, it does NOT mean they will buy it.

They might run the numbers and find that the 748 and A380 both make no sense in the limited numbers they need, and thus choose to under serve a couple of routes instead of taking on the risk of the new type.

I do think places like LH Technik will make it easier for airlines to operate smaller fleets in this class, but honestly its a big risk getting 4-5 of something that size if you only have a couple routes to use it on. Better IMO to get a couple smaller planes, or talk someone into codesharing 1/2 the load on one of their smaller planes, and 1/2 on yours.
 
Asturias
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
mientras que la categoría del Boeing 747 o tamaño superior representa entre un 3 y un 4% del mercado

Says Boeing. I think all medium sized airlines like IB are going for the 350/787 size with more frequency than bigger planes in the future. The 380/747-8 are too large for IB.

I can see them serving the Spanish market in the forms of charters over the tourist season, but not in regular revenue flights. Iberia is not Emirates. Thankfully.  Wink

Boeing wasn't necessarily referring to Iberia when they talk about the Spanish market.

saludos

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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 5):
I think Boeing has a better chance with the 787 at IB than the 748I.

 bouncy 

It's gonna be a good year for Boeing. (IB included.)
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 9):
it would not surprise me if IB did purchase, a small fleet of 380's

That's nearly impossible to happen. Airbus two years ago offered IB 4 A380 on a price very similar for the A346, even with that bargain, IB rejected the Airbus' proposal.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 11):
and thus choose to under serve a couple of routes instead of taking on the risk of the new type.

IB could be waiting a Boeing's offer with a 787 AND 747-8I combo. (both with GEnx engines) IB has enough money to buy new frames right now.

The 787's (or even the 772ER is not ruled out due to immediate availability) might be a replacement for the oldest A343's. IB, on this scenario, will have both, Boeing and Airbus in long-haul fleet.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 12):
The 380/747-8 are too large for IB.

A380 does, 747-8 is different.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 12):
Boeing wasn't necessarily referring to Iberia when they talk about the Spanish market.

hehe .... Then, do you believe Boeing is thinking in UX when they are saying that " la categoría del Boeing 747 o tamaño superior representa entre un 3 y un 4% del mercado"??  

[Edited 2007-03-16 05:37:58]
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LTU932
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:56 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 14):
IB could be waiting a Boeing's offer with a 787 AND 747-8I combo. (both with GEnx engines)

Wouldn't 787s with Trent 1000 engines make more sense? IB does operate a sizeable fleet of RR powered aircraft (the 757s, which are on the way out, and the A346 with Trent 500s). Either way, the only possibility of acquiring a new aircraft and maintain some commonality would either be with RR powered 787s (in case they don't order the 747 after all), A350s with the Trent XWB and/or A380s with Trent 900s. Perhaps commonality isn't exactly what they require, if they do issue their final RFP to Boeing and Airbus.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:25 pm

Interesting statement given that currently Boeing airplanes are the minority in Spain as there are many Airbus types and a variety of Mad Dogs.
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
Since A380 is too big for IB, I see this Boeing forecast like dropping a hint to IB.

Sorry, but you are reading far too much into this report. What you quote is:

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
while the Boeing 747 size or larger represents three to four percent of the market

and that clearly means in the B747-8/A380 category, and does certainly not give any indication if an order is likely in anyway. It is just a market forecast, nothing else.
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
while the Boeing 747 size or larger represents three to four percent of the market

What you're quoting there is a general statement from a Boeing market study. You'll find that exact same statement in their market studies for other regions. It's a general phrase that has no relation to possible orders whatsoever. Sorry to burst your bubble.

IB's strategy of one A/C type for all long-haul operations seems to be working out very well, if you've seen their financial results these past years. Kind of like what low-cost airlines do with their all-737 fleets. Some time ago, they started retiring their mixed fleet of DC10s and 747s and chose to right-size their A/C on their routes to achieve higher load factors, and at that time they chose the A340. In fact, just recently they retired their last 747-200. They will never get an A380 anywhere short/mid term, because Latin American routes won't fill it. And there's room for them to add another frequency if routes grow. As for the 748I, while it could make sense on a handful of dense routes (Buenos Aires for example), like I said, their one-aircraft type strategy works well and I doubt they'll abandon it.

Now as for what next single aircraft type will replace all those A340s in some years, that will be an exciting debate!
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:43 pm

Iberia currently operates A340-600 to Santiago, Bogota, San Jose, Lima, Mexico, Rio, MIA, JFK, Sao Paolo, Buenos Aires. Since MAD has increased its capacity a lot, there is room for more long range slots. So I guess IB will follow LH and order some more A340-600.
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:49 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 2):
Even IB is saying for some routes the A346 is a bit small. They need, at least 4 or 6 bigger planes than the exiting Iberia's largest aircraft.

Could the 77W have a chance here? An Iberia 77W would look stuning!
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:56 pm

After IB's "policy" to simplifie the fleet to one manufacturer, this doesnt make a lot of sense for planes like the 777 or 747/A380(to big). Though i believe the 787 would be a exception, being so advanced it would cost less introducing it, because lower mx costs/efficiency.However I expect IB will buy some additional A346 to meet the demand.


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EI321
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:22 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 20):
Quoting SKY1 (Reply 2):
Even IB is saying for some routes the A346 is a bit small. They need, at least 4 or 6 bigger planes than the exiting Iberia's largest aircraft.

Could the 77W have a chance here? An Iberia 77W would look stuning!


Doubt it. They could just go for A350-900XWB & A350-1000XWB to replace the A340-300s and A340-600s in the future. I also question why Iberia would be interested in the 747-8 after getting rid of 747-200s and leased 747-400s. Iberia are a good exapmle of Airbus family planning and its benifits. They changed from a fleet of 742, DC10, 757, 727, DC9/MD80 to just A340s and A32X. Would they want perhaps 4 A380s? I dont think so, well not right now but maybe in a few years.
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:49 pm

Iberia opertaed almost everything for a long time. Dc-10, 747, 727, Dc-9, MD-80 and 757's, now with the A320 on the short-haul and the A340 on the long-haul why would they buy 748 ? Latin American airports are not slot constrained, adding frequency to Buenos Aires and Sao Paulo is the way to go, EZE could use a third IB flight some days. If Iberia were to fly to Asia then that would change the need for a different airplane. Why Iberia doesn't fly to Asia is beyond me, with the USA's ridiculous restrictions flying to Asia via Madrid looks very appealing, especially from Southern South America. With ONEWORLD partner Cathay, Iberia should fly to HKG.
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:54 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 20):
Could the 77W have a chance here? An Iberia 77W would look stuning!

No way this awful plane will make it to Iberia. They have the A346, and I guess A350 in future, stupid to look at 773ERs now as it will certainly be out-matched by the larger A350-versions.

I´d love to see the 748 in IB´s colours though, the old 742s were fantastically looking in IBs livery.
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:00 pm

Interesting enough, at the A380's launch in 2000, one of Airbus' seniormost execs stated he felt IB would be one of the nine main A388 customers...
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
Interesting enough, at the A380's launch in 2000, one of Airbus' seniormost execs stated he felt IB would be one of the nine main A388 customers...


That was a long time ago though! Do I recall correctly that United or NW was mentioned in that group of nine?
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
Since A380 is too big for IB

Says Who?

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 5):
I think Boeing has a better chance with the 787 at IB than the 748I.

Agreed.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 20):
Could the 77W have a chance here? An Iberia 77W would look stuning!

Agreed - but its basically the same capacity as the A346 so brings nothing but fleet complications.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 22):
Would they want perhaps 4 A380s?

I would be absolutely amazed if they didnt get at least this many, and perhaps as many as eight. They are lucky because they can do quick rotations to the Canaries in between long sectors, so if they buy it they will be some of the hardest working A388s in the business right from the off. The A388 has a very compelling argument for the A388.
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SKY1
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:19 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 17):
It is just a market forecast, nothing else.

I KNOW it is just a forecast, my God. On this thread I'M the first poster who realized this is a fo-re-cast.

But the Boeing's forecast are pretty right, even a bit conservative ...and did you calculate how many frames are there in 3-4% for all Spanish carriers??

Quoting R2rho (Reply 18):
IB's strategy of one A/C type for all long-haul operations seems to be working out very well, if you've seen their financial results these past years. Kind of like what low-cost airlines do with their all-737 fleets.

You seem to forget a low-cost company never will have more than 1 type of aircraft and engine.

IB has two very different engines on the A340 fleet: A343 with CFM and A346 with RR.

Quoting R2rho (Reply 18):
As for the 748I, while it could make sense on a handful of dense routes (Buenos Aires for example),

Not just EZE, but also MEX, LIM, BOG, MIA ....

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 19):
So I guess IB will follow LH and order some more A340-600.



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 21):
However I expect IB will buy some additional A346 to meet the demand.

I doubt IB going to buy more A346.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 22):
I also question why Iberia would be interested in the 747-8 after getting rid of 747-200s

That's easy: for the same reason IB got rid of DC-8's ...I really like the B742's, but I think nowadays are a bit prehistoric, don't you think?

 arrow  Guys, believe me or not, but currently IB is studying both, 787 and 747-8I. I have my own sources within Iberia, but ...of course I can't say more.

IB is also looking the A-350. The oldest A343 must be replaced on a mid-term, and IB is evaluating A-350 and B-787.
IF finally IB goes for the 787, is nearly sure they will purchase the 747-8I as well.
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 28):
You seem to forget a low-cost company never will have more than 1 type of aircraft and engine.

This is straight forward incorrect. Look at JetBlue, which has both an A320 and an Embraer 190 fleet. Look at flybe, having both the Q400 and the Embraer 190 in its fleet. Look at Myair, flying both the A320 and the CRJ900 with the CRJ1000 on order.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 28):
I KNOW it is just a forecast, my God. On this thread I'M the first poster who realized this is a fo-re-cast.

And as this is just a forecast there is no way to guess from general country data that a certain carrier "may be" a customer for this. It may be Spanair which could decided to get these 3-4% of "B747 and larger" class aircraft, or Air Europa - or a start up.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 28):
Guys, believe me or not, but currently IB is studying both, 787 and 747-8I. I have my own sources within Iberia, but ...of course I can't say more.

Unfair question: why carrier is NOT evaluating the B747-800i/A380 and/or A350/B787 at the moment? Right... none.
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:36 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
Interesting piece......but the fact that Boeing projects that 3 to 4 percent of new airplanes for the Spanish market will be 747 sized (or larger) does not lead me to believe that IB will be ordering the 748I any time soon. Sorry, I just dont see the connection.

I agree. I dont see any connection.
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Asturias
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:39 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 14):
A380 does, 747-8 is different.

Nah, the 748 is too big for Iberia just like the 380. IB is a too small airline for a fleet of jets this size. An airline needs ten frames of this model size to make a profit. What would IB do with 10 748s? Not a lot -- perhaps in the distant future, but that's impossible to say, even for a generic Boeing forecast.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 14):
Then, do you believe Boeing is thinking in UX when they are saying that " la categoría del Boeing 747 o tamaño superior representa entre un 3 y un 4% del mercado"??

Hehe no. I think they're referring to a generic forecast as was mentioned before. The 3-4% will be served by leasing planes or wetleasing from other airlines.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 28):
currently IB is studying both, 787 and 747-8I. I have my own sources within Iberia, but ...of course I can't say more.

Of course IB is studying Boeing planes. Boeing offers fine planes and a public company like Iberia should and has to explore all options abnd choose what fits them best. It doesn't mean they're going to buy any of the models they're studying. It just means they're doing their job.

Thanks for the heads-up, but I'm afraid this generic marketing forecast by Boeing doesn't apply very well to Spain.

saludos

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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 29):
Look at JetBlue, which has both an A320 and an Embraer 190 fleet. Look at flybe, having both the Q400 and the Embraer 190 in its fleet. Look at Myair

That's the exception to the rule:

Look, Tiger, Southwest, Air Asia, Vueling, Ryanair, EasyJet, Transavia, Virgin Express, GOL and so on ....

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 29):
It may be Spanair which could decided to get these 3-4% of "B747 and larger" class aircraft, or Air Europa - or a start up.

Please ....do you really are able to believe that???

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 29):
evaluating the B747-800i/A380

You got the answer in the Boeing's forecasts.
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:01 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 32):
Please ....do you really are able to believe that???

Jup. Will all depend on the agressiveness of the airline / start-up. Look at Virgin Blue, which all of a sudden purchased 7 B777-300ER to launch long-haul services after only operating short-hauls before. look at Bankok Airways, which had been a regional operator but then signed for the A350. Look at Viva Macau, which decided to launch operations with the B767. Nothing speaks against something similar to happen in Spain or anywhere else. And the equipment could well be the B747-400 or a different version - take a look to Hong Kong and see what is happening there with Oasis. Who says that there isn´t a market for cheap 500+ seat shuttles between Spain and South-America? Low fares - high demand. (over-simplificated)

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 32):
EasyJet,

EasyJet has stated several times that they will operate both the B737-700 and the A319 for some time. Virgin Blue is soon adding the Embraer 170/190. It is not so uncommon as one may believe.

[Edited 2007-03-16 15:05:09]
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:44 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 31):
An airline needs ten frames of this model size to make a profit.

Why do they need 10 or more A380s to make a profit? I think six would work - 8 ideal, 10 probably too many.

* Shared type-rating pool with the majority of the A340 crews after a short conversion course.
* RR Trent MX and Training pools/inventories/lines in place already with the 554s on the A346s.
* Scheduling not really an issue - A388 is almost exactly two A343s.
* MAD is, I understand, A388 ready in terms of ramp strength, and taxiway wideness. Double-deck gates not massively expensive to build/install.
* Massive fleet of Airbus already for IB - good working relationship, and probably an excellent deal on the frames to acquire.
* Probably some level of inducement from the Spanish Government to buy European.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 19):
Iberia currently operates A340-600 to Santiago, Bogota, San Jose, Lima, Mexico, Rio, MIA, JFK, Sao Paolo, Buenos Aires. Since MAD has increased its capacity a lot, there is room for more long range slots. So I guess IB will follow LH and order some more A340-600.

...they serve ORD occasionally too.... Smile




interestingly enough, when IB brings the A346 to ORD, it doesn't use its standard L-Gate...but rather the K-gates....



here it is aborting its takeoff....

"Up the Irons!"
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 26):
That was a long time ago though! Do I recall correctly that United or NW was mentioned in that group of nine?

Yup. And no mention of EK, nor SQ and QF as I recall.  Smile
 
r2rho
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 23):
Why Iberia doesn't fly to Asia is beyond me, with the USA's ridiculous restrictions flying to Asia via Madrid looks very appealing, especially from Southern South America. With ONEWORLD partner Cathay, Iberia should fly to HKG.

 checkmark  ...and let's not forget JAL joining Oneworld too. I remember the Spanish government negotiated an increase of weekly frequencies with China, but IB did not take those slots. Air Europa did, but they retreated from the market, possibly because they aren't (yet) in any alliance and couldn't take full advantage of those routes. Spain-Asia connections are still a BIG pending issue for Spanish carriers!

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 28):
IB has two very different engines on the A340 fleet: A343 with CFM and A346 with RR.

I realize they have two engine types, but all-A340 still highly simplifies things with respect to having, say, a mixed 330+777 fleet, specially for an airline the size of IB.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 28):
IF finally IB goes for the 787, is nearly sure they will purchase the 747-8I as well.

For now, IB will continue with 340s (perhaps buying or leasing some if they need to grow, like LH) until they have decided on their future widebody fleet. This will be either an all-A350 fleet, or a combination of 787s+748s, as the 787 is not large enough to handle their A346 routes. That's my theory at least.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 33):
Who says that there isn�t a market for cheap 500+ seat shuttles between Spain and South-America? Low fares - high demand.

Hmmm interesting. Not very sure about the 500+, but there is certainly a demand for a low-cost type carrier across the southern Atlantic. Unfortunately the airline who attempted it, Air Madrid, was a total failure and an embarassment to Spanish aviation.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 34):
Probably some level of inducement from the Spanish Government to buy European.

While the government will certainly try to, IB is fortunately totally government independent and they will choose what they consider best for their future plans. And future plans include a merger or acquisition (http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/3279812/), which could also influence on the fleet choice...
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 34):
Why do they need 10 or more A380s to make a profit? I think six would work - 8 ideal, 10 probably too many.

It is just a number, but it seens to be the ballpark estimation. Some operators have chosen to order less than ten frames but KLM has mentioned that for them ten frames would be a minimum order if they were to make a profit off the 380.

I realize that KLM and Iberia are not the same and airline economics are very different between countries, markets and airlines - however it was just a number. Could be six to eight.

OK let's say a 'handful' of frames. Iberia 'needs' perhaps four..

Regardless. Right now Iberia is choosing frequency over quantity like many airlines. Unless they chang this policy, they don't need anything bigger than a T7/350. I seriously doubt they go for the 748 or the 380 for that matter.

saludos

Asturias
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:58 am

Quote:

MADRID, March 14, 2007 -- Spain will require 410 new airplanes worth about $36 billion over the next 20 years, according to The Boeing Company's annual forecast for the commercial airplane market.



Quoting SKY1 (Reply 28):
But the Boeing's forecast are pretty right, even a bit conservative ...and did you calculate how many frames are there in 3-4% for all Spanish carriers??

12 to 16 frames in the next 20 years...

I think is feasible IB orders the type and, as mentioned above IB was a 747-400 operator and can fill the planes, especially to Argentina and Mexico, both markets currently operated (most of the times) with double daily A343/A346.

Fyano
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:14 am

It doesn't say that IB is a potential 747-8 customer at all, what gives?
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EI321
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting JAL (Reply 40):
It doesn't say that IB is a potential 747-8 customer at all, what gives?

It says Iberia are a potential customer but in a rather loose context.
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:40 am

I thought IB was all airbus? wont they stick with them? (commonality, etc.)
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dutchjet
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 42):
I thought IB was all airbus? wont they stick with them? (commonality, etc.)

There is no such thing as ""all-Airbus"" or ""all-Boeing""........airlines study each and every airliner that is developed by the manufacters and will buy the types that they want and need, subject to acceptable business terms. Commonality is nice, but it is overated, and a much bigger deal here at a.net than it is in the real world.......when an airline has 100s of airplanes, its really not necessary for a pilot to be able to fly each and every type, and in most cases, union/seniority and scheduling practices prevent such things from happening. (Do you really think that a LH pilot flies an A346 from on a long haul flight one day and then flies an A319 from FRA to BRU the next?)

Some examples.....

United was a loyal Boeing customer until it ordered the A320.
Air Canada was predicted to have an all-Airbus fleet and then ordered the 787 and 777.
Lufthansa ordered exclusively Airbus for years and recently placed an order for the 748I.
And BA surpirsed a lot of people when it when with Airbus for its narrow body needs.
 
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 39):
12 to 16 frames in the next 20 years...

Precisely!

That's my point. Boeing is saying the Spanish carriers (no doubt neither JK nor UX) will need 12-16 aircraft 747-8I sized or larger--at least-- in the next 20 years just like Fyano773 says.

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 39):
I think is feasible IB orders the type

  

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 39):
IB was a 747-400 operator and can fill the planes,

IB was, with a exception (747-SP) ...an all series 747 operator (-100, -200, -300, -400 and -200M)

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 43):
There is no such thing as ""all-Airbus"" or ""all-Boeing""........airlines study each and every airliner that is developed by the manufacters and will buy the types that they want and need, subject to acceptable business terms



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 43):
Commonality is nice, but it is overated, and a much bigger deal here at a.net than it is in the real world

I 100% agree with you.

By the way, boys ...did you see all the Boeing's forecast?? I love it. You can learn a lot of, even you can ask for a personal copy for yourself.

[Edited 2007-03-17 04:33:14]
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 41):
Quoting JAL (Reply 40):
It doesn't say that IB is a potential 747-8 customer at all, what gives?

It says Iberia are a potential customer but in a rather loose context.

I must admit would be great for Iberia to order the 747-8I but chances are they will order the 787 instead, what you think?
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 43):
Lufthansa ordered exclusively Airbus for years and recently placed an order for the 748I.

Don't forget the large number MD-11F's they ordered in the late '90s.

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 42):
I thought IB was all airbus?

Recent orders yes, but they still have a decent sized fleet of Mad Dogs.
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Asturias
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:23 pm

Quoting JAL (Reply 45):
I must admit would be great for Iberia to order the 747-8I but chances are they will order the 787 instead, what you think?

I think this is much more likely. The 748 is too much of a niche plane for IB. I don't care what that forecast says, it doesn't apply to Iberia. Still, even more likely is that Iberia buys the 350.

The thread starter is full with wishful thinking, which is nice, but detached from reality. The forecast does in no way claim any jumbo jets will be bought by Iberia. Just that the Spanish market will need x many such jets.

Also to burst the bubble for Duchjet and SKY1, the reason for a full Airbus fleet at IB is not commonality as much as a good price. Much like CO and Boeing.

When CO buys Airbus, look out for IB buying Boeing. I'm not holding my breath.

saludos

Asturias
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SKY1
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 47):
I don't care what that forecast says, it doesn't apply to Iberia.

Maybe ít does apply for ...Spanair? Air Europa? Vueling?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 47):
The thread starter is full with wishful thinking,

While I must admit I'd like so much see the 747-8I's with IB colours, it is also not less true for first time in 14 years Boeing has the best opportunity to sale IB some frames.

Like I said before, I know IB is right now evaluating the 747-8I. It doesn't automatically mean IB must buy the 747-8I, but I can assure you they in this moment are watching both, 747 and 787.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 47):
Just that the Spanish market will need x many such jets.

12 to 16 frames in the next 20 years... like Fyano773 said (on the most conservative estimation)

The Europe-LatinAmerica market is growing yearly by 5-6 %. There is capacity for a 747-8I towards the main South American Hubs.

Look EZE, for instance ...IB flying 3 times per day, UX has already a new service with A-330, AR I think is flying the route twice per day, LAN Argentina also will start new flights, even AF will upgrade 772ER for 773ER on the CDG-EZE route.
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Asturias
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RE: Boeing Hints IB May Be A 747-8I Customer

Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 48):
Maybe ít does apply for ...Spanair? Air Europa? Vueling?

Perhaps -- but maybe it doesn't apply to any Spanish airline. Just the Spanish market.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 48):
While I must admit I'd like so much see the 747-8I's with IB colours, it is also not less true for first time in 14 years Boeing has the best opportunity to sale IB some frames.

I would like to see the 748 in IB colors as well, but it is much more likely IB will buy the 787 than anything else from Boeing. And even a 787 purchse by IB isn't very likely. Just like CO isn't about to buy Airbus frames in the foreseeable future.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 48):
The Europe-LatinAmerica market is growing yearly by 5-6 %. There is capacity for a 747-8I towards the main South American Hubs.

The jumbo jets that Boeing is predicting do not have to be Spanish to serve the Spanish market. They could be from any airline flying to Spain.

saludos

Asturias
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