ConcordeBoy
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Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:21 pm

Sunday, 3/18/07, 6:44pm Central.

Was spotting at MSY earlier yesterday evening.

An AA S80 was lined up with MSY's runway 19, and at 6:44pm it spooled up and began its takeoff roll. About 300ft into the departure, the aircraft powered-down to complete silence. It continued to roll for at least 1 times its fuselage length while silent, but then it spooled up to power and continued the takeoff. Its mains didn't lift off until right before the threshold "keys", but it did sustain a rather exciting climbout angle.

My questions in this; does anyone know:
  • what flight this is and where it was going?
  • what may have caused it to behave in this way?
  • whether the FAA, AA, or other airlines have protocol for this sort of occurence?

    ....my guess is that he might have gotten clearance later than expected, and having begun his roll-- went back to idle, only to be given clearance at that point. After losing about 500ft of runway, I thought for sure it would break and turn off, but instead it powered up continued the (long) roll; and shot out at a very strong angle (even for an MD80) climbout angle. I guess 6500ft is still more than enough for an S80 going to DFW/STL, though it would've been interesting if this was a flight on its way to ORD/LGA.

    Anyone?
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    LASoctoberB6
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:35 pm

    kinda makes me remember the time i was out spottin at LAS a few years ago when a Planet (<- was that the airline that bought 1983 National Airlines' logo?) S80 was cleared to go and it lined up, went into reverse, then full throttle and went all the way down the end of 25R then lifted off.....really strange....

    [Edited 2007-03-19 07:42:54]
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    HAL
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:37 pm

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
    ....my guess is that he might have gotten clearance later than expected, and having begun his roll-- went back to idle, only to be given clearance at that point.

    I wouldn't say 'never', but I really can't imagine any airline pilot spooling his engines up (and rolling) until the actual clearance came through. Not only is it illegal (rolling without clearance) but stupid - you eat up that precious real estate that now becomes useless.

    More likely I'd say that they caught something unfinished from the takeoff checklist (maybe checking flap/slat position, etc), then when satisfied, continued the takeoff. That's just a guess however, since nobody here was listening in to what happened in the cockpit.

    HAL
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    ConcordeBoy
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:53 pm

    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    rolling) until the actual clearance came through.

    ...talk to any JAL pilots lately?  Wink

    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    that precious real estate that now becomes useless.

    As I said earlier, I'm guessing he found 6500ft or so to be sufficient; though this is why I'd be interesting to see where that one was headed to.

    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    That's just a guess however, since nobody here was listening in to what happened in the cockpit.

    Indeed, REALLY wish I'd had a scanner....
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    AirTranTUS
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:06 pm

    This would be the flight. AA 500 to DFW.

    http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL500
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    TrijetsRMissed
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:13 pm

    Interesting story, probably nothing major. MD-80 take-offs are also thrilling. Last week I noticed that the AA MD-82 I was on had its main landing gear "bounce" off the ground as we rotated. The aircraft shuddered and vibrated for the next 3-4 seconds as we rocketed into the Tuscon sun.

    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    I wouldn't say 'never', but I really can't imagine any airline pilot spooling his engines up (and rolling) until the actual clearance came through.

    Remember the KLM nut job in the Tenerife disaster?

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 3):
    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    That's just a guess however, since nobody here was listening in to what happened in the cockpit.

    Indeed, REALLY wish I'd had a scanner....

    Or Ch.9 if you were a passenger on the flight.
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    SANFan
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:13 pm

    To answer at least one of your questions, Concorde', FlightAware shows, under MSY Departures for 3/18:
    AAL500 MD82 Dallas Fort Worth Int'l (KDFW) Sun 06:45PM CDT

    Sounds kind of like some massive electrical failure but I sure wouldn't think they'd continue the roll.....

    I will be interested if you are able to solve the mystery...

    bb
     
    Type-Rated
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:26 pm

    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    More likely I'd say that they caught something unfinished from the takeoff checklist (maybe checking flap/slat position, etc), then when satisfied, continued the takeoff. That's just a guess however, since nobody here was listening in to what happened in the cockpit.

    This is most likely what happened. They advanced the throttles for take off power and some warning indication (horn or light) that reminded the crew something wasn't set right. They stopped the take off and completed the missed checklist item and then continued.
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    LASoctoberB6
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:28 pm

    Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 5):
    Or Ch.9 if you were a passenger on the flight.

    if you were on UA
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    ConcordeBoy
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:39 pm

    Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 5):
    Or Ch.9 if you were a passenger on the flight.

    Isn't that only UA? ...an airline I have no intention of patronizing any time soon.

    Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
    Sounds kind of like some massive electrical failure

    How'd ya find that out?

    Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
    but I sure wouldn't think they'd continue the roll.

    My thoughts as well, especially after having lost a couple hundred feet of runway
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    FlyHoss
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:46 pm

    It's also possible that the Tower gave take off clearance, cancelled it (perhaps due to (changing) flow restrictions to DFW) and then recleared the flight for take off. I've seen this scenario happen several times before and it's happened to me once. In my case however, we rolled only about 10-15 feet as the engines had only begun to spool up when the clearance was cancelled.
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    ConcordeBoy
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:54 pm

    ...that raises another interesting protocol issue:
    how much time does the tower have to revoke clearance? Until the aircraft in question calls out V1?
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    FlyHoss
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:25 am

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
    ...that raises another interesting protocol issue:
    how much time does the tower have to revoke clearance? Until the aircraft in question calls out V1?

    Very good question, ConcordeBoy. V1 would be a good criteria. I witnessed a cancelled take off clearance last week (Friday, March 16) at IAH. The Tower had cleared a USX CRJ 900 for take off on 15L and the aircraft began to roll, but then the take off clearance was cancelled. The Tower controller apparently couldn't see the aircraft (due to patchy fog) and then added something like, "if you can" (still stop). The controller further explained the clearance cancellation was due to an aircraft executing the missed approach procedure for runway 27, thereby overflying runway 15L. As the CRJ 900 had just started to roll, they chose to stop.
    A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
     
    SANFan
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:42 am

    Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
    Sounds kind of like some massive electrical failure but I sure wouldn't think they'd continue the roll.....

    I know that wasn't the case here but your description of the events reminded me of something very similar that happened to me in my SUV a few years ago. Driving along, all of a sudden and without warning, the engine just quit for a few seconds (seemed like every system in the car was dead) then returned to normal without incident! Needless to say, I was in shock for a few minutes. Never happened again and there actually was a recall later to fix the "known problem".

    But as I said, if something like that happened on jet full of pax, I doubt the pilot would simply continue the takeoff...

    bb
     
    graphic
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:02 am

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
    ...that raises another interesting protocol issue:
    how much time does the tower have to revoke clearance? Until the aircraft in question calls out V1?

    Probably not that long even. V1 as I understand it is "point of no return," however stopping an airliner I would assume would be a precarious endeavor well before V1 is reached. If a controller revokes clearance and the pilot calls back "unable" there's nothing anyone can do.
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    Tom in NO
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:18 am

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
    how much time does the tower have to revoke clearance? Until the aircraft in question calls out V1?

    Of course, remembering here that the pilot does not inform the tower when he reaches V1. Good question, though.

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
    Was spotting at MSY earlier yesterday evening.
    An AA S80 was lined up with MSY's runway 19,

    Been visiting the infamous bookstore, have we ?  wink 

    Tom at MSY
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    ConcordeBoy
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:17 am

    Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 15):

    Been visiting the infamous bookstore, have we ?

    No
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    GerbenYYZ
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:33 am

    Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 5):
    Remember the KLM nut job in the Tenerife disaster?

    Clearly there were many factors involved in that accident and have been extensively discussed many times...
     
    LASoctoberB6
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:10 am

    Quoting Graphic (Reply 14):
    V1 as I understand it is "point of no return," however stopping an airliner I would assume would be a precarious endeavor well before V1 is reached.

    i thought that once an airliner reached V1, it was still safe to fly with one engine and return or something like that....
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    ConcordeBoy
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:32 am

    Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 18):
    i thought that once an airliner reached V1, it was still safe to fly with one engine and return or something like that....

    V1 is the decision velocity.
    Before that point, the pilots may decide whether or not to abort or continue a takeoff.
    After that point, the decision is made for them-- it is safer to continue the takeoff.
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    graphic
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:34 am

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 19):
    After that point, the decision is made for them-- it is safer to continue the takeoff.

    In most cases. Sometime either last year or the year before there was a Midwest MD-80 taking off from BOS that had to stop after V1 as the jackscrew in the horizontal stabilizer had jammed and the aircraft couldn't rotate.
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    ConcordeBoy
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:07 am

    ...not exactly like they had any other way to go there now did they  Yeah sure
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    albird87
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:16 am

    Did you hear a bang at all with the initial spool up??
    I have been on a 727 and it was in a cross wind and one of the engines wasnt getting enough air due to the cross wind and made a bang. The pilots spooled down and then saw everything was ok and then continued the takeoff roll.
    This is caused due to a compressor overload as the engine is powering up but not enough air getting to the enigne
     
    TrijetsRMissed
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:53 am

    Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 8):
    Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 5):
    Or Ch.9 if you were a passenger on the flight.

    if you were on UA



    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 9):
    Isn't that only UA?

    I thought that went without saying, my bad.

    Quoting GerbenYYZ (Reply 17):
    Clearly there were many factors involved in that accident and have been extensively discussed many times...

    Yes... and clearly taking off without propper clearance was the principle factor, but that's a whole other discussion. The point is, in response to HAL, it does happen.

    Quoting Graphic (Reply 20):
    n most cases. Sometime either last year or the year before there was a Midwest MD-80 taking off from BOS that had to stop after V1 as the jackscrew in the horizontal stabilizer had jammed and the aircraft couldn't rotate.

    Is this true? I don't remember hearing about that but that could have been a repeat of AS 261 had they not aborted. Pretty scary.
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    wjcandee
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:48 am

    This could also have been a sound illusion. If you're watching from a distance, it's conceivable that the only thing that happened was you didn't hear the jet blast for a moment while the aircraft was moving, and it seemed as if the engines had both spooled down. That they kept on going with no other indicia of a problem other than both engines being cut for a second and then seemingly back at full could have something to do with the relative position of the aircraft and surfaces that were reflecting its noise pattern to you.
     
    ConcordeBoy
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:24 am

    Quoting Albird87 (Reply 22):
    Did you hear a bang at all with the initial spool up??

    no

    Quoting Albird87 (Reply 22):
    This is caused due to a compressor overload as the engine is powering up but not enough air getting to the enigne

    you don't KNOW engine surges until you experience on on Concorde...  Wink

    Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 24):
    This could also have been a sound illusion.

    It was no illusion, the aircraft ceased acceleration for several hundred feet before powering back up
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    fxramper
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:45 am

    Maybe they missed a gear.  duck   yes 
     
    willyj
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    RE: Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY

    Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:27 pm

    Quoting Albird87 (Reply 22):
    I have been on a 727 and it was in a cross wind and one of the engines wasnt getting enough air due to the cross wind and made a bang.

    Same thing happened to me in 1999 on a DL shuttle flight LGA-DCA. We aborted the take off and went back to the Marine Air Terminal. After about 15 minutes we were cleared to go.

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