jimyvr
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Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:24 pm

Jet Airways' schedule for Mumbai - Brussels - Newark is now available.

Effective 28OCT07, daily 777-300ER

9W228 BOM 0225 - 0740 BRU 0940 - 1225EWR
9W227 EWR 2025 - 0940 BRU 1140 - 0040BOM

There would be a chance to receive 5th freedom rights on BRU-EWR
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manni
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:58 pm

So both flights will be at BRU at the same time, a nice boost to the underused B terminal in BRU. I suppose Brussels Airport will need to add additional gates to the 'secure' zone at the end of the B terminal (not just for Jet but also for the 2 other new US services that are starting this summer), atleast the flight to EWR will have to board in the secure zone (just like Biman did when they were still around in BRU).

4 hours 45 minutes ground time in BRU for the passengers travelling from BOM to JFK seems a bit much.

There are rumours that Jet Airways would also send a DEL flight on the way to North America trough BRU. Anyone with more on that.
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kaitak744
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:45 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 1):
4 hours 45 minutes ground time in BRU for the passengers travelling from BOM to JFK seems a bit much.

Arrive at BRU 0740, leave 0940. That is 2 hours ground time at BRU. Also 2 hours on the way back.

Also, the planes will not be in BRU at the same time (if there are no delays). Right as one flight leaves BRU, the other one will arrive. I think the idea is to use the same ground crew for both flights.
 
manni
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:07 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 2):
Arrive at BRU 0740, leave 0940. That is 2 hours ground time at BRU. Also 2 hours on the way back.

Woow, I think I misread the information. Thanks for pointing that out, it makes a lot more sense now.
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Kevin777
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:48 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
There would be a chance to receive 5th freedom rights on BRU-EWR

If they don't, wouldn't that be a b*tch?? I mean, at least some pax will terminate in BRU and flying 60-70 % LF over the Atlantic is painful economically.

Reminds me of EY, they do AUH-BRU-NYC (don't remember which), SN is responsible for all sales of BRU-NYC tickets, so maybe they circumvented a "true" 5th freedom right in this sense? Maybe 9W could do the same?

If they do get 5th freedom one way or the other (through SN), BRU-NYC is surely gonna be a competitive market in the summer..

But good luck, 9W, and welcome to the European continent. Looking forward to seeing you in CPH someday...  Wink

Kevin777
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OA260
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:13 pm

They are selling tickets on the BRU-EWR-BRU

BRU EWR 0940 1200 9W 228 F4 A2 C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4#77WB

EWR BRU 2030#0940 9W 227 F4 A2 C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4#77WB
 
Kevin777
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:32 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):
They are selling tickets on the BRU-EWR-BRU

BRU EWR 0940 1200 9W 228 F4 A2 C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4#77WB

EWR BRU 2030#0940 9W 227 F4 A2 C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4#77WB

Well, that's great - doesn't necessarily mean they have 5th freedom yet though, but still, hope they will!

Anybody knows if they'll get any interline feed to BRU from Europe to either BOM or BRU??

Kevin777  Smile
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pnqiad
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):
They are selling tickets on the BRU-EWR-BRU

Yes - As per the India-Belgium ASA modified in 2005, provides full 5th freedom for Indian carriers.

MOU Between India and Kingdom of Belgium
 
mk777
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 1):
There are rumours that Jet Airways would also send a DEL flight on the way to North America trough BRU. Anyone with more on that.

They are just awaiting new aircrafts. But nothing is finalized. There is speculation that it could be a DEL-BRU-YYZ, now that AC is withdrawing their service, i think it would be a wise choice.

9W also got permission to fly to BOM-PVG, maybe onwards to SFO...i know they had applied for this route.
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manni
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:52 pm

Quoting PNQIAD (Reply 7):
Yes - As per the India-Belgium ASA modified in 2005, provides full 5th freedom for Indian carriers.

I've had a few domestic flights on Jet Airways, and tought their service was outstanding. I'd guess their international services are even better. Good to see Jet Airways being able to sell tickets from BRU to BOM and EWR, I guess they'll give the carriers currently flying between BRU and New York a run for their money. Hopefully they'll set up a big publicity campaign to get their product and name known amongst the Belgian travelling public.

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 8):
There is speculation that it could be a DEL-BRU-YYZ, now that AC is withdrawing their service, i think it would be a wise choice.

Etihad will stop flying to Toronto via Brussels and operate the route non stop from Abu Dhabi instead. Jet airways would not only be able to profit from AC terminating their service to DEL but also from EY stopping their service to YYZ from BRU. Bring them on I'd say. Jet Airways is more then welcome in BRU.
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dutchjet
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 1):
So both flights will be at BRU at the same time, a nice boost to the underused B terminal in BRU. I suppose Brussels Airport will need to add additional gates to the 'secure' zone at the end of the B terminal (not just for Jet but also for the 2 other new US services that are starting this summer), atleast the flight to EWR will have to board in the secure zone (just like Biman did when they were still around in BRU).

The secure zone is over with at BRU.......the zone was dropped in late 2006 although many of the US flights still arrive/depart from the end of Terminal B. A couple of weeks ago, I departed on CO 061 from gate B05 and on Wednesday morning, the UA flight was at B03 (I think). I asked about this.....could not get a straight answer, and the last two times that I flew out of BRU, a friend who is usually a good source of information on such matters was not around. I will follow up......

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 2):

Arrive at BRU 0740, leave 0940. That is 2 hours ground time at BRU. Also 2 hours on the way back.

Also, the planes will not be in BRU at the same time (if there are no delays). Right as one flight leaves BRU, the other one will arrive. I think the idea is to use the same ground crew for both flights.

Exactly right, from what I hear.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):
BRU EWR 0940 1200 9W 228 F4 A2 C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4#77WB

Interesting that this flight will fly almost wing-to-wing with the CO BRU-EWR flight which will soon be operating with a 772ER......
 
manni
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
the zone was dropped in late 2006 although many of the US flights still arrive/depart from the end of Terminal B.

Woow... I wasn't aware of that (makes me realise how long it's been since I was in Belgium).
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mk777
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:12 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
Interesting that this flight will fly almost wing-to-wing with the CO BRU-EWR flight which will soon be operating with a 772ER......

I can say 100% for sure, that inflight service on 9W would be much better than CO. I have flown DEL-BOM on the domestic sector and their food and service is impeccable. At the same time, lots of Indians bound from NJ would love to see an Indian crew with Indian food on board. My money is on 9W even though CO is the best airline in the US of A.

However, once CO starts their non-stop BOM-EWR service, things could change if people prefer to fly non-stop. I am not a big fan of non-stops unless of course i get lucky and fly business or even better, first class. But I am sure a lot of older folks coming to meet their sons/daughters/grandchildren would also prefer a one stop...so 9W might be a good competition for CO  Smile

Now if some Indian carrier can fly to IAD, my annual trip to DEL would definitely be on one of them.  Smile
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SNA350
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 4):
Reminds me of EY, they do AUH-BRU-NYC (don't remember which), SN is responsible for all sales of BRU-NYC tickets, so maybe they circumvented a "true" 5th freedom right in this sense? Maybe 9W could do the same?

that was AUH-BRU-YYZ not to New York
but the rest is true SN sold the tickets on the BRU-YYZ leg
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justplanes
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:40 pm

Looks like this route starts Aug 15th....
 
jimyvr
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting JustPlanes (Reply 14):
Looks like this route starts Aug 15th....

Looks like it is the case. Didn't find the flight in August, September last night though
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Concorde001
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):
F4 A2 C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4#77WB

Are Jet introducing a First Class cabin - if yes then I think it is the airline's very first!
 
brightcedars
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:15 am

It's nice if they do this BOM-BRU-EWR matching a DEL-BRU-YYZ, except for the fact that shopping options near the gates at terminal B are rather limited, you have to go all the way to the International transit hall/mall. Too bad!
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dutchjet
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 12):
I can say 100% for sure, that inflight service on 9W would be much better than CO. I have flown DEL-BOM on the domestic sector and their food and service is impeccable. At the same time, lots of Indians bound from NJ would love to see an Indian crew with Indian food on board

Many will disagree with you on this point........CO has a good reputation in Europe (especially the Benelux) and BRU is one of CO's most profitable stations. There is a reason that BRU is getting the 772ER this summer....CO has a solid cutomer base and many contracts with large clients for this route and the load factors and yeilds on the flight are exceptionally high. That being said, there is a lot of new service out of BRU to the United States coming this summer, for the first time in years.....aside from the 9W flight, both NW and US are adding flights from BRU to their respective hubs with 757s.

Its gonna be interesting to see if 9W offers baragin fares in the BRU-EWR market to keep the airplanes filled....9W's success in the BRU-EWR Fifth Freedom market is far from certain: SQ once flew SIN-BRU-JFK and SIN-AMS-EWR and were very unsuccessful with the transatlantic segments, reports indicate that EK is doing very poorly on its HAM-JFK flight with many reports stating that less than 30 pax are O&D for the transatanatic segment, etc. Nothing against 9W, they have a good reputation, but this will be an interesting situation to watch.

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 12):
However, once CO starts their non-stop BOM-EWR service, things could change if people prefer to fly non-stop.

With CO adding BOM-EWR nonstop service and DL already flying BOM-JFK nonstop, can Jet effectively compete on this route with one-step service? Big question.....it does seem that the nonstop flights are very popular and are doing far better than anyone ever really expected, again an interesting situation to watch. And, of course, CO can offer connections though out North America via its EWR hub, DL offers connecting service to key cities out of JFK, something that 9W cannot offer and thus will be more O&D oriented.

Lots of issues......the US-India market has exploded...is there enough traffic for all of these airlines to make money on these new flights?
 
mk777
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
9W's success in the BRU-EWR Fifth Freedom market is far from certain

I somewhat agree but a lot of Indians travel to the US and flights are usually full most of the year. SIN-AMS or SIN-BRU going onwards to the US just doesn't have those pax. But SQ now does well on their non-stop (???) EWR service. I think people in europe prefer using thier flag carriers to the US than anything else, i am sure you can explain that, since you have a dutch origin.

And yes, i agree that there are too many flights now to India...i am not sure how all of them will do, almost every major carrier flies to India and so really all will depend on how the pax get treated during the flight and of course, the on-time performance.

Thanks for your inputs....its fun discussing when someone actually responds  Smile
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Kevin777
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:45 pm

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 8):
9W also got permission to fly to BOM-PVG,

Now that could be a goldmine waiting to be tapped... BOM-HKG is highly restricted and thus with very, very good yields; BOM-PVG could surely gain from this for flights to HKG, Southern China and Taiwan

Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):
BRU EWR 0940 1200 9W 228 F4 A2 C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4#77WB

EWR BRU 2030#0940 9W 227 F4 A2 C4 J4 Z4 I4 Y4 M4 T4 U4#77WB

As someone else already noted, when did 9W get first class? Anyways, had a friend who flew BOM-LHR-BOM twice in November last year, in both Y and J, he was absolutely amazed by the experience in both classes.. He was supposed to sleep before a meeting in London, but the IFE was so good he didn't close an eye..!

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
Its gonna be interesting to see if 9W offers baragin fares in the BRU-EWR market to keep the airplanes filled

Hope they do - at least for a start. Hope for some interline to CPH so I can get on it!..

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
With CO adding BOM-EWR nonstop service and DL already flying BOM-JFK nonstop, can Jet effectively compete on this route with one-step service?

I think they stand a fair chance.. yields might be a bit lower, yes, but costs also.. Carrying the fuel you burn from Europe to India all the way with you from the U.S. is very, very costly, and 9W wonøt have those costs..

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 19):
I somewhat agree but a lot of Indians travel to the US and flights are usually full most of the year.

India-US/Europe routes are also counter-seasonal; good for year-round traffic. When the weather sucks in India, it's beatifult in Europe/US and the other way around..

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 19):
And yes, i agree that there are too many flights now to India

I agree too... I'm happy to see all the flights to India, and in particular Indian carriers coming along here, but this just can't work economically.. (Sorry, some tend to believe that I'm always negative about traffic to India in this forum, I'm not..) ..but if 9W also starts service from DEL, and to other cities in Europe, along with the ns U.S. expansion, and AI going nonstop to the US, and then maybe IT in a couple of years going for the same... sorry to be the party-pooper, but that won't work...

But let's see..!! Good luck, 9W, good luck!

Kevin777  Smile
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behramjee
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:40 pm

9W has supposedly a cult following with NRIs in USA and this EWR flight will be welcomed big time by the USA residing NRI community.

In 2005, when 9W originally had announced its intentions to fly to EWR, the NYC based Air India manager reportedly had mentioned to a colleague of mine that according to their market research, NRIs in USA dont mind paying a premium of upto 10% on the fare to fly 9W instead of Air India from USA to India due to its excellent inflight product / service reputation that it has managed to cultivate amongst the local and expat Indians.

The flight timings too are excellent as with a mid-day arrival into EWR, it allows the possibility of having excellent connections within 3-4 hours on flights bound to all major U.S. metro cities nonstop from EWR and the same thing vice versa due to its evening departure from EWR. I hope 9W signs a SPA with CO from EWR which would provide valueable feed to their flights in both directions.
 
Kevin777
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:01 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 21):
9W has supposedly a cult following with NRIs in USA and this EWR flight will be welcomed big time by the USA residing NRI community.

Well I can believe you...! In India, whenever you talked about aviation with anybody, 9W always came up as THE best option, whether to fly with them work from them or whatever.. It certainly has an aura down there. But also its problems. 9W got its good reputation when it was the only standing up against AI and IC - now others are giving them a run for their money and reputation. And 9W's costs are high, as are their fares, and they are in some trouble economically (at least until some of the new Indian LCCs go bankrupt).

But nice airline. Never really liked the name "Jet", but what tha´.. great service, flew them on GOI-BOM Dec. 20th last year, morning flight, 738, nice cabin crew, excellent pitch in Y (and I'm 192 cm), nice Indian food.. and the staff immediately saw me, the poor thing, a Westerner wth an obvious huge hangover from a night out in Goa, and offered me some paracetamols.. I could have kissed them.. but my breath would have scared them away..!  Smile

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blueflyer
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:42 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
Its gonna be interesting to see if 9W offers baragin fares in the BRU-EWR market to keep the airplanes filled

My guess is SN is going to do a code-share on the BRU-EWR leg (as they code-share on almost any plane that touches the ground in BRU) and 9W will count on SN to fill up most of the O&D seats available. There may actually be quite a few of those. The arrival in both directions is also well-timed to connect with SN's service to/from destinations in the UK and elsewhere that now require going through LHR on flights that I'm told are very often full. I wouldn't be surprised to see 9W start selling BOM-BHX/BRS/MAN via BRU to free up more O&D seats for LHR. If the DEL-BRU-YYZ flight does become reality, BRU might become a European mini-hub for 9W. If 9W is as good as many say (I've never tried), SN would do well to get an interline with them and become their de facto intra-European carrier for destinations that are not available non-stop from BOM/DEL, rather than see those passengers connect through busier airports such as CDG, FRA or LHR.

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 12):
My money is on 9W even though CO is the best airline in the US of A.

There are many large corporations with headquarters in New York/Newark that use CO as their "official carrier," some large enough to have their own dedicated check-in desk at EWR. They are CO's bread and butter, and are very much a captive market. If I wanted to fly another carrier between BRU and EWR, CO would have to be full in both cabins or I would have to convince the powers-that-be that CO's departure/arrival times conflict with my schedule in either city, a pretty hard sell with 9W given how closely their schedule matches CO's.

Quoting PNQIAD (Reply 7):
Yes - As per the India-Belgium ASA modified in 2005, provides full 5th freedom for Indian carriers.

The declaration also gives away almost limitless freighter service. I guess this explains why SQC has so many flights BRU-India.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
I asked about this.....could not get a straight answer

I got two answers when I asked, neither very satisfying. The first one was that BATC finally realized there's no need to be holier than the pope, the second why "Why ? You miss the extra walk ?"
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manni
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:55 pm

Interesting post BlueFlyer.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 23):
My guess is SN is going to do a code-share on the BRU-EWR

This seems a bit strange. SN already has a codeshare with AA to JFK, I'd say if SN codeshares with 9W it's on the BRU-BOM leg.
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PYP757
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 12):
I can say 100% for sure, that inflight service on 9W would be much better than CO.

I too want to disagree with this statement. I fly the BRU-EWR route on CO regularly, and have never had any complains with the in flight service. 100 times better than AA or Delta on the same route.
 
dfwmzuri
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:42 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 24):
SN already has a codeshare with AA to JFK

Does 9W codeshare with AA? I thought I read somewhere that they did.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 23):
My guess is SN is going to do a code-share on the BRU-EWR leg (as they code-share on almost any plane that touches the ground in BRU)

Not really true.......SN does not codeshare with CO, DL and will not be codesharing with NW and US when then start service to BRU later this year. And SN does not code share with European carriers such as LH and SAS.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 23):
9W will count on SN to fill up most of the O&D seats available.

I am sure that American will be thrilled with this idea......SN codeshares with AA on US bound flights.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 23):
BRU might become a European mini-hub for 9W

I think you ar getting ahead of your self......for now its one service making a stop in BRU and the DEL-BRU-YYZ flight is still speculation.

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 25):

I too want to disagree with this statement. I fly the BRU-EWR route on CO regularly, and have never had any complains with the in flight service. 100 times better than AA or Delta on the same route.

While Jet Airways will sell seats in the BRU-EWR market, their primary goal with this flight is moving passengers betwen India and the US......we should not place too much importance on this issue, of course, 9W will benefit from the opportunity of selling seats in this market and will try to keep the BRU-EWR segment filled......but this is nothing more than a potential ""extra"", Jet wants that 773ER to be filled with passengers travelling between the US and India.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 21):
I hope 9W signs a SPA with CO from EWR which would provide valueable feed to their flights in both directions.

It will be interesting to see how closely CO and 9W work together at EWR.......dont forget that CO will be offering nonstop flights between EWR and BOM and DEL, 9W and CO are direct competitiors on the Indian routes as well as the EWR-BRU segment.

--------------------------------------

Question - why is Jet Airways flying its EWR-India services with a stop in BRU? The trend is nonstops (CO and DL...Air India is sure to offer nonstop services once its new 777 and 787 airplanes are delivered) and, although the flights are long, passengers seem to like the idea of bypassing Europe and have shorter travel times. Andy info would be appreciated.......that 773ER should not have a problem overflying Brussels and going directly to its destination.
 
Kevin777
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 27):
And SN does not code share with European carriers such as LH and SAS.

True, but to be fair, SN is an airline that code-shares across the board like no one else because it isn't in any alliance

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 27):
we should not place too much importance on this issue, of course, 9W will benefit from the opportunity of selling seats in this market and will try to keep the BRU-EWR segment filled......but this is nothing more than a potential ""extra"", Jet wants that 773ER to be filled with passengers travelling between the US and India.

Then why stop in BRU at all then?? As you point out later:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 27):
Andy info would be appreciated.......that 773ER should not have a problem overflying Brussels and going directly to its destination.

I reckon that they must be going for some significant 5th freedom, and not just low-yields buying Eu-US tickets on an Indian airline in a bucket shop in Brussels. Not to the level of EK in HAM, but still...

An issue could of course be the cost of flying the very long hauls, but still, think they're going for BRU-US too..

Kevin777  Smile
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blueflyer
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 24):
SN already has a codeshare with AA to JFK

That is entirely true, but does it preclude SN from codesharing to EWR ? I don't know... As long as SN doesn't codeshare with CO on domestic flights, I don't see why AA would even care. SN would have no particular reason to market their EWR flight much lower than JFK, so they would take away few of the O&Ds using JFK (because the O&Ds who want to fly to EWR fly CO now) and none of the NY-connecting traffic. If it does happen, I think CO stands to lose the most. Just how much depends on how good 9W's service is, I guess.
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dutchjet
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 29):
I don't know... As long as SN doesn't codeshare with CO on domestic flights, I don't see why AA would even care

AA would care....AA expects SN to route their US bound passengers on AA metal, why would AA continue to codeshare with SN if SN is putting is US bound passengers on to 9W??

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 29):
I think CO stands to lose the most. Just how much depends on how good 9W's service is, I guess.

9W flying BRU-EWR is a non issue for CO.....as you point out, 9W can offer service only to O&D passengers while CO can offer service throughout North America, and CO has no problem keeping both cabins of its BRU flight filled to capacity yearround. When EK started flying DXB-HAM-JFK, many said CO had a problem.....meanwhile CO has hardly noticed that EK entered the market.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 29):
Just how much depends on how good 9W's service is, I guess.

Its not a service question, its a price question......if SQ had to sell tickets on its AMS-EWR flight for E 199 roundtrip a few years ago (that offer was available thoughout the Netherlands) in an attempt to keep the 744 filled on the transatlnatic segment (and the plane still went out with light loads most of the time) and EK is boarding less than 30 O&D passengers on many days between HAM and JFK, its not about service as EK and SQ certainly have as good or better reputation than Jet Airways. Fifth Freedom flights are difficult.......and while I believe that Jet Airways offers very good inflight service (I have not flown with them), they are not yet a world player like CX or SQ and they will have trouble convincing American and Belgian people to fly with them accross the Atlantic.....unless the price is very sharp.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 27):
Not really true

Ok, let me rephrase it better. They code-share on almost any destination out of BRU on which they do not compete (except CO, DL, NW and US).

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 27):
I think you ar getting ahead of your self.

That is why I said "if." It is indeed pure speculation. Mind you, in my speculating, I'm not too shabby a company, Flemish minister Geert Bourgeois clearly sees DEL-YYZ via BRU (and connecting traffic ex BRU to YVR and JFK) as a fait accompli. I'm not quite as optimistic as he is, so I shall still say I'm speculating...

If it does happen, BRU will see 5 777s in just a few hours every morning. [sarcasm on]Can BRU handle that many 777s all of a sudden ?[sarcasm off]

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 28):
Then why stop in BRU at all then??

Could it be (again, just speculating here) that a stop between the US and India is necessary to get around the still-unresolved issue of the actual citizenship of Jet Airways' main shareholder ?
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abrelosojos
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 20):
but this just can't work economically.. (Sorry, some tend to believe that I'm always negative about traffic to India in this forum, I'm not..) ..but if 9W also starts service from DEL, and to other cities in Europe, along with the ns U.S. expansion, and AI going nonstop to the US, and then maybe IT in a couple of years going for the same... sorry to be the party-pooper, but that won't work...

= Aaww ... thanks for not disappointing me. I clicked on this thread just to see if you had responded with something negative  Smile. Lets see if 9W "just cant work economically". I do think however that they will systematically withdraw BRU as a stopping point once more non-stop Indian flights start. Why bother with a small stagnant market anyway?

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 22):
certainly has an aura down there. But also its problems. 9W got its good reputation when it was the only standing up against AI and IC - now others are giving them a run for their money and reputation

= Isn't this very neo-centric? "Down there"? Having flown BOM-LHR, I can assure you that 9W is MILES ahead of any airline in Europe. They are not even in the same league. I mean, would I fly with charming hostesses on 9W or some bitter cold robot on many Euro carriers? Ok, BA-VS-KL-LX are exceptions to this rule.

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 25):
I too want to disagree with this statement. I fly the BRU-EWR route on CO regularly, and have never had any complains with the in flight service. 100 times better than AA or Delta on the same route.

= CO will win over 9W because of EWR feeds and due to FFP loyalties. In terms of service, 9W is again MILES ahead of CO.

-A.
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 31):
Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 28):
Then why stop in BRU at all then??

Could it be (again, just speculating here) that a stop between the US and India is necessary to get around the still-unresolved issue of the actual citizenship of Jet Airways' main shareholder ?

Actually, while digging into it, I came across an article with chairman Naresh Goyal in which he implies that the 777 doesn't have the range to do it non-stop and that the carrier is looking at 747-8s for that. What gives ? Could 9W load so much freight onboard that the 777 would no longer have the range to bypass BRU ?
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...12/20/stories/2005122001190700.htm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 30):
Its not a service question, its a price question

Hold on. Either I'm missing something or, with all due respect, you're contradicting yourself. If it's a price question, a €199 roundtrip ought to almost guarantee a full flight (unless everyone matches it, of course). So if it's not service and it's not pricing, what is it ? I'm guessing SQ marketed their flights heavily, so is it the "home carrier" effect ?
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 27):
While Jet Airways will sell seats in the BRU-EWR market, their primary goal with this flight is moving passengers betwen India and the US......we should not place too much importance on this issue, of course, 9W will benefit from the opportunity of selling seats in this market and will try to keep the BRU-EWR segment filled......but this is nothing more than a potential ""extra"", Jet wants that 773ER to be filled with passengers travelling between the US and India

= Finally some sensible talk. I dont think people realize that the stop at BRU could very well have been some place else in Europe. I am sure BRU worked due to a combination of new Indo-Belgium ASA (5th freedom), political willingness, 9Ws risk taking, easy availability of slots @ BRU, some premium diamond traffic, etc. BRU is just a filler for now. While I cannot be sure, my guess is that 9W wanted to experiment with BRU before launching non-stops to US.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 30):
9W flying BRU-EWR is a non issue for CO.....as you point out, 9W can offer service only to O&D passengers while CO can offer service throughout North America, and CO has no problem keeping both cabins of its BRU flight filled to capacity yearround. When EK started flying DXB-HAM-JFK, many said CO had a problem.....meanwhile CO has hardly noticed that EK entered the market.

= Completely agreed. I think 9W on BRU-EWR would be a non issue for CO given its corportate clientele, FFP and hub benefits. However, 9W could steal passengers the average Euro-American passengers away if they market the route properly.

Have you noticed the current fares? While BOM-EWR is a reasonable USD 1,100 range, the flights BOM-BRU and BRU-EWR are ridiculously expensive ... this might be an indication of how they are planning revenue management on this route.

Cheers,
A.
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dutchjet
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 33):

Hold on. Either I'm missing something or, with all due respect, you're contradicting yourself. If it's a price question, a €199 roundtrip ought to almost guarantee a full flight (unless everyone matches it, of course). So if it's not service and it's not pricing, what is it ? I'm guessing SQ marketed their flights heavily, so is it the "home carrier" effect ?

Let me clarify......my point is that carriers operating ""fifth freedom"" services many times have difficulty making the flight work. SQ, a ""world-carrier"" with an excellent reputation, had problems with the tranatlantic segment of its SIN-AMS-EWR flight and frequently would sell tickets on the AMS-EWR routes for rock-bottom promotional fares in an attempt to keep the airplanes somewhat filled and to raise some revenue. And even with the low fares on the route, load factors were nothing more than mediocre. (Why SQ continued flying the route for so long is something I cannot explain, I can only guess that they moved a good amount of cargo on the flight and that revenue from the SIN-EWR through passengers was adequate.....but SQ went to nonstop flights to EWR just as soon as the A345 became available.) EK seems to be facing the same problem at HAM with respect to attracting passengers.....I dont know if EK is offering bagain fares on the route just yet.

Why are these fifth freedom flights difficult? Is it marketing? Is it passenger loyalty? Is national pride? Is it none of these things? I really dont know, but the fifth freedom operations can be very tricky and seem to be hit or miss........sometimes the route is a great success for the airline and other times its a problem. My guess is that unless and until Jet can establish itself with US and Belgian passengers, they could have a hard time selling tickets on their EWR--BRU segment, and even if word spreads that Jet offers a good product, there is no guaranty that Jet will find success in this market. Will Jet resort to selling tickets on the route for Euro 199 return to keep the airplanes filled? Time will tell. But, as I said above, Jet is primarily interested in moving pax between the US and India, so the BRU is not the key issue. In all, its an interesting situation to watch.

I will repeat my question.......can the Jet 773ERs do the route nonstop with a reasonable payload?

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 34):
Have you noticed the current fares? While BOM-EWR is a reasonable USD 1,100 range, the flights BOM-BRU and BRU-EWR are ridiculously expensive ... this might be an indication of how they are planning revenue management on this route

BRU-EWR can be found for reasonable fare levels......CO is very tight with its lower fare bucket inventories; book way ahead or at the last minute and you will have better luck on Tuesday, Wednesday or Saturday in both directions. Of course, the summer season is a nightmare, but thats another story.
 
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 34):
= Finally some sensible talk. I dont think people realize that the stop at BRU could very well have been some place else in Europe. I am sure BRU worked due to a combination of new Indo-Belgium ASA (5th freedom), political willingness, 9Ws risk taking, easy availability of slots @ BRU, some premium diamond traffic, etc. BRU is just a filler for now. While I cannot be sure, my guess is that 9W wanted to experiment with BRU before launching non-stops to US.

Could Jet be doing a similar thing to Etihad and later make BOM-EWR non stop and then do a BOM-BRU 'terminator' service?
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AKLDELNonstop
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 36):
BOM-BRU 'terminator' service?

I dont see that making too much of sense really. Because if that demand existed some or the other European carrier would have flown that route either nonstop or one stop. Although Sabena did fly BOM-BRU in the early 90s. I flew on that route once and remember the service to be quite good. But I do not know how that route performed for them.

To the rest:

I agree with the assessment that 9W isnt looking for pax at BRU as such. IMO they will probably create a mini hub there so that it is possible for DEL and BOM pax to travel to EWR, YYZ and whatever they bring on later. That might be a good move because it saves 9W from operating separate flights from DEL and BOM together to the same N. American destination and also helps it to avoid the BOM/DEL milk runs that AI is famous for.

What do you guys think?

Cheers
 
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
I will repeat my question.......can the Jet 773ERs do the route nonstop with a reasonable payload?

At MTOW, the 777-300ER can cover 7,880 nm, about 1,000 nm more than the Great Circle distance between BOM and EWR (6,784 nm). I can't imagine that winds aloft and the actual flight path would combine to eat up that 1,000 nm difference either way. The problem may be the length of the runway. A MTOW takeoff run is 11,000 ft, or 3.3 Km which happens to be exactly the length of EWR's longest runway (4L/22R). In BOM, one of the two runways (9/27) is 11,150 ft, or 3.5 Km, which ought to be enough.

Perhaps Jet believes that it cannot operate EWR - BOM non-stop with the load that it wants/needs to make a profit, and so chose to make both directions stop enroute in BRU.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 36):
Could Jet be doing a similar thing to Etihad and later make BOM-EWR non stop and then do a BOM-BRU 'terminator' service?

I believe that Ethiad had to make a stop enroute because it lacked the necessary aircraft to make the flight non-stop. Whether it also intended to test BRU as a terminator all along, or discovered "by accident" that BRU was worth its own flight is something I do not know the answer to.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 30):
AA expects SN to route their US bound passengers on AA metal, why would AA continue to codeshare with SN if SN is putting is US bound passengers on to 9W?

Because, overall, I don't believe that AA would be losing much traffic. Passengers who want to go to EWR don't fly AA (or SN) to JFK, they fly CO to EWR. As long as SN doesn't codeshare on domestic flights with CO (and I am not going to speculate it will happen, don't worry), JFK O&D and connecting traffic will still be on AA metal.
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Kevin777
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 32):
= Aaww ... thanks for not disappointing me. I clicked on this thread just to see if you had responded with something negative . Lets see if 9W "just cant work economically". I do think however that they will systematically withdraw BRU as a stopping point once more non-stop Indian flights start. Why bother with a small stagnant market anyway?

Abrelosojos.... wondering when you might join this thread!  Smile .... Yes let's see.. what I said was that with all the capacity increases to/from India recently, along with a lot more planned including IT, it won't work for any of them - 9W or any other. I reckon 9W stands a good chance here compared to others, but be realistic - if all or most of these proposed capacity increases to/from India come alive, no one will survive. Call me negative, don't care!  Wink

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 32):
Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 22):
certainly has an aura down there. But also its problems. 9W got its good reputation when it was the only standing up against AI and IC - now others are giving them a run for their money and reputation

= Isn't this very neo-centric? "Down there"? Having flown BOM-LHR, I can assure you that 9W is MILES ahead of any airline in Europe. They are not even in the same league. I mean, would I fly with charming hostesses on 9W or some bitter cold robot on many Euro carriers? Ok, BA-VS-KL-LX are exceptions to this rule.

What do you mean???... Down there? What's wrong with that? I said that my impression is that 9W has a very good reputation in India.. that's all..!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 34):
Have you noticed the current fares? While BOM-EWR is a reasonable USD 1,100 range

Reasonable? It's quite cheap actually..

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 34):
BOM-BRU and BRU-EWR are ridiculously expensive ... this might be an indication of how they are planning revenue management on this route.

Couldn't it just be that they haven't opened up the cheap booking classes yet or something?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
I dont know if EK is offering bagain fares on the route just yet.

They have done recently; something like 200 EUR including taxes as a promotion... crazy..!

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
Why are these fifth freedom flights difficult? Is it marketing? Is it passenger loyalty? Is national pride? Is it none of these things? I really dont know, but the fifth freedom operations can be very tricky and seem to be hit or miss........

Many reasons I reckon, including those you mention. 5th freedom is, largely, a thing for the past. A 5th freedom flight rarely has chances of attracting high-yield customers, leaving it with backpackers and students. Operationally it can be messy etc. The reason fifth freedom survived in Europe (intra-Europe) for so long time, was the regulated environment, giving fifth-freedom lots of volume, albeit not high-yield. I remember the old days when Varig offered cheap seats to London from CPH, and turned a decent profit on it, too, I guess. But with LCCs and a deregulated environment, the bread and butter for 5th freedom in Europe has been taken away. Of course it's not necessarily the same for longer 5th freedoms, but still - 5th freedom is tough.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 38):
Perhaps Jet believes that it cannot operate EWR - BOM non-stop with the load that it wants/needs to make a profit, and so chose to make both directions stop enroute in BRU.

Technically, could a reason be fuel expenses? Going down in BRU and refuelling does save a lot of fuel? Could this, along with maybe some added payload, compensate for the unfavorable things associated with stopping in Europe?

Kevin777  Smile
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mk777
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RE: Jet Airways Sked To BRU/EWR Uploaded

Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:03 pm

Well if only 9W offered DEL/BOM-BRU-IAD service, i am sure it would do quite well, why go to airports which are already saturated with many flights to and from India, EWR & JFK. Why not try hands on some other east coast airports??

I am hoping someone at 9W will be looking at IAD's potential. It currently has no non-stop service to India and only European carriers offer a 1 stop route, well QR starts service in June, so why not an Indian carrier???  Smile
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